The Last Jedi: General Discussion

IoJovi wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:The more I see those pics the darker I think this film is going to be.
Close up of Kylo's scar, unlike in the trailer it actually looks like a cut where in the trailer it looked painted on. And you can actually see it going down his neck..........

@motherofpearl1

It looks different in nearly every pic I see of him.  In some pics you really have to look for it to find it, in others it looks like a smudge, some it looks like someone penciled a thin line on his face, and in this one is looks like a fresh cut, even though it's still thin.

I'm curious what it will look like in the actual film, or if it too will change from scene to scene....

@IoJovi

I've got a weird feeling it'll look completely different myself!
Both in the trailer and poster they hide that side of his face, I wonder if we are looking at the 'foundation' makeup so to speak and it'll be embellished with CGI?
As they say, the plot thickens....

motherofpearl1 wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:The more I see those pics the darker I think this film is going to be.
Close up of Kylo's scar, unlike in the trailer it actually looks like a cut where in the trailer it looked painted on. And you can actually see it going down his neck..........

@motherofpearl1

It looks different in nearly every pic I see of him.  In some pics you really have to look for it to find it, in others it looks like a smudge, some it looks like someone penciled a thin line on his face, and in this one is looks like a fresh cut, even though it's still thin.

I'm curious what it will look like in the actual film, or if it too will change from scene to scene....

@IoJovi

I've got a weird feeling it'll look completely different myself!
Both in the trailer and poster they hide that side of his face, I wonder if we are looking at the 'foundation' makeup so to speak and it'll be embellished with CGI?
As they say, the plot thickens....

@motherofpearl1
It could make for great symbolism if his scar is fresh and raw in the beginning and slowly heals over the course of the film.

I don't think it'll look different. They've already released BF II images of him, the official promotional poster of yesterday, and the lego Kylo and those scars seem to line up with what they've shown in VF and the BTS.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:The more I see those pics the darker I think this film is going to be.
Close up of Kylo's scar, unlike in the trailer it actually looks like a cut where in the trailer it looked painted on. And you can actually see it going down his neck..........

@motherofpearl1

It looks different in nearly every pic I see of him.  In some pics you really have to look for it to find it, in others it looks like a smudge, some it looks like someone penciled a thin line on his face, and in this one is looks like a fresh cut, even though it's still thin.

I'm curious what it will look like in the actual film, or if it too will change from scene to scene....

@IoJovi

I've got a weird feeling it'll look completely different myself!
Both in the trailer and poster they hide that side of his face, I wonder if we are looking at the 'foundation' makeup so to speak and it'll be embellished with CGI?
As they say, the plot thickens....

@motherofpearl1
It could make for great symbolism if his scar is fresh and raw in the beginning and slowly heals over the course of the film.

@MeadowofAshes

I have a really strong vibe about something like that, especially as they said things start immediately where the first one ended.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:I just gotta say it. No one else in those new posters look as stunning as Rey. Sure they all look awesome, but Rey's is symbolic. Gone now is the virginal little scavenger girl from Jakku. All that red screams WOMAN, and i wonder if Kylo can take all of it.

@Rei of Sunshine

Coudln't have said it better myself.

Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

@MeadowofAshes

Yeah! I believe that this is one of the reason why Rose was introduced. I am eager to discover her character because she looks so cool. I think that it's a good idea because having Rey ending with Kylo and Finn with anyone would be quite cruel for Finn himself. The guy doesn't deserve to be treated by the screenwriters like Rey's potential love interest at a first place just to let him all alone at the end. He deserves much better than the fate of the (too) good guy who finally "loses" the girl to the "bad boy",especially if he ain't meant to become a Jedi. So I agree with you that if FinnRose happens, Rey will be alone like someone else, which makes sense for Reylo to happen. But honestly, I believe that the screenwriters will make sure to have Kylo not only fully redeemed but accepted by society despite his crimes. Providing that the screenwriters will go the road I think they go with his character, Kylo will be able to live a quite normal life in society.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.

@motherofpearl1


[size=50]Yes. I wonder if even Leia's faith in Ben's light is shaken at that point, maybe even warning her that she believed her son was still light and was wrong. But Rey insists that's not the case, now alienating herself from Leia. And with that said... We had the rumor Rey ends up in captivity at the end and the statement from Daisy Rey will be emotionally hurt. This is total conjecture but Ben and Rey taking on Praetorian guards leading to Snoke only to have Ben (seemingly) turn her over to him is a possibility. It's like Snape killing Dumbledore after Rowling built up his sympathetic backstory. It risks the audience hating his guts between TLJ and IX, but it would be a bold move and a definite cliffhanger.[/size]

Especially if Kylo has a very good reason to hand Rey over.....to save her perhaps.

