ARCHIVE: Discussion: Tweets/Instagram - 5

*sees the trigger word "Renperor"*

Irina de France wrote:Honestly, I think a couple with a black guy and an Asian girl is waaay more progressive than a couple with a black guy and a white girl? I don't know, I don't recall seeing an Asian/black couple anywhere.

@Irina de France

Well to be fair, there's no difficult historical background to the Asian/black race relations, not anywhere as much as to the white/black relations. Which is why it's something no one is really crying out for (unless it's more about the general presence of non-white characters in media). Just because something is rare doesn't necessarily mean it's progressive too.

@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

EDIT

@Darth Dingbat: Just saw your gif on the trigger word "Renperor". You and I think alike.

SanghaRen wrote:@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

@SanghaRen

I can easily believe that Kylo has feelings of entitlement, but that IMO doesn't necessarily have to dictate the actual storyline.

In the same way that Rey's abandonment issues (which by all rights she should have) may not necessarily be used to advance the story, even though they're a big part of the character.

SanghaRen wrote:@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

EDIT

@Darth Dingbat: Just saw your gif on the trigger word "Renperor". You and I think alike.

 

@SanghaRen Floating pears... Like grandfather, like grandson.

I don't think Renperor would play out at all. LOL. I think Kylo wouldn't be opposed to it if he saw it as a means to achieve his end (although he'd be terrible at it). Quite the contrary, I think Rey and Ren will be the beginning of the New Jedi Order, but see a possibility that Kylo had a vision of a future with Rey that looked quite the opposite of NJO by going dark and eradicating the Jedi.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

EDIT

@Darth Dingbat: Just saw your gif on the trigger word "Renperor". You and I think alike.

 

@SanghaRen Floating pears... Like grandfather, like grandson.

I don't think Renperor would play out at all. LOL. I think Kylo wouldn't be opposed to it if he saw it as a means to achieve his end (although he'd be terrible at it). Quite the contrary, I think Rey and Ren will be the beginning of the New Jedi Order, but see a possibility that Kylo had a vision of a future with Rey that looked quite the opposite of NJO by going dark and eradicating the Jedi.

@MeadowofAshes

This is how I see it too. I have never seen a villain ever redeemed by giving him exactly what he initially wants. He's going to realize the thing he thinks he wants is not what will make him happy in the end. Instead, it will be a sense of belonging with the person he trusts - that person is Rey. And likewise for Rey as well. The belonging she seeks isn't behind her (her parents coming back), but ahead.

SanghaRen wrote:@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

EDIT

@Darth Dingbat: Just saw your gif on the trigger word "Renperor". You and I think alike.

 

@SanghaRen

Re: floating pears, I was just referring to this:



Like you, I would find it very disturbing if Renperor and Reyempress were presented as a solution to anything. There are different types of stories where heirs claiming their rightful thrones just feel right. Aragorn becomes king as he was meant to, for example. And of course in wuxia stories some men simply deserve to become the Emperor. And in Shakespeare's Henry V we cheer for Henry who was a lot more awful in real life. But in the GFFA it's hard not to associate the Empire with everything evil and totalitarian. To suddenly turn it around would render the OT meaningless, IMO.

Even if this is just Kylo's current (delusional) goal and never happens, I would be very disappointed. I would find it a lot more difficult to understand and feel for him as a character if turned out that he killed Han because he wanted power and nothing more. It probably sounds weird, but without Han's death, Renperor would be more palatable to me as a (temporary) goal. But with Han's death - the ultimate sacrifice, pretty much - it becomes abhorrent.

But yeah... I've said all this before. *breathes deeply*

SanghaRen wrote:@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

EDIT

@Darth Dingbat: Just saw your gif on the trigger word "Renperor". You and I think alike.
 

