ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 2

I was reading this essay about the "descent into the underworld", it's pretty long but very accurate and there's an excerpt where it is stated that the Godess is phisically struck by her dark side

"Upon entering the underworld, judgment is passed against Inanna (the inevitable judgment of the external world against each of us), wrath and guilt are hurled at her, and she is physically struck by her dark side."

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Kylo believing he did it when he really didn't is the piece that makes my first paragraph make sense. That's the way it would have to be, which sort of goes back to winter!Kylo. More of a sleeper soldier, but convinced himself that he was right, that the Jedi need to be potentially purged as a way to cope with what he believed he did! That really makes Han's death all the more tragic, especially if he experienced another spell when the light on Starkiller went out right before he killed Han. I guess this is what you guys have meant with Manchurian Kylo? It works if Kylo is only under this influence sometimes rather than all the time.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I couldn't post during the day, so just going back to the ideas of brainwashed/controlled/under influence!Kylo, Han's killing and the test it represented is partly what makes me dismiss them. I see no point in creating a "test" scenario unless the character in question is supposed to make an actual choice, out of their own free will. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the test? We're going to find out more about Kylo for sure, but I think that, with Han's murder in TFA, what you see is what you get. We have a setup where Snoke tells Kylo that his father will be his big test, which basically translates to "you'll have to kill your father". It turns out to be much harder emotionally for Kylo, but I think that, starting from "I know what I have to do" dialogue, there's an unbroken continuity of intent on Kylo's part and he is determined to carry it through. He says that he wants to be free of his pain and that he know what he must do, and asks his father to help him, then goes through with the killing and thanks Han for helping him. If that "thank you" wasn't there I might think otherwise, but I don't think it allows room for "Kylo is overcome by an evil influence at the last moment" type of scenario.

BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito Speaking to my own interpretation, it was the interrogation scene - particularly if the force bond theory holds water. They see each other's fears, things that nobody else knows. But then Daisy also said that cryptic thing about them finding the force together when she closed her eyes at the cliff edge. And because he can be considered the shadow and animus, defeating his mind probe and scarring him would be considered overcoming her 'trials'.



If we look at this model, crossing the threshold is Rey entering the forest of Takodana. She leaves her friends and mentor behind, she's received the saber but refused the call and ran away from it. And she's confronted by the shadow/animus, who recognizes her as important too.

I think 'confronting the powerless father' relates to Luke, the start of episode VIII. And no, obviously he is not her father in a literal sense. But she has gone to him with some expectation - Leia has an expectation, too, that Luke can return and help them in the fight. But some posters here have speculated that Luke is not going to be particularly thrilled to see Rey, or have the answers she's looking for. I guess we'll see.

@BastilaBey

may I translate some parts of your meta for fromitalywithreylo? let me know

@BastilaBey I agree that Powerless Father is Luke.

I also want to add that Integration with the Shadow aka Wedding the Animus is a huge deal in Heroine Journey and that Integration may be literal in ST, as in Integration of Dark and Light, rather than one defeating/destroying another.

I also think that it is not a coincidence that Rey is the only character at Maz that's eating and eating a fruit (as in forbidden fruit) at the moment when Maz talks about the Dark Side:



And than we get Rey and Kylo tempting each not just as Dark and Light but as attractive people, so when he offers to teach her the ways of the Force, which is overruling Snoke's order, it's a temptation to him as much as it's to her, so I'd say that the offer (since it's to teach the Force, not DS) is his moment of



and hers is



The scarring is biting the apple. It was unnecessary from defense POV - he was disarmed already and scar itself doesn't put out of comission but could only rile up - so she wanted revenge, to make him less desirable, in short, it was very personal and didn't fall into "Jedi uses the Force only for knowledge and defense".

@Maria Antonietta You can translate anything as along as you tag the original and give proper credit to the author (which is tagging and naming the author). You can also translate titles of podcasts and videos and even write transcripts or summary in Italian with proper tagging of the originals.

I am amazed at the depth of insightfulness and your knowledge of mythology and history. Your opinions and the different metas you have written are so very interesting to read  They are so much more nuanced than the other sites where all the talk is she's Luke's daughter or who's going to kill Kylo. I don't have the knowledge, and probably not the nerve to do more than post my appreciation of your research and work, but I find it delightful to read. Keep up the good work for folks like me who are suffering during this movie drought whilst waiting for episode VIII.  Now, I believe I'm off to rewatch some of the podcasts. The Star Wars Connection folks display their love of the subject matter and they're good humor is totally infectious.  I just read back over what I wrote and I sound like such a fan girl.  I'm way too old to be one.

reenydet wrote:I am amazed at the depth of insightfulness and your knowledge of mythology and history. Your opinions and the different metas you have written are so very interesting to read  They are so much more nuanced than the other sites where all the talk is she's Luke's daughter or who's going to kill Kylo. I don't have the knowledge, and probably not the nerve to do more than post my appreciation of your research and work, but I find it delightful to read. Keep up the good work for folks like me who are suffering during this movie drought whilst waiting for episode VIII.  Now, I believe I'm off to rewatch some of the podcasts. The Star Wars Connection folks display their love of the subject matter and they're good humor is totally infectious.  I just read back over what I wrote and I sound like such a fan girl.  I'm way too old to be one.