There's something else...
Rian said he was inspired by The Searchers. And it has a scene where a man is about to kill his niece because he believes her 'corrupted' only for the young man his family adopted to stand in his way.
What if...Rey is standing between a wounded Kylo and a vengeful Leia?

Someone on twitter posted a side-by-side juxtaposition of all of the new teaser posters.  The differences in the Kylo/Rey posters really stand out even more when compared directly with the Resistance posters.

IDK if the production team has outright mentioned The Searchers as an influence on TLJ, but it's there in the trailer shot of Luke in sileoutee in the doorway, like the shot of Ethan at the end. The Searchers is one of the central movies George Lucas outright referenced for the first movie (Burning Homestead) and in AotC. And John Ford was a major influence/personal hero of one of the other directors the franchise continually riffs on, Akira Kurosawa. So it's in the franchise's DNA and that shot alone in the trailer is enough to get you thinking that they may do something with Luke and Ben a la Ethan and Debbie.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Someone on twitter posted a side-by-side juxtaposition of all of the new teaser posters.  The differences in the Kylo/Rey posters really stand out even more when compared directly with the Resistance posters.

@ISeeAnIsland

looks like they both ar leaving with Rey looking back for the last time

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.

@motherofpearl1


[size=50]Yes. I wonder if even Leia's faith in Ben's light is shaken at that point, maybe even warning her that she believed her son was still light and was wrong. But Rey insists that's not the case, now alienating herself from Leia. And with that said... We had the rumor Rey ends up in captivity at the end and the statement from Daisy Rey will be emotionally hurt. This is total conjecture but Ben and Rey taking on Praetorian guards leading to Snoke only to have Ben (seemingly) turn her over to him is a possibility. It's like Snape killing Dumbledore after Rowling built up his sympathetic backstory. It risks the audience hating his guts between TLJ and IX, but it would be a bold move and a definite cliffhanger.[/size]

@MeadowofAshes

Hmm...I don't believe it would be the case. Like I wrote in one of my previous posts, I believe that this scene rather occurs by the very end of the movie because Leia looks so solitary and grim like someone who has lost everything. Plus, I indeed that Rey is neither gonna turn turn to the DS nor end up prisoner or in some near-death state. Her character was obviously not written to end up in some passive state, waiting that someone comes to deliver her.

So that's why I tend to much to believe that something terrible will most likely happen to Ben. However, I don't believe in the scenario of Ben turning good and then turning bad again because committing treason would make him only pitiful to the audience. I believe that the best way  have the audience feeling complete empathy with him is to have him becoming the FO's super weapon against his own will. The poster refers him as "the Lost" which is extremely ambiguous: lost in the sense of emotionally lost lost in the sense of not to be redeemed because of his crime or lost in the sense that he may end up in some near-death state forever

Leia already experienced the painful feeling to have her son committing a patricide in TFA although she thought he had still light What could be more tragic for her than having her son coming back to the light but ending up sort of lost forever because Snoke ultimately got what he wanted from him

Of cours, all these assumption are based on my theory that we will get some kind of Atlantis scenario in TLJ with Ben as Kida, being used by Snoke and the FO to get some super weapon. The fact is that the FO obviously used the money of some rich assholes of Canto Bright to build their weapon SKB to control the galaxy. Unfortunately, the SKB was destroyed, which means that the money that the rich a** gave to finance the FO was spent for nothing since SKB was used only once to destroy Hosnian Prime. So we may assume that the rich a** ain't gonna spend their money in financing another SKB. I already pointed out that the screenwriters introduced some continuity between the weapon of mass destruction: Death Star I, Death Star II, SKB. They are all terrific weapons but all got destroyed because they all had a weak point. So I guess that the FO will try to have another weapon of mass destruction but won't spend so many years constructing a weapon that would have a weak point - especially if the rich a** ain't ready to pay again for that.

So let's assume what's the point to have Snoke and the FO sending Hux there. We know that Snoke - like the rich a** - is very bling-bling. He obviously like luxurious objects and we know that he'll need this super weapon of mass destruction. We also know that he needs for some reason the financial support of the rich assholes to finance the FO activities. And we know that Crait will be the centerpiece of the battle between the FO and the Resistance and have a key role in the movie. I had never heard about Crait before because I missed the whole story during my absence of the forum.

