Will there be a new Jedi Order by the end of the ST?

„I only know one truth: It’s time for the Jedi to end“ – Luke Skywalker

Ever since the teaser for The Last Jedi has been released, I’ve been wondering if the Jedi will truly come to an end in this new trilogy or if there will be a new, reformed, Jedi Order by the end of Episode IX.

What’s interesting is that the Jedi were basically wiped out two times already in the new canon (Order 66 and Luke’s Jedi Temple destruction). Could this be an indication that the Jedi Order as a concept is pretty much bound to fail? If so, what implications could this have on the Sequel Trilogy and the character arcs of Rey, Kylo and Luke in particular?

Would Disney/Lucasfilm actually move away from the Jedi or would this be too risky for them?

Relating to this, I came across this very interesting video on YouTube:



What are your thoughts?

I hope so! The Jedi Order needs some changes, the prequels are there to show how flawed they are

Order? No. Jedi? Yes.

If we go by TFA, Snoke warns that if Skywalker returns then the New Jedi will rise. I'm sceptical that Star Wars would ever do away with the Jedi altogether, it is such a cornerstone of what George Lucas created. I know there's nothing stopping them getting rid of the Jedi and then resurrecting them in the future, or even telling stories set in past eras with the Jedi. But I still feel the ST will end with the foundation of some new kind of Jedi Order.

The Grey Jedi thing is a non-starter, IMO, and it won't become canon. I'm not sure where Rian Johnson is going to take it, and I am hoping for a deep look into the nature of the force and light and dark etc. The yin and yang aspect is the most interesting to me, but it's not defined in terms of good and evil. It is the light and dark side of a mountain, it's still water and a fast flowing stream, it's the roots and leaves of a tree. The force just is like all things in nature and it can be beautiful or destructive but it doesn't discriminate between the two. I'm not sure how this would ever translate into a type of force user, though, because orders by their natures have rules and it's the intentions of the force user that makes it for good or evil.

I personally doubt, as much as I want it, that these movies will go too deep into it all. I expect them to keep it more simplistic due to the time constraints of having only two more movies with other plotlines to tell, plus not wanting to bamboozle the audience with too many philosophical ideas. For that reason, I'm expecting the New Jedi in some form, although I wouldn't mind if they did end.

spacebaby45678 wrote:Order? No. Jedi? Yes.

@spacebaby45678

This. Pablo said that PT Jedi were more Order and less Jedi meaning that was a big problem.

I think the jedi order will end but a new spiritual group (whether called jedi or not) might continue as approachable spiritual guides and warriors....the jedi order (before the rise of the Empire) lost touch with the common people in the galaxy when they hid in their gigantic temples, which made people distrust them and allowed the sith to destroy them....the new group might wander the galaxy, teaching and helping people...going where the force calls them (like Qui Gon) instead of being enforcers of the republic (Mace Windu is an example of this line of thinking). I'm not going into the question of attachments since we all have different views regarding what it might entail but I feel that the traditional jedi order has to end, and this is what Luke meant in the trailer.

First things first, out with the "no attachments" rule. Audiences can only take so many non romantic protagonists. Anakin fell in love and then ruined everything, Luke couldn't fall in love in order to be the ultimate Jedi. The story's got to go somewhere else now. Jedi will still be around, they just won't be so rigid and old school is my guess. 

When I saw the OT as a kid, figured that the backstory was that what happened was something like Camelot. But then GL tried to make the PT into a political allegory, though I couldn't tell you (along with most of the plot points) what exactly he was driving home other than fear and wanting control/power can corrupt good people. But it sounds like how the PT portrayed them was almost like the Holy Roman Empire. Or other analogies brought up here, the Catholic Church where Luke is Martin Luther. Or for those of us who are Protestant, the split between Mainline/follow a central organizing principle & authority versus Charismatic/Evangelical.

snufkin wrote:When I saw the OT as a kid, figured that the backstory was that what happened was something like Camelot. But then GL tried to make the PT into a political allegory, though I couldn't tell you (along with most of the plot points) what exactly he was driving home other than fear and wanting control/power can corrupt good people. But it sounds like how the PT portrayed them was almost like the Holy Roman Empire. Or other analogies brought up here, the Catholic Church where Luke is Martin Luther. Or for those of us who are Protestant, the split between Mainline/follow a central organizing principle & authority versus Charismatic/Evangelical.  

@snufkin

The Jedi Knights are more modeled after the Knights Templar of the dark ages... and all of the rumors of them doing archaeological digs in Jerusalem etc recovering some ancient fantastical secret, maybe the Ark or something greater. Whatever the Knights where rumored and reported to discover caused them to lose faith in "Jesus" and become Deists.The belief that God has created the universe but remains apart from it and permits his creation to administer itself through natural laws. The same way Luke has discovered something that has caused him to lose faith in some form or fashion)  The Templar Knights got involved in the crusades in a similar fashion  the Jedi get involved in The Clone Wars ..Order 66 is in actuality Friday the 13th, and this is the cause of why Friday the 13 is considered bad luck. There is even a hidden templar cross in ESB



h the origin of the Friday the 13th superstition)[32][33] King Philip IV ordered de Molay and scores of other French Templars to be simultaneously arrested. The arrest warrant started with the phrase: "Dieu n'est pas content, nous avons des ennemis de la foi dans le Royaume" ["God is not pleased. We have enemies of the faith in the kingdom"].[34] Claims were made that during Templar admissions ceremonies, recruits were forced to spit on the Cross, deny Christ, and engage in indecent kissing; