(couldn't just call it:) The Force

ohhhh @vaderito i think figuratively kylo is already doing the underworld. i'm not sure he could go much further. but it would be interesting to explore that kind of thing in the new movies. i feel they are much more infused with mysticism of the force.

guardienne wrote:ohhhh @vaderito i think figuratively kylo is already doing the underworld. i'm not sure he could go much further. but it would be interesting to explore that kind of thing in the new movies. i feel they are much more infused with mysticism of the force.

@guardienne

They definitely drew some parallels with Dante's Hell (fiery one for all sinners and snowy one for murders of their kin) so if they actually show Force version aka Netherworld (Force Underworld, land of the dead) that would be interesting.

BTW, I'm listening to JW's score for Anakin's Fall (including March on the Temple, Execute Order 66 and the duel between OB1 and Anakin) and I see that Kylo theme is derived from some of those music cues, the trumpet part for example. Interesting that Anakin's fall inspired Kylo theme. he is Reverse Anakin.

@vaderito i think anakin's journey is sort of incomplete. i think that's to do with lucas not being able to retroactively give vader more depth, i guess. i would hope that kylo gets a more consistent mythological arc actually.

when people compare them, i think well, one would have been impossible without the other so i don't begrudge lucas his achievement really. i think his writing isn't very visceral but i appreciate what he set out to do, i think that is really cool.

but of course the comparison means that already the motifs of entering the underworld, the princess trapped by an evil curse, the monstering, these things have already marvellously been done in just this one film. and with anakin i don't think lucas was able to invest his journey with anything as potent. i guess it wasn't necessary as such, darth vader is a pretty potent outcome if you ever needed one.

we discussed the underworld motif in the dark with thread possibly a little already. i don't know if you are familiar with his dark materials? there is another journey into the underworld there, the kids are freeing all the souls trapped, i think. that seems to be the usual purpose, and you are right to mention the divine comedy of course, i'd totally forgotten about that one! dante goes to retrieve beatrice, doesn't he?

it's interesting wrt HDM that pullman wrote something that is about sexual awakening as well, balance in those books is restored through sexual communion.

@guardienne

His Dark Materials, love it. it's discussed here around 1:54:00 mark I think:

https://www.mixcloud.com/sw_connection/swc9-rey-and-kylo-as-adam-and-eve-return-to-jedi-eden/

Yes, I'd love to see something like when they went into the Underworld and met Harpies and had to leave their daemons because they couldn't cross the river.

Will elaborate more on Vader when I come back.

EDIT: update. Vader. Agreed. I think it's because of the gap. We see how he fell to the dark side and than nothing until he's older and his son shows up. Books are now filling in those gaps but there really isn't much except writing about bad sith over and over.

thanks so much for sharing that @vaderito i'd been waiting for the sequel to the youtube video!

ugh, like, the whole creating the world anew theme is so potent, i cannot bloody wait for th next movie??!!

you know, the leaving the daemons behind is sort of like leaving the force behind innit

guardienne wrote:thanks so much for sharing that @vaderito i'd been waiting for the sequel to the youtube video!

ugh, like, the whole creating the world anew theme is so potent, i cannot bloody wait for th next movie??!!

you know, the leaving the daemons behind is sort of like leaving the force behind innit

@guardienne

Excellent comparison!

I'm intrigued about creating the world too. Rian said VIII will be weird, and that won't apply to the Resistance. Ahch-to and the Force is where the weirdness will happen. Jungian stuff, Bly, Letter Never Sent.

@vaderito my world-creating reference is also princess mononoke. i think mononoke goes towards that theme with a more melancholy outlook of what the new world has lost in comparison.

also, i'm wondering how much they act like children. it's usually lack of self-consciousness, the describes the world-creators. they come to it innocent. but kylo and rey are not innocents. well, kylo clearly isn't.

i love your short-hand of bly, letter never sent i've not seen the movie yet so i can't really comment.

guardienne wrote:@vaderito my world-creating reference is also princess mononoke. i think mononoke goes towards that theme with a more melancholy outlook of what the new world has lost in comparison.

also, i'm wondering how much they act like children. it's usually lack of self-consciousness, the describes the world-creators. they come to it innocent. but kylo and rey are not innocents. well, kylo clearly isn't.

i love your short-hand of bly, letter never sent i've not seen the movie yet so i can't really comment.

@guardienne

I hope we see child versions of both. That would be super Jungian if their child versions meet.

@vaderito that would be a bit too much although i feel they've both had visions of each other. and maybe kylo has had visions of her ever since she was born? i think he's been obsessing with her for a long time.

guardienne wrote:@vaderito that would be a bit too much although i feel they've both had visions of each other. and maybe kylo has had visions of her ever since she was born? i think he's been obsessing with her for a long time.

@guardienne

It's hard to explain. I've seen it in manga. It's like characters touching their souls but presenting as their reverting to children. It's actually very beautiful. Like, lets say, they enter some Jungian cave and see each other as children.

