Re: Discussion: Podcasts

by Lucina Sat 03 Jun 2017, 2:31 pm

WhatGirl wrote:
Acritiqua wrote:She owned his *** twice. He's been humbled.
@Acritiqua

It was not really a matter of her being more powerful than him, though. Both times (the interrogation and snow duel) it was his compassion that allowed him to be defeated by a complete novice in the Force. Also, for the duel in the forest, he was badly injured and she wasn't. So I don't really see it as Kylo "getting owned" by a stronger Force user. And I imagine that getting his face and shoulder sliced open will make him quite angry and less likely to go easy on Rey in their next encounter. It'll be interesting to see how he does in a duel at full strength and health.

@WhatGirl

What I always find annoying is when people say that Kylo is weak for losing to an untrained girl in a lightsaber duel, without taking his physical and mental state into account. As I see it, Kylo lost the fight because

a) He was bleeding to death from the bowcaster wound
b) He was overidden with guilt after killing his father and thus unfocused
c) He didn’t intend to kill or seriously injure Rey due to being intrigued by her

But some people don’t even see that he’s conflicted about killing his dad... Rolling Eyes

I don’t doubt that Kylo is a strong force user (He’s a Skywalker after all!) and hope that we will eventually get to see his full abilities in the next two films.

by guardienne Sat 03 Jun 2017, 2:47 pm

Sacrebleu wrote:

He did a nice job, I thought. But yeah, even as I was listening and agreeing I was thinking but real life doesn't work quite that way, which begets the question: Do I want films to reflect real life, or do I want films not to reflect real life?

I loved Rogue One on initial viewing and saw it twice in the space of a week, but there's no doubt it has not stayed with me the way Force Awakens has.

@Sacrebleu

they both exist. i mean, in the sense that you can 'replicate' life at all, which is impossible, so.

i mean, that doesn't answer the question of what you'd want. ... i have often felt that my favourite stories were the ones that reflected life in a heightened sort of way. so, i can watch them and imagine all the mundane stuff that films don't show you or that books don't tell you. i think that's good sort of mental exercise and analysis actually.

i think film is not taken incredibly serious by cultural critics, so people can get away with pretty audacious things sometimes. ... but, yeah, what i like is to feel that it's both completely artificial but that the people making it took it serious and somehow believed in it. that's really the ideal combination. i'm not sure i'm good with stories that break the fourth wall very obviously, i don't like being winked at like that. i don't like to feel like i'm watching some gigantic in-joke. i want to be emotionally immersed and i can't do that if everyone winks at the artificiality of it all.

rogue one i think backed itself in a corner by wanting to seamlessly stick to a new hope and i think they couldn't figure out how to make jyn's character sing at all. i've rarely seen a movie that got so busy with unnecessary plot. i don't think the writers really knew how to fill the time effectively but they always knew what the end should be.

TFA, even though it borrows so heavily from ANH, always feels like it's giving you a twist on a trope. so, you see star wars but you're seeing it anew. i think that is quite wonderful and extraordinary. R1 didn't give me those tingles at all.

by Guest Sat 03 Jun 2017, 3:25 pm

guardienne wrote:i think film is not taken incredibly serious by cultural critics, so people can get away with pretty audacious things sometimes. ... but, yeah, what i like is to feel that it's both completely artificial but that the people making it took it serious and somehow believed in it. that's really the ideal combination. i'm not sure i'm good with stories that break the fourth wall very obviously, i don't like being winked at like that. i don't like to feel like i'm watching some gigantic in-joke. i want to be emotionally immersed and i can't do that if everyone winks at the artificiality of it all.

@guardienne

I agree and that's exactly the vibe I get from so many blockbuster films, that they're winking at the audience. Star Wars isn't afraid to be unabashedly majestic.

by guardienne Sat 03 Jun 2017, 3:38 pm

@sacrebleu not sure i would call it majestic, i think it's just not ironic. characters say things like, there is still light in him! you are afraid that you'll never be as strong... etc. and they utterly mean this. it's hilarious, really. i think all the comic relief is really needed because otherwise the conversations would be unbearable because no one in the history of the world speaks like this. but i don't watch it finding it ridiculous, i find that it makes it meaningful. surely if these ridiculous space wizards can mean it, maybe it's true?! maybe 'good' exists and 'evil' and the 'force'?