@SanghaRen
I'm totally fine with him having a not-so-deep goal (because I'm not one who thinks he has a deep one at this point), but the point has always been that, if truly delusional, Kylo would need to have those delusions shattered in order to develop. That has already started with the realization that killing Han weakened him and his grandfather's saber - to which he felt entitled due to his bloodline - choosing the non-related scavenger over him. So yeah, that twist has clearly already begun. There will be no "Kylo becomes Renperor", even if that is what he initially felt was his destiny because of his connection to Vader.

There is a beautiful redemption story very befitting of Star Wars to be told in this particular light (totally delusional Kylo), it's just not the one some here would have preferred. But I think it was always just one of many possible trajectories, and always the one that felt most "right" to me. It's simple and packs a punch, and it truly leaves Rey as the protagonist. If Kylo was wrong, Kylo was wrong. I honestly think the more "wrong" he is, the more satisfying his development will be.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

EDIT

@Darth Dingbat: Just saw your gif on the trigger word "Renperor". You and I think alike.
 

@SanghaRen
I'm totally fine with him having a not-so-deep goal (because I'm not one who thinks he has a deep one at this point), but the point has always been that, if truly delusional, Kylo would need to have those delusions shattered in order to develop. That has already started with the realization that killing Han weakened him and his grandfather's saber - to which he felt entitled due to his bloodline - choosing the non-related scavenger over him. So yeah, that twist has clearly already begun. There will be no "Kylo becomes Renperor", even if that is what he initially felt was his destiny because of his connection to Vader.

There is a beautiful redemption story very befitting of Star Wars to be told in this particular light (totally delusional Kylo), it's just not the one some here would have preferred. But I think it was always just one of many possible trajectories, and always the one that felt most "right" to me. It's simple and packs a punch, and it truly leaves Rey as the protagonist. If Kylo was wrong, Kylo was wrong. I honestly think the more "wrong" he is, the more satisfying his development will be.

@FrolickingFizzgig

In many ways I agree, but at the same time - if Kylo has been totally wrong and totally delusional (and therefore, totally evil) all this time, I find it hard to imagine how he could survive the trilogy. Even someone like Ulic Qel-Droma (who was redeemed AND survived, despite killing his own brother) started out with a higher goal but it was more than he could chew and he got corrupted.

Why all the conflict, anyway? Why the mental illness tropes and the pain and the hints of him not being strong enough or dark enough? I just don't get it, unless he feels like he's doing the right thing. Even if his idea of the right thing is completely misguided.

But yeah... we'll see, we'll see. I completely trust Rian et al. to tell a beautiful story, whatever it is.

I just don't think there's enough time for Renperor. By the time he becomes one, the trilogy will be over. We know he spends considerable time on Ahch-to so he will not become a Renperor in VIII or at least not til the very end (lets say he kills Snoke in the last few minutes). So, yeah, not enough time to establish FO reaction to change of power, etc.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

@SanghaRen
I'm totally fine with him having a not-so-deep goal (because I'm not one who thinks he has a deep one at this point), but the point has always been that, if truly delusional, Kylo would need to have those delusions shattered in order to develop. That has already started with the realization that killing Han weakened him and his grandfather's saber - to which he felt entitled due to his bloodline - chose the non-related scavenger over him. So yeah, that twist has clearly already begun. There will be no "Kylo becomes Renperor", even if that is what he initially felt was his destiny because of his connection to Vader.

There is a beautiful redemption story very befitting of Star Wars to be told in this particular light (totally delusional Kylo), it's just not the one some here would have preferred. But I think it was always just one of many possible trajectories, and always the one that felt most "right" to me. It's simple and packs a punch.

