Kylo vs Hux as Leaders/The First Order thread

[shii405]

No, no, this is not a Kylux thread. Kylo VS Hux, please

Most of us predict that General Hux will rebel against Supreme Leader Kylo in IX. TLJ ending itself pretty much suggested that. I am very interested to dig this discussion deeper, let's make clear of Kylo and Hux positions and dynamic in TFA and TLJ, also analyze the difference of their leadership in the First Order.

I have a few questions.

1. Is there any FO organizational chart published somewhere? What is the chain of command in FO? Who report to whom?
It looks like Hux report to Snoke as a military officer, while Kylo is just a Force apprentice of Snoke? All of the stormtroopers report to Hux, i think? Cause when Finn escaped, Kylo criticized Hux method as if he has nothing to do with it.
I am just not clear of Kylo's position in the First Order... does he has his own subordinates/stormtroopers who report only to Kylo? Is he a general too? (I assume not)

2. Does either Kylo Ren and/or Hux has loyal followers in FO? When the time for power struggle comes, it is very important for them to have followers and allies. The First Order seems cold to me, like everyone is a robot. Are they following their leaders because that is what they believe and they look up to them? Or they are all simply just programmed to follow orders? If anyone has loyal followers, I would say it's Hux rather than Kylo. I feel that Kylo has no loyal followers in FO as we can see in TFA those 2 stormtroopers ran futher away when Kylo screamed "Guaaards!" in rage.

3. How would you analyze Kylo and Hux leadership respectively? I really doubt Kylo's intelligence in military strategy after TLJ although he was in an emotional state (I wonder if he'd give better orders when he is calm?) But to me, Kylo seems to be the type of leader who only relies on his power to instill fear in every subordinate. Hux seems to know more about strategy and handle his people very well, they have a certain respect for Hux, while most of them fear Kylo but I don't think they respect him.
Hmm... what was the Renperor theory again? Does the theory mention or analyze Kylo's leadership skill? Cause the more I think of it, the more I think Kylo has no leadership. Yes, of course he has his mystical power, but without strategy skill and certain charisma to make people respect him, his leadership won't last long.

There might be things I missed, so I'd like to read your opinions too.

[Rei of Sunshine]

Kylo was described as an Enforcer of the First Order in TFA Visual Dictionary, or was it novelization(?)

He's like a special officer, he's high up in rank because he's Snoke's student. But he does not have official command like Hux does. Based on what I saw on TFA, especially in the search for BB-8, Kylo operates on special missions according to Snoke. During these missions he is afforded a battalion of ST and transports. Based on TFA and Battlefront 2, it looks like Kylo's missions are primarily about Jedi clean-up. The map to Luke, the compass. etc. It seems like Kylo never really had a purpose in the FO other than his Jedi related assignments.

Officers and STs obey him without question because he is basically on equal rank as Hux. But I wonder if he has much clout over them other than their fear of him and his lightsaber.

Hux is more cunning, smarter and born to be general, and dare I say, even become Supreme Leader if he usurps Kylo. I think Hux has more loyal followers because he has influence and he was raised and trained to become a leader.

Kylo's only loyal men are the KOR, but we still don't know who they are, and as FS people go, there is still a possiblity of traitors in their midst. He really doesn't have any evidence of leadership...BUT let's not forget he is the grandson of Padme Amidala and by adoption, Bail Organa, his mother is Leia Organa. So we just might see some of that Naberrie blood shine through!

I am really hoping for Kylo to show a hint of leadership.

[Little_Boots]

It was hilarious when Hux was attempting to take out a weapon to kill Kylo and quickly haults when he sees Kylo wake up! I've read some funny fanfics with Hux and stuff like that happened in them involving Hux! He's gas!

[Kessel]

It was hilarious when Hux was attempting to take out a weapon to kill Kylo and quickly haults when he sees Kylo wake up! I've read some funny fanfics with Hux and stuff like that happened in them involving Hux! He's gas!

