Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

After I first saw TFA in the theaters, I was wondering whether anyone else saw what I saw in Rey and Kylo, so I went on the internet, where people were debating (of course) whether they were long-lost siblings or long-lost cousins. I remember a lone dissenter (who hopefully has made his or her way to this forum by now) pointing out the romantic possibilities of Reylo, only to be shot down by someone who said that Rey and Finn were obviously going to be an item.

The Reylo fan's reply to that stuck with me--s/he basically said that Finn and Rey would be great and adorable, but Rey and Kylo "would be for the ages." Here was someone else who saw what I was seeing-- this is not real everyday life, but an epic story, and this intense and fractured connection that Rey and Kylo had could be the beginning of a love story for the ages.

So, here's my question: what do you think it would take to pull that off? His redemption, obviously, but what else? It has also gotten me thinking about which pairs, happy or tragic, in literature and film, have that quality for me. I thought it might be a fun thing to discuss.

Lily Snape wrote:After I first saw TFA in the theaters, I was wondering whether anyone else saw what I saw in Rey and Kylo, so I went on the internet, where people were debating (of course) whether they were long-lost siblings or long-lost cousins. I remember a lone dissenter (who hopefully has made his or her way to this forum by now) pointing out the romantic possibilities of Reylo, only to be shot down by someone who said that Rey and Finn were obviously going to be an item.

The Reylo fan's reply to that stuck with me--s/he basically said that Finn and Rey would be great and adorable, but Rey and Kylo "would be for the ages." Here was someone else who saw what I was seeing-- this is not real everyday life, but an epic story, and this intense and fractured connection that Rey and Kylo had could be the beginning of a love story for the ages.

So, here's my question: what do you think it would take to pull that off? His redemption, obviously, but what else? It has also gotten me thinking about which pairs, happy or tragic, in literature and film, have that quality for me. I thought it might be a fun thing to discuss.

@Lily Snape

lets put it this way - Lizzie and Darcy are for the ages. Whatstheirfaces from Mansfield Park are not. Cuteness isn't for the ages. You need substance, fight against all odds that leads to trasformative love on both sides for a romance to be "for the ages".

I think they've already started to pull it off, I mean look at the vast amount of content that people have created for them. To really pull it off, I think they're going to have to have to drum up the angst. Kylo's torment and ascending him to anti-hero status through tribulations and self-reflection. Rey's morality and it's slippery slope, her own self-discovery. The connection they both mutually seem to feel but neither asked for. The will-they-won't-they factor that gets people on the edge of the seats, whether they're for it or against it. Out of all the romantic pairings in Star Wars movies, Rey and Kylo's would be the most difficult to get to but I think that's what makes it so great. There's always a sense of grandeur about those classic love stories that past the test of time and it's not because they're easy. One of my favourite moment in Pride and Prejudice is when they're in the rain and Elizabeth rejects Mr. Darcy's marriage proposal because of the very fact that she doesn't make it easy for him at all. It's heart-wrenching in both the best and worst way but it makes the end so much more satisfying.

vaderito wrote:

Lily Snape wrote:After I first saw TFA in the theaters, I was wondering whether anyone else saw what I saw in Rey and Kylo, so I went on the internet, where people were debating (of course) whether they were long-lost siblings or long-lost cousins. I remember a lone dissenter (who hopefully has made his or her way to this forum by now) pointing out the romantic possibilities of Reylo, only to be shot down by someone who said that Rey and Finn were obviously going to be an item.

The Reylo fan's reply to that stuck with me--s/he basically said that Finn and Rey would be great and adorable, but Rey and Kylo "would be for the ages." Here was someone else who saw what I was seeing-- this is not real everyday life, but an epic story, and this intense and fractured connection that Rey and Kylo had could be the beginning of a love story for the ages.

So, here's my question: what do you think it would take to pull that off? His redemption, obviously, but what else? It has also gotten me thinking about which pairs, happy or tragic, in literature and film, have that quality for me. I thought it might be a fun thing to discuss.