However, we know that Crait is some salty planet whose underground is made is...red ores

We know from Rian that he got some inspiration from Letter Never Sent where geologists are sent to find diamonds for the Soviet Government in order to finance some weapon. Plus, providing that he got some inspiration from the Atlantis scenario, we have some potential scenario about mercenaries who are ready to make money with the Atlantis cristal - a living source of power - no matter that it endangers the survival of an entire civilization. Finally, we know from RO that the Empire used kyber cristal to power Death Star I and Death II and then that the FO used the power of the Sun to power SKB. Then, what do they need to use as the next source of power of the new weapon of mass destruction if not something "pure, strong, unbreakable" like Snoke says in TFA:?:

I find the absence of Snoke in the promotional process extremely suspicious unless it appears that he is indeed either Luke or Kylo himself for some weird reason. Plus, we are told a lot about Luke and Rey's relationship but few about Snoke and Ben's relationship. Personally, I can't imagine that Snoke has been working so hard with Ben from the whomb just to decide that he isn't worth of his attention anymore.

At a first sight, Snoke seems to represent for Kylo what Palpatine represented for Anakin: a father figure. However, I feel that their dynamic is different. Although Anakin was manipulated from a young age, Palpatine only played the role of some kind, wise but machiavelic father figure watching over him from distance. Anakin grew up with a loving motheraway from his influence in hisearly years, then developed some special bond with Obi-Wan during his Padawan training and finally found love with Padme as a Jedi Knight. Palpatine never ever considered these bonds like a threat even later when it came to Luke's compassion with his father. He always tried to manipulate relationships to his advantage but never tried to prevent emotional bonds to develop. If I should describe Palpatine and Anakin's relationship in one word, I would chose "paternalism".

However things appear completely different in regard to Snoke and Kylo's relationship. We know from the novel Aftermath that Snoke had been watching Ben even before that child was born. I don't know who is Snoke but I was always intrigued by this passage of the novel where Leia sits next to a potted flower from Endor, tries to reach out to the plant and suddently feels some dark presence within her. I have always wondered if there wasn't some callback to E.T. the Extraterrestrial there. We know from Pablo that even if Snoke is an humanoid, he is no human. He indeed looks very much like an alien. Plus, it was revealed by Spielberg that E.T. is actually a plant. We also know that Rey was supposed to see a boy accompanied with Snoke during her vision. In E.T., we get a lonely boy - hurt by the failure of his parent's marriage - who finds in an alien his only friend and develops an unexpected strong bond with him. E.T. and Elliott become at some point so bonded that their lives become interdependant as if they were one. That's why, I believe Snoke to represent much more to Ben than a father figure because he's probably become the most important part of his life in 30 years, the person who knows him the most :

"When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood in sharp contrast with the commanding tone he had used with Hux"

However, Snoke represents for Ben what some dark version of E.T. could have represented for Elliott: a toxic, possessive and exclusive friend. When I once mentioned Sben/Snylo for fun, some part of me was serious there. Perhaps I am wrong to think that but it seems to me that Snoke behaves with Ben like a possessive lover/friend would do. Their relationship ain't based on paternalism (like Palpatine and Anakin) but on possessiveness.

That's why, I believe that Snoke will do anything to possess Kylo at all costs and the way he talks to him is somehow...inappropriate

The way he describes their relationship in the TFA novel is extremely telling and disturbing: he considers himself like a sculptor who is working with the finest material. A few weeks ago, I watched the movie Rodin: it took 30 years for the scuptor Auguste Rodin to achieve his masterpiece called The Gates of Hell! It required time and patience to work with the material and achieved what he wanted to do with it:


So I guess that like any artist, Sboke considers the material and the product of his work as his property. That's why I can't believe that Snoke would let Ben go that easily: he has been working for thirty years so hard with that child as a material to achieve a masterpiece. And we know from Andy Serkis himself that Snoke has a huge agenda but that this agenda is limited by his vulnerability.

To me, it is obvious that Snoke needs Ben for very specific goal and that he is using him to achieve it. Plus, the way he is talking to him sounds to me like a sculptor who is praising his muse if not the way a guy telling a girl how much he is in love with her. I mean one could easily replace some lines of their dialogue with the lines of a guy courting a girl by telling her how beautiful and precious she is to him:
"I have never had a student with such promise - before you" sounds a little like "I have never met a girl like you before"
"I have - you" sounds a little like "you're mine" or "you belong to me"
Even the way ADF stresses before you and you with th hyphen sign looks so disturbing. Really gets the sensation to read something innaprorpriate, way too intimate.