@Little_Boots

The first time I watched the movie, I was so upset after Kylo and Rey had their falling out in the throne room that I didn't fully appreciate that scene, but on my second viewing I was more prepared, and I thought that scene was absolutely hilarious.

I think it may be providing foreshadowing that when Hux does try to usurp Kylo and get rid of him, it'll likely be in a deceptive/underhanded way, rather than directly in Kylo's face.

Now that we know Hux lives and has a fair amount of scenes in TLJ, I remember how during the movie's promotion, Dohmnell Gleason made it sound like Hux would barely be in the movie. How sneaky of him!

[Little_Boots]

It was hilarious when Hux was attempting to take out a weapon to kill Kylo and quickly haults when he sees Kylo wake up! I've read some funny fanfics with Hux and stuff like that happened in them involving Hux! He's gas!

@Little_Boots

The first time I watched the movie, I was so upset after Kylo and Rey had their falling out in the throne room that I didn't fully appreciate that scene, but on my second viewing, I was more prepared, and I thought that scene was absolutely hilarious.

I think it may be providing foreshadowing that when Hux does try to usurp Kylo and get rid of him, it'll likely be in a deceptive/underhanded way, rather than directly in Kylo's face.

Now that we know Hux lives and has a fair amount of scenes in TLJ, I remember how during the movie's promotion, Dohmnell Gleason made it sound like Hux would barely be in the movie. How sneaky of him!

@Kessel

Hehe! I can see Hux attempting to stab Kylo in the back! He seems like a nut case, one of those slimey characters!

[Rei of Sunshine]

It was hilarious when Hux was attempting to take out a weapon to kill Kylo and quickly haults when he sees Kylo wake up! I've read some funny fanfics with Hux and stuff like that happened in them involving Hux! He's gas!

@Little_Boots

The first time I watched the movie, I was so upset after Kylo and Rey had their falling out in the throne room that I didn't fully appreciate that scene, but on my second viewing, I was more prepared, and I thought that scene was absolutely hilarious.

I think it may be providing foreshadowing that when Hux does try to usurp Kylo and get rid of him, it'll likely be in a deceptive/underhanded way, rather than directly in Kylo's face.

Now that we know Hux lives and has a fair amount of scenes in TLJ, I remember how during the movie's promotion, Dohmnell Gleason made it sound like Hux would barely be in the movie. How sneaky of him!

@Kessel

Hehe! I can see Hux attempting to stab Kylo in the back! He seems like a nut case, one of those slimey characters!

@Little_Boots

That scene tells a lot about Hux.

Honestly I won't be surprised if during the timeskip he was able to research a way on how to subdue Force sensitives and use it against Kylo. Maybe he'll poison him, or maybe he'll get one of the KOR to turn against Kylo.

But as much as he is a comic relief, he could be a real threat given the chance.

[Darth_Awakened]

I like the look on Hux's face in his last shot in the movie:

Hi all I'am Armitage Hux and I'am here to make some trouble to that pathetic creature kneeling on the ground. As you can see I'am plotting already.
MWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Now to feed my cat!

[Kessel]

It was hilarious when Hux was attempting to take out a weapon to kill Kylo and quickly haults when he sees Kylo wake up! I've read some funny fanfics with Hux and stuff like that happened in them involving Hux! He's gas!

@Little_Boots

The first time I watched the movie, I was so upset after Kylo and Rey had their falling out in the throne room that I didn't fully appreciate that scene, but on my second viewing, I was more prepared, and I thought that scene was absolutely hilarious.

I think it may be providing foreshadowing that when Hux does try to usurp Kylo and get rid of him, it'll likely be in a deceptive/underhanded way, rather than directly in Kylo's face.

Now that we know Hux lives and has a fair amount of scenes in TLJ, I remember how during the movie's promotion, Dohmnell Gleason made it sound like Hux would barely be in the movie. How sneaky of him!

@Kessel

Hehe! I can see Hux attempting to stab Kylo in the back! He seems like a nut case, one of those slimey characters!