@reenydet

many of us learned from others and started to use that new knowledge to theorize where ST is going. Trust me, everyone began like you by discovering new things. I didn't know much or anything about Eastern Phylosophy, what Yin and Yang really are, all phases of Monomyth, that there's different Monomyth for Hero and Heroine, fairytale dynamics, etc. But Reylo community doens't shy away from discussing it, in fact, the fandom revels in exploring different themes, cultural influences, etc, so I got inspired to learn few things on my own and apply what I've learned from others. That's why this community is so different.

reenydet wrote:I am amazed at the depth of insightfulness and your knowledge of mythology and history. Your opinions and the different metas you have written are so very interesting to read  They are so much more nuanced than the other sites where all the talk is she's Luke's daughter or who's going to kill Kylo. I don't have the knowledge, and probably not the nerve to do more than post my appreciation of your research and work, but I find it delightful to read. Keep up the good work for folks like me who are suffering during this movie drought whilst waiting for episode VIII.  Now, I believe I'm off to rewatch some of the podcasts. The Star Wars Connection folks display their love of the subject matter and they're good humor is totally infectious.  I just read back over what I wrote and I sound like such a fan girl.  I'm way too old to be one.

@reenydet

I was so ignorant then reylo happened and look now, we are deep in archetipes and monomyths

Maria Antonietta wrote:

reenydet wrote:I am amazed at the depth of insightfulness and your knowledge of mythology and history. Your opinions and the different metas you have written are so very interesting to read  They are so much more nuanced than the other sites where all the talk is she's Luke's daughter or who's going to kill Kylo. I don't have the knowledge, and probably not the nerve to do more than post my appreciation of your research and work, but I find it delightful to read. Keep up the good work for folks like me who are suffering during this movie drought whilst waiting for episode VIII.  Now, I believe I'm off to rewatch some of the podcasts. The Star Wars Connection folks display their love of the subject matter and they're good humor is totally infectious.  I just read back over what I wrote and I sound like such a fan girl.  I'm way too old to be one.

@reenydet

I was so ignorant then reylo happened and look now, we are deep in archetipes and monomyths

@Maria Antonietta

Explains me to a T. Ignorant = Me December 2015 Deep in archetypes and monomyths = Me Aug 2016

Then I will take solace in the fact that there's hope for me yet. Down the road, maybe I'll work up the courage to express some of my thoughts. i'm a retired teacher, so I'm not totally illiterate. But, yes, I'm old. Bear with me.

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Kylo believing he did it when he really didn't is the piece that makes my first paragraph make sense. That's the way it would have to be, which sort of goes back to winter!Kylo. More of a sleeper soldier, but convinced himself that he was right, that the Jedi need to be potentially purged as a way to cope with what he believed he did! That really makes Han's death all the more tragic, especially if he experienced another spell when the light on Starkiller went out right before he killed Han. I guess this is what you guys have meant with Manchurian Kylo? It works if Kylo is only under this influence sometimes rather than all the time.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I couldn't post during the day, so just going back to the ideas of brainwashed/controlled/under influence!Kylo, Han's killing and the test it represented is partly what makes me dismiss them. I see no point in creating a "test" scenario unless the character in question is supposed to make an actual choice, out of their own free will. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the test? We're going to find out more about Kylo for sure, but I think that, with Han's murder in TFA, what you see is what you get. We have a setup where Snoke tells Kylo that his father will be his big test, which basically translates to "you'll have to kill your father". It turns out to be much harder emotionally for Kylo, but I think that, starting from "I know what I have to do" dialogue, there's an unbroken continuity of intent on Kylo's part and he is determined to carry it through. He says that he wants to be free of his pain and that he know what he must do, and asks his father to help him, then goes through with the killing and thanks Han for helping him. If that "thank you" wasn't there I might think otherwise, but I don't think it allows room for "Kylo is overcome by an evil influence at the last moment" type of scenario.