@Lily Snape

lets put it this way - Lizzie and Darcy are for the ages. Whatstheirfaces from Mansfield Park are not. Cuteness isn't for the ages. You need substance, fight against all odds that leads to trasformative love on both sides for a romance to be "for the ages".

@vaderito

There's a reason why Romeo & Juliet; Heathcliffe & Catherine Earnshaw; Julius Caesar & Cleopatra are some of the most famous couples in history. Often known by people who have never even read the stories their romances happened in.

I'm hazy on details, but some sort of fundamental shift in the Force.

Darth Dementor wrote:
@vaderito

There's a reason why Romeo & Juliet; Heathcliffe & Catherine Earnshaw; Julius Caesar & Cleopatra are some of the most famous couples in history. Often known by people who have never even read the stories their romances happened in.

@Darth Dementor

Greta point also for bringing up Caesar and Cleopatra and Anthony and Cleopatra. People are draw to complicated, dramatic stories where couples go against anything, from family to history itself.

Well, it's simple but at the same time not simple at all... they need to deliver. Think of all the books you've read that started out great but fizzled out and/or fell flat on their faces towards the end. Yeah. Very disappointing when that happens.

Reylo already has all the makings of an iconic love story. Not only that, but it has the mythical trappings that most "ordinary" love stories - however iconic - lack. Pride and Prejudice is entirely dependent on Austen's mastery of form, wit and characterisation; she couldn't tap on archetypes to get an immediate gut reaction from her audience - to a large extent, she created an archetype for future audiences.

The mythical trappings make me more confident that Reylo won't fall flat, because they already have a framework of archetypes and symbolism to build upon. Even if they followed, say, Beauty and the Beast in a most derivative, unimaginative way possible, it would still satisfy on some level. So it would actually be pretty difficult to screw this up totally, I think. The worst thing they could do is to Twilight-ify the story in the "passive maiden meets dangerous male" sense, and that's not going to happen - not least because that's not at all compatible with the dynamic we got in TFA, IMO. (Mind you, even "passive maiden meets dangerous male" stories can be "for the ages" - even if they're not for today's widely approved tastes and sensibilities.)

From where I'm standing, the biggest risk of disappointment would be in the understated approach. But after Rogue One, I'm pretty sure Lucasfilm will pull out all the stops and go big and epic.

The major romances of the saga films (I think that's the correct term) were between a force-sensitive and a non-force-sensitive (Padme/Anakin and Han/Leia). I think it's pretty significant that they appear to be setting up two force-sensitives for the big romance of this trilogy. That does sound much more interesting than Finn and Rey.

@vaderito: there's a reason why a large part of the audience would have wanted Fanny to end up with Henry Crawford instead

Sacrebleu wrote:The major romances of the saga films (I think that's the correct term) were between a force-sensitive and a non-force-sensitive (Padme/Anakin and Han/Leia). I think it's pretty significant that they appear to be setting up two force-sensitives for the big romance of this trilogy. That does sound much more interesting than Finn and Rey.

@Sacrebleu

This.

It would be very significant to see a FS couple for the first time in the movies. The contrast between Dark and Light would reach new levels. In the OT, we had Light/Dark between son and father (Luke and Darth Vader). In the PT, we had it between two best friends (Anakin and Obi-Wan). So... we already had the familiar dynamic and the fraternity dynamic. What's left? Yeah, a romantic one.

I also think Kylo and Rey have the potential for a very tragic and intense dynamic, which is where most of the romances mentioned here as iconic (Romeo and Juliet, Cleopatra and Julius) thrive. The possibilities are endless: Kylo, obsessed and in love with, could sacrifice himself for her; Rey, desperate to ignore her feelings, could become overwhelmed by them and shift sides...