@Little_Boots

That scene tells a lot about Hux.

Honestly I won't be surprised if during the timeskip he was able to research a way on how to subdue Force sensitives and use it against Kylo. Maybe he'll poison him, or maybe he'll get one of the KOR to turn against Kylo.

But as much as he is a comic relief, he could be a real threat given the chance.

@Rei of Sunshine

Well, if Kylo does turn out to be Space Hamlet (which I hope would only mean he shares certian similarities with Hamlet, but not his fate), then (attempted) poisoning sounds familiar. Would that make Hux, Laertes?  I don't think Hux saw Snoke as a father and in the Phasma novel, didn't Hux conspire with Phasma to kill his father, Brendol? I'd say he's pretty treacherous, so yeah, anything is possible with him.

[thescavenger]

For this topic, I just remembered when Kylo and Snoke were having a conversation earlier on in TLJ, where Snoke boasts of his ability to use Hux's weaknesses against him. Was the weakness Snoke was talking about aspirations or his fear of the Force, does anybody remember?

And then when Renperor happened, he force choked Hux to exert power in a similar way to Snoke. I think this is the only thing keeping Hux in check for the moment. Looking forward to see their interactions in IX actually, because I think Hux would very much want sole control of the FO and the only thing keeping him from that is Kylo's Force powers. He also knows of Kylo's fragility so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to use it against Kylo.

[FrolickingFizzgig]

For this topic, I just remembered when Kylo and Snoke were having a conversation earlier on in TLJ, where Snoke boasts of his ability to use Hux's weaknesses against him. Was the weakness Snoke was talking about aspirations or his fear of the Force, does anybody remember?

And then when Renperor happened, he force choked Hux to exert power in a similar way to Snoke. I think this is the only thing keeping Hux in check for the moment. Looking forward to see their interactions in IX actually, because I think Hux would very much want sole control of the FO and the only thing keeping him from that is Kylo's Force powers. He also knows of Kylo's fragility so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to use it against Kylo.

@thescavenger
Hux is not as pathetic as some make him out to be and I genuinely believe Rian kept him alive for a reason. He knows Kylo's weaknesses just as well as Snoke did, he orchestrated the Starkiller base attacks and organized the battle of Crait. Had he taken charge the Resistance would have been wiped out completely, but thanks to Kylo's emotional breakdown and Luke's stalling everybody lived to see another day, hope maintained for the next confrontation.

Hux has zero physical power, but a lot of ambition. He's a total psychopath who bounces off Kylo's "broken soul" really well. He is extreme and will do just about anything.

I don't buy Kylo as a big bad of anything because he's not mentally organized enough. He's a joke. He'll take what he can get but he doesn't have the same ambition as Hux -- not even close. Renperor was the choice he made out of heartbreak, not something he really wanted at all. When he woke up he was so angry that he felt he had no other choice.

[Miyu]

I agree that Hux will try to usurp power in ep IX - it was clear based on his reaction to Snokes death and Kylo installing himself as the new head (Kylo had to force choke him to shut him up and acknowledge his lead).

In the TFA I think they were on the same level (both of them directly reporting to Snoke) and despised each other to death. Hux hated Kylo and was pointing out Kylos mistakes, basically telling on Kylo to Snoke. Kylo ridiculed Hux and didn’t want him to see him without his helmet and therefore vulnerable in Kylos point of view. There was clear rivalry between the two of them.

I would say that Kylo has to show dominance for others to follow him. (Snoke did the same. Hux looked like he was going to piss himself when he was told that Snoke wants to talk to him about the failed mission)

There was the scene when Kylo gave an order and Hux repeated it after him (Kylo gave him the look like WTF man!). I wonder why he did it. Did Hux still wanted to maintained the illusion that he is in charge or was he afraid that they will not do it if it comes from (only) Kylo as I assume that the Snokes death was not a public knowledge yet?