@Saracene
Indeed, you're right. Narratively it wouldn't have been foreshadowed like that at all if it was supposed to be something more "shocking" (and thus more ambiguous). The "test" deal makes it clearly premeditated. But yeah, there are so many reasons I dislike the "brainwashing" theory. I think it's just because I'm not a fan of its use in fiction in general. Maybe it does come down to having different definitions of the term, but it's not the story I would rather see for Kylo given the choice. I'm more interested in his future actions than his past ones, and while I don't think the massacre went down just like Anakin and the Jedi Order, I still feel as though Kylo's role in the past has to tread a fine line between making him sympathetic and making him pathetic. Brainwashing (to me) is the latter, and it's just not the story I want right now. There are many more interesting things they could do with the character's backstory than that. Perhaps I tend to be less apologetic toward him as well, because I do think we should be preparing ourselves for the chance that, while Kylo may not have outright Anakin'd Luke's other students, something bad happened that night, something Kylo was involved in.

reenydet wrote:Then I will take solace in the fact that there's hope for me yet. Down the road, maybe I'll work up the courage to express some of my thoughts. i'm a retired teacher, so I'm not totally illiterate. But, yes, I'm old. Bear with me.

@reenydet

Do not worry about age here. There are more than few of us here who watched Original Trilogy in theaters.
And welcome!

Maria Antonietta wrote:

reenydet wrote:I am amazed at the depth of insightfulness and your knowledge of mythology and history. Your opinions and the different metas you have written are so very interesting to read  They are so much more nuanced than the other sites where all the talk is she's Luke's daughter or who's going to kill Kylo. I don't have the knowledge, and probably not the nerve to do more than post my appreciation of your research and work, but I find it delightful to read. Keep up the good work for folks like me who are suffering during this movie drought whilst waiting for episode VIII.  Now, I believe I'm off to rewatch some of the podcasts. The Star Wars Connection folks display their love of the subject matter and they're good humor is totally infectious.  I just read back over what I wrote and I sound like such a fan girl.  I'm way too old to be one.

@reenydet

I was so ignorant then reylo happened and look now, we are deep in archetipes and monomyths

@Maria Antonietta

Exactly! Reylo has also broadened my knowledge of so many diverse subjects.

Really, this pairing and what they currently represent and could represent in the future is what makes this story. I know that not all these amazing theories will materialize into more, but I'm sure some will, in some capacity. I find it hard to believe LF would make this dynamic (and story potential ) between Rey and Kylo "by accident."

Also, with Rian Johnson involved (and the influences he's discussed) and what MSW said about Episode VIII being more nuanced,  I'm even more confident we're getting a more psychological, original and compelling story than good Skywalker (Solo) vs. evil Skywalker (Solo).

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Kylo believing he did it when he really didn't is the piece that makes my first paragraph make sense. That's the way it would have to be, which sort of goes back to winter!Kylo. More of a sleeper soldier, but convinced himself that he was right, that the Jedi need to be potentially purged as a way to cope with what he believed he did! That really makes Han's death all the more tragic, especially if he experienced another spell when the light on Starkiller went out right before he killed Han. I guess this is what you guys have meant with Manchurian Kylo? It works if Kylo is only under this influence sometimes rather than all the time.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I couldn't post during the day, so just going back to the ideas of brainwashed/controlled/under influence!Kylo, Han's killing and the test it represented is partly what makes me dismiss them. I see no point in creating a "test" scenario unless the character in question is supposed to make an actual choice, out of their own free will. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the test? We're going to find out more about Kylo for sure, but I think that, with Han's murder in TFA, what you see is what you get. We have a setup where Snoke tells Kylo that his father will be his big test, which basically translates to "you'll have to kill your father". It turns out to be much harder emotionally for Kylo, but I think that, starting from "I know what I have to do" dialogue, there's an unbroken continuity of intent on Kylo's part and he is determined to carry it through. He says that he wants to be free of his pain and that he know what he must do, and asks his father to help him, then goes through with the killing and thanks Han for helping him. If that "thank you" wasn't there I might think otherwise, but I don't think it allows room for "Kylo is overcome by an evil influence at the last moment" type of scenario.

@Saracene

When he killed Han, that did appear to be premeditated, and probably some test that Snoke had set for him a long time ago.

I think that once the story around Ben Solo's fall comes out (where I strongly suspect that there were outside forces of some kind at play), we'll see Han's death as a contrast to the initial fall, and it will also illustrate how far Ben/Kylo has fallen.

I could be wrong, but with the signals that we've gotten from foreshadowing, things that Pablo has said about choices, etc, the story that I think we're getting is of someone who was a victim to some extent, which put Ben in a bad position, but then he made some terrible choices to continue down that path.

Do not worry about age here. There are more than few of us here who watched Original Trilogy in theaters.
And welcome![/quote]
@Darth_Awakened

Thnx,  

reenydet wrote:Do not worry about age here. There are more than few of us here who watched Original Trilogy in theaters.
And welcome!

@Darth_Awakened

Thnx,  [/quote]
@reenydet

Raises hand!!!!

Yep, many of us here are 40+, myself included.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Kylo believing he did it when he really didn't is the piece that makes my first paragraph make sense. That's the way it would have to be, which sort of goes back to winter!Kylo. More of a sleeper soldier, but convinced himself that he was right, that the Jedi need to be potentially purged as a way to cope with what he believed he did! That really makes Han's death all the more tragic, especially if he experienced another spell when the light on Starkiller went out right before he killed Han. I guess this is what you guys have meant with Manchurian Kylo? It works if Kylo is only under this influence sometimes rather than all the time.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I couldn't post during the day, so just going back to the ideas of brainwashed/controlled/under influence!Kylo, Han's killing and the test it represented is partly what makes me dismiss them. I see no point in creating a "test" scenario unless the character in question is supposed to make an actual choice, out of their own free will. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the test? We're going to find out more about Kylo for sure, but I think that, with Han's murder in TFA, what you see is what you get. We have a setup where Snoke tells Kylo that his father will be his big test, which basically translates to "you'll have to kill your father". It turns out to be much harder emotionally for Kylo, but I think that, starting from "I know what I have to do" dialogue, there's an unbroken continuity of intent on Kylo's part and he is determined to carry it through. He says that he wants to be free of his pain and that he know what he must do, and asks his father to help him, then goes through with the killing and thanks Han for helping him. If that "thank you" wasn't there I might think otherwise, but I don't think it allows room for "Kylo is overcome by an evil influence at the last moment" type of scenario.

@Saracene
Indeed, you're right. Narratively it wouldn't have been foreshadowed like that at all if it was supposed to be something more "shocking" (and thus more ambiguous). The "test" deal makes it clearly premeditated. But yeah, there are so many reasons I dislike the "brainwashing" theory. I think it's just because I'm not a fan of its use in fiction in general. Maybe it does come down to having different definitions of the term, but it's not the story I would rather see for Kylo given the choice. I'm more interested in his future actions than his past ones, and while I don't think the massacre went down just like Anakin and the Jedi Order, I still feel as though Kylo's role in the past has to tread a fine line between making him sympathetic and making him pathetic. Brainwashing (to me) is the latter, and it's just not the story I want right now. There are many more interesting things they could do with the character's backstory than that. Perhaps I tend to be less apologetic toward him as well, because I do think we should be preparing ourselves for the chance that, while Kylo may not have outright Anakin'd Luke's other students, something bad happened that night, something Kylo was involved in.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I understand all this, but... it's really not about being a Kylo apologist. It's more about expecting the plot to provide an explanation to the puzzling aspects of the character.

Nobody framed Kylo for ordering the slaughter of the village and for killing Han - these are things we all saw him do, before our very eyes. Those evil deeds you can't just make vague excuses for or pretend they didn't really happen, nor do I want to minimise their significance. In fact, the reason I argue for the things that I often argue for is that I see the patricide especially as a huge deal, narratively speaking. It isn't an "ordinary" crime for an "ordinary" redemption arc; it's the kind of sin that even forgiving religions tend to see as something that damns a soul irrevocably. And yet Kylo looked as miserable about doing it as if he were about to commit involuntary suicide. He didn't simply regret it afterwards; he was miserable beforehand as well. The whole thing is so baffling that it's no wonder people are looking for possible explanations.

I know that many here think that some of us are overcomplicating and overanalysing Kylo, and that his redemption arc will probably be a lot more simple than that, but the fact is - there's nothing simple about Kylo's character so far. It's contrary and puzzling and yes, mysterious and ambiguous as well. One might even argue it's too mysterious and ambiguous for the fairytale he inhabits - if there are no clear plot reasons for Kylo's complexity, then he's basically one weird hyper-realistically complex character among a bunch of simplified fairytale characters.

The film flags Kylo as someone who doesn't belong on the Dark Side - someone who "can't deny the truth that is (his) family" (and by extension, the truth that is himself). Someone who's denying the "light" in him that just refuses to go away (what's that, like the opposite of original sin? innate goodness? compassion, kindness, humanity, and all that? and that's the heart of this very mystery, because how on earth can your evil villain who does undeniably terrible things before our very eyes be "innately good"?).

The reason why I'm expecting a "twist" of some kind is not because I desperately need a twist in this story, ESB-style, but because there needs to be some kind of an explanation to the paradox that is Kylo Ren.

He can never be "just" a redeemed villain (even a complex one) who did bad things, realised what he has done, and regretted his former deeds, because from the looks of it, he's hating himself already. The "light" in him that's making him such an angsty mess of a villain is presumably comparable to that "innate goodness", and such an innate goodness presumably comes with a conscience too. He's actively going against that "light" for some reason, though he's making himself visibly miserable in the process. He isn't just regretting his deeds after the fact; he's concurrently living in miserable self-denial, denying half of himself, making himself clearly unhappy in the process, for some perverse reason. One might assume he has to be insane to do that.

I feel like they do have to explain somehow how this innately "there-is-persistent-light-in-him" person turned into Kylo Ren, murderous and unhappy. If the backstory is that he really did kill padawans for (insert some uncomplicatedly selfish Dark Side motive X), then that doesn't really do anything to explain Kylo Ren as he is now. Then something else will have to explain how Ben became Kylo. Or rather, why Ben is trying to be Kylo but not really succeeding. Being bad shouldn't have to be that hard.

To think of it in simple terms:

We have a character who feels a pull to the light - and I assume we can take "light" as a simplistic term for good things like the compassion he canonically feels.

Yet the same character commits crimes that are presented, in simplistic terms, as evil, and decidedly lacking in compassion.

Something is making him shut out the "light" and the compassion in him. In other words, something is making him shut out a pretty huge part of his basic personality. And that's "tearing him apart", and he's aware of that conflict.

I don't care if it turns out to be a mental illness metaphor or something completely different, but that "something" does need to be explained, IMO. Because if someone is capable of shutting out compassion simply for selfish reasons, then that person isn't innately compassionate in the first place. Simply put, a "good" person can't choose to be "not good" when it suits their purely selfish needs. If something is a major part of what makes the character who he is - like Kylo's light/compassion - then it can't be just turned on and off without a narrative justification.

@ISeeAnIsland- I see the situation a lot like you do. I don't think Kylo is brainwashed. I don't think he's fully innocent anymore. I think he knows what he's doing, including killing Han, but I think his fall (and why he continues to make terrible choices) will be much more nuanced than just him just wanting to be like Vader.

I think Ben was initially a victim (a target like JJ said). I think he was manipulated and his backstory will likely be portrayed in a sympathetic light in Episode VIII. However,  I think his anger and resentment likely played a role in him starting down a bad path, making bad choices. He seems to think he's doing the right thing. It really strikes me that he didn't want to kill Han, but he seemed to think he had to in order to accomplish his goal, whatever it is. Also,  I don't think Kylo would be as upset as he clearly was if  killing Han was solely so he could become more powerful for power's sake.

I think his initial motivation for starting on his current path will be sympathetic, but it's different now. I'm really curious about how the jedi temple massacre happened because I think it was pivotal and something climatic may have proceeded it, like the fellow padawans' reaction to the Vader reveal or some other occurence.

I think Kylo needs to come to terms with his choices and realize that he is not going down the right path. Once he's able to do this, he can begin making the right choices.

@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it and then it's almost impossible to get out.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side and WANTING to be immersed (unlike the other Skywalkers, who fought it), still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something that's just about him essentially being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.

ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side, still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something about him essentially just being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.

@ZioRen

He definitely doesn't belong on the dark side. He struggles terribly and he's in constant turmoil.

He needs to come to terms with his legacy of both the light and dark (the true nature of the Force and the truth that is his family). That's another reason why I see him being redeemed because the alternative would be so anti-Star Wars and miserable, it would be terrible.

Kessel89 wrote:@ISeeAnIsland- I see the situation a lot like you do. I don't think Kylo is brainwashed. I don't think he's fully innocent anymore. I think he knows what he's doing, including killing Han, but I think his fall (and why he continues to make terrible choices) will be much more nuanced than just him just wanting to be like Vader.

I think Ben was initially a victim (a target like JJ said). I think he was manipulated and his backstory will likely be portrayed in a sympathetic light in Episode VIII. However,  I think his anger and resentment likely played a role in him starting down a bad path, making bad choices. He seems to think he's doing the right thing. It really strikes me that he didn't want to kill Han, but he seemed to think he had to in order to accomplish his goal, whatever it is. Also,  I don't think Kylo would be as upset as he clearly was if  killing Han was solely so he could become more powerful for power's sake.

I think his initial motivation for starting on his current path will be sympathetic, but it's different now. I'm really curious about how the jedi temple massacre happened because I think it was pivotal and something climatic may have proceeded it, like the fellow padawans' reaction to the Vader reveal or some other occurrence.

I think Kylo needs to come to terms with his choices and realize that he is not going down the right path. Once he's able to do this, he can begin making the right choices.

@Kessel89

Exactly. And on the bolded, if we get any glimpse of a pre-fall Ben Solo, I fully expect him to have a temper/be prone to fits, and I also expect there to be a bit of that sense of entitlement/arrogance that we saw glimpses of. Those traits don't make him a "bad" person, but they could have made him vulnerable to Snoke's manipulations and control....contributing to leading him where he ended up.

ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it and then it's almost impossible to get out.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side and WANTING to be immersed (unlike the other Skywalkers, who fought it), still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something that's just about him essentially being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.

@ZioRen

What I think is interesting is that unlike guys like Darth Maul or Palpatine who clearly LOVED being in the Dark Side, Vader... not so much. It's not that he hated it either, but he was mostly indifferent about it. I mean, even if Padmé hadn't died in childbirth/of love/whatever the living heck that was, Palpatine would have had her killed anyway since she was pretty much the only thing that kept Anakin from being the perfect puppet. Anakin turned to the Dark Side out of love for Padmé, and to quote George Lucas, "he signed a contract with the devil, and lost". So the only option left to him was to be Palpatine's puppet, and in order to cope, he became indifferent to it all.