The next passage is even worse when I think about it. Snoke's reaction to Kylo's compassion for Rey looks so similar to a jealous lover:

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

I mean, there are two things so odd there. Why does Snoke need to stress Rey's gender telling this scavenger - this girl - as if it was an important detail for him. Plus what for is he disappointed by Kylo? Certainly not disappointed that Kylo  didn't get the map from her : he doesn't  even mention the map in the dialogue:suspect: My feeling is that he is disappointed by the reason why Kylo didn't get the map because he goes straight to this point:

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

Obviously Snoke doesn't care about the Rey's Force power. He even doesn't care about the map at this moment. He is concerned that Kylo feels compassion for her, that he may have feeling for her. Even the use of the word "flat" to describe his tone sounds so weird. I mean, this sounds like the reaction of someone who is upset that the person he "cares" has feeling for another, right   Then, we are reminded that their relationship is somehow intimate: Snoke knows all about Kylo since it is stressed that nobody else would have perceived what he perceives. And then, we are told how Kylo feels about Snoke's rebuke.

No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

And then the best for the end:

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

[...]

"Kylo Ren, it appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me."

Seriously: if Snoke doesn't behave with Kylo like a jealous lover, I don't know what it is. I mean, he could have told him: " You promised when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail the FO". And yet, he reminds him that Kylo promised him he wouldn't fail him personally. That sounds so much like an outraged lover who is hurt because his partner didn't keep a promise   And finally, the outraged lover intends to punish his lover as well solve the problem: he asks Kylo to bring him the girl obviously for something else that for some interest in her powers as if he wanted to get rid of the potential rival.

Even if it wasn't in the movie, these lines are canon. What I believe is that Snoke won't get interested in making Rey an ally: he will probably see her as a big threat since she is what endangers his relationship and agenda with Kylo. She has already sort being set as his rival in TFA:


However, we know from the SW databank that Kylo's allegiance has already begun to change although he told Snoke in the novel that his allegiance was only to him (interestingly not to the FO). We also know from J.J. that Ben somehow knows that Snoke is using/abusing him. Plus, we have this shot that reminds me so much of Rapunzel's rebellion against Gothel:



So my feeling is that Ben will realize what Snoke agenda is for him and try to escape this abusive relationship. So I believe in a scenario where Ben will experience some liberty during TLJ - maybe leading him to turn clearly against the FO - but  Snoke -whoever or whatever it is - will claim Ben to be his property by the end and achieve with him what he intended to do for so long. So I believe in a big dramatic and dark scenario with Snoke (and the FO) ultimately possessing Ben against his own will, getting some living source of power as achievement of the huge agenda  and thus obtaining the weapon of mass destruction in the continuity of the Death Star and SKB... and the rich assholes getting a lot of red ores from the FO as a reward they  contributed the FO's victory on Crait and to ensure their further financial support

In this scenario, Leia would have all the reasons to feel destroyed and the audience to feel much empathy for Ben. And let's say it: Ben looks more than ever like a  some vulnerable Prince(ss) in distress needing to be saved from something whatever it is:

SkyStar wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Someone on twitter posted a side-by-side juxtaposition of all of the new teaser posters.  The differences in the Kylo/Rey posters really stand out even more when compared directly with the Resistance posters.

@ISeeAnIsland

looks like they both ar leaving with Rey looking back for the last time

@SkyStar

Right. When you look at the posters side-by-side, Finn, Poe, and Leia all appear to be stationary but looking at something. Rey and Kylo, on the other hand, appear to be heading somewhere in the same direction. Luke also appears to be headed somewhere, but in the opposite direction of Rey and Kylo.

You can also separate the poster by "partners": Luke and Leia as brother and sister, Finn and Poe as best friends and allies, Rey and Kylo as heroine and villain with destinies intertwined.

reylo1992 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.

@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.

@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.

@motherofpearl1


[size=50]Yes. I wonder if even Leia's faith in Ben's light is shaken at that point, maybe even warning her that she believed her son was still light and was wrong. But Rey insists that's not the case, now alienating herself from Leia. And with that said... We had the rumor Rey ends up in captivity at the end and the statement from Daisy Rey will be emotionally hurt. This is total conjecture but Ben and Rey taking on Praetorian guards leading to Snoke only to have Ben (seemingly) turn her over to him is a possibility. It's like Snape killing Dumbledore after Rowling built up his sympathetic backstory. It risks the audience hating his guts between TLJ and IX, but it would be a bold move and a definite cliffhanger.[/size]

@MeadowofAshes

Hmm...I don't believe it would be the case. Like I wrote in one of my previous posts, I believe that this scene rather occurs by the very end of the movie because Leia looks so solitary and grim like someone who has lost everything. Plus, I indeed that Rey is neither gonna turn turn to the DS nor end up prisoner or in some near-death state. Her character was obviously not written to end up in some passive state, waiting that someone comes to deliver her.

