Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

I think what pulled me in to investigate Reylo in the first place was how they wrote in this yearning and hunger in both characters.

Rey isn't from a perfect family or past. She's lonely. She lives alone and most likely battles with issues of self worth and neglect. She holds on to a hopeless dream that her family will come back for her, enough to stay perfectly grounded in a horrible place like Jakku, being starved and cheated by a slug when she has the ability and choice to leave for a better world.

Maz said it best, she wants belonging. She wants someone to finally come back for her.

And then you have Kylo, sent away with his uncle and lost by some power that ended up ruining his life. Estranged from his family, murderer, committing crimes that he will have to answer for. He's lonely, obviously haunted by what he has become, and his deepest insecurity is also dealing with self worth: not being good enough. Not being strong enough.

Why put these deep-rooted needs in two characters that will mean nothing to each other? Why put Kylo opposite of Rey with them both needing the same things? They complete each other. They're both starved. How can someone not find that interesting?

That's what makes them for the ages for me. It's not just a case of "She's beautiful, I love her." It's deeper than that. It's more like "She's the light that I will follow home."

Xylo Ren wrote:I think what pulled me in to investigate Reylo in the first place was how they wrote in this yearning and hunger in both characters.

Rey isn't from a perfect family or past. She's lonely. She lives alone and most likely battles with issues of self worth and neglect. She holds on to a hopeless dream that her family will come back for her, enough to stay perfectly grounded in a horrible place like Jakku, being starved and cheated by a slug when she has the ability and choice to leave for a better world.

Maz said it best, she wants belonging. She wants someone to finally come back for her.

And then you have Kylo, sent away with his uncle and lost by some power that ended up ruining his life. Estranged from his family, murderer, committing crimes that he will have to answer for. He's lonely, obviously haunted by what he has become, and his deepest insecurity is also dealing with self worth: not being good enough. Not being strong enough.

Why put these deep-rooted needs in two characters that will mean nothing to each other? Why put Kylo opposite of Rey with them both needing the same things? They complete each other. They're both starved. How can someone not find that interesting?

That's what makes them for the ages for me. It's not just a case of "She's beautiful, I love her." It's deeper than that. It's more like "She's the light that I will follow home."

@Xylo Ren

This summarizes completely why I love this pairing.  Through each other, neither one of them will be lonely again.  The only thing I would add is these two are also the only ones who know each other's deepest secrets and fears.  They will never have the ability to lie to one another.  Through this they'll have an understanding neither one has ever experienced from any one else.

It truly will be a romance for the ages of epic proportions.

It's almost a year since I decided to ditch the gym on a Saturday and finally went to go see that new Star Wars movie all my friends said was fun but a total re-hash. And just for you guys, my review afterwards from an IM discussion with a friend that I just ran across in my inbox

snufkin wrote:Sadly, other than meeting up with one friend for dinner, my social life has been pretty lame. All of this stuff going on has kind of zapped my interest in being around people at the moment. I did however finally (2 months later) go see the new Star Wars movie and thought it was pretty awesome. Like I loved the original one when I saw it as a small kid but re-seeing it as an adult on a date where the guy I was with LOVED it and I feel asleep, kind of closed a door on my interest. But after all the crap of the past few weeks, I just wanted to go mindlessly enjoy myself for awhile and had my expectations more than overwhelmed. At least after 2 months, I get to read all of the Feminist think pieces although I don't know if I need to turn in my feminist card for admitting that I personally hope that Space Snape/dude from Girls is not a blood relative of Rey so they can at least make out once. Which I'm sure probably would make people have the same reaction as some of my old coworkers in Seattle, who got upset during a discussion about the Harry Potter books and one person was like "I think Draco Malfoy is hot." And when I say upset, I mean there was a huge argument.

snufkin wrote:It's almost a year since I decided to ditch the gym on a Saturday and finally went to go see that new Star Wars movie all my friends said was fun but a total re-hash. And just for you guys, my review afterwards from an IM discussion with a friend that I just ran across in my inbox

snufkin wrote:Sadly, other than meeting up with one friend for dinner, my social life has been pretty lame. All of this stuff going on has kind of zapped my interest in being around people at the moment. I did however finally (2 months later) go see the new Star Wars movie and thought it was pretty awesome. Like I loved the original one when I saw it as a small kid but re-seeing it as an adult on a date where the guy I was with LOVED it and I feel asleep, kind of closed a door on my interest. But after all the crap of the past few weeks, I just wanted to go mindlessly enjoy myself for awhile and had my expectations more than overwhelmed. At least after 2 months, I get to read all of the Feminist think pieces although I don't know if I need to turn in my feminist card for admitting that I personally hope that Space Snape/dude from Girls is not a blood relative of Rey so they can at least make out once. Which I'm sure probably would make people have the same reaction as some of my old coworkers in Seattle, who got upset during a discussion about the Harry Potter books and one person was like "I think Draco Malfoy is hot." And when I say upset, I mean there was a huge argument.

@snufkin

Last month I got to see my own very fresh thoughts on TFA rehashed via FB memories.  The one that makes me still laugh is where a "friend" was trying to tell me she had read the leaked script for VIII and Rey was definitely Luke's daughter.  No question.  I responded that I had read four "leaked scripts" and they were all different.  Her next response was that she actually had a friend working on both VIII and IX behind the scenes.  I don't know this person IRL, only through a vaping group for women only.  Well, Reygate happened in April, and that coincided with one of the most satisfying blocks I've had to date...

I looked up my original TFA review after the first viewing, and this is what I wrote:

Ren’s scenes with Rey have a weird compelling energy to them, not attraction exactly but certainly some kind of connection, that makes me interested in where these two characters might go in the next movies. wrote:

Later I decided that there was at least a one-sided attraction going on, but the above is pretty much the only thing in my otherwise mixed-negative original review that hints on interest in future ST movies.

IoJovi wrote:

@snufkin

Last month I got to see my own very fresh thoughts on TFA rehashed via FB memories.  The one that makes me still laugh is where a "friend" was trying to tell me she had read the leaked script for VIII and Rey was definitely Luke's daughter.  No question.  I responded that I had read four "leaked scripts" and they were all different.  Her next response was that she actually had a friend working on both VIII and IX behind the scenes.  I don't know this person IRL, only through a vaping group for women only.  Well, Reygate happened in April, and that coincided with one of the most satisfying blocks I've had to date... :lol:

@IoJovi

I was going to respond that my social media mutes have more to do with politics than Star Wars (people at both end of the spectrums). Except then I remembered the post-truth environment we live in and how a lot of people insist that because they saw something "on the Internet" means that it's true. It's all the same, isn't it? God what a depressing thought.

IDK, if somebody said that to me, I'd probably be snotty and ask them how much of their belief comes from being gullible and how much of it comes from being a prude.

OK, answering my own question, which I've been pondering since posting it. . And thanks for all the replies, which are interesting and thought-provoking, as ever.

Obviously Rey and Kylo/Ben are on opposite sides now, giving them a major obstacle to overcome, which seems to be kind of a prerequisite for the kind of love story that really sticks with people. I think, though, that they will have to come to some sort of really deep understanding that few others would share-- I think she would have to come close to falling to the Dark side, and that he, at some great risk to himself, would have to help her come back. I think only then would they really have that kind of shared understanding, since his fall to the Dark side, his likely lifelong battle with that temptation, and his agony over what it has led him to do are so essential to his personality. There's a difference between Rey being aware of this dark part of a redeemed Kylo's history, and Rey feeling something of what he went through and what it took to turn away from it.