Edit: Weird to say, but when Vader threw Palpatine down the Ridiculously-Long-Chasm, I always had a feeling he did it mostly to save Padmé's Baby more than his Son. Sorry for this, it makes sense to me XD

Kylo, on the other hand... he still had his parents. He falls in love with Rey. Just like with Anakin, attachments are The-Thing that keep him from going full Dark. Snoke tried to have him kill his father in order to break that, but it failed. And with the theory that he might have warned his mother about SKB blowing up the Illeenium system, Snoke is not going to like it.

Kessel89 wrote:

ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side, still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something about him essentially just being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.

@ZioRen

He definitely doesn't belong on the dark side. He struggles terribly and he's in constant turmoil.

He needs to come to terms with his legacy of both the light and dark (the true nature of the Force and the truth that is his family). That's another reason why I see him being redeemed because the alternative would be so anti-Star Wars and miserable, it would be terrible.

@Kessel89

Oh it's so incredibly anti-Star Wars that I can't help but side-eye Star Wars "super fans" who want the story to end that way. Especially since it's also the worst possible ending for the OT characters they love so much. So...what? Han Solo died just so Kylo could be evil and Rey could be angry? His last act being one of love towards his son meant nothing? Leia gets to be even more miserable? Luke too? Where is the triumph in that ending?

The Prequel Trilogy ended on an unhappy note only because we already knew how the story would eventually turn out. Star Wars is a heroic space opera, not a gritty realism sci-fi flick. I don't imagine that Disney in particular would be willing to take away that triumphant aspect of Star Wars.

ZioRen wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:

ZioRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

I can say nothing but that I agree with you. It's also worth it to note that falling to and remaining in the Dark Side is supposed to be easy. That's the point of it being so seductive; you have to fight to not let yourself fall into it.

And yet here's Kylo, after all these years immersed in the Dark Side, still fighting the call to the light. That says a lot about his character. He doesn't belong on the Dark Side, is unhappy, is being eaten alive by it. So why is he so desperate to remain there? There has to be an answer, and something about him essentially just being a selfish douche doesn't quite work with that portrayal.

@ZioRen

He definitely doesn't belong on the dark side. He struggles terribly and he's in constant turmoil.

He needs to come to terms with his legacy of both the light and dark (the true nature of the Force and the truth that is his family). That's another reason why I see him being redeemed because the alternative would be so anti-Star Wars and miserable, it would be terrible.

@Kessel89

Oh it's so incredibly anti-Star Wars that I can't help but side-eye Star Wars "super fans" who want the story to end that way. Especially since it's also the worst possible ending for the OT characters they love so much. So...what? Han Solo died just so Kylo could be evil and Rey could be angry? His last act being one of love towards his son meant nothing? Leia gets to be even more miserable? Luke too? Where is the triumph in that ending?

The Prequel Trilogy ended on an unhappy note only because we already knew how the story would eventually turn out. Star Wars is a heroic space opera, not a gritty realism sci-fi flick. I don't imagine that Disney in particular would be willing to take away that triumphant aspect of Star Wars.

@ZioRen

This, a thousand times. Where is the 'heroic victory' in Rey and Luke shrugging their shoulders, saying that there's nothing more they can do to save the son of Han and Leia, and putting him down like a dog? That is not Star Wars.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Kylo believing he did it when he really didn't is the piece that makes my first paragraph make sense. That's the way it would have to be, which sort of goes back to winter!Kylo. More of a sleeper soldier, but convinced himself that he was right, that the Jedi need to be potentially purged as a way to cope with what he believed he did! That really makes Han's death all the more tragic, especially if he experienced another spell when the light on Starkiller went out right before he killed Han. I guess this is what you guys have meant with Manchurian Kylo? It works if Kylo is only under this influence sometimes rather than all the time.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I couldn't post during the day, so just going back to the ideas of brainwashed/controlled/under influence!Kylo, Han's killing and the test it represented is partly what makes me dismiss them. I see no point in creating a "test" scenario unless the character in question is supposed to make an actual choice, out of their own free will. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the test? We're going to find out more about Kylo for sure, but I think that, with Han's murder in TFA, what you see is what you get. We have a setup where Snoke tells Kylo that his father will be his big test, which basically translates to "you'll have to kill your father". It turns out to be much harder emotionally for Kylo, but I think that, starting from "I know what I have to do" dialogue, there's an unbroken continuity of intent on Kylo's part and he is determined to carry it through. He says that he wants to be free of his pain and that he know what he must do, and asks his father to help him, then goes through with the killing and thanks Han for helping him. If that "thank you" wasn't there I might think otherwise, but I don't think it allows room for "Kylo is overcome by an evil influence at the last moment" type of scenario.