So basically you think he's dumb... Joking

I agree that his original goals have to be shattered and that he might think a bit highly of himself in TFA - although I still think that deep down it's the opposite and he feels insecure so he's over-compensating and playing the Big Bad Guy. But I am with @Darth Dingbat on the disappointment if all there was to it is Kylo wanting to become powerful. Because of Han's death and because that's not what I saw before it happened. Power-hungry people do not care usually about walking over dead bodies. I've said this before but when Han calls his name, there's this shot of Kylo head down that I read as "Oh no!". I see him as a very unbalanced person, sometimes up - I am Super Evil and I own the place - and sometimes down - Grandpa, help! - which makes him easily manipulated. Maybe in the end it all comes down to him looking for a father figure and indeed his prime goal would be then to please SubstituteDaddy Snoke who told him that Vader had it all right up to when UncleLuke polluted his mind with compassion.

Just saw that Dingbat beat me again in giving you an answer. This girl is fast. I am getting old.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:@MeadowofAshes

I have to come here more often, I am not in the "floating pears" insider joke, although I can guess what it means . I am on board with the dream/vision too. Oh gosh you said the words Renperor and Reyempress * shuts the door, screams loudly, opens the door again* I have to admit that if you take Pablo's view on Kylo's feeling of entitlement as a fact and not an opinion, you might be right that Kylo believes he was meant to be a sort of Renperor. I don't like it, but maybe I'll like it when I see it and maybe the story is also not only created to please me so I'll have to live with it if it comes to that - which s**s because I am a fan and I expect Lucasfilm to bow to my desires . What would annoy me the most is if it ends with Renperor and Reyempress as the solution for peace in the Galaxy because that is just frightening to me. But I guess this is for another thread that I usually avoid. I am not much into debating nowadays.

EDIT

@Darth Dingbat: Just saw your gif on the trigger word "Renperor". You and I think alike.
 

@SanghaRen
I'm totally fine with him having a not-so-deep goal (because I'm not one who thinks he has a deep one at this point), but the point has always been that, if truly delusional, Kylo would need to have those delusions shattered in order to develop. That has already started with the realization that killing Han weakened him and his grandfather's saber - to which he felt entitled due to his bloodline - choosing the non-related scavenger over him. So yeah, that twist has clearly already begun. There will be no "Kylo becomes Renperor", even if that is what he initially felt was his destiny because of his connection to Vader.

There is a beautiful redemption story very befitting of Star Wars to be told in this particular light (totally delusional Kylo), it's just not the one some here would have preferred. But I think it was always just one of many possible trajectories, and always the one that felt most "right" to me. It's simple and packs a punch, and it truly leaves Rey as the protagonist. If Kylo was wrong, Kylo was wrong. I honestly think the more "wrong" he is, the more satisfying his development will be.

@FrolickingFizzgig

In many ways I agree, but at the same time - if Kylo has been totally wrong and totally delusional (and therefore, totally evil) all this time, I find it hard to imagine how he could survive the trilogy. Even someone like Ulic Qel-Droma (who was redeemed AND survived, despite killing his own brother) started out with a higher goal but it was more than he could chew and he got corrupted.

Why all the conflict, anyway? Why the mental illness tropes and the pain and the hints of him not being strong enough or dark enough? I just don't get it, unless he feels like he's doing the right thing. Even if his idea of the right thing is completely misguided.

But yeah... we'll see, we'll see. I completely trust Rian et al. to tell a beautiful story, whatever it is.

@Darth Dingbat
I don't think being totally wrong means being completely, unredeemably evil and I certainly don't think it disregards any mental illness tropes. Delusion is not evil for the sake of it, it's being misguided to the point that you need to have your delusions shattered and realize the errors of your ways. I don't think this conflicts with Kylo surviving at all, and I don't see how anybody could argue that Kylo ever did anything evil for the "evilz". Kylo 100% thinks he's right and doing the right thing (as production has repeated ad nauseum), and I'm more interested in learning why he feels that way, why it took 23 years for Snoke's influence to get to him and what made him succumb at last. Those are answers we will be getting in this trilogy. But yeah, Kylo being convinced he's right doesn't mean he actually is. He didn't kill Han because he thought it would be super fun, he did it because Snoke told him it would get rid of the pain of being torn between the light and dark. I think that was made quite clear in the film. It's an interpretation I've always held, and the irony was and always will be that he was dead wrong.

SanghaRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

@SanghaRen
I'm totally fine with him having a not-so-deep goal (because I'm not one who thinks he has a deep one at this point), but the point has always been that, if truly delusional, Kylo would need to have those delusions shattered in order to develop. That has already started with the realization that killing Han weakened him and his grandfather's saber - to which he felt entitled due to his bloodline - chose the non-related scavenger over him. So yeah, that twist has clearly already begun. There will be no "Kylo becomes Renperor", even if that is what he initially felt was his destiny because of his connection to Vader.

There is a beautiful redemption story very befitting of Star Wars to be told in this particular light (totally delusional Kylo), it's just not the one some here would have preferred. But I think it was always just one of many possible trajectories, and always the one that felt most "right" to me. It's simple and packs a punch.

So basically you think he's dumb... Joking

I agree that his original goals have to be shattered and that he might think a bit highly of himself in TFA - although I still think that deep down it's the opposite and he feels insecure so he's over-compensating and playing the Big Bad Guy. But I am with @Darth Dingbat on the disappointment if all there was to it is Kylo wanting to become powerful. Because of Han's death and because that's not what I saw before it happened. Power-hungry people do not care usually about walking over dead bodies. I've said this before but when Han calls his name, there's this shot of Kylo head down that I read as "Oh no!". I see him as a very unbalanced person, sometimes up - I am Super Evil and I own the place - and sometimes down - Grandpa, help! - which makes him easily manipulated. Maybe in the end it all comes down to him looking for a father figure and indeed his prime goal would be then to please SubstituteDaddy Snoke who told him that Vader had it all right up to when UncleLuke polluted his mind with compassion.

Just saw that Dingbat beat me again in giving you an answer. This girl is fast. I am getting old.

@SanghaRen

Shattered is a great word, in terms of what needs to happen to his original goals. Rey is going to be the one who who's going to turn up everything he thinks he knows on its ear, and it's going to be so fun to watch that happen. This is one of the reasons why I don't see Renporer as a possibility at all, and like @vaderito said, there's no time in this OT to make it happen based on what we already know. Sure, he could kill Snoke in IX and take his place, but again, that goes back to giving the villain what he originally wants, which never happens in these type of redemption stories.

And yes to @Darth Dingbat beating us! Girl must be a hella fast typer, because I'm not exactly slow...

SanghaRen wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

@SanghaRen
I'm totally fine with him having a not-so-deep goal (because I'm not one who thinks he has a deep one at this point), but the point has always been that, if truly delusional, Kylo would need to have those delusions shattered in order to develop. That has already started with the realization that killing Han weakened him and his grandfather's saber - to which he felt entitled due to his bloodline - chose the non-related scavenger over him. So yeah, that twist has clearly already begun. There will be no "Kylo becomes Renperor", even if that is what he initially felt was his destiny because of his connection to Vader.

There is a beautiful redemption story very befitting of Star Wars to be told in this particular light (totally delusional Kylo), it's just not the one some here would have preferred. But I think it was always just one of many possible trajectories, and always the one that felt most "right" to me. It's simple and packs a punch.

So basically you think he's dumb... Joking

I agree that his original goals have to be shattered and that he might think a bit highly of himself in TFA - although I still think that deep down it's the opposite and he feels insecure so he's over-compensating and playing the Big Bad Guy. But I am with @Darth Dingbat on the disappointment if all there was to it is Kylo wanting to become powerful. Because of Han's death and because that's not what I saw before it happened. Power-hungry people do not care usually about walking over dead bodies. I've said this before but when Han calls his name, there's this shot of Kylo head down that I read as "Oh no!". I see him as a very unbalanced person, sometimes up - I am Super Evil and I own the place - and sometimes down - Grandpa, help! - which makes him easily manipulated. Maybe in the end it all comes down to him looking for a father figure and indeed his prime goal would be then to please SubstituteDaddy Snoke who told him that Vader had it all right up to when UncleLuke polluted his mind with compassion.