I re-read Wuthering Heights a few years ago, as an adult, and I know perfectly well that in real life, people who behave like Heathcliff and Catherine would drive everyone around them nuts. I'm reading it going, "Everyone in this book has a personality disorder, and they're really good at ruining each other's lives." Especially the couple at the center of it. But I remember reading it in high school and finding it so incredibly romantic, and the line that stuck out to me then and still does is when Catherine says, "He is more myself than I am. Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same." This is what I'm talking about -- Rey and Kylo already have the loneliness in common, her straightforward search for belonging and his twisted one, but the struggle with the Dark side is such a big part of his life that I think that we will have to see it in Rey too for them to really have a love story for the ages. I think he would have to turn her back, and turn himself in the process.

Here's hoping, anyway. It would make for one hell of a good story.

When I went to see TFA, the first thing I did when I got back home was to go to Google thinking, "I wonder if I'm the only one or did anyone else see anything weird going on between... OH."

Aaand answering my own post again. I think a Rey and Kylo love story that would stand the test of time would emphatically not be the one that antis seem to think Reylos want: Kylo is bad, Rey is good, the good girl falls for the bad boy, and he's redeemed by the love of a good woman. Stereotypical, boring, and I wouldn't buy it as anything with staying power-- he could go right back to the Dark side if and when things went sour with Rey if impressing the girl was his only reason for rejecting it. I think they have to come to terms with each other's darkness and their own.

Darth Dingbat wrote:When I went to see TFA, the first thing I did when I got back home was to go to Google thinking, "I wonder if I'm the only one or did anyone else see anything weird going on between... OH."

@Darth Dingbat

I wish I knew you back then.
It would had been TWO "crazy" Darths in the galaxy - not only one (me).

LOL

Lily Snape wrote:OK, answering my own question, which I've been pondering since posting it. . And thanks for all the replies, which are interesting and thought-provoking, as ever.

Obviously Rey and Kylo/Ben are on opposite sides now, giving them a major obstacle to overcome, which seems to be kind of a prerequisite for the kind of love story that really sticks with people. I think, though, that they will have to come to some sort of really deep understanding that few others would share-- I think she would have to come close to falling to the Dark side, and that he, at some great risk to himself, would have to help her come back. I think only then would they really have that kind of shared understanding, since his fall to the Dark side, his likely lifelong battle with that temptation, and his agony over what it has led him to do are so essential to his personality. There's a difference between Rey being aware of this dark part of a redeemed Kylo's history, and Rey feeling something of what he went through and what it took to turn away from it.

@Lily Snape

I think they already have some kind of "understanding". Rey obviously hates him for killing Han Solo, but she saw his deepest fears and insecurities, and knowing Rey, she probably empathized with him there. Kylo clearly was enamored and felt compassionate towards Rey, being able to relate to her loneliness and her dreams.

For these two people, this is very rare. Rey grew up by herself without friends and family, she never let anyone in, and this guy was the first who got inside her mind -- quite literally. This is fuel for "I hate you but you see me for who I am".

Kylo, on the other hand, was lonely, grumpy, task-oriented and always got things the way he wanted (when it comes to getting the job done). He is the one who never fails when it comes to read the minds of prisoners or get info. Rey comes along and ruins this. She is snarky, she has no respect for his authority, and not only she resists him, but is able to see his deepest fears and insecurities -- things that not even Snoke or people he works with for years were able to see. This, my friends, is irresistible. It's a mix of "I love you because I can't control you" and "you're the only one who understands me".

The fact that this "mutual understanding" happened by chance is even more powerful, because they will try to resist it. And everyone knows what happens when you try to resist a forbidden fruit

I love this topic. It's led me to think back about when I first discovered Reylo and to revisit all the wonderful (and totally unexpected) first Reylo feels from over a year ago. Like most people, the unusual and compelling dynamic between Rey and Kylo took me totally by surprise. I could just see there was a special connection between them and I just wanted to see where it would lead, but I did not see the dynamic as a familial one. It just didn't feel that way. I understand how the OT has a history of unexpected familial connections with Luke, Leia and Vader, but that was just not the vibe I got with Rey and Kylo. Luke and Leia never had that strange and heavy vibe Rey and Kylo do.

