Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 2

by **Kessel** Wed 19 Oct 2016, 1:31 pm

IoJovi wrote:
SanghaRen wrote:What is the definition of an anti? For me it's someone who actively voices his rejection of the ship and in mostly a disrespectful way. If we label anti everyone who does not like the idea of Reylo, well, we might be in for quite a ride and most probably until 2019 and beyond. To be honest, I am still wondering which magic RJ will use to have people root for Reylo. I think @spacebaby45678 already said something similar, but making a full Reylo - as opposed to my idea of Reylo which is an open end with heavy winking towards Reylo - seems like quite a difficult task. I obviously see the signs for it and I am ok with it - otherwise I would not be here -, but in my circle of relatives and friends, there's no one who sees it right now and I have a hard time picturing any of them liking it if it happens. Except maybe my mom who does not think it will happen but would have no issue if it did. The more I hear the voice from more casual viewers, the more I think that they will have to find a big "excuse" for Kylo's acts. Yes, I know, some of us do not like the idea of Kylo having excuses for his behavior, but the SW audience is quite a varied one and to get all of them on board, they might have to use a big hammer to nail that Redemption down and even a bigger one for Reylo. At the same time, AD said that - not the exact words - VIII is not dumbing things down so maybe it'll be a medium hammer. Wonder if it will be big enough though for the people who think Kylo is not a conflicted character... We'll see.
@SanghaRen

That's a very good point. People are unique and thus are and should be difficult to stamp a label on. I wouldn't label every Reywalker I come across as an anti. There are a gazillion Reywalkers in the GA, but I'm sure many of them are open minded once Reylation is removed. In fact, that's probably where the majority of the GA is going to fall into.

An anti is someone who not only rallys against reylo, but is also derisive towards Reylo shippers themselves. Nearly all of them blanket their abhorrent behavior that it's being done in the name of social justice, and they use the very real problems of either racism or domestic abuse as a facade. That's actually worse, considering it degrades real actual victims of both abuse and racism

@IoJovi

The above also describes what I would define as an "anti."

I don't generally have a problem with people who want a different story than me such as unredeemed Kylo, Reywalker, Finnrey, or main hero-jedi Finn (although I admit, I sometimes get frustrated with their views because they differ so much from my interpretation of the story). For example, I strongly disagree with anti-redemptionists, but I wouldn't attack or harass them.

When people attack and harass Reylo supporters, I think there's a serious problem and it becomes "anti" behavior. It's especially repugnant when antis try to hide their abuse behind a false sense of righteousness that has nothing to do with a fictional story.

by FrolickingFizzgig Wed 19 Oct 2016, 1:42 pm

Maria Antonietta wrote:
FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
guardienne wrote:i don't know why character psychology is brought up as an issue... i think analysing their relationships and the way their world is constructed around them is pretty much literary (and other mediums) staple? am i missing something?

i'm not a freudian analyst nor a jungian one and i'm doing this stuff in my spare time as a hobby of sorts. an obsessive all-consuming hobby, but nevertheless on an amateur level. and i enjoy it. just like others decide to endlessly have a pissing contest over which jedi is stronger. it's a way of being a fan.

my prevailing image from their kylo ren podcast (then) was the kid who took it to be his fault that his parents separated. that seemed really fitting to me and i remember getting into an argument with someone saying that ben had been the reason han and leia split up. and i thought that all these things are already laid at the character's feet. just so people can live in this comfortable bubble of preserved OT heroes.

and if star wars has any tradition i think it's deconstructing heroes and villains. and now it's time to deconstruct the OT heroes. and i think it is done in TFA in a way that feels right to me and fitting. and i hope they will continue to do this sensitively. and if people can't cope with that, well, it's not my problem.

@geralt_riv these names look decidedly welsh to me. other than that i have no idea what you're talking about.

@maria antonietta it's difficult to have a conversation about something without everyone having listened to it. i understand it's upsetting, or it was anyway, but they aren't doing a podcast to declare reylo an abusive ship. part of it is about online bullying, part of it is about their expectations for the new movies, and, like everyone else said, they are invested in star wars just as we are but they haven't spent time looking at the movie through reylo glasses. ad it's interesting to hear their pov.

after all, this is a listener's prompt so they don't have an agenda to attack a particular part of the fandom. so, it's not something anyone has to take personal.