Piper Maru wrote:

Sacrebleu wrote:The major romances of the saga films (I think that's the correct term) were between a force-sensitive and a non-force-sensitive (Padme/Anakin and Han/Leia).  I think it's pretty significant that they appear to be setting up two force-sensitives for the big romance of this trilogy.  That does sound much more interesting than Finn and Rey.

@Sacrebleu

This.

It would be very significant to see a FS couple for the first time in the movies. The contrast between Dark and Light would reach new levels. In the OT, we had Light/Dark between son and father (Luke and Darth Vader). In the PT, we had it between two best friends (Anakin and Obi-Wan). So... we already had the familiar dynamic and the fraternity dynamic. What's left? Yeah, a romantic one.

I also think Kylo and Rey have the potential for a very tragic and intense dynamic, which is where most of the romances mentioned here as iconic (Romeo and Juliet, Cleopatra and Julius) thrive. The possibilities are endless: Kylo, obsessed and in love with, could sacrifice himself for her; Rey, desperate to ignore her feelings, could become overwhelmed by them and shift sides...

@Piper Maru

Exactly.  Very well said.  Finn and Rey were cute and amusing, I enjoyed their scenes together.  But in terms of explosive chemistry, potential for epic love story, and endless possibilities and permutations, there is absolutely no contest in my opinion.  Kylo and Rey are by far the more fascinating pairing.

Rey and Finn were never set up for romance anyway and many people picked up on that and moved on. No wonder we are getting FinnTran as a more traditional romance that rolls better with action scenes. They seem set up to be the Captasha of the saga if Captasha actually happened (I have a feeling that KMT is a bit of a bad girl). Which will please many fans cause that should be super fun.

Reylo seems poised to be transcending and something new for SW and by that I mean new even for EU (where there were Revan/Bastila) and new canon (Vos/Ventress).

@nemapasara

I think they've already started to pull it off, I mean look at the vast amount of content that people have created for them.

That's by design. Reylo scenes were filmed in a way to pop up and there's, of course, the never-ending appeal of Dark/Light in many cultures.
They were supposed to intrigue, it isn't a surprise to LF that they took off so well.

vaderito wrote:Rey and Finn were never set up for romance anyway and many people picked up on that and moved on. No wonder we are getting FinnTran as a more traditional romance that rolls better with action scenes. They seem set up to be the Captasha of the saga if Captasha actually happened (I have a feeling that KMT is a bit of a bad girl). Which will please many fans cause that should be super fun.

Reylo seems poised to be transcending and something new for SW and by that I mean new even for EU (where there were Revan/Bastila) and new canon (Vos/Ventress).

@vaderito

I agree.  I mentioned Finn and Rey only because I think it's so highly doubtful that Rey will not have a love story in this trilogy and the only possibilities in TFA are Kylo and Finn given that she had zero scenes with Poe.  I think Finn and Rey's scenes accomplished precisely what they were designed to accomplish, namely a callback to the spirit of A New Hope with strangers thrown together in dangerous circumstances and forced to battle a big bad enemy together.  And out of this a sweet camaraderie and friendship develop.  I don't see any scope for drama in their continued sweetness.

vaderito wrote:@nemapasara

I think they've already started to pull it off, I mean look at the vast amount of content that people have created for them.

That's by design. Reylo scenes were filmed in a way to pop up and there's, of course, the never-ending appeal of Dark/Light in many cultures.
They were supposed to intrigue, it isn't a surprise to LF that they took off so well.

@vaderito

It's why they also keep it close to the chest, in my opinion, and I prefer that. I don't see them promoting the Rey and Kylo relationship leading up to VIII, except in a purely antagonistic way. I see them using FinnTran as a kind of trajectory to have people not question Reylo as much. I think John's "slip up" wasn't exactly an accident.

nemapasara wrote:

It's why they also keep it close to the chest, in my opinion, and I prefer that. I don't see them promoting the Rey and Kylo relationship leading up to VIII, except in a purely antagonistic way. I see them using FinnTran as a kind of trajectory to have people not question Reylo as much. I think John's "slip up" wasn't exactly an accident.