Just saw that Dingbat beat me again in giving you an answer. This girl is fast. I am getting old.

@SanghaRen
I agree very much with your assessment here. Kylo Ren himself needs to be shattered.

I don't think being delusional, misguided and completely wrong is the same as being power hungry and doing evil things for the sake of evil. Kylo's all over the place.

Look at Prince Zuko from Avatar. He was wrong... like totally WRONG. So wrong. But he wasn't evil. He was lonely, scared and wanted the respect and admiration of his father. Sometimes deep, conflicting emotions can serve as a backdrop more interesting and relatable than having a "noble cause", because Zuko sure as hell never had one for trying to track down the Avatar. He was a selfish brat acting under the orders of someone who never even cared about him, and watching him realize that is satisfying and very, VERY powerful. It's a great redemption story, my favourite kind.

Now, I'm not saying the characters are all that similar, because they aren't, but both do have that theme of obsessive delusion that requires shattering with the aid of the protagonist.

I'll be honest, I prefer "totally delusional/all over the place/mess" Kylo to "secret mission, still 'wrong'" but in a kinda 'right' way" Kylo. This might all be down to interpretation/opinion, but this is how I tend to see the difference:

Totally Delusional Kylo:

"You killed your father."
"I was wrong. Totally wrong. Completely wrong. I hate myself. The end.

Secret "Righteous" Mission Kylo:

"You killed your father."
"I was wrong, but..."

I don't like that "but". There should never be a "but" there.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I see. So with #1 we have a Kylo who will never do it again while with #2 maybe next time he'll kill his mom for the next righteous mission. I don't know Avatar. I know you speak a lot about it. Maybe I should check it out one of these days. I am also not fond of #2. I think we are on the same page but express it differently. I am not the most articulate writer... To me the secret mission, if there is one, would still be tainted by whatever Snoke whispered to his ear so it would not be righteous. He might have thought it was righteous and then realizes that he was being fooled all along. So all in all, I think we agree.

SanghaRen wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

I see. So with #1 we have a Kylo who will never do it again while with #2 maybe next time he'll kill his mom for the next righteous mission. I don't know Avatar. I know you speak a lot about it. Maybe I should check it out one of these days. I am also not fond of #2. I think we are on the same page but express it differently. I am not the most articulate writer... To me the secret mission, if there is one, would still be tainted by whatever Snoke whispered to his ear so it would not be righteous. He might have thought it was righteous and then realizes that he was being fooled all along. So all in all, I think we agree.

@SanghaRen
I don't know if he'll ever do it again or not, but the whole idea of there being a "but" there is just... I don't know, it's not my preferred outcome for this story. I would rather see him atone than walk off still thinking he was kind of right or even being kind of right because "his noble mission would have helped everybody even if he had to wipe out the entire galaxy!" Meh. His father gave up everything when he walked out on that catwalk. What he said to Kylo about Snoke using him was the absolute truth, and even though Kylo is obviously realizing it, he hasn't accepted it yet.