So that's why I tend to much to believe that something terrible will most likely happen to Ben. However, I don't believe in the scenario of Ben turning good and then turning bad again because committing treason would make him only pitiful to the audience. I believe that the best way  have the audience feeling complete empathy with him is to have him becoming the FO's super weapon against his own will. The poster refers him as "the Lost" which is extremely ambiguous: lost in the sense of emotionally lost lost in the sense of not to be redeemed because of his crime or lost in the sense that he may end up in some near-death state forever

Leia already experienced the painful feeling to have her son committing a patricide in TFA although she thought he had still light What could be more tragic for her than having her son coming back to the light but ending up sort of lost forever because Snoke ultimately got what he wanted from him

Of cours, all these assumption are based on my theory that we will get some kind of Atlantis scenario in TLJ with Ben as Kida, being used by Snoke and the FO to get some super weapon. The fact is that the FO obviously used the money of some rich assholes of Canto Bright to build their weapon SKB to control the galaxy. Unfortunately, the SKB was destroyed, which means that the money that the rich a** gave to finance the FO was spent for nothing since SKB was used only once to destroy Hosnian Prime. So we may assume that the rich a** ain't gonna spend their money in financing another SKB. I already pointed out that the screenwriters introduced some continuity between the weapon of mass destruction: Death Star I, Death Star II, SKB. They are all terrific weapons but all got destroyed because they all had a weak point. So I guess that the FO will try to have another weapon of mass destruction but won't spend so many years constructing a weapon that would have a weak point - especially if the rich a** ain't ready to pay again for that.

So let's assume what's the point to have Snoke and the FO sending Hux there. We know that Snoke - like the rich a** - is very bling-bling. He obviously like luxurious objects and we know that he'll need this super weapon of mass destruction. We also know that he needs for some reason the financial support of the rich assholes to finance the FO activities. And we know that Crait will be the centerpiece of the battle between the FO and the Resistance and have a key role in the movie. I had never heard about Crait before because I missed the whole story during my absence of the forum.

However, we know that Crait is some salty planet whose underground is made is...red ores

We know from Rian that he got some inspiration from Letter Never Sent where geologists are sent to find diamonds for the Soviet Government in order to finance some weapon. Plus, providing that he got some inspiration from the Atlantis scenario, we have some potential scenario about mercenaries who are ready to make money with the Atlantis cristal - a living source of power - no matter that it endangers the survival of an entire civilization. Finally, we know from RO that the Empire used kyber cristal to power Death Star I and Death II and then that the FO used the power of the Sun to power SKB. Then, what do they need to use as the next source of power of the new weapon of mass destruction if not something "pure, strong, unbreakable" like Snoke says in TFA:?:

I find the absence of Snoke in the promotional process extremely suspicious unless it appears that he is indeed either Luke or Kylo himself for some weird reason. Plus, we are told a lot about Luke and Rey's relationship but few about Snoke and Ben's relationship. Personally, I can't imagine that Snoke has been working so hard with Ben from the whomb just to decide that he isn't worth of his attention anymore.

At a first sight, Snoke seems to represent for Kylo what Palpatine represented for Anakin: a father figure. However, I feel that their dynamic is different. Although Anakin was manipulated from a young age, Palpatine only played the role of some kind, wise but machiavelic father figure watching over him from distance. Anakin grew up with a loving motheraway from his influence in hisearly years, then developed some special bond with Obi-Wan during his Padawan training and finally found love with Padme as a Jedi Knight. Palpatine never ever considered these bonds like a threat even later when it came to Luke's compassion with his father. He always tried to manipulate relationships to his advantage but never tried to prevent emotional bonds to develop. If I should describe Palpatine and Anakin's relationship in one word, I would chose "paternalism".

However things appear completely different in regard to Snoke and Kylo's relationship. We know from the novel Aftermath that Snoke had been watching Ben even before that child was born. I don't know who is Snoke but I was always intrigued by this passage of the novel where Leia sits next to a potted flower from Endor, tries to reach out to the plant and suddently feels some dark presence within her. I have always wondered if there wasn't some callback to E.T. the Extraterrestrial there. We know from Pablo that even if Snoke is an humanoid, he is no human. He indeed looks very much like an alien. Plus, it was revealed by Spielberg that E.T. is actually a plant. We also know that Rey was supposed to see a boy accompanied with Snoke during her vision. In E.T., we get a lonely boy - hurt by the failure of his parent's marriage - who finds in an alien his only friend and develops an unexpected strong bond with him. E.T. and Elliott become at some point so bonded that their lives become interdependant as if they were one. That's why, I believe Snoke to represent much more to Ben than a father figure because he's probably become the most important part of his life in 30 years, the person who knows him the most :

"When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood in sharp contrast with the commanding tone he had used with Hux"

However, Snoke represents for Ben what some dark version of E.T. could have represented for Elliott: a toxic, possessive and exclusive friend. When I once mentioned Sben/Snylo for fun, some part of me was serious there. Perhaps I am wrong to think that but it seems to me that Snoke behaves with Ben like a possessive lover/friend would do. Their relationship ain't based on paternalism (like Palpatine and Anakin) but on possessiveness.