to them that's real, so what can you do. you can give in to it and get taken along for the ride or you can cross your arms and refuse it all. i know i have done both. and i love having conversations with co-workers about how something is 'realistic' ahahahaha

in a way, i think a lot of writers wink at the audience and i'm a serious person and i can't handle that. it is ridiculous as a story if you tell the bare bones of it. but we buy into it and somehow that makes it take on meaning and that contract would be broken if the writers ever acknowledged the ridiculousness of it all.

i think they violate some of the contract with the audience with how they wrote finn because of how you buy into the troopers being real people with wit and intelligence and personality and then see them murdered again. it's massively grating and i wish i could edit it away in some way.

by **Darth Rowan** Sat 03 Jun 2017, 3:57 pm

guardienne wrote:
i thought this was so interesting in terms of how masculinity has been portrayed by ford explicitly but also how wildly (widely?) reylo differs from it.

@guardienne

Huh. Maybe this is just me, but I feel like this breakdown of the Han/Leia dynamic in ESB is very agenda driven, to the point where objectivity is not really a concern here. Specifically he's talking about the first Hanleia kiss scene, and there is a misreading of the verbal and non-verbal cues between the characters and a tone-deaf interpretation of body language and dialogue that is offered by the podcaster sometimes entirely without context. It strikes me as an often deliberate misread to make the (unfortunate) point that Han is a creepy predator in that scene with Leia, and that doesn't sit right with me. :/

The speaker is counting 8 instances in which Leia is rejecting Han's advances, but some of those aren't rejections at all. More importantly, some of the so called rejections are followed by receptive cues from Leia that can be interpreted as encouragement, and that is never explored in the commentary at all.

What most bugged me is that the speaker counts Leia's saying "Stop calling me that" (i.e., Han calling her "Your Worship") as a sign that she is clearly rejecting Han's advances. But we see that when she says "Stop calling me that" Han immediately replies "Sure, Leia") . I actually see that dynamic as the complete opposite of rejection. She's basically telling him to cut the crap and get real with her - stop the name-calling, the subterfuge and deflection - and Han immediately acquiesces, and there's a new softness in his tone that's telling of the fact that he's probably been wanting to move past the witticisms to "get real" too. And then she says "You make it so difficult sometimes" - again, communicating to him that she'd want for things to be different between them - and that's when he moves in physically closer. To me the scene is a mutual lowering of the guard, an acknowledgement of the mutual attraction and desire to connect without needing to always poke and prod at each other. It's my favorite Han and Leia moment, actually, because it's so true to the characters and at the same time so relatable to me.

He does take her hand and she says "Stop that," and so he does stop - he pauses in his massaging of her hand until she says "My hands are dirty," which is an obvious excuse. There's an opening there for him, and he takes it. They've tested each other, he knows that she can put him in his place if she really wanted to so there's an unspoken layer of trust there, imo. There's a prior knowledge and a dynamic there that was building up to this, and the podcaster is not just downplaying but completely overlooking in order to make his predator!Han point.

And, to wit, seduction can be about a push and pull, and being chased, and being a little bit roguish, and getting into people's personal space, and as long as both people are willing participants I don't see that it's fair to demonize the man for being assertive. Some women are even into that kind of consensual assertiveness. n_n

Continue Rowan's Exceptionally Long Rant About Masculinity in Han Solo and in Rowan's Mind:

by guardienne Sat 03 Jun 2017, 4:10 pm

@darth rowan

i totally agree it is more complex than what he makes it out to be. i think she gives a lot of nonverbal clues and he tkes those hints as well...

i think though... and i found that more interesting (and i really cannot possibly comment on how women are supposed to be this and that and it tires the ever loving s*** out of me - i just cannot discuss myself as a gender anymore, i feel. and not because i've newly discovered some agenderness about myself or anything) is that the blade runner as well as the indy scene are pretty similar and how that portrayed a certain type of masculinity. (dude is interested in masculinty and he makes some excellent points in videos about trump's sexism and how masculinity is portrayed in fantastic beasts, which i haven't seen, so have a look.)

i think i can go along with that. it's not about who ford is or how he peronally romances women but about how that sort of stuff has been written in that time for a mass audience.

this is jumbled.