i know my family are saying very similar things and they don't mean it in a nasty way, it's just that they aren't me. and part of me enjoys seeing how people react to certain things because i can no longer for example really see the movie, i just kinda know what's going to happen so i can play it in my head.
@guardienne
By psychological analysis and profiling I didn't mean simple character analysis. I meant attempting to diagnose a character with real-life disorders or mental illnesses in order to explain certain actions, behaviours or potential developments. Like, "Kylo is a psychopath therefore he cannot be redeemed, he should be put on death row and executed", "Kylo suffers from bipolar disorder, PTSD, depression, anxiety disorder, etc.", "Belle from Beauty and the Beast has Stockholm syndrome". Not only do I find it incredibly dumb, it's also lacking in sympathy and is even a little offensive because there are real people in this world suffering from mental illnesses. Humans are complicated, characters are simple. Characters are products of the human mind. They do what the human mind decides they should. They don't think for themselves or have behavioural patterns and therefore cannot be profiled or diagnosed with anything in order to explain how they should act or what should happen to them. That's not how storytelling works. IMO applying psychology to fiction is just another form of confusing fantasy with reality, and it's going to lead you to the wrong expectations every single time.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I love you #truewords

@Maria Antonietta
It's something I feel strongly about personally and I find it so unbelievably frustrating to see anybody try to dictate what should and shouldn't happen to a character based on what disorders or mental illnesses they "suffer with". It really bothers me that people think this will give them answers about how a character should develop.

I'll give an example of why it's so dumb, and I'll use Naruto because it seems to have some great, easy to understand examples.

Spoiler:

I hate the "Kylo is a psychopath" excuse more than any other because it's basically used as "proof" that he shouldn't be "redeemed" - that there can't be flashbacks, backstories, plot-twists and developments that will change how we as an audience view the character. And that's crazy! It's what storytelling is all about! Attempts to trivialize that through ridiculous psychological profiles just make me roll my eyes. And don't even get me started on the fact that Kylo doesn't even fit the "psychopath" or "sociopath" profile, unlike good old Gaara up there.

by MindAndMagic Wed 19 Oct 2016, 1:53 pm

It's funny that we had the exact same discussion some time ago, listing the same arguments. Too bad those they are addressed to will probably never pay attention or give it a second thought. Sorry for being repetitive, but I'll just restate what I said before. You cannot diagnose ficitonal characters with mental disorders and assess them the same way you would a real human being. As said above, they are first and foremost tools the creator uses to tell a story. A made-up story that doesn't harm anyone. It's not like Kylo is a real person, out to get people and torture them! It's truly ridiculous to use the psychopath label as proof that he will not be redeemed, disregarding genre, character and story specifics and what SW is all about as a whole. I'm fascinated by documentaries on complex psychological conditions, especially psychopathy, it's something we've discussed in my degree as well. However, while it's true that characters can be used as metaphors for the human condition, they're not real people and different rules apply in the world of fiction, especially in a children's fairtyle set in space as is the case with SW.

by guardienne Wed 19 Oct 2016, 2:13 pm

@frolickingfizzgig agree with your excellent points.

@iojovi i think i had a similar 'awakening' to your cousin when i found the original reylo thread. holy moly, that'd be EPIC! and it would make so much sense! can't really let that go.

by Irina de France Wed 19 Oct 2016, 3:15 pm

People calling Kylo a sociopath clearly never dealt with a sociopath before. Let me tell you - they're smart people, they know how to get under your skin, and they know how to turn your life into hell with a smile and make everyone else think you're the bad guy. Kylo just isn't a sociopath. At all. He tries to be the Big Bad, and he absolutely fails at it. If you really want to call a SW character a sociopath, try with Snoke or Palpatine.

Another thing that really annoys me is when people compare Kylo to Trump, like, REALLY?!?! ~~That's all you can come up with?!?!~~

by Reylo Lemon Wed 19 Oct 2016, 3:20 pm

Irina de France wrote:People calling Kylo a sociopath clearly never dealt with a sociopath before. Let me tell you - they're smart people, they know how to get under your skin, and they know how to turn your life into hell with a smile and make everyone else think you're the bad guy. Kylo just isn't a sociopath. At all. He tries to be the Big Bad, and he absolutely fails at it. If you really want to call a SW character a sociopath, try with Snoke or Palpatine.

Another thing that really annoys me is when people compare Kylo to Trump, like, REALLY?!?! ~~That's all you can come up with?!?!~~

@Irina de France

Shocked

by Geralt_Riv Wed 19 Oct 2016, 4:36 pm

vaderito wrote:@Geralt_Riv Just write the meta! The tease demands it.