That's why, I believe that Snoke will do anything to possess Kylo at all costs and the way he talks to him is somehow...inappropriate

The way he describes their relationship in the TFA novel is extremely telling and disturbing: he considers himself like a sculptor who is working with the finest material. A few weeks ago, I watched the movie Rodin: it took 30 years for the scuptor Auguste Rodin to achieve his masterpiece called The Gates of Hell! It required time and patience to work with the material and achieved what he wanted to do with it:


So I guess that like any artist, Sboke considers the material and the product of his work as his property. That's why I can't believe that Snoke would let Ben go that easily: he has been working for thirty years so hard with that child as a material to achieve a masterpiece. And we know from Andy Serkis himself that Snoke has a huge agenda but that this agenda is limited by his vulnerability.

To me, it is obvious that Snoke needs Ben for very specific goal and that he is using him to achieve it. Plus, the way he is talking to him sounds to me like a sculptor who is praising his muse if not the way a guy telling a girl how much he is in love with her. I mean one could easily replace some lines of their dialogue with the lines of a guy courting a girl by telling her how beautiful and precious she is to him:
"I have never had a student with such promise - before you" sounds a little like "I have never met a girl like you before"
"I have - you" sounds a little like "you're mine" or "you belong to me"
Even the way ADF stresses before you and you with th hyphen sign looks so disturbing. Really gets the sensation to read something innaprorpriate, way too intimate.

The next passage is even worse when I think about it. Snoke's reaction to Kylo's compassion for Rey looks so similar to a jealous lover:

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

I mean, there are two things so odd there. Why does Snoke need to stress Rey's gender telling this scavenger - this girl - as if it was an important detail for him. Plus what for is he disappointed by Kylo? Certainly not disappointed that Kylo  didn't get the map from her : he doesn't  even mention the map in the dialogue:suspect: My feeling is that he is disappointed by the reason why Kylo didn't get the map because he goes straight to this point:

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

Obviously Snoke doesn't care about the Rey's Force power. He even doesn't care about the map at this moment. He is concerned that Kylo feels compassion for her, that he may have feeling for her. Even the use of the word "flat" to describe his tone sounds so weird. I mean, this sounds like the reaction of someone who is upset that the person he "cares" has feeling for another, right   Then, we are reminded that their relationship is somehow intimate: Snoke knows all about Kylo since it is stressed that nobody else would have perceived what he perceives. And then, we are told how Kylo feels about Snoke's rebuke.

No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

And then the best for the end:

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

[...]

"Kylo Ren, it appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me."

Seriously: if Snoke doesn't behave with Kylo like a jealous lover, I don't know what it is. I mean, he could have told him: " You promised when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail the FO". And yet, he reminds him that Kylo promised him he wouldn't fail him personally. That sounds so much like an outraged lover who is hurt because his partner didn't keep a promise   And finally, the outraged lover intends to punish his lover as well solve the problem: he asks Kylo to bring him the girl obviously for something else that for some interest in her powers as if he wanted to get rid of the potential rival.

Even if it wasn't in the movie, these lines are canon. What I believe is that Snoke won't get interested in making Rey an ally: he will probably see her as a big threat since she is what endangers his relationship and agenda with Kylo. She has already sort being set as his rival in TFA:


However, we know from the SW databank that Kylo's allegiance has already begun to change although he told Snoke in the novel that his allegiance was only to him (interestingly not to the FO). We also know from J.J. that Ben somehow knows that Snoke is using/abusing him. Plus, we have this shot that reminds me so much of Rapunzel's rebellion against Gothel:



So my feeling is that Ben will realize what Snoke agenda is for him and try to escape this abusive relationship. So I believe in a scenario where Ben will experience some liberty during TLJ - maybe leading him to turn clearly against the FO - but  Snoke -whoever or whatever it is - will claim Ben to be his property by the end and achieve with him what he intended to do for so long. So I believe in a big dramatic and dark scenario with Snoke (and the FO) ultimately possessing Ben against his own will, getting some living source of power as achievement of the huge agenda  and thus obtaining the weapon of mass destruction in the continuity of the Death Star and SKB... and the rich assholes getting a lot of red ores from the FO as a reward they  contributed the FO's victory on Crait and to ensure their further financial support

In this scenario, Leia would have all the reasons to feel destroyed and the audience to feel much empathy for Ben. And let's say it: Ben looks more than ever like a  some vulnerable Prince(ss) in distress needing to be saved from something whatever it is:

@reylo1992

I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma
The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.