But the moment he bitchslapped Hux when he was questioning his decision (and rightfully so) the others immediately started to follow his orders out of fear.

100% there will be a pissing contest between Kylo and Hux and I am looking forward to this.

[thescavenger]

For this topic, I just remembered when Kylo and Snoke were having a conversation earlier on in TLJ, where Snoke boasts of his ability to use Hux's weaknesses against him. Was the weakness Snoke was talking about aspirations or his fear of the Force, does anybody remember?

And then when Renperor happened, he force choked Hux to exert power in a similar way to Snoke. I think this is the only thing keeping Hux in check for the moment. Looking forward to see their interactions in IX actually, because I think Hux would very much want sole control of the FO and the only thing keeping him from that is Kylo's Force powers. He also knows of Kylo's fragility so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to use it against Kylo.

@thescavenger
Hux is not as pathetic as some make him out to be and I genuinely believe Rian kept him alive for a reason. He knows Kylo's weaknesses just as well as Snoke did, he orchestrated the Starkiller base attacks and organized the battle of Crait. Had he taken charge the Resistance would have been wiped out completely, but thanks to Kylo's emotional breakdown and Luke's stalling everybody lived to see another day, hope maintained for the next confrontation.

Hux has zero physical power, but a lot of ambition. He's a total psychopath who bounces off Kylo's "broken soul" really well. He is extreme and will do just about anything.

I don't buy Kylo as a big bad of anything because he's not mentally organized enough. He's a joke. He'll take what he can get but he doesn't have the same ambition as Hux -- not even close. Renperor was the choice he made out of heartbreak, not something he really wanted at all. When he woke up he was so angry that he felt he had no other choice.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh, I absolutely agree with you on that. Hux is a psychopath, but at the same time a competent military leader. Without any force users interfering, I bet he would have run the FO like a machine. What I was trying to say was that after having made the choice to become Renperor, and during that first confrontation with Hux when he woke up in the Throne Room, he must have recalled the conversation with Snoke earlier. And that was how he knew to Force choke Hux - something we have never seen previously.

All this just leads to my speculation that the only thing Kylo has over Hux is the ability to harm him using the Force. Hux has to be much more practical and manipulative in his approach to betray Kylo.

[Rei of Sunshine]

So it's starting to look like Hux will be the main antagonist for Ep 9, considering Ben will likely be on the fence and will probably be redeemed in the end.

At first I honestly feel that he won't live up the expectations because in TLJ he was slightly made for comic relief. But that last look was very menacing and held a lot of promise.

If written well, Hux may become one of the best developed Star Wars villain. He isn't complex and conflicted like Ben. But he certainly did grow from TFA to TLJ, and hopefully for Ep9.

I haven't read any of the novels yet, but I can say that Hux is a rather smart and cunning ambitious person and will not stop until he gets what he wants. Which makes a very dangerous villain.

I don't know who to compare him with. All I can think of is Admiral Thrawn, yet I've never seen Rebels or read the old Legends comics. All I know is he is smart and cunning as well.

If Hux becomes the main villain then it is a nice change for Star Wars movies to finally have villains that aren't wrinkly old megalomaniacs and emotionally damaged lover boys.

We already had Palpy=Snoke, Vader=Kylo...maybe we could get some Thrawn=Hux too.

[ZioRen]

I think if we've learned anything, it's that Snoke has a habit of badly underestimating his underlings, from Kylo to Hux to even Finn to an extent. I've no doubt that Hux has more going for him than Snoke gave him credit for. Kylo's unwillingness to just dispose of Hux will probably come around to bite him.

[Night Huntress]

@Rei of Sunshine: well, I haven't read the latest Thrawn book- but the way he was portrayed in the original "Thrawn Trilogy" from '92 (force was that 25 years ago??? ) he wasn't anything like Hux. He was a very good leader and not a villain in my opinion. Clever, intelligent with a different political view of things- but he had a strong sense of justice.