At this point, imo, it would be so anticlimactic, awkward and a waste of potential if that strange and mysterious connection between Rey and Kylo just meant they're both Skywalkers.

Kessel89 wrote:I love this topic. It's led me to think back about when I first discovered Reylo and to revisit all the wonderful (and totally unexpected) first Reylo feels from over a year ago. Like most people, the unusual and compelling dynamic between Rey and Kylo took me totally by surprise. I could just see there was a special connection between them and I just wanted to see where it would lead, but I did not see the dynamic as a familial one. It just didn't feel that way.  I understand how the OT has a history of unexpected familial connections with Luke, Leia and Vader, but that was just not the vibe I got with Rey and Kylo.  Luke and Leia never had that strange and heavy vibe Rey and Kylo do.

At this point, imo, it would be so anticlimactic, awkward and a waste of potential if that strange and mysterious connection between Rey and Kylo just meant they're both Skywalkers.

@Kessel89

I never got that familial vibe from Reylo, even at my lowest point of doubt. When I first saw TFA, it went by in a blur but I knew I loved it and the one thing that caught my eye was the Rey and Kylo dynamic. It felt like the movie went so fast in anticipation of these two people meeting and than the moment they finally meet, everything slows down. Their relationship felt emphasized in a "these two were destined to meet" not "these two are cousins". If it wasn't for the fandom, I would've never even entertained the thought that they could be related.

nemapasara wrote:

Kessel89 wrote:I love this topic. It's led me to think back about when I first discovered Reylo and to revisit all the wonderful (and totally unexpected) first Reylo feels from over a year ago. Like most people, the unusual and compelling dynamic between Rey and Kylo took me totally by surprise. I could just see there was a special connection between them and I just wanted to see where it would lead, but I did not see the dynamic as a familial one. It just didn't feel that way.  I understand how the OT has a history of unexpected familial connections with Luke, Leia and Vader, but that was just not the vibe I got with Rey and Kylo.  Luke and Leia never had that strange and heavy vibe Rey and Kylo do.

At this point, imo, it would be so anticlimactic, awkward and a waste of potential if that strange and mysterious connection between Rey and Kylo just meant they're both Skywalkers.

@Kessel89

I never got that familial vibe from Reylo, even at my lowest point of doubt. When I first saw TFA, it went by in a blur but I knew I loved it and the one thing that caught my eye was the Rey and Kylo dynamic. It felt like the movie went so fast in anticipation of these two people meeting and than the moment they finally meet, everything slows down. Their relationship felt emphasized in a "these two were destined to meet" not "these two are cousins". If it wasn't for the fandom, I would've never even entertained the thought that they could be related.

@nemapasara


Same. I never got the "lost relative" vibe from them. Their dynamic is heavy and completely different from Luke & Leia. Luke was enamored with Leia before the "oops, she's my sister", but they never had this intensity and physicality in their interactions. Even their antagonism is physical and intense, unlike Vader & Luke where there was a physical distance and a certain aloofness.

I swear, these two are always touching each other. Right from the start, Kylo paralyzes Rey and goes around her checking her out, he almost touches her face and gets very close, he carries her around on his arms. Then in the interrogation scene he's breathing on her neck, his hands are almost all over her, she's checking him out when he takes the mask off, they're both helding the gaze and getting into each other's minds...

Then we have the duel. I swear, it's the most physical fight of the saga. I mean, they lock eyes three times during the fight (at the beginning, when he proposes to her, and when the floor opens), trees get chopped off and literally burn because of them (this never happened in Kylo's fight with Finn), they hold each other twice (when Rey breaks his lightsaber and when he proposes), they're sweating, moaning and breathing heavily while going after each other... For God's sake, the PLANET starts to fall apart when they begin their fight.

If they are cousins, JJ Abrams did a terrible job directing their scenes. They scream "PHYSICAL AND RAW ANTAGONISM" not "long lost cousins who hate each other".