I haven't forgotten that quote from Adam about "It depends on what your definition of living is."  I'm not saying he'll end up frozen in carbonite, but I imagine he'll end up much like his father at the end of RotJ - incapacitated somehow, most likely by the hand of Snoke.  Depending on what went down between him and Rey on Ach-To, she might sense his distress while on Crait, and finally make the decision to go after him, both for Ben and the fate of the galaxy.  

Someone today mentioned Finn and Rose budding relationship being the catalyst for Rey to examine her own relationship with Ben, and possibly go after him, particularly if he's in distress.  I couldn't agree more with this. I'm sure Rey in TFA thought there might possibly be something more with Finn at one point and when she sees he's moved on, she'll know things on her end have changed too.  

I always liked Finn's character and it's a nice way to wrap things up so it doesn't look like he's completely sidelined by Rey for the tall, dark haired "villain."

IoJovi wrote:I haven't forgotten that quote from Adam about "It depends on what your definition of living is. I'm not saying he'll end up frozen in carbonite, but I imagine he'll end up much like his father at the end of RotJ - incapacitated somehow, most likely by the hand of Snoke. Depending on what went down between him and Rey on Ach-To, she might sense his distress while on Crait, and finally make the decision to go after him, both for Ben and the fate of the galaxy.

Someone today mentioned Finn and Rose budding relationship being the catalyst for Rey to examine her own relationship with Ben, and possibly go after him, particularly if he's in distress. I couldn't agree more with this. I'm sure Rey in TFA thought there might possibly be something more with Finn at one point and when she sees he's moved on, she'll know things on her end have changed too.

I always liked Finn's character and it's a nice way to wrap things up so it doesn't look like he's completely sidelined by Rey for the tall, dark haired "villain."

@IoJovi

Nicely said.

@reylo1992

I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma
The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.[/quote]
@Persephone

Completely! Since Adam said that I have always thought that Ben would be the one to end up TLJ in a weird state. I have long thought that Rey could turn to the DS but I must say that I find the scenario of Prince Rey saving Princess Ben is more realistic with her character because Rey ain't meant to become passive. And totally agree about the love triangle even if it sounds so weird having Snoke as some kind of abusive and possessive lover but it reminds in some way of that French film Belphegor. Belphegor is a momie who takes possession of the body and soul of a young woman named Lisa...

and obviously he is possessive with her and very jealous of her love interest. During a bed scene, Belphegor briefly comes out from Lisa's body, turns around them and then takes possession of her in order to have her strangling her lover.

And now that that I am thinking about this, there's something else that I realize. We know that Snoke's theme is briefly heard before Ben kills his father, which makes me assume that Snoke sort of took possession of him at this moment. Could it be that this also happened during the cliff moment? Kylo could have killed Rey by pushing her and yet didn't do it. Instead, a Force moment followed during which they obviously connected during a brief moment. Then, Rey - who looked so peaceful -suddently becomes totally aggressive, sort of taping into the DS. I have always found strange that she became so aggressive after being so relaxed in just a wink of blink. Could it be that her anger toward Kylo wasn't her own but actually...Snoke's???

When you think about it, Kylo sort of bretayed Snoke four times (You promised me that you wouldn't fail me!)
1. When he chose to take the girl instead of the droide, which was later  revealed by Hux
2. When he expressed compassion toward the girl instead of searching for the map, which was revealed by the novel
3. When he considered leaving the FO during his confrontation with Han, which was revealed by J.J.Abrams himself
4. When he made the girl the teaching proposal
If Snoke is kind of possessive lover, he must have felt sort of cheated more than once in a few hours

So could it be that Snoke couldn't bring Kylo to kill Rey during the cliff - like he did for Han because of the Force moment - but briefly could take possession of Rey - because something clearly passes from him to her - and use her to punish Kylo? Like some of us pointed out, Rey expresses unnecessary cruelty toward him as if she took pleasure in making him suffer. She even scares him to make him look ugly as it would solve the problem by making him less appealing to her. And then she hears a voice telling him to kill him but then quickly comes to her senses before stricking. I don't know whether it makes sense or not but if Snoke sort of used Rey to express his rage toward Kylo,it could also explain why Rey became suddently so powerful and copied Kylo's fighting style so well...

reylo1992 wrote:
And now that that I am thinking about this, there's something else that I realize. We know that Snoke's theme is briefly heard before Ben kills his father, which makes me assume that Snoke sort of took possession of him at this moment. Could it be that this also happened during the cliff moment? Kylo could have killed Rey by pushing her and yet didn't do it. Instead, a Force moment followed during which they obviously connected during a brief moment. Then, Rey - who looked so peaceful -suddently becomes totally aggressive, sort of taping into the DS. I have always found strange that she became so aggressive after being so relaxed in just a wink of blink. Could it be that her anger toward Kylo wasn't her own but actually...Snoke's???