@Saracene
Indeed, you're right. Narratively it wouldn't have been foreshadowed like that at all if it was supposed to be something more "shocking" (and thus more ambiguous). The "test" deal makes it clearly premeditated. But yeah, there are so many reasons I dislike the "brainwashing" theory. I think it's just because I'm not a fan of its use in fiction in general. Maybe it does come down to having different definitions of the term, but it's not the story I would rather see for Kylo given the choice. I'm more interested in his future actions than his past ones, and while I don't think the massacre went down just like Anakin and the Jedi Order, I still feel as though Kylo's role in the past has to tread a fine line between making him sympathetic and making him pathetic. Brainwashing (to me) is the latter, and it's just not the story I want right now. There are many more interesting things they could do with the character's backstory than that. Perhaps I tend to be less apologetic toward him as well, because I do think we should be preparing ourselves for the chance that, while Kylo may not have outright Anakin'd Luke's other students, something bad happened that night, something Kylo was involved in.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I understand all this, but... it's really not about being a Kylo apologist. It's more about expecting the plot to provide an explanation to the puzzling aspects of the character.

Nobody framed Kylo for ordering the slaughter of the village and for killing Han - these are things we all saw him do, before our very eyes. Those evil deeds you can't just make vague excuses for or pretend they didn't really happen, nor do I want to minimise their significance. In fact, the reason I argue for the things that I often argue for is that I see the patricide especially as a huge deal, narratively speaking. It isn't an "ordinary" crime for an "ordinary" redemption arc; it's the kind of sin that even forgiving religions tend to see as something that damns a soul irrevocably. And yet Kylo looked as miserable about doing it as if he were about to commit involuntary suicide. He didn't simply regret it afterwards; he was miserable beforehand as well. The whole thing is so baffling that it's no wonder people are looking for possible explanations.

I know that many here think that some of us are overcomplicating and overanalysing Kylo, and that his redemption arc will probably be a lot more simple than that, but the fact is - there's nothing simple about Kylo's character so far. It's contrary and puzzling and yes, mysterious and ambiguous as well. One might even argue it's too mysterious and ambiguous for the fairytale he inhabits - if there are no clear plot reasons for Kylo's complexity, then he's basically one weird hyper-realistically complex character among a bunch of simplified fairytale characters.

The film flags Kylo as someone who doesn't belong on the Dark Side - someone who "can't deny the truth that is (his) family" (and by extension, the truth that is himself). Someone who's denying the "light" in him that just refuses to go away (what's that, like the opposite of original sin? innate goodness? compassion, kindness, humanity, and all that? and that's the heart of this very mystery, because how on earth can your evil villain who does undeniably terrible things before our very eyes be "innately good"?).

The reason why I'm expecting a "twist" of some kind is not because I desperately need a twist in this story, ESB-style, but because there needs to be some kind of an explanation to the paradox that is Kylo Ren.

He can never be "just" a redeemed villain (even a complex one) who did bad things, realised what he has done, and regretted his former deeds, because from the looks of it, he's hating himself already. The "light" in him that's making him such an angsty mess of a villain is presumably comparable to that "innate goodness", and such an innate goodness presumably comes with a conscience too. He's actively going against that "light" for some reason, though he's making himself visibly miserable in the process. He isn't just regretting his deeds after the fact; he's concurrently living in miserable self-denial, denying half of himself, making himself clearly unhappy in the process, for some perverse reason. One might assume he has to be insane to do that.

I feel like they do have to explain somehow how this innately "there-is-persistent-light-in-him" person turned into Kylo Ren, murderous and unhappy. If the backstory is that he really did kill padawans for (insert some uncomplicatedly selfish Dark Side motive X), then that doesn't really do anything to explain Kylo Ren as he is now. Then something else will have to explain how Ben became Kylo. Or rather, why Ben is trying to be Kylo but not really succeeding. Being bad shouldn't have to be that hard.

To think of it in simple terms:

We have a character who feels a pull to the light - and I assume we can take "light" as a simplistic term for good things like the compassion he canonically feels.

Yet the same character commits crimes that are presented, in simplistic terms, as evil, and decidedly lacking in compassion.

Something is making him shut out the "light" and the compassion in him. In other words, something is making him shut out a pretty huge part of his basic personality. And that's "tearing him apart", and he's aware of that conflict.

I don't care if it turns out to be a mental illness metaphor or something completely different, but that "something" does need to be explained, IMO. Because if someone is capable of shutting out compassion simply for selfish reasons, then that person isn't innately compassionate in the first place. Simply put, a "good" person can't choose to be "not good" when it suits their purely selfish needs. If something is a major part of what makes the character who he is - like Kylo's light/compassion - then it can't be just turned on and off without a narrative justification.