i don't agree with reading these scenes literally because they aren't literal courtship, but i can see how TFA really also comments on them and tells you a different story. if that makes sense.

i can see that from a certain pov they are uncomfortable to watch. this is how they derive drama as well. but i like the contrast with frozen because it can be written differently and both is possible?

i think my short answer is that film is not to be taken literal and dude goes way into that direction. but also that there is a pattern.

by **Darth Rowan** Sat 03 Jun 2017, 4:21 pm

@guardienne

Yup, I definitely agree that there is a point to be made about the portrayal of masculinity in Han Solo (and all "Harrison Ford type characters") and how that contrasts with what we've seen of Kylo Ren. In fact I've thought from day one that the reason why the "Kylo hate" even began was because of some men's rejection of what is perceived as a weak male on screen, i.e, "Crylo Ren". We're actually working on a podcast about this right now. ^^

guardienne wrote:
(dude is interested in masculinty and he makes some excellent points in videos about trump's sexism and how masculinity is portrayed in fantastic beasts, which i haven't seen, so have a look.)

That's interesting about Fantastic Beasts, there are definitely a lot of interesting (and contrasting) male figures to analyze in that movie. I'll check that out, thanks for the rec.

By the way I still haven't gotten around to seeing Blade Runner. -___-

by Acritiqua Sat 03 Jun 2017, 4:39 pm

WhatGirl wrote:
Acritiqua wrote:She owned his *** twice. He's been humbled.
@Acritiqua

It was not really a matter of her being more powerful than him, though. Both times (the interrogation and snow duel) it was his compassion that allowed him to be defeated by a complete novice in the Force. Also, for the duel in the forest, he was badly injured and she wasn't. So I don't really see it as Kylo "getting owned" by a stronger Force user. And I imagine that getting his face and shoulder sliced open will make him quite angry and less likely to go easy on Rey in their next encounter. It'll be interesting to see how he does in a duel at full strength and health.

@WhatGirl I wasn't commenting on who is more powerful or the stronger force user or on why I think Kylo lost in each case. There's nothing for you to defend against since I wasn't saying Kylo is weaker than Rey or that he was owned by a stronger force user. Please don't put words in my mouth.

by guardienne Sat 03 Jun 2017, 5:18 pm

Darth Rowan wrote:@guardienne

Yup, I definitely agree that there is a point to be made about the portrayal of masculinity in Han Solo (and all "Harrison Ford type characters") and how that contrasts with what we've seen of Kylo Ren. In fact I've thought from day one that the reason why the "Kylo hate" even began was because of some men's rejection of what is perceived as a weak male on screen, i.e, "Crylo Ren". We're actually working on a podcast about this right now. ^^

guardienne wrote:
(dude is interested in masculinty and he makes some excellent points in videos about trump's sexism and how masculinity is portrayed in fantastic beasts, which i haven't seen, so have a look.)

That's interesting about Fantastic Beasts, there are definitely a lot of interesting (and contrasting) male figures to analyze in that movie. I'll check that out, thanks for the rec.

By the way I still haven't gotten around to seeing Blade Runner. -___-

@Darth Rowan

you know, i'm very much totally looking forward to the new blade runner and i watched the old one relatively recently and i can't see how it would ever become my favourite movie. i think it's compelling definitely but i don't love it the way some people love it. very little of it actually stuck with me. it's a good mood piece, though. mood is important.

if you agree with me re: masculinity, i think you'll like the FB essay. because i haven't seen it, i'm not sure whether i would have seen it the same way, but it was interesting to think how male heroes are often portrayed. now, of course, kylo isn't the hero Wink

we could pass some useful time wondering what ben would have been like as hero ... because i wonder how that would have changed the story. i assume it would have changed it significantly. but also made it much less compelling and not really moved anyone forward.

i mean, he would have been a jedi and made his sabre but he might still have been in conflict with his dad's ideas of masculinity, right? i'm not assuming that all his conflict is generated through family dynamics but i assume some of it is.

(newt has some autistic-type traits and apparently they're not being pathologised or having to be overcome which sounds really compelling to me as well (apparently sherlock went down that route and ... screw representation). )

by Saracene Sat 03 Jun 2017, 8:41 pm

The stormtrooper video does a great job analysing the problem with the characterisation of Finn and other stormtroopers.