I think the main antagonist in IX will be Ben/Kylos inner demons. Hux sure will try to plot against Kylo- but I don't know how important that will be in the story. I have a feeling Ben will abandon his position as Supreme Leader on his own (at least I wish he will).

[Rei of Sunshine]

@Rei of Sunshine: well, I haven't read the latest Thrawn book- but the way he was portrayed in the original "Thrawn Trilogy" from '92 (force was that 25 years ago??? ) he wasn't anything like Hux. He was a very good leader and not a villain in my opinion. Clever, intelligent with a different political view of things- but he had a strong sense of justice.

I think the main antagonist in IX will be Ben/Kylos inner demons. Hux sure will try to plot against Kylo- but I don't know how important that will be in the story. I have a feeling Ben will abandon his position as Supreme Leader on his own (at least I wish he will).

@Night Huntress

Ben/Kylo is crucial yes, but it's only comparable to Zuko's conflict whether to kill Aang or not, or Bruce Banner letting Hulk take over him. This is all internalized villainy.

Beyond that there is still another villain. Legend of Aang had Firelord Ozai and Azula, while the Hulk had the Abomination.

There has to be a grunt villain in every film. This is Star Wars after all.

[snufkin]

IDK if Hux has the makings of a great villain, but he's got the makings of a great antagonist to somebody who's now in over his head. Seriously, Ben went for the crown because he thought he'd have Rey as his backup. And without her around, he's woefully out of his element in terms of being a leader save for the scary Wizard powers. The line Snoke has about Hux in terms of weakness cultivated can be a sharp weapon, that's something to keep an eye out for. Hux may no longer have Phasma around to help him, but wouldn't count him out.

Also it's just great casting against type after seeing the type of characters he's played in Frank and Ex-Machina (even in Brooklyn). And if they ever wanted to do a modern updated version of the Road To... movies, him and OI would be perfect as the Crosby/Hope characters.

[PalmettoBlue]

It’s funny - on my third viewing, my unbidden thought regarding Hux was that he isn’t much of a military leader. The captain of the Dreadnaught was pretty clearly ahead of Hux as Poe was stalling. (Launch the fighters! We should done so five minutes ago.) From that perspective, Hux cost them the big ship. He likes to hear himself talk and is convinced of his own superiority.
My husband, a retired vet, calls him a s*** leader. He’s a politician, not a tactician.
Now that said, it’s clear he and Kylo hate each other’s guts. He’s going to make a play for the throne...but he’ll need smarter allies than himself. As for Kylo, that boy’s a hot mess. This is not going to go well unless he can find some emotional balance.

[Lamiller1390]

The dynamics between Hux and Kylo going into the Episode 9 is fascinating and I am curious how JJ will play it.

Hux and Kylo have been pitted against each other by Snoke for ages. It is clear that they have a general dislike of each other and have a rivalry going on. I am confident that going into 9 we will see the climax of that rivalry as I am certain that Hux will not just stand by and watch Kylo Ren take over the first Order without some sort of a fight. He can't be overt about it because Kylo is a Force user and has already Man Handled Hux but he's gonna do something.

My hope for 9 is that Hux will have figured out what really happened in Snokes Chambers because I doubt that Hux will buy Kylo's 'Rey Did It' stick for long. How did one scavenger girl best Snoke, Kylo, and all the pretorian guards by herself... I mean that is a stretch to buy. The last look we see from Hux is a disapproving and disdainful look at Kylo. SO I hope that Hux does find out and Kylo manages to find himself exiled and on the run and that is why or how he turns back to Rey because she is the only one who will listen to him and believe in him. If he is the main Villian in 9 and is fully in charge of the First Order I am not sure what they will do with that.