The Jedi killing is in line with what we've seen/heard so far. Huge pieces of the puzzle are still missing because we know next to nothing about what was going on with Luke and Ben during the Jedi relic hunting/training days. But the spoiler about Kylo wanting to kill Rey (and possibly Luke) fits with the little we have to go on. It is what happens once Kylo and Rey come face to face again that counts regarding this supposed mission. He couldn't kill her on Starkiller. Kylo either failed to kill Luke before or never got the chance to try for some reason, but during TFA he did seem to want to find his uncle for personal reasons rather than Snoke's mission. A lot of this looks bad and seems to add to making Kylo unredeemable, but with so many important pieces of the story yet to be told, nothing is set in stone.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The Jedi killing is in line with what we've seen/heard so far. Huge pieces of the puzzle are still missing because we know next to nothing about what was going on with Luke and Ben during the Jedi relic hunting/training days. But the spoiler about Kylo wanting to kill Rey (and possibly Luke) fits with the little we have to go on. It is what happens once Kylo and Rey come face to face again that counts regarding this supposed mission. He couldn't kill her on Starkiller. Kylo either failed to kill Luke before or never got the chance to try for some reason, but during TFA he did seem to want to find his uncle for personal reasons rather than Snoke's mission. A lot of this looks bad and seems to add to making Kylo unredeemable, but with so many important pieces of the story yet to be told, nothing is set in stone.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I agree on most you wrote here. Even Kylo s ultimate goal is the Jedi purge (what he thinks his grandfather started), killing his own father still has more weight in terms of staying unredeemed than Jedi purge (Vader killed bunch of Jedi s + his master who was as a brother to him and still got redeemed at the end).
As Kathleen Kennedy said the things in SW does not function on the same level as in RL.
I have as well an impression that finding Luke is more important for Kylo than for Snoke. It seems to me that Snoke was not so enthusiastic of finding Skywalker it looks that he rather preferred Luke in exile and out of reach.

@FrolickingFizzgig:

Well, what I've been talking about isn't necessarily about some secret mission, though as you all know I wouldn't turn up my nose at that, either. (That would depend entirely on the story, which I believe could be told in many different ways.) It's mainly about his reasons for going dark in the first place. That's where I kind of expect to find something more interesting than "woke up one morning in my mid-twenties and decided I should kill everyone standing in my way so I can rule the galaxy".

As in the case of Ulic Qel-Droma - whom I mention a lot because he and Kylo seem to have a lot in common - who joined the Dark Side in order to fight the Dark Side. His fatal flaw was that he arrogantly overestimated his own strength and assumed he could resist corruption. Well, he couldn't, of course. Then he became genuinely dark and, like I said, even killed his own brother (the realisation of which helped snap him out of the darkness, curiously).

Had Kylo been very young when he actually turned, the "under orders of an evil father figure" scenario would have made more sense. As it turned out he wasn't all that young, he had more active choice (unless he's delusional to the point of mental illness, in which case it isn't really a redemption story either? it would be a case of diminished capacity) and he has not only a lot of blood on his hands but also the archetypal crime of patricide that most cultures see as beyond redemption.

You could say that Dumbledore's death is a sort of patricide trope as well (or a similarly archetypal crime) but I don't think Snape's storyline or the death itself was cheapened by the twist at all.

It's definitely not about having "buts" or the message being that sometimes you just gotta kill your father. But then, I don't think the Snape storyline's message was "sometimes you just gotta kill a father figure" either.

Sometimes fictional characters end up in impossible situations for the sake of drama where there are no good choices and no good outcomes. That's tragic and serves a dramatic purpose, but doesn't necessarily have a "message". Sometimes, as in the case of Harry Potter, the act itself has no real message - it's more about the drama and raising the stakes - and the message of the story (and HP definitely has a message of love and loyalty) lies elsewhere.

tl;dr version: As we keep being told that Kylo believes he's doing the right thing, I hope we at least get to see why he believes he's doing the right thing. Otherwise, what's the point? Nobody ever emphasised that Vader believed he was doing the right thing. He was corrupted, he was never that great a person to begin with, and his redemption was still believable. For some reason, it seems to be crucial that Kylo believes he's doing the right thing, so I hope the reason is at least something interesting.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Zuko - though wrong - didn't actually commit any archetypal, first-circle-of-Dante's-hell type of crime either?

SanghaRen wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

I see. So with #1 we have a Kylo who will never do it again while with #2 maybe next time he'll kill his mom for the next righteous mission. I don't know Avatar. I know you speak a lot about it. Maybe I should check it out one of these days. I am also not fond of #2. I think we are on the same page but express it differently. I am not the most articulate writer... To me the secret mission, if there is one, would still be tainted by whatever Snoke whispered to his ear so it would not be righteous. He might have thought it was righteous and then realizes that he was being fooled all along. So all in all, I think we agree.

@SanghaRen

SanghaRen wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

I see. So with #1 we have a Kylo who will never do it again while with #2 maybe next time he'll kill his mom for the next righteous mission. I don't know Avatar. I know you speak a lot about it. Maybe I should check it out one of these days. I am also not fond of #2. I think we are on the same page but express it differently. I am not the most articulate writer... To me the secret mission, if there is one, would still be tainted by whatever Snoke whispered to his ear so it would not be righteous. He might have thought it was righteous and then realizes that he was being fooled all along. So all in all, I think we agree.

@SanghaRen

@Sangha Ren -- Spoilers for the Avatar: The Last Airbender TV show below, and I don't know how to hide them, so read on at your own risk.  That said, there probably isn't anything you haven't gathered from reading on these forums. EDIT: Figured out how to hide it!

Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig:

Well, what I've been talking about isn't necessarily about some secret mission, though as you all know I wouldn't turn up my nose at that, either. (That would depend entirely on the story, which I believe could be told in many different ways.) It's mainly about his reasons for going dark in the first place. That's where I kind of expect to find something more interesting than "woke up one morning in my mid-twenties and decided I should kill everyone standing in my way so I can rule the galaxy".

As in the case of Ulic Qel-Droma - whom I mention a lot because he and Kylo seem to have a lot in common - who joined the Dark Side in order to fight the Dark Side. His fatal flaw was that he arrogantly overestimated his own strength and assumed he could resist corruption. Well, he couldn't, of course. Then he became genuinely dark and, like I said, even killed his own brother (the realisation of which helped snap him out of the darkness, curiously).

Had Kylo been very young when he actually turned, the "under orders of an evil father figure" scenario would have made more sense. As it turned out he wasn't all that young, he had more active choice (unless he's delusional to the point of mental illness, in which case it isn't really a redemption story either? it would be a case of diminished capacity) and he has not only a lot of blood on his hands but also the archetypal crime of patricide that most cultures see as beyond redemption.

You could say that Dumbledore's death is a sort of patricide trope as well (or a similarly archetypal crime) but I don't think Snape's storyline or the death itself was cheapened by the twist at all.

It's definitely not about having "buts" or the message being that sometimes you just gotta kill your father. But then, I don't think the Snape storyline's message was "sometimes you just gotta kill a father figure" either.

Sometimes fictional characters end up in impossible situations for the sake of drama where there are no good choices and no good outcomes. That's tragic and serves a dramatic purpose, but doesn't necessarily have a "message". Sometimes, as in the case of Harry Potter, the act itself has no real message - it's more about the drama and raising the stakes - and the message of the story (and HP definitely has a message of love and loyalty) lies elsewhere.

tl;dr version: As we keep being told that Kylo believes he's doing the right thing, I hope we at least get to see why he believes he's doing the right thing. Otherwise, what's the point? Nobody ever emphasised that Vader believed he was doing the right thing. He was corrupted, he was never that great a person to begin with, and his redemption was still believable. For some reason, it seems to be crucial that Kylo believes he's doing the right thing, so I hope the reason is at least something interesting.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Zuko - though wrong - didn't actually commit any archetypal, first-circle-of-Dante's-hell type of crime either?