@vaderito If I find time I will write. I thought about The Witcher books summary with comparison with The Force Awakens. Is it meta? I don't know. Laughing

I recommend The Witcher books wrote by Andrzej Sapkowski (and games too). Great story! It's a series of short stories and novels about Geralt of Rivia, White Wolf. The saga focuses on Geralt and Ciri, a chid of destiny. Laughing

Careful! The Witcher spoilers afead! Twisted Evil

When I saw the scene when Kylo took off his helmet for Rey and when he lost the fight at the end, I remembered one scene from the witcher (when Ciri defeated Cahir in the battle on Thanedd). Laughing

I will write more about that scene when I will have time.
Cahir was a secondary character. Romantic idealist who fall in love with Ciri, woman from his dreams (he had dreams about Ciri as adult female and she had nightmares about him). Laughing

He was an intelligence officer in the Nilfgaardian army who would later join Geralt's hansa. Cahir was from Vicovaro and had five siblings and would end up falling in love with Ciri after he saved her during the attack on Cintra (she was still a child that day). Cahir was supposed to capture Ciri and bring her back to Emhyr var Emreis, Deithwen Addan yn Carn aep Morvudd (in the Elder Speech - the White Flame Dancing on the Barrows of his Enemies) who was an Emperor of Nilfgaard. Smile

Cirilla Fiona Elen Riannon' (known as Ciri, the Lion Cub of Cintra, Zireael and the Lady of Time and Space), is the princess of Cintra, daughter of Pavetta and Duny (also known as the Urcheon of Erlenwald) and granddaughter of Queen Calanthe. She is also Geralt's and Yennefer's adopted daughter. Ciri is a descendant of Lara Dorren and has the Elder blood which gives her access to powers that allow her to cross space and time. Laughing

Official trailer was released! Laughing

Maybe it's too much for the trailer and I revealed best similarities for me (and maybe all similarities I remember now with Ciri and Cahir). Laughing

If I have more time I will write longer post (summary of the story) in other thread.

@panki You are right. Tell guardienne you are right. Laughing

@guardienne They are charcters from The Witcher. Nilfgaardian and Skellige dialects derive from Elder Speech.
The Elder Speech is based on many languages, Wlesh is one of them. In books there are names which sounds Welsh, French, etc.

by vaderito Wed 19 Oct 2016, 5:37 pm

@Geralt_Riv I'll have to get those books for holidays together with mara Jade books. I'm a fast reader so I need a lot. I'm sold on Elder Speech cause I'm a sucker for made-up languages. I could listen to High Valyrian and Dothraki forever. Ditto Quenya in Tolkien books.

by Geralt_Riv Thu 20 Oct 2016, 12:02 am

vaderito wrote:@Geralt_Riv I'll have to get those books for holidays together with mara Jade books. I'm a fast reader so I need a lot. I'm sold on Elder Speech cause I'm a sucker for made-up languages. I could listen to High Valyrian and Dothraki forever. Ditto Quenya in Tolkien books.

@vaderito
If you are a sucker for made-up languages I have a gift for you: http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Elder_Speech
There is an Elder Speech-English dictionary. Laughing

by guardienne Thu 20 Oct 2016, 2:45 am

@geralt_riv thanks for clarifying!

by vaderito Thu 20 Oct 2016, 5:16 am

Geralt_Riv wrote:
vaderito wrote:@Geralt_Riv I'll have to get those books for holidays together with mara Jade books. I'm a fast reader so I need a lot. I'm sold on Elder Speech cause I'm a sucker for made-up languages. I could listen to High Valyrian and Dothraki forever. Ditto Quenya in Tolkien books.
@vaderito
If you are a sucker for made-up languages I have a gift for you: http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Elder_Speech
There is an Elder Speech-English dictionary.

@Geralt_Riv

cheers

by Geralt_Riv Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:45 am

vaderito wrote:
Geralt_Riv wrote:
vaderito wrote:@Geralt_Riv I'll have to get those books for holidays together with mara Jade books. I'm a fast reader so I need a lot. I'm sold on Elder Speech cause I'm a sucker for made-up languages. I could listen to High Valyrian and Dothraki forever. Ditto Quenya in Tolkien books.
@vaderito
If you are a sucker for made-up languages I have a gift for you: http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Elder_Speech
There is an Elder Speech-English dictionary.
@Geralt_Riv

@vaderito You should read those books. You will love them. It will be better if you don't play The Witcher games until you finish books. Spoilers are there. Twisted Evil

I think now that I should not write the summary. There are some unexpected suprises in the story. I don't want to spoil it to you. Wink

Another similarity between the witcher and the force awakens is mind reading but I will not tell more (it's not romantic in any way). Possibly there is more than what I mentioned. I don't remember for now. If you want to find similarities between strories, read books. Maybe you will find more or you will not agree with what I wrote. Wink

After you read books, with our combined strenght we will bring meta to the forum! Twisted Evil

by vaderito Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:01 am

new rebel grrl is up!