Piper Maru wrote:@nemapasara


Same. I never got the "lost relative" vibe from them.  Their dynamic is heavy and completely different from Luke & Leia. Luke was enamored with Leia before the "oops, she's my sister", but they never had this intensity and physicality in their interactions.  Even their antagonism is physical and intense, unlike Vader & Luke where there was a physical distance and a certain aloofness.

I swear, these two are always touching each other. Right from the start, Kylo paralyzes Rey and goes around her checking her out, he almost touches her face and gets very close, he carries her around on his arms. Then in the interrogation scene he's breathing on her neck, his hands are almost all over her, she's checking him out when he takes the mask off, they're both helding the gaze and getting into each other's minds...

Then we have the duel. I swear, it's the most physical fight of the saga. I mean, they lock eyes three times during the fight (at the beginning, when he proposes to her, and when the floor opens), trees get chopped off and literally burn because of them (this never happened in Kylo's fight with Finn), they hold each other twice (when Rey breaks his lightsaber and when he proposes), they're sweating, moaning and breathing heavily while going after each other... For God's sake, the PLANET starts to fall apart when they begin their fight.

If they are cousins, JJ Abrams did a terrible job directing their scenes. They scream "PHYSICAL AND RAW ANTAGONISM" not "long lost cousins who hate each other".

This is why Finn/Rey and Luke/Leia feel similar to me. Luke and Finn both become enamoured with Leia and Rey instantly, but in a way that comes off like they've never really interacted with women that much so it's a surface thing. When both pairings get to know each other more, you can see that Luke's and Finn's feelings dampen (poor Luke really didn't have much of a choice though XD). With Rey and Kylo, it's all about the intensity. There's an immediate draw there, I'd argue it's there even before they meet. Much like Han and Leia's dynamic, but even then it feels so different. I just love the sense of fate, like the Force wanted them to meet in order to create a balance. 

There's a weird sense of intimacy between them, even though they technically didn't really touch - not skin-on-skin. I wonder if they'll make a point of doing that in the future, it's one of the things that fascinates me. I'd love to see Kylo shedding layers (like his gloves) as a way to symbolize his possible redemption. The two moments where he reaches out his arm/hand towards her felt like there was a sense of yearning, the way they pan slowly up his arm. It also symbolizes dominance and the power shift since the first moment panned onto Rey's face and then second moment panned onto Kylo's face:









They wanted to drive home that there was an intimacy there, especially because of the way they paced the movements. It was done in a way to emphasize the tension. You don't see that with Kylo interrogating Poe, or with his scene with Mitaka. It's all very hard cuts and to the point. Rey and Kylo's dynamic was designed to stand out.

@nemapasara

Yes, his hands are all over her even though he's not touching her directly. It's very strange.

Another thing very particular about their scenes is the soundtrack. Their "motif" is the one we can hear in the last track of the soundtrack, The Jedi Steps and Finale, between Rey's Theme and Kylo's Motif. It plays in the forest when she sees him for the first time, when she reverses the probe and when they are fighting. Despite this motif, their scenes are almost silent (except the fight). We only hear the Force rumbles (a purr and a heartbeat, nonetheless). It stands out in a movie filled with over the top soundtrack and sound effects.

Piper Maru wrote:@nemapasara

Yes, his hands are all over her even though he's not touching her directly. It's very strange.

Another thing very particular about their scenes is the soundtrack. Their "motif" is the one we can hear in the last track of the soundtrack, The Jedi Steps and Finale, between Rey's Theme and Kylo's Motif. It plays in the forest when she sees him for the first time, when she reverses the probe and when they are fighting. Despite this motif, their scenes are almost silent (except the fight). We only hear the Force rumbles (a purr and a heartbeat, nonetheless). It stands out in a movie filled with over the top soundtrack and sound effects.  

@Piper Maru

I'm not good at picking up musical cues, the only one I really noticed was that the music stops the moment Kylo and Finn battle and only starts back up when Rey grabs the saber. Their motif, is it the same one playing when Luke turns around? Could foreshadow either Kylo's arrival on the island or that Luke isn't the same person he was at the end of RotJ.

nemapasara wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:@nemapasara

Yes, his hands are all over her even though he's not touching her directly. It's very strange.

