What REALLY happened at Luke's Jedi "Let's Not Call it an Academy" Place...your thoughts?

I know that a lot of us picked up on the ambiguous language around Han telling Rey how "a boy turned against Luke and ruined it all", as far as Luke trying to re-start the Jedi order. And we've had PH's clarification to "let's not call it an Academy".

Out of curiosity, what are your own theories, as far as what Luke was doing? And what do you think actually happened there?

I just don't see the situation being Ben murdering a bunch of younglings (ala Anakin 2.0), although that's what I expect the audience was supposed to think. And then when we get Ben's backstory, we'll be shocked to find out that it was something else.

I can't remember who, but someone on this forum had a theory that while Luke was away (and it sounds more and more like Luke was away when this happened, from the hints that have been dropped) that some of the teenage padawans turned on Ben when they found out that Vader was his grandfather, and that he killed them in self-defense. I think that's my personal favorite theory, but I've also seen some good hypothesizes that he was a sentinel, and simply let in the KOR, not realizing they were going to kill everyone, etc.

An option that I have considered was that young Ben's emotional regulation wasn't so great in those days, either, and somehow in a fit of rage he let it slip to Snoke that he wished everyone was dead.

And Snoke, playing on his vulnerability, brought in his Knights of Ren and made it happen. That would leave Ben wracked with guilt and considered (and considering himself) the Jedi Killer, and put responsibility in his hands. He would feel like he could never go home again, and he would be entirely in Snoke's power.

That theory borrows from Henry II and Thomas a Becket's story. Supposedly, Henry, who had an infamous temper, complained in public at court in a rage, "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?" (or the less poetic "What miserable drones and traitors have I nourished and brought up in my household, who let their lord be treated with such shameful contempt by a low-born cleric?").

Four knights sailed across the Channel and did away with Thomas a Becket in a very nasty way, thinking to earn favor. Henry did very severe public penance for that.

Although I don't think VIII will go with this version of the story, because I think they will ascribe more guilt to Ben than this story allows, it does have a ring to it due to it's medieval antecedents and Snoke's poisonous and controlling hold on Ben/Kylo. It would be a solution that would explain Kylo's self-loathing certainty that he cannot go home, his disappointment in his family (who never doubted he was evil, never came for him), and his utter dependance on Snoke.

Aren't we meant to assume that Ren carried out some sort of massacre, but I don't know. That is too much Anakin.

Unless of course it was an act of self defence, because as you said @ISeeAnIsland the others found out about who his family is and ganged up on him and he reacted with both lightsaber and the Force.

Agreed on the supposed killings front - I don't think he simply killed them all. Perhaps Snoke was helping Luke teach his students and something happened? Snoke does seem to have a lightsaber injury on his face, once the DVD is out we'll be able to post screenshots. I wonder if Luke did that or one of the students?

Something I read about Snoke being around since the earlier episodes makes me wonder whether he's been pulling the strings for a while and none of the original heroes realised until it was too late. Maybe he was in a position of trust.

Airemyn wrote:Agreed on the supposed killings front - I don't think he simply killed them all. Perhaps Snoke was helping Luke teach his students and something happened? Snoke does seem to have a lightsaber injury on his face, once the DVD is out we'll be able to post screenshots. I wonder if Luke did that or one of the students?

Something I read about Snoke being around since the earlier episodes makes me wonder whether he's been pulling the strings for a while and none of the original heroes realised until it was too late. Maybe he was in a position of trust.

I don't think he's completely innocent, but I think there's more to the story. The incident was worded in a way, I believe, to make the audience automatically think of what Anakin did, but I suspect that when we get Ben Solo's backstory, it's going to turn out to be something completely different than what we're expecting.

I believe that when Rey saw Luke and R2D2 in her vision are the time before Luke's disappearing and that place would be the Jedi Place with are being burned to the ground but since I don't see any bodies so I don't think Kylo killed all of the students, he may have anger issue but it would not be that violence for him to murders fellow students . I agree that Snoke or someone did the crime and put them on him as a chain to keep him under control or make him believe he's the one who did the killing, though we don't really know how many students are there in that place.