@vaderito, i think it's possible and wouldn't rule it out from a weirdness angle. i do think that now that they've opened the floodgates with a vision on touching and mutual mind-reading and blaster-bolt stopping, the sky is pretty much the limit. like, in terms of sheer force skills.

but i like to think that the films will keep their force experience a mystery to us. i can't think of examples of others stories that do that but I loooooove the allusions to things that they don't have to explain to each other. it's a very special little seed. and i hope this won't be ruoned by too much exposition.

but anyway, coming back to the force itself, in the movies, my main concern is how they would go about showing them use the force in a grey sort of way, how would that be visualised. i remember reading that fic and their power increased every time they touched. like, that was a way to me to show they are working together, obviously, but i hope it'll be visually interesting.

guardienne wrote:@vaderito, i think it's possible and wouldn't rule it out from a weirdness angle. i do think that now that they've opened the floodgates with a vision on touching and mutual mind-reading and blaster-bolt stopping, the sky is pretty much the limit. like, in terms of sheer force skills.

but i like to think that the films will keep their force experience a mystery to us. i can't think of examples of others stories that do that but I loooooove the allusions to things that they don't have to explain to each other. it's a very special little seed. and i hope this won't be ruoned by too much exposition.

but anyway, coming back to the force itself, in the movies, my main concern is how they would go about showing them use the force in a grey sort of way, how would that be visualised. i remember reading that fic and their power increased every time they touched. like, that was a way to me to show they are working together, obviously, but i hope it'll be visually interesting.

@guardienne

I'm hoping to see more of the Force thna just people waving their hands making objects fly and fighting with LS. That's why I love Snow Fight so much. The flow of colors and their merging between rey and Kylo was like the flow of the Force.

has anyone seen this MSW meta about the Force?

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/09/you-seek-knowledge-the-structure-of-the-force-and-how-its-layers-work/

Let’s start by breaking down the difference between the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. The Living Force is the active, current present of reality. Being mindful of the Living Force involves keeping concentration on the here and now, rather than letting anxieties about the future come at the expense of the present moment. Essentially it means that to be attuned with the Living Force a Force user must be aware to what he/she is feeling in the moment. The Living Force feeds into the Cosmic Force, binding all living things together. That includes the past, present, and future. The Cosmic Force is the entire history of Force. The people, places, things, and events that are touched by the Force are forever inscribed within it....

The Jedi and Sith are just a category under the ideas of the light and dark side. Both have a connection to the Force, but the Force would still exist even if they didn’t. The Force was around before someone decided to create the idea of the Jedi or Sith and it will be there long after they are all gone.

Now, let’s picture the top couple of Force family tree as one picture. The Jedi and Sith are branches that fall underneath the light side and dark side layer, which fall under the Living and Cosmic Force layer. The Force is the top layer in which everything else MUST grow from while connecting via the midi-chlorians. The only absolutes that never change within the concept of the Force are the midi-chlorians, the Living Force, and the Cosmic Force. Everything else is just an idea or dogma that has been created by someone at some point as a way to understand and teach the Force. How important these ideas are really just depends a person’s opinion from their “certain point of view.”

There's much more and is really good.

Bolded sounds like Trinity to me, so having Luke, Rey and Kylo in one place is definitely very significant.

vaderito wrote:

guardienne wrote:@vaderito my world-creating reference is also princess mononoke. i think mononoke goes towards that theme with a more melancholy outlook of what the new world has lost in comparison.

also, i'm wondering how much they act like children. it's usually lack of self-consciousness, the describes the world-creators. they come to it innocent. but kylo and rey are not innocents. well, kylo clearly isn't.

i love your short-hand of bly, letter never sent i've not seen the movie yet so i can't really comment.

@guardienne

I hope we see child versions of both. That would be super Jungian if their child versions meet.

@vaderito
Oh god, please. PLEASE RIAN. 

@FrolickingFizzGig I think that slash fiction doesn't really under-appreciate friendships as much as there's reaction to lack of male/male romantic pairings in fiction and movies. Which is true. OTOH, some Finnrey views are pure sexism that sees Finn as a lesser if he doesn't have sex with Rey. Like, it's a matter of his male honor.

vaderito wrote:@FrolickingFizzGig I think that slash fiction doesn't really under-appreciate friendships as much as there's reaction to lack of male/male romantic pairings in fiction and movies. Which is true. OTOH, some Finnrey views are pure sexism that sees Finn as a lesser if he doesn't have sex with Rey. Like, it's a matter of his male honor.  

@vaderito

But again, if we accept that stories are products of their time, we can see that it's also going to take time to get there. And even then it's a bigger bone of contention than race or gender. Not everybody has the same tolerance threshold, many societies around the world are largely homophobic (and that means "mainstream" narratives, which will want to reach the largest possible target-audience, will stray away), it can be considered a niche interest... and then we have the whole "social justice pandering" thing. But I think we are getting there. I wasn't big on Korra for so many reasons, but the main protagonist ends up with a woman. And that's a very mainstream kid's show! We're going to start seeing more and more. 

And as for Naruto (wrong thread, but whatever), we have Haku and Zabuza and Kimimaro and Juugo. Their interactions are ambiguous to say the least. I don't even think it's debatable that Haku loved Zabuza in a manner that extended into romantic territory.