@nemapasara

John didn't slip because he didn't backtrack. He actually firmly stood by what he said.

vaderito wrote:

nemapasara wrote:

It's why they also keep it close to the chest, in my opinion, and I prefer that. I don't see them promoting the Rey and Kylo relationship leading up to VIII, except in a purely antagonistic way. I see them using FinnTran as a kind of trajectory to have people not question Reylo as much. I think John's "slip up" wasn't exactly an accident.

@nemapasara

John didn't slip because he didn't backtrack. He actually firmly stood by what he said.

@vaderito

Didn't he even say something like "oh yeah, have you read the script?" to someone on Twitter?

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Didn't he even say something like "oh yeah, have you read the script?" to someone on Twitter?

@Darth Dingbat

Yep. That's what I'm talking about. Some disgruntled shipper or whatever accused him that he said "tons of BS to variety" and John replied: "oh yeah? have you read the script?" Yep.

vaderito wrote:

nemapasara wrote:

It's why they also keep it close to the chest, in my opinion, and I prefer that. I don't see them promoting the Rey and Kylo relationship leading up to VIII, except in a purely antagonistic way. I see them using FinnTran as a kind of trajectory to have people not question Reylo as much. I think John's "slip up" wasn't exactly an accident.

@nemapasara

John didn't slip because he didn't backtrack. He actually firmly stood by what he said.

@vaderito

Slipped up in the sense that it gave us more information than we expected. He wouldn't have said anything about his and KMT's dynamic if he was told not to. I think it was on purpose because he didn't backtrack. It's not like JJ backtracking on his comment about Rey's parents not being in TFA.

nemapasara wrote:

Slipped up in the sense that it gave us more information than we expected. He wouldn't have said anything about his and KMT's dynamic if he was told not to. I think it was on purpose because he didn't backtrack. It's not like JJ backtracking on his comment about Rey's parents not being in TFA.

@nemapasara

Yep, that's classic nipping in the bud. Before things get out of control, you tell people that it's not happening. Likewise, if Reylo had been related, LF would have nipped it in the bud too. Instead, we have DR bring it up un-prompted, Judi Dench being told to ask about it in a comedy skit, SW official page calling their connection "mysterious" and featuring well-known image that social media uses to debunk relation, JJ calling their relationship "very interesting" and making all those fairy-tale references. That's almost encouraging people to think in that direction.

@vaderito

The funny thing is that people were already connecting Reylo to fairytales long before JJ's commentary. He just validated people's interpretations. When things like that happen, it usually means good things.

nemapasara wrote:@vaderito

The funny thing is that people were already connecting Reylo to fairytales long before JJ's commentary. He just validated people's interpretations. When things like that happen, it usually means good things.

@nemapasara

Exactly. Like, reylos were ridiculed for saying that Kylo looked like a Prince, that Rey run down the stairs like Cinderella, that they were like characters from a fairytale. And than JJ commentary repeated all that. It's just that the movie is made for people who understand those stories.

vaderito wrote:

nemapasara wrote:@vaderito

The funny thing is that people were already connecting Reylo to fairytales long before JJ's commentary. He just validated people's interpretations. When things like that happen, it usually means good things.

@nemapasara

Exactly. Like, reylos were ridiculed for saying that Kylo looked like a Prince, that Rey run down the stairs like Cinderella, that they were like characters from a fairytale. And than JJ commentary repeated all that. It's just that the movie is made for people who understand those stories.

@vaderito

I know I'm a bit extra but I actually approach this as a sort of game. This is me every time we score a point.

And this will be me when we finally win the whole match. In the cinema.

@darth Dingbat indeed. Every time there's an official hint that things are going that way, antis double down on Delusionville. So game indeed.

Darth Dingbat wrote:And this will be me when we finally win the whole match. In the cinema.

@Darth Dingbat