@Darth Dingbat

Sing it sister!!! Incredible post! You beautifully articulated so much of what I feel as well.  Excellent!

Kessel89 wrote:@ISeeAnIsland- I see the situation a lot like you do. I don't think Kylo is brainwashed. I don't think he's fully innocent anymore. I think he knows what he's doing, including killing Han, but I think his fall (and why he continues to make terrible choices) will be much more nuanced than just him just wanting to be like Vader.

I think Ben was initially a victim (a target like JJ said). I think he was manipulated and his backstory will likely be portrayed in a sympathetic light in Episode VIII. However,  I think his anger and resentment likely played a role in him starting down a bad path, making bad choices. He seems to think he's doing the right thing. It really strikes me that he didn't want to kill Han, but he seemed to think he had to in order to accomplish his goal, whatever it is. Also,  I don't think Kylo would be as upset as he clearly was if  killing Han was solely so he could become more powerful for power's sake.

I think his initial motivation for starting on his current path will be sympathetic, but it's different now. I'm really curious about how the jedi temple massacre happened because I think it was pivotal and something climatic may have proceeded it, like the fellow padawans' reaction to the Vader reveal or some other occurence.

I think Kylo needs to come to terms with his choices and realize that he is not going down the right path. Once he's able to do this, he can begin making  the right choices.

@Kessel89

Yes, he went through with it, but I really think he has been trying to avoid Han for years.  I think this order is long-standing.  Also, if you watch the movie closely, he slows down near Han, and then turns from him and really speeds up as he walks away.  He is also shaken when Han calls out to him.  He did not expect that IMO.  This all indicates a lack of desire to take on his father, as does the puppy-eyed, non-masked Adam Driver performance when Han Solo is revealed to be his father and the begging of Vader to show him the power of the darkness after he gets the renewed order.  Further, he does act a little cult-victim with all that "The Supreme Leader is wise" business, until Han starts to break through to him.  I think he could have some programming/manipulation/something going on there, but he's struggling back and forth with it.  I actually believe, based on the acting, that he was truly considering going with his father, and something in him pulled him (dying sun) the other way.  Even the "I know what I have to do, but I don't think I have the strength to do it" tells you that he doesn't want to do it.  So what you and @Darth Dingbat are saying is crucial.  There has to be a *reason* he is making this awful choice.  There has to be some overriding goal.  And considering how zealous his mother acts in the new books, saying things like "I would burn the galaxy if I thought it was right" could be foreshadowing that we have a "son like mother" situation.  I think @Darth Dingbat and I might see eye to eye on some theories of why he felt he must make such terrible choices, but I don't need to go into those theories now.  But I completely agree that the storytellers *need to* provide us with a reason why he seems to be hell-bent to go against his own nature, which does seem to have an undying "light" at its core.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Yes, he went through with it, but I really think he has been trying to avoid Han for years.  I think this order is long-standing.  Also, if you watch the movie closely, he slows down near Han, and then turns from him and really speeds up as he walks away.  He is also shaken when Han calls out to him.  He did not expect that IMO.  This all indicates a lack of desire to take on his father, as does the puppy-eyed, non-masked Adam Driver performance when Han Solo is revealed to be his father and the begging of Vader to show him the power of the darkness after he gets the renewed order.  Further, he does act a little cult-victim with all that "The Supreme Leader is wise" business, until Han starts to break through to him.  I think he could have some programming/manipulation/something going on there, but he's struggling back and forth with it.  I actually believe, based on the acting, that he was truly considering going with his father, and something in him pulled him (dying sun) the other way.  Even the "I know what I have to do, but I don't think I have the strength to do it" tells you that he doesn't want to do it.  So what you and @Darth Dingbat are saying is crucial.  There has to be a *reason* he is making this awful choice.  There has to be some overriding goal.  And considering how zealous his mother acts in the new books, saying things like "I would burn the galaxy if I thought it was right" could be foreshadowing that we have a "son like mother" situation.  I think @Darth Dingbat and I might see eye to eye on some theories of why he felt he must make such terrible choices, but I don't need to go into those theories now.  But I completely agree that the storytellers *need to* provide us with a reason why he seems to be hell-bent to go against his own nature, which does seem to have an undying "light" at its core.

@SoloSideCousin

*edited out several awesome posts for the sake of overall post length*

I very much agree that Adam's acting really played it like he was leaning towards going home with Han, and then something changed in an instant. And again, if we go with Rey's reaction to him killing Han, I really think that she saw something in his mind in the interrogation scene that led her to believe that Kylo would be going home with them.

I'm not saying that him actually killing Han was a Manchurian! Kylo moment, but we've all had those moments where we were dreading doing something (e.g. jumping off the high dive as a kid, quitting a job you hate when you don't have another job waiting, etc), and at some point, you make the snap decision and just go through with it. I think that Kylo igniting the saber could have been something like that (although I wouldn't rule out something else being at play).