And I have this theory at the back of my mind that maybe another padawan turn to the Dark Side, kills the others and Kylo take the blame for it while the other padawan is Snoke's secret pawn in the shadown

The whole thing was left deliberately vague, I think, so that there could be some kind of plot twist reveal. I'm not trying to suggest Kylo/Ben is innocent of any wrongdoing, but I do believe there's a hell of a lot more to this than we know so far.

I suspect Luke wasn't present at the time of the incident. It could be that he sensed something bad was happening through the force, but didn't get back in time to prevent it. There's that bit from Rey's force back vision where Luke it laying his hand on R2D2 with flames in the background (his Jedi temple - or whatever it was- burning or a funeral pyre?)

Ben could have been waiting for Luke to leave for his chance to strike. But if Snoke was directing the whole thing, he would surely have wanted him to take Luke out too. As it stands, I'm more inclined to believe it wasn't premeditated and something happened to push Ben over the edge.

We don't even know anything about the new Jedi Order that Luke Skywalker was trying to build. The only padawan we know for sure about is Ben. I mean how many Jedi could Luke realistically train at one time as the only Master? If he had been out finding and training force sensitives since the events of Return of The Jedi, some of them must have reached Master status by the time Ben Solo turned.

Pablo Hidalgo did say we would be getting more information on these events, so here's hoping!

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_massacre

Is this information reliable or fan interpretation?

MeadowofAshes wrote:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_massacre

Is this information reliable or fan interpretation?

It seems to have been cobbled together from various sources of information. The official Star Wars databank is an official source for a lot of it http://www.starwars.com/databank/kylo-ren but the details are still vague.

I have a theory that that was a power struggle of sorts...

First I don´t think that there were many students there, and most certainly they were not children...Kylo was 23 when it happened, right? Maybe Snoke (or the real evil power from the shadows) was corrupting more than just Ben, or all of them, and made them turned against each other....With Ben emerging at the top being blamed for killing the others...I don´t mean to say that he was framed, but maybe he didn´t kill all of them?

I don´t think Luke was there when that happened, so maybe that´s why he felt like he failed?

Also, The knights of Ren have something to do with that, imo....Maybe not all of Luke´s students died? But then, why don´t they wield lightsabers?

Also an interesting thought occurred to me...could have Lor San Tekka been involved with the academy....because I can´t shake a distinctive feeling that there is a backstory between Kylo and him....that maybe in a way justifies his killing (hell yeah I can say that here in pro redemption forum)

Arcana wrote:I have a theory that that was a power struggle of sorts...

First I don´t think that there were many students there, and most certainly they were not children...Kylo was 23 when it happened, right? Maybe Snoke (or the real evil power from the shadows) was corrupting more than just Ben, or all of them, and made them turned against each other....With Ben emerging at the top being blamed for killing the others...I don´t mean to say that he was framed, but maybe he didn´t kill all of them?

I don´t think Luke was there when that happened, so maybe that´s why he felt like he failed?

Also, The knights of Ren have something to do with that, imo....Maybe not all of Luke´s students died? But then, why don´t they wield lightsabers?

Also an interesting thought occurred to me...could have Lor San Tekka been involved with the academy....because I can´t shake a distinctive feeling that there is a backstory between Kylo and him....that maybe in a way justifies his killing (hell yeah I can say that here in pro redemption forum)

Lor San Tekka runs the Church of the Force, which is an organization in which non Force sensitives worship the Force. Could the KoR be fallen Church of the Force adherents who followed Kylo/Ben?

@MeadowofAshes

It will be fun to find out I strongly feel that Lor San Tekka is not as he seems to be and has a history with Ren...

Arcana wrote:@MeadowofAshes

It will be fun to find out I strongly feel that Lor San Tekka is not as he seems to be and has a history with Ren...

I am excited but I feel like we'll find out just eough to put the pieces together in Ep 8 and 9. I really hope they do a Ben Solo back story movie.