The Rogue One vs. TFA video makes a few good points, especially when it comes to Rey's character introduction vs Jyn's, but I can't really agree with the idea of Rey as an active protagonist. The movie makes it sound like she wants to help BB-8 return to the Resistance, but in practice, Rey ends up leaving her home because she's chased off it by the FO attack, not because she actively decides to leave. Then later she chides Finn for leaving and reminds him that they need to get BB-8 back to the Resistance, only to forget about BB-8 for the rest of the movie soon after. So this motivation that's meant to make her feel like an active protagonist has no real weight at all. It would be as if, in ANH, Luke started off wanting to help Leia, then forgot about her completely mid-way and got onto a completely different tangent.

by Kyla Ren Sat 03 Jun 2017, 10:13 pm

Saracene wrote:The stormtrooper video does a great job analysing the problem with the characterisation of Finn and other stormtroopers.

The Rogue One vs. TFA video makes a few good points, especially when it comes to Rey's character introduction vs Jyn's, but I can't really agree with the idea of Rey as an active protagonist. The movie makes it sound like she wants to help BB-8 return to the Resistance, but in practice, Rey ends up leaving her home because she's chased off it by the FO attack, not because she actively decides to leave. Then later she chides Finn for leaving and reminds him that they need to get BB-8 back to the Resistance, only to forget about BB-8 for the rest of the movie soon after. So this motivation that's meant to make her feel like an active protagonist has no real weight at all. It would be as if, in ANH, Luke started off wanting to help Leia, then forgot about her completely mid-way and got onto a completely different tangent.

@Saracene

Yes, and not only that, but when they're on the Millennium Falcon and Rey is asking Finn where his base is and BB-8 says it's in the Ileenium system, she doesn't want to accompany them all the way there. She says she'll drop them off at Ponemah Terminal, after having told BB-8 only moments earlier that both she and Finn would get him home. Later at Maz's cantina she seems to change her tune and is willing to see the mission through to the end. But at first it seems that all she wants to do is get back to Jakku. This has always puzzled me, actually, because what did she think was going to happen when she got back to Jakku after beating up Unkar's thugs and taking the Millennium Falcon? Did she really think that she wouldn't face any kind of retribution from Unkar and company? Or did she think they would all just would welcome her back and that Unkar would keep giving her portions in exchange for the scavenged parts that she found?

by snufkin Sat 03 Jun 2017, 11:52 pm

sacrebleu wrote:Do I want films to reflect real life, or do I want films not to reflect real life?

That sounds an awful lot like the opening line from High Fidelity, "What came first, the music or the misery? Did I listen to pop music because I was miserable? Or was I miserable because I listened to pop music?" I've been a fan of the Letters from the Screenplay guy ever since he got noticed for the video about The Dark Knight and setting up an antagonist to push the protagonist. It's great to see him tackle R1, the supposedly 'superior' and 'more Star Wars' movie versus TFA, which actually does a better job simply in writing the psychological realities of the characters in a way that engages the viewer. Why else would we be here?

@Darth Rowan agreed with you on the analysis of that scene about being a specific type of dynamic between those two characters which involves a push-pull of power dynamics and lowering of guards. It's what they like about each other and is meant to be subtle in a way that a lot of movie viewers don't pick up on. They were originally written by one of the Hayes Code era screenwriters, Leigh Brackett, specifically because she'd worked with Howard Hawks. And the movies from that era were all about that push pull, women and men being of equal power/vulnerability, and sublimating overt sexuality into those nuances. Not that I am a fan of using $5 words, but it's the frisson. Which maybe in a more liberal time, audiences aren't attuned to that sort of thing unless they're hit over the head with it.