When you think about it, Kylo sort of bretayed Snoke four times (You promised me that you wouldn't fail me!)
1. When he chose to take the girl instead of the droide, which was later  revealed by Hux
2. When he expressed compassion toward the girl instead of searching for the map, which was revealed by the novel
3. When he considered leaving the FO during his confrontation with Han, which was revealed by J.J.Abrams himself
4. When he made the girl the teaching proposal
If Snoke is kind of possessive lover, he must have felt sort of cheated more than once in a few hours

So could it be that Snoke couldn't bring Kylo to kill Rey during the cliff - like he did for Han because of the Force moment - but briefly could take possession of Rey - because something clearly passes from him to her - and use her to punish Kylo? Like some of us pointed out, Rey expresses unnecessary cruelty toward him as if she took pleasure in making him suffer. She even scares him to make him look ugly as it would solve the problem by making him less appealing to her. And then she hears a voice telling him to kill him but then quickly comes to her senses before stricking. I don't know whether it makes sense or not but if Snoke sort of used Rey to express his rage toward Kylo,it could also explain why Rey became suddently so powerful and copied Kylo's fighting style so well...

@reylo1992
This makes a lot of sense!  

SkyStar wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Someone on twitter posted a side-by-side juxtaposition of all of the new teaser posters.  The differences in the Kylo/Rey posters really stand out even more when compared directly with the Resistance posters.

@ISeeAnIsland

looks like they both ar leaving with Rey looking back for the last time

@SkyStar

Just realized something! I knew that I already saw the same kind of posters somewhere


About Rey looking back a last time, from the Song Days in the Sun:
[BELLE]
How in the midst of all this sorrow
Can so much hope and love endure?
I was innocent and certain
Now I'm wiser but unsure

I can't go back into my childhood
One that my father made secure
I can feel a change in me
I'm stronger now, but still not free



About Poe, Finn and Leia's stationary stance, it's pretty interesting in regard to 2017 BATB because if thhe curse ain't broken, Mrs Pott. and the other will end up in a stationary state so becoming objects forever

Persephone wrote:

IoJovi wrote:I haven't forgotten that quote from Adam about "It depends on what your definition of living is.  I'm not saying he'll end up frozen in carbonite, but I imagine he'll end up much like his father at the end of RotJ - incapacitated somehow, most likely by the hand of Snoke.  Depending on what went down between him and Rey on Ach-To, she might sense his distress while on Crait, and finally make the decision to go after him, both for Ben and the fate of the galaxy.  

Someone today mentioned Finn and Rose budding relationship being the catalyst for Rey to examine her own relationship with Ben, and possibly go after him, particularly if he's in distress.  I couldn't agree more with this. I'm sure Rey in TFA thought there might possibly be something more with Finn at one point and when she sees he's moved on, she'll know things on her end have changed too.  

I always liked Finn's character and it's a nice way to wrap things up so it doesn't look like he's completely sidelined by Rey for the tall, dark haired "villain."

@IoJovi

Nicely said.

@Persephone

Yep! I don't think he will end up either in freezing carbonite but in some close state, based once again on the assumption that TFA had some big similarities with E.T. and TFA/R.O. with Atlantis:




Let's not forget the parallel we've pointed out on the forum with Sleeping Beauty

Can't imagine Rey in that state...
And providing that they got some inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, let's keep in mind that LRRH ends up eaten by the Wolf and delivered by a Hunter. However, hard for me to imagine that it's Rey who would end up eaten by the Wolf no matter if it's Snoke or Luke himself for some weirdreason. It just doesn't fit well with her character in general to imagine her spending most of Episode 9 in some passive state.

So providing that this kind of scenario could happen, maybe Rey will get emotionally hurt because the connection will be severed due to Kylo's state.So she wouldn't be only separated from him physically but also spiritually, left with a feeling of lost and longing that is needed to develop their romance in the next episode:

And as Rey is someone very determined, I guess she will go after him like Elliott, Milo and Philipp went after E.T., Kida and Aurora to save them. This  is maybe the sense of the direction they're heading in the poster/. He goes to a direction and she goes after him still looking back at her past but finally  understanding that the belonging she seeks is not behind her but ahead. She already lost for good her past belong with her birth family and may have lost for good her future belonging.