Everything about the fall of the Jedi praxeum seems to be blatant misdirection on the part of the film makers and storytellers. It wasn't too long after the movie that everyone began making it into a massacre--most likely because of the connotations of the "Jedi Killer" nomenclature. My crack theory is that this is all propaganda on Snoke's part, and that Ben felt responsible for whatever happened because a) we can suppose if Snoke was mentally linked/watching him he would have given up its location and the fact that Luke was away, presenting the opportunity for an attack and b) he couldn't protect/save the others. Whether or not he actually killed anyone is debatable--perhaps I'm a bit too optimistic but I would like to believe that Ben didn't have a choice in the matter--it was either submit and join the FO or die with the others. If Snoke had established a telepathic link (force bond?) with Ben at some point he would have considered himself tainted/cursed and the only way to correct that would be to destroy Snoke.

The fact that he hasn't completed his training and Snoke is remote seems to speak volumes about the fact that Snoke does not trust him and keeps him at arm's length. He knows Kylo will betray him at some point but he is too valuable of a chess piece to sacrifice. He represents the fact that despite the fall of the Empire, despite the return of the Jedi, there was always the presence of a corrupting force within the universe which could manipulate the Skywalker blood for its own purposes. I don't believe Kylo is a double agent but I do believe he is actively resisting and fighting the control Snoke has had over him since before he even began his training with Luke.

One of the things I've been speculating on lately is how old was Ben when he first came into contact with Snoke? If Leia knew him personally (Pablo Hidalgo's upcoming Propaganda book actually says the First Order was at one time represented in the Senate--I'll try to find the scan but I'm on mobile) then there is the possibility he was a young child. Even without the horribly sad real life ramifications wouldn't it make sense for a young Ben Solo to feel like he was partially responsible for being corrupted? Would that self-hatred and drive to become stronger in the Dark Side be his way of becoming powerful enough to end Snoke and any other influence who could steal/torture/brainwash children? If this is the case than it makes sense why he had to kill Han--both to try and become stronger and because his mission was not yet completed. He didn't have a choice.

@ashesforfoxes ... i'm also holding out hope that the movie is being coy for a reason. i'm having a pretty strict movies only policy which is helpful in that regard, whether the database says one thing or another.

i think ben was framed for something. i can see why han wouldn't say 'my son' in the scene bu i can't see why he can't say 'kylo ren'. that would have been a lot less ambiguous. for that reason i also think that it was someone else and somehow ben got tagged with it.

i have a feeling he had trouble containing his temper at the praxeum (what a great word!) and that people simply assumed it was him - just like some posters do now.

ashesforfoxes wrote:The fact that he hasn't completed his training and Snoke is remote seems to speak volumes about the fact that Snoke does not trust him and keeps him at arm's length. He knows Kylo will betray him at some point but he is too valuable of a chess piece to sacrifice. He represents the fact that despite the fall of the Empire, despite the return of the Jedi, there was always the presence of a corrupting force within the universe which could manipulate the Skywalker blood for its own purposes. I don't believe Kylo is a double agent but I do believe he is actively resisting and fighting the control Snoke has had over him since before he even began his training with Luke.

I have wondered whether Kylo has been avoiding his final initiation into the Dark Side for some reason, rather than Snoke denying it to him. It seems odd that he's 29 and has presumably had more than a decade of training on one side or the other and wasn't initiated into either. Clearly he isn't incompetent.

Wonderful thoughts, everyone.
And I agree there's more to this massacre (was it even a massacre?) than we're led to think.

Many viewers jump to the conclusion of Anakin 2.0 just because it is familiar. I think the filmmakers know this, and lead the audiences into this assumption, but there's nothing to confirm that's how it went.

If Ben was framed or wrongly accused, that would explain a lot of his fall to the dark side.

guardienne wrote:@ashesforfoxes ... i'm also holding out hope that the movie is being coy for a reason. i'm having a pretty strict movies only policy which is helpful in that regard, whether the database says one thing or another.

i think ben was framed for something. i can see why han wouldn't say 'my son' in the scene bu i can't see why he can't say 'kylo ren'. that would have been a lot less ambiguous. for that reason i also think that it was someone else and somehow ben got tagged with it.

i have a feeling he had trouble containing his temper at the praxeum (what a great word!) and that people simply assumed it was him - just like some posters do now.