You're right that it's somebody misreading (willfully or otherwise) that scene and dynamic to prove a larger point they're trying to make. Kind of like the idiot clickbait article @nonesuch posted awhile back that could be boiled down to "I think Reylo is bad because there are all these other things going on with rape culture and representations of gender and romantic relationships in pop culture and the entertainment industry's absymall track record with female representation in film making and criticism that I want to write about. So I am going to latch on to this thing which I know has a certain amount of popularity and currency with younger audiences in order cherry pick examples and contort it to fit my thesis." And meanwhile we get the actually interesting aspects of what was shown in these characters, their dynamic, and what's happening in the larger franchise overlooked. Like (i.)What type of trope busting relationship, heroine-villain, romantic, unique to previous mainstream film etc is clearly being set up for these two? (ii.) how his characterization as the descendant of two icons of 1970s-80s masculinity is a comment both on changes in society and our discomfort with opening up masculinity to a range of emotions/representations? or as the rare example of The Female Gaze (iii) How the franchise itself isn't just having a female lead in a 'girls can be heroes' too message to open up the fandom, but simply in having more female characters in general, just present as heroine, villainess, sidekicks, supporting roles, extras being showing that women are part of this world? It's just kind of amazing that we're over here screwing around talking about this stuff because it's fun and interesting, meanwhile the 'serious' journalists and writers are pushing out that type of clickbaity crap while overlooking what's genuinely unique and worth discussing.

Also the predatory romance angle, yes to other examples (Blade Runner is a perfect example of how Rachel's journey is to go from femme fatale to damsel in distress who serves as a vehicle for Deckard to rediscover his humanity) but NOT when it comes to Carrie Fisher's roles. In general, 1970s post sexual revolution depictions on film was a gross boy's club (why do these "I hate Reylo types" not instead talking about the industry continuing to support Roman Polanski and Woody Allen? You know, actual predators). But as with Han and Leia, take a look at her debut (at 17 no less) in a seduction scene against classic womanizer Warren Beatty in Shampoo. She totally runs him and makes him look like a chump in that scene. Same goes with Han and Leia - she gives as good as she get and the whole reason you buy that he not only decides to come back and help the Rebellion and then stick around for 3 years is because of her. Han can be immature and an a**hole in a lot of their interactions, but he's there because she's so strong, tough, and clearly in charge. He respects that about her. Leia's nobody's fool or victim, least of all Han Solo's The same goes with Rey and Ben Solo/Kylo Ren - she holds her own and kicks his a**, he never once shows anything less than respect or awe for her strength.

by Helix Sun 04 Jun 2017, 12:49 am

The gender roles in movie romances helped it click in my head that I don't dislike a lot of romance in movies because it's 'icky' but because they conform to the basic roles. I thought I didn't like romance until I got out of those basic, patented romance tropes. Especially since the films I watch seem to have those bland romances in droves. I don't care/have never cared at all for HanLeia or Anidala ( controversial on the first, maybe not on the second Laughing

) because I don't like traditional romance and that's the reason I like Reylo. Kylo has more feminine aspects and Rey masculine when it comes to a romance and in general. I also prefer LBGT romance because the roles shift so often 2 masculine guys, a masculine and a feminine guy, etc. As a Bi guy I've been with people, regardless of their gender or mine, who easily fit the other 'role'. Reality isn't always like fiction and vice versa, but both can be just as diverse. tl:dr roles get boring and stale and hollywood doesn't like moving away from them. The roles themselves aren't even always bad, just overused.

All imo for me, of course.

by Cowgirlsamurai Sun 04 Jun 2017, 8:12 am

@guardienne

Thanks for sharing, both were really interesting!

I remember watching TFA for the first time and thinking, "Wow, they're giving the stormtroopers faces," and was expecting a big part of the plot to involve more of them defecting later and joining the Resistance, but it turned out to be just Finn. Then, I thought that maybe Finn was Force sensitive and that's what made him special and drove him to rebel, but seems like that's a nope.
Also, I found it unlikely that he would so readily shoot up his fellow troopers even though desperate to escape. (Like it was also hard to believe Captain Phasma would lower the shields to save herself from immediate danger.) I've never been in the military, but isn't comraderie amongst soldiers one of the strongest bonds? Should be especially true for Finn who was raised as a soldier with these other guys and we know he cares about some of them when he cradled his dying comrade on Jakku. I kind of chalked it up to, "Well maybe that's just how desperate Finn was to escape, and perhaps he'll try to help his friends some how in the next two films." (Sacrificing a few to save the many?)

by Guest Sun 04 Jun 2017, 8:34 am

@Cowgirlsamurai

I thought TFA veered too far into comedy relief territory with Finn's character, and I say that as someone who has always liked and appreciated the humor in Star Wars. I could see Finn firing on fellow soldiers in his desperation to escape, but I found the accompanying "woo hoo!s" too much. Likewise, I thought it was a mistake to play Finn's SKB scene with Phasma totally for laughs ("I'm in charge! I'm in charge!") It didn't do Finn or Phasma's characterizations any favors.