@Darth Dingbat

Again, Avatar spoiler (I figured it out!!!!):

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@SanghaRen
I don't know if he'll ever do it again or not, but the whole idea of there being a "but" there is just... I don't know, it's not my preferred outcome for this story. I would rather see him atone than walk off still thinking he was kind of right or even being kind of right because "his noble mission would have helped everybody even if he had to wipe out the entire galaxy!" Meh. His father gave up everything when he walked out on that catwalk. What he said to Kylo about Snoke using him was the absolute truth, and even though Kylo is obviously realizing it, he hasn't accepted it yet.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree with you. Kylo doesn't come off to me as the "he had a noble mission and was at least partially right" kind of guy. He strikes me as having delusions of doing the right thing and becoming obsessed with fulfilling his grandfather's legacy and forcing feelings of entitlement because it makes him feel powerful and useful. I think it's quite obvious that Kylo has some severe self worth issues and desperately wants to feel like he's doing something that matters. But nothing about the way he's presented, the way his past appears to be right now, and his personality and maturity level suggests a true, complex moral dilemma to me. He doesn't appear to be a very politically charged villain right now either, so I was never quite sure about those theories that he's upset with the state of the galaxy's rule and wants to overhaul it.

Everything about Kylo screams that he's full on wrong and convincing himself that he's right. This especially follows if Snoke has been manipulating him for a long time. I don't think a manipulation story and a "he was kinda right in some way" story quite jive together in a way that's compelling. I think part of the sympathy we're meant to have for Kylo is that he's kind of pathetic. Lost, as he's been described.

I mean, clearly there must be some reason he thinks he's right, but who knows. I could be completely wrong and it'll turn out that he really did have some partially correct reason for doing what he's doing.

@Lily Snape: Your spoilers are uncovered! But thank you. That's very interesting indeed.

On a bit light note to support Kathleen Kennedy words on SW moral, I just found this little quiz on SW official site.
Another example of treating the villains in SW universe.

http://www.starwars.com/news/how-much-are-you-like-darth-vader

Darth Dingbat wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:@Darth Dingbat

You killed my curse theory with your Kylo-not-killing-Rey argument :(

Or... He was just fascinated by the bubbling force in her. I saw a movie about a group of moose breeders that had a foe with wolves - obviously since wolves feed on moose. Any wolf crossing their paths was a dead one. But a young guy saw one day pups and could not bring himself to kill them. He then tried to teach them to not hunt and kill moose.

Rey is still a force pup. Kylo could have thought that if he teaches her, she would not turn into these Jedis who destroyed it all.

Maybe it's a bit far-fetched.

@SanghaRen

Fascinated yes, and maybe he wasn't thinking straight ;) Perhaps destroying the Force and the Jedi and all that was the goal before he met The Girl. And after Han's death and the "it is you" moment he was shaken out of those fanatical beliefs and thought, "Killing my father didn't even work as expected, perhaps it was all a lie! I don't want to die anymore! Goals, what goals? Look at this magnificent and powerful girl! Wait, magnificent girl, don't go! I can teach you! I know how to stop blaster bolts! I know lots of things! I can show you all kinds of wonders, such as floating pears! We can run away and forget about all this unpleasantness and just enjoy life for a change! The last time I had fun was at the age of fifteen when I went to a theme park with my mother! Will you come to a theme park with me? We can take all the rides and eat so much candy floss we'll throw up in the rollercoaster! It will be splendid!"

@Darth Dingbat

I just had cotton candy at the State Fair! No roller coasters, just a Dwight Yoakum concert and 4-H goat competition. Kylo wasn't there, he's probably too cool for school to hang out at a glorified agriculture exposition.

But you're about right otherwise in his thinking process. He wants Rey to know that she should hang out with him because he could show her the ways of fabulous hair, cool things that you can find in the Imperial Archives, and present her with that mixtape which demonstrates how very cool he is and his very special feelings about their potential future together. Meaning - very desperately trying to front to the girl who is way cooler and more bad a** than him that he's at her level.

Snoke probably has fed him some Renperer scenario, so likely once he first sees Rey and gets all hot and bothered around her, starts thinking she'd be his consort (c'mon, Apprentice is such a euphemism. He doesn't want to play teacher with her as much he wants to play doctor). But tbh that's not going to be her scene. Adolescent male power fantasies (bet he also thought that she'd hand over the map to him and they'd then play some RPGs) are pretty boring when you've been homeless/trying to not starve to death for most of ones' life.