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/10/episode-51-makingstarwars-nets-rebel-grrrl/

We talk the new Ahsoka novel
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story character posters
Is Evaan in Rogue One?
Random Rebel dude has a name (and his name is Anakin), according to Gareth Edwards
Star Wars Rebels Hera’s Heroes and The Last Battle discussion and anticipation
Star Wars: The Force Awakens new deleted scenes insight into Kylo Ren
Listener Questions

I'm listening.

by MindAndMagic Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:03 am

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/10/episode-51-makingstarwars-nets-rebel-grrrl/

Nothing special, I just saw the new edition and thought I'd check it out. At around 41 min. the girls discuss JJ's commentary on the Han/Ben confrontation: ''really cool clip''; ''Kylo being convinced to leave Snoke and go with Han''; ''Kylo knows that this is probably gonna end badly for him, but he can't accept that he is gonna die/his fate'' (if he stays with the FO); ''he wants to keep fighting for something better'' (interesting remark);

He [Kylo] is not stupid, he knows that Snoke is using him.

The most important quote:

I think it's really interesting for the character. I think it speaks for the possibilities of his redemption

They also talk about how Laurence and John Kasdan (father and son) took part in writing the scene, adding more emotion to it, and they're also working together on the young Han Solo movie.

At min 50 they answer a question about Rey's importance in the story and how some fans are under the impression that her central character status could be a misdirection (Jedi Finn fans). The girls disagree and think it's a real problem in storytelling nowadays, e.g. also in RO. They emphasise Rey's importance and how she's not gonna be just a love interest to aid another character's journey (mention of Kylo). Also some talk of Leia's heroic status in the OT and Padme in the PT, Campbell's heroine journey model, etc.

Clearly Finn's role is to do other things than be the huge Jedi hero. Why do you need to flip a character like that?
He is not the Luke Skywalker in the film. We get that from visual clues, cinematography and music.
We get a lot of cues for the discerning viewer that Rey is the Luke Skywalker of this. There is no getting around it. And they're not being terribly subtle about it.
You do have multiple hero journeys. But his [Finn's] is not the main one.
Nothing that she [Rey] did harmed anyone's evolution as a character.

It's strange how they (and presumably others as well) initially thought Kylo was trying to trick his father, which I strongly disagree with having in mind it wasn't a planned encounter. It was an emotional and heartbreaking moment for both of them because Kylo clearly hasn't forgotten his family in spite of all the manipulation. It's just sad that the real essence and subtlety of the scene went over some viewers' heads, but at least we have a confirmation now.

by Reylo Lemon Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:08 am

They answered my question, well, @vaderito question

by vaderito Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:09 am

Maria Antonietta wrote:They answered my question, well, @vaderito question

@Maria Antonietta

cheers

I'm listening at the moment.

queen

Awesome! So happy!

by Reylo Lemon Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:11 am

vaderito wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:They answered my question, well, @vaderito question
@Maria Antonietta

I'm listening at the moment.

Awesome! So happy!

@vaderito

Clearly, they put aside the power of love as a central feeling in sw. Bummer.

by vaderito Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:13 am

@Maria Antonietta Doesn't matter. They confirmed that Rey is the hero, end of discussion. Sorry Finn.

by Guest Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:17 am

vaderito wrote:@Maria Antonietta Doesn't matter. They confirmed that Rey is the hero, end of discussion. Sorry Finn.

@vaderito

I'm sure Finn will be the hero of his own story with the resistance Smile

by vaderito Sat 22 Oct 2016, 7:18 am

bela.mesecina wrote:
vaderito wrote:@Maria Antonietta Doesn't matter. They confirmed that Rey is the hero, end of discussion. Sorry Finn.
@vaderito

I'm sure Finn will be the hero of his own story with the resistance

@bela.mesecina

That's the point. His own story. Not hijacking Rey's as Jedi!Finn theorists want. That's not gonna happen. Rey's the Force plot, Finn's the Resistance, but Rey is also the main protagonist. As Grrls say, Rey's the Luke. End of.

people should listen to the podcast. there's awesome part about original idea to make Rey a little tipsy which causes the Force vision, but they changed that. It's in Unkar vs Chewie discussion, after Kylo one.

by ZioRen Sat 22 Oct 2016, 9:02 am

I don't see how a Force Sensitive!Finn would work anyways. Jedi!Finn people seem to want him to train in the Force along with Rey, but I just can't see how he'd fit in that particular plot with Snoke, Luke, and Kylo as well. He'd just feel shoved in there and he'd always play second fiddle to Rey, so why would Finn fans want that? He'll never be more important than Rey in the Force side of things, so it's better if his main arc lies elsewhere.

More importantly, it's better if his main arc follows from his upbringing. He was raised a stormtrooper and that should be the main tension he has to overcome, since he hasn't really confronted it. Force sensitivity and that plot is a whole other ballgame.

by Mana Sat 22 Oct 2016, 9:08 am

ZioRen wrote:I don't see how a Force Sensitive!Finn would work anyways. Jedi!Finn people seem to want him to train in the Force along with Rey, but I just can't see how he'd fit in that particular plot with Snoke, Luke, and Kylo as well. He'd just feel shoved in there and he'd always play second fiddle to Rey, so why would Finn fans want that? He'll never be more important than Rey in the Force side of things, so it's better if his main arc lies elsewhere.

More importantly, it's better if his main arc follows from his upbringing. He was raised a stormtrooper and that should be the main tension he has to overcome, since he hasn't really confronted it. Force sensitivity and that plot is a whole other ballgame.

@ZioRen

if the bolded didn't happen with the writers exploring his stormtrooper background, that would be an extreme waste of potential. That's where Finn's story lies and I don't know why some people want to shove him into the force story.

by ZioRen Sat 22 Oct 2016, 9:11 am

Mana wrote:
ZioRen wrote:I don't see how a Force Sensitive!Finn would work anyways. Jedi!Finn people seem to want him to train in the Force along with Rey, but I just can't see how he'd fit in that particular plot with Snoke, Luke, and Kylo as well. He'd just feel shoved in there and he'd always play second fiddle to Rey, so why would Finn fans want that? He'll never be more important than Rey in the Force side of things, so it's better if his main arc lies elsewhere.

More importantly, it's better if his main arc follows from his upbringing. He was raised a stormtrooper and that should be the main tension he has to overcome, since he hasn't really confronted it. Force sensitivity and that plot is a whole other ballgame.
@ZioRen

if the bolded didn't happen with the writers exploring his stormtrooper background, that would be an extreme waste of potential. That's where Finn's story lies and I don't know why some people want to shove him into the force story.

@Mana

Yep! I still think his main story will be destroying the First Order from within by leading a Stormtrooper rebellion. I can't think of why else he'd have that particular background, or why else they'd put emphasis multiple times on the fact that troopers are now raised from young childhood and brainwashed. Plus it's something that's incredibly important and heroic within the Star Wars universe, so Finn stands his own ground as a protagonist.

Like you said, if they don't make this the center of Finn's story to some degree, then that's just bad writing and a waste of that background.

by vaderito Sat 22 Oct 2016, 9:25 am

Mana wrote:
ZioRen wrote:I don't see how a Force Sensitive!Finn would work anyways. Jedi!Finn people seem to want him to train in the Force along with Rey, but I just can't see how he'd fit in that particular plot with Snoke, Luke, and Kylo as well. He'd just feel shoved in there and he'd always play second fiddle to Rey, so why would Finn fans want that? He'll never be more important than Rey in the Force side of things, so it's better if his main arc lies elsewhere.

More importantly, it's better if his main arc follows from his upbringing. He was raised a stormtrooper and that should be the main tension he has to overcome, since he hasn't really confronted it. Force sensitivity and that plot is a whole other ballgame.
@ZioRen

if the bolded didn't happen with the writers exploring his stormtrooper background, that would be an extreme waste of potential. That's where Finn's story lies and I don't know why some people want to shove him into the force story.

@Mana

Because they think he would block Rey from being the main hero. Remember Jedi Librarian Rey? She should sit at the Council and research books while he's out kicking a** and leading the charge? That's the whole point behind "Rey's a misdirection, Finn will be revealed as the real hero". They don't want a girl to be more than a hero's LI.

That's one reason. The other is that shippers feel correctly that separate plot = bye,bye romance. So they want him shoe-horned into her plot
in order for romance to develop. Also, because reylos love the idea of two FS romance that movies didn't explore before, so they are trying to make Finn the other FS to fit the bill.

by Darth Dingbat Sat 22 Oct 2016, 10:12 am

Maria Antonietta wrote:
vaderito wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:They answered my question, well, @vaderito question
@Maria Antonietta

I'm listening at the moment.

Awesome! So happy!
@vaderito

Clearly, they put aside the power of love as a central feeling in sw. Bummer.

@Maria Antonietta

Well, luckily they're not writing the story Wink

Congrats on the answer!

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