by Cowgirlsamurai Sun 04 Jun 2017, 9:32 am

@Sacrebleu

Yeah, I didn't think that anything about Finn's personality suggested that he had been a brainwashed child soldier, other than "We have to get away from the FO, you don't know what they're capable of, etc." He's too lovable and funny in that sense. Really curious to see what he and Rose's mission will be.

by snufkin Sun 04 Jun 2017, 10:40 am

There was a lot of potential for Finn in Kasdan's original idea for him to be an AWOL stormtrooper. But the character existed prior to the idea as a sidekick and was there for other characters (Rey, Han, Poe, & Kylo)'s exposition or to tease out what they were going through. At the same time he has the most complete Hero's Journey arc out of the three leads even if the particulars (woo hoo! shooting other troopers) frequently aren't too plausible. And because he was originally written as a sidekick, the story leans a little too heavily on him as comic relief. Will be interesting to see how he's written next. But I'm pretty not excited for it because he was so underserved in TFA and coasted on Boyega's charisma

by Kylo Men Sun 04 Jun 2017, 12:17 pm

About the predatory romance video ... haven't watched it, but I assume I know where it's coming from .... if a 23-year-old male gender studies student is thrown for a loop by the real-life male-female romantic dynamics, I'm not sure why that's my concern. I assume he's mystified by the enduring popularity of "Baby It's Cold Outside" and wants Democrats in Congress to pass a bill to change the lyrics.

As it pertains specifically to Han and Leia, any theory that doesn't get that Han wants Leia and Leia wants Han is only dealing superficially with the relationship. Han doesn't win Leia against her will. He couldn't. His actions are done to force her to confront what he knows and she knows she's feeling inside. It's stupid to suggest otherwise.

In the old days, I felt like the prude. Nowadays, I feel like Henry Miller.

by guardienne Sun 04 Jun 2017, 3:17 pm

i really wish that those people who are preemptively judging the predatory sexuality video would at least spend the time to watch it. i mean, you know, i read these posts as well. i think it's a matter of respect to the person who makes the effort. you are all entitled to disagree with it, but i don't think the dude comes to completely farfetched conclusions.

and there is an agenda behind the video, i'm not denying that, but it'm still thinking that it's a valid point? funny that.

by panki Sun 04 Jun 2017, 4:59 pm

guardienne wrote:i really wish that those people who are preemptively judging the predatory sexuality video would at least spend the time to watch it. i mean, you know, i read these posts as well. i think it's a matter of respect to the person who makes the effort. you are all entitled to disagree with it, but i don't think the dude comes to completely farfetched conclusions.

and there is an agenda behind the video, i'm not denying that, but it'm still thinking that it's a valid point? funny that.

@guardienne

I actually think the video has some level of validity....I cannot speak for other parts of the world....but I have seen movies from the 1980s and 1990s here where the hero pursues a heroine who keeps saying no, chases her on the road singing and grabbing at her inappropriately till she succumbs to his charms...and even scenes where the hero slaps the heroine and it is all considered acceptable....so the message to young men is that a girl who says no means yes, that you can eve tease a girl you are attracted to, touch her inappropriately and she will eventually reciprocate.

In the case of Han and Leia it is understood that Leia is attracted to him, but his method of pursuit is a bad message to young men about courtship, like it or not. What I like in TFA is that when Kylo initially acted aggressive, Rey put him in his place.....and when she got the lightsaber, he had respect and awe in his eyes, not anger that some female had bested him. So I am actually happy to move away from the Han-Leia romance...maybe it was nice at one time....but its not a romance among equals and has no place in this day and age.

by guardienne Sun 04 Jun 2017, 5:19 pm

@panki i'm torn and i'm really no expert or whatever.

i feel that these things are uncomfortable to watch. especially blade runner, not so much han/leia. i don't watch much romance to begin with and i don't analyse these things much because i feel like they aren't straight-up life lessons per se. i remember the debate over whether drug use in movies would get more people into drugs. i think somebody back then wrote how no one worries about pretty woman getting women into prostitution? it's not a 1:1 relationship but seeing those scenes back to back i think they show something about how these things were written. they do keep saying, women don't mean it. i understand that there is something like seduction and playfulness, i have occasionally been known to flirt myself, but it's persistent that the hero seems to get the girl through coercion.