Another thing very particular about their scenes is the soundtrack. Their "motif" is the one we can hear in the last track of the soundtrack, The Jedi Steps and Finale, between Rey's Theme and Kylo's Motif. It plays in the forest when she sees him for the first time, when she reverses the probe and when they are fighting. Despite this motif, their scenes are almost silent (except the fight). We only hear the Force rumbles (a purr and a heartbeat, nonetheless). It stands out in a movie filled with over the top soundtrack and sound effects.  

@Piper Maru

I'm not good at picking up musical cues, the only one I really noticed was that the music stops the moment Kylo and Finn battle and only starts back up when Rey grabs the saber. Their motif, is it the same one playing when Luke turns around? Could foreshadow either Kylo's arrival on the island or that Luke isn't the same person he was at the end of RotJ.

@nemapasara

No, no. Their motif is this one, 4:20.
It just happens to be placed between their two individual themes, working as a "link". Before the motif, we have Rey's Theme. After, Kylo's Theme.

@Piper Maru

Oh, that's so cool! It's interesting how music can read like a story in of itself. As oblivious as I am to it, I do love reading music metas and what it could mean.

Piper Maru wrote:@nemapasara

Yes, his hands are all over her even though he's not touching her directly. It's very strange.

Another thing very particular about their scenes is the soundtrack. Their "motif" is the one we can hear in the last track of the soundtrack, The Jedi Steps and Finale, between Rey's Theme and Kylo's Motif. It plays in the forest when she sees him for the first time, when she reverses the probe and when they are fighting. Despite this motif, their scenes are almost silent (except the fight). We only hear the Force rumbles (a purr and a heartbeat, nonetheless). It stands out in a movie filled with over the top soundtrack and sound effects.  

@Piper Maru

I noticed this too.

In the forest abduction scene the only thing playing in the background are some low double basses that build mystery. She she drops into his arms, her theme plays which kick-starts the rest of what many picked up as "Romeo and Juliet" vibes.

In the interrogation scene there's a build up or "drum roll" to the unmasking and then when he takes it off, only a solitary clarinet in the background. Clarinets are often associated with humor, just listen to the "droids" track. Light-hearted, whimsical. The clarinet played when Kylo took his helmet off, kinda adding to the confusion and element of surprise. Then like you said, just pulsing in the background during the force-off!

Of course there's music during their duel, but not much in the lead up to it when she calls him a monster.

Silence certainly has just as much of a role in movie music and the compositions itself. When the scene has no music, it forces you to just focus on the interactions in front of you, almost in a real-time sense. It also kind of makes you determine your own tone for the interaction, as if left up to interpretation.

The clarinet during the unmasking baffled me the most. I was like wait, this isn't scary...it's more like...curious?

She gives him elevator eyes.

vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.

@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.

Piper Maru wrote:

vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.

@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.

@Piper Maru

There's quite a bit of things in the movie that hint at riciprocated Reylo, and it's mainly done though facial expressions. The elevator eyes is one of them, while the other is that lasting gaze across the cliff after the ground separates. He's not going to be just her enemy to her forever...

Piper Maru wrote:

vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.

@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.

@Piper Maru

I'm one of the people still unconvinced that Rey "checks out" Kylo in the unmasking scene in a particular girl-interested-in-a-boy fashion. Rather than a general, ohh you look nothing like the monster I imagined you to be.

Saracene wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:

vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.

@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.

@Piper Maru

I'm one of the people still unconvinced that Rey "checks out" Kylo in the unmasking scene in a particular girl-interested-in-a-boy fashion. Rather than a general, ohh you look nothing like the monster I imagined you to be.

@Saracene

It's not in a "oh you're cute" fashion. It's a display of female gaze. Rey (the female) has the POV of the "undressing" of a male character (Kylo Ren) and this POV is shared by the audience.