So, in the wake of the 'Bloodlines' synopsis and the posters, somebody on Tumblr was theorising that basically everything goes to crap once the Skywalker lineeage is revealed. This potentially brings down Leia's political career...but I wonder what it does to Luke?

What do people think when they realise that the man training a generation of new Jedi - powerful, dangerous - is the son of Vader? Are they frightened? Disgusted? Perhaps they decide to stop it?

This person thought that maybe the Jedi temple would be attacked by a mob, and that it would form the backbone of a Jamie 'Kingslayer' Lannister style backstory for Kylo.

My thought was...a little different. What would make Luke Skywalker run and hide when people needed him? He's no coward. Maybe, just maybe, HE did something terrible to try to protest his order, his padawans, in the midst of this attack and, appalled at what he did, at the potential for further violence he could commit, retreated to where nobody could find him.

And Kylo, with his immense feelings of abandonment, of disappointment in his family, ends up taking the flack (either by accident or design) and they all believe it. I don't want to white-wash Kylo - I think it's possible this turning point could have led to his eventual fall to darkness, but the road to hell is, as they say, paved with good intentions.

AnneNeville wrote:I have wondered whether Kylo has been avoiding his final initiation into the Dark Side for some reason, rather than Snoke denying it to him. It seems odd that he's 29 and has presumably had more than a decade of training on one side or the other and wasn't initiated into either. Clearly he isn't incompetent.

@anneneville I hadn't thought of that but it would be a much more interesting reason (and more conducive to the idea of Kylo as saboteur). He practically begs Snoke to teach him how to resist Rey and obtain the map from her mind, which reveals at least one of the things that he hasn't gained true mastery over (at least in comparison to Snoke). Perhaps he has a particular aversion to this, especially if he was at the receiving end of it.  

Blackcanary wrote:This person thought that maybe the Jedi temple would be attacked by a mob, and that it would form the backbone of a Jamie 'Kingslayer' Lannister style backstory for Kylo.

My thought was...a little different. What would make Luke Skywalker run and hide when people needed him? He's no coward. Maybe, just maybe, HE did something terrible to try to protest his order, his padawans, in the midst of this attack and, appalled at what he did, at the potential for further violence he could commit, retreated to where nobody could find him.

And Kylo, with his immense feelings of abandonment, of disappointment in his family, ends up taking the flack (either by accident or design) and they all believe it. I don't want to white-wash Kylo - I think it's possible this turning point could have led to his eventual fall to darkness, but the road to hell is, as they say, paved with good intentions.

@blackcanary as a huge ASOIAF fan this really rings my bell. I had read a few theories about the public/students/etc. turning against both Luke and Ben but I was assuming that Luke's absence from the academy was staged by whoever orchestrated the attack. If he was indeed present and/or Ben took the fall, there would be plenty of room for resentment there. TPTB have alluded to Kylo's motivations being a result of feeling abandoned by his family, and Luke factors in here somehow. All the concept art showed Luke as being a bit insane/haunted which makes you think he was exposed to/part of something that sent him over the edge. This is such a contrast to the "wise beyond his years" Luke shown at the end of Jedi (and in Shattered Empire) that it must have been horrific.

Also, hopefully this doesn't mean Kylo is going to lose his sword hand and end up in a hot tub with Phasma--but I'll take it.

My favorites so far are:

1. @panki's speculation that when Luke was away, the young Jedi turned on Ben for being Vader's grandson after that whole thing got leaked. I think it could've been Lor San Tekka who leaked it to Leia's political rival or Snoke.

2. Or my original speculation that Kylo got framed by Hux and Snoke for killing the Jedi when he couldn't do it himself to trap him from returning to his family. Which is why Snoke demanded he kill Han as proof that he's finally ready to continue his darkside training.

I just wrote a meta on this topic.