*turns out this thread already exists hahaha*

[Teo oswald]

I'm waiting for Hux's revenge , He is a great character, and I think he's smarter than kylo, he knows the strategies of war, he knows how to command. I do not think we will still see him as a dog under kylo for long , no I believe he will redeem himself and take what he deserves. I prefer Hux as the supreme leader because he embodies the figure of the leader

despite Poe ridiculed him in front of everyone on live radio
  Hux has a lot of potential, look at the speech he makes to the army during the destruction of the Republic. Calm people are the most dangerous, because they plan their next move in their heads

[Teo oswald]

I'm waiting for Hux's revenge , He is a great character, and I think he's smarter than kylo, he knows the strategies of war, he knows how to command. I do not think we will still see him as a dog under kylo for long , no I believe he will redeem himself and take what he deserves. I prefer Hux as the supreme leader because he embodies the figure of the leader

despite Poe ridiculed him in front of everyone on live radio
  Hux has a lot of potential, look at the speech he makes to the army during the destruction of the Republic. Calm people are the most dangerous, because they plan their next move in their heads

@Teo oswald

[Lamiller1390]

@Teo oswald

Hux is obviously someone with ambition who is very smart, smart enough to find a way of tracking the rebellion through hyperspace...lightspeed... whatever it is they use in this universe. Snoke has him around for a reason. He may be young but he's got something going for him for sure.

With someone that smart I think he will easily put two and two together and find that Rey did not kill Snoke, the guards, and beat Kyo all by herself...

[Night Huntress]

I'm waiting for Hux's revenge , He is a great character, and I think he's smarter than kylo, he knows the strategies of war, he knows how to command. I do not think we will still see him as a dog under kylo for long , no I believe he will redeem himself and take what he deserves. I prefer Hux as the supreme leader because he embodies the figure of the leader

Hm, I wouldn't be so sure about the bolded. They have a very different way of thinking. And yes, Hux may have a better knowledge about military strategies- and he is wily. But I think Kylo/Ben has another kind of intelligence- the question is, will he be able to keep calm and clearheaded enough to use his brain and won't let his rage get in the way.

When it counted - in the throne room-  Kylo was very calm and smart. I mean he even outsmarted Snoke in that moment. So I guess we'll see

[Darth Dementor]

For this topic, I just remembered when Kylo and Snoke were having a conversation earlier on in TLJ, where Snoke boasts of his ability to use Hux's weaknesses against him. Was the weakness Snoke was talking about aspirations or his fear of the Force, does anybody remember?

And then when Renperor happened, he force choked Hux to exert power in a similar way to Snoke. I think this is the only thing keeping Hux in check for the moment. Looking forward to see their interactions in IX actually, because I think Hux would very much want sole control of the FO and the only thing keeping him from that is Kylo's Force powers. He also knows of Kylo's fragility so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to use it against Kylo.

@thescavenger
Hux is not as pathetic as some make him out to be and I genuinely believe Rian kept him alive for a reason. He knows Kylo's weaknesses just as well as Snoke did, he orchestrated the Starkiller base attacks and organized the battle of Crait. Had he taken charge the Resistance would have been wiped out completely, but thanks to Kylo's emotional breakdown and Luke's stalling everybody lived to see another day, hope maintained for the next confrontation.

Hux has zero physical power, but a lot of ambition. He's a total psychopath who bounces off Kylo's "broken soul" really well. He is extreme and will do just about anything.

I don't buy Kylo as a big bad of anything because he's not mentally organized enough. He's a joke. He'll take what he can get but he doesn't have the same ambition as Hux -- not even close. Renperor was the choice he made out of heartbreak, not something he really wanted at all. When he woke up he was so angry that he felt he had no other choice.

@FrolickingFizzgig

It's like the struggle between Superman and Lex Luthor; Thor and Loki. Even though latters aren't on the same physical levels as their rivals they compensate with their cunning. As strong as Superman and Thor are their antagonists are just as smart and diabolical.

[Lamiller1390]

@Darth Dementor
Exactly, a great comparison. Loki and Thor...

Two brothers pitted against each other... Hux and Kylo have been pitted against each other.

Kylo is the Thor in this, at least how Thor was initially. Power hungry, impulsive, and with a temper.

Hux is more cunning, like Loki, biding his time, being smart. Being a strategist.

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