the thing is, it's not that abuse and misogyny can't be portrayed in movies, it'd just be nice if it was called out in some way which it isn't. you could also construe that maybe these women are 'into it' but as far as i remember none of this is established in any way, so it's a moot point.

the contrast with kylo and rey is pretty obvious and wonderful in itself. i hope whoever they will be is equals not because either one can gain the upper hand and force it on the other because they are secretly into it or something.

by Cowgirlsamurai Sun 04 Jun 2017, 9:08 pm

Speaking of humanizing stormtroopers... Found this thought provoking page in the kids' "ABC-3PO" book tonight Very Happy

by Saracene Sun 04 Jun 2017, 10:29 pm

I felt like Finn had the ingredients for a good hero's journey arc, but it's undermined by JJ concentrating on how each individual scene plays, rather than what the scenes add up to.

Example: at the start of the film, Finn sees Rey attacked at the market, and his instant response is to help out this girl he's never met. Because the movie wants us to know that he's a good guy and like him, and get the humour out of "hah Rey is perfectly capable of rescuing herself, thanks very much". Which is fine, but then it takes the drama out of Finn coming to Rey's rescue later in the film; if he was already willing to help her at the very start, where's the growth for the character? Also, I got no sense that he had to overcome his fear of FO to help Rey, once she's taken he's adamant about rescuing her with no hesitation.

by jakkusun Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:00 am

Kinda late to the discussion, I think, but oh well. Here are some unoriginal and maybe not so popular thoughts. :/

I think the predatory masculinity video was pretty good at acknowledging the counter argument, actually, since they said that they have no doubt that the Han and Leia scene was intended to imply that Leia actually wanted it. And I agree. Leia is no victim. Han isn't supposed to be a creep. The scene still makes me uncomfortable and I have a similar perspective to the video. But I think that is okay. We all experience these things differently and it is okay to talk about it. The video was actually rather self-reflective and wasn't anywhere near raging about this (not that anyone specifically said he was raging). idk I just think, whether or not you agree with the video, the guy was being pretty respectful and measured with how he talked about it and I think that is a good thing?

And the Han and Leia scene was obviously the most tame example cause it seemed to be escalating throughout the video so it's not like the scene is evil. idk I still think it is really really important to talk about consent, whether or not everyone agrees, because there are lots of people who don't enjoy playing the traditional romance game, and some people don't respect or realize that and they can go way too far with people thinking they are just playing the game when they are not. I think you really have to know someone really well before you are able to read subtle cues like Han and Leia, but idk. Though I honestly prefer the whole boring consent thing anyway so I'm biased cause I hate when people try to flirt with me or tell me I am pretty and don't get the freaking message that I don't like it. xD

Also, I don't think that respecting clear consent makes a guy any less masculine (though there is absolutely nothing shameful about choosing to be a feminine kind of guy at all i wish society were even more open to it). In fact, I find it really manly, when a guy backs down at the first sign of someone being uncomfortable or conflicted, regardless of whether they know the person is really interested in them or there are mixed signals. It makes them seem really in control of themselves and the situation and safe to be around...which I think is really manly? And I find it really romantic because it seems like they really care about you and want you to feel safe around them? Idk just speaking from personal experience I guess. I just have loads of respect for people who are extra careful and respectful about consent and refuse to take risks by playing games that could lead to mistaking whether or not there is consent.

Idk I also just don't see Han as super masculine in the scene, though, so, oh well. Like, I don't consider what he is doing to be manly, so I guess that is my perspective. I actually just watched an old movie where a very feminine woman does a very similar thing to a man she liked, but in a more feminine way and it made me just as uncomfortable so idk...I don't think it has to be tied with masculinity, though I suppose it has been associated with it a lot. To me it's just a sort of playing hard-to-get with aggressive romantic advances game thing some people find romantic and if people are consenting to it, then cool, but I personally think it is good if people in society talk about it and be really careful in real life, cause obviously fantasy and reality are different and you might not read everyone's subtle cues right all the time until you know them well enough.

by Kylo Men Mon 05 Jun 2017, 3:17 am

I would just say that if you look at male-female relationships not as what they are but what you think they should be you're probably in for a long life of disillusionment.

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