The Fall of Luke's Academy and the Rise of Kylo Ren

@kinbari your meta is perfect. Thanks for sharing. One of the things that I've wondered at since that footage of the so-called clan leader was cut down was the presence of Rey in the vision. I think it's above and beyond the general audience that it would happen to anyone else--so I am like you to believe it happened in the future. I have read 2 million and 1 theories about it happening in the past, especially because early concept art had Maz stealing the lightsaber from Kylo (from the clan who lit the grass on fire with it). Either way, it's important.

My crack theory is that it's value is that it is a link to the past (via psychometry) to Anakin and Obi Wan. Whats strange to me is that we have Yoda and Obi so obviously in Rey's Force vision, but we have no idea what Ben saw to make him believe in Vader still being there for him.

Perhaps it was just a lovely imagery for them to gravitate towards but I will forever be questioning where our Force Ghosts are . . . and where they went when the Force fell asleep.

ashesforfoxes wrote:@kinbari your meta is perfect. Thanks for sharing. One of the things that I've wondered at since that footage of the so-called clan leader was cut down was the presence of Rey in the vision. I think it's above and beyond the general audience that it would happen to anyone else--so I am like you to believe it happened in the future. I have read 2 million and 1 theories about it happening in the past, especially because early concept art had Maz stealing the lightsaber from Kylo (from the clan who lit the grass on fire with it). Either way, it's important.

My crack theory is that it's value is that it is a link to the past (via psychometry) to Anakin and Obi Wan. Whats strange to me is that we have Yoda and Obi so obviously in Rey's Force vision, but we have no idea what Ben saw to make him believe in Vader still being there for him.

Perhaps it was just a lovely imagery for them to gravitate towards but I will forever be questioning where our Force Ghosts are . . . and where they went when the Force fell asleep.

@ashesforfoxes

Yeah, I've made no secret of the fact that I'm really torn on thinking whether the "Kylo stabbing Knight and appearing to save Rey" part of the vision is from the past or the future.

I'd strongly be in the future camp, if it wasn't for PH's tweets linking it to the clan thing/Maz stealing the lightsaber. One thing that I've realized in the past day or two, though, is that most (if not all of PH's tweets) on this subject say something along the line of "the script says XYZ". I'm starting to wonder if they've possibly re-purposed that segment for Episode VIII or IX. I just can't see the clan thing holding enough importance to include with the rest of the things in that vision.

So here is my crack theory after watching the ending of TFA, Luke seems to know Rey so could it be that during the time he was building his Jedi Temple, Rey parent(s) could have contacted Luke, told him about Rey and her lineage, he then told Ben who could already having visions about a mystery girl aka Rey and this could build some expectations for Ben hence the "It's you" , for instance if Rey is a Kenobi then Ben of course would take some pride in having the name of her grandfather and he could not wait to me the young Rey but then her parent(s) left her at Jakku for some reason, presumably dead to other and this could be a blow to Luke and Ben, not to mention that when people knows that Vader is Luke and Leia's father, after all these things Ben could feel betrayed by his family, being treated badly by other padawans with the bad influence from Snoke, he could easily fall to the Dark Side right then and there, though I'm still believe the killing was a set up from Snoke and Ben was framed or unwillingly involved and Luke after such failures decided to exile himself


Sorry I'm kinda not myself while writing those

@iseeanisland

I'm 90% sure it's a future vision.  Ben is who lies ahead for Rey; most telling both Kylo scenes are the only parts of the vision where she was responded too.  The past has already happened and cannot be changed.  The future, however is wide open.

Plus Rey's part matches up with Luke's; both happened in the past and play a major part in who they are at the point of TFA;  Luke finding out his father is the evil Darth Vader and his academy is destroyed.  The latter sent him into exile which is where he starts off at in the films beginning.  Rey is abandoned on Jakku which shaped who she became at the movies start.

Seeing as how they will inevitably become teacher and student it would make sense to sync their parts of the vision, foreshadowing wise.  Her and Kylo's relationship is still malleable at this point.  Will they become reluctant enemies; bitter allies; passionate lovers;  or maybe all of the above? Who knows at this point? There's so many avenues for them to take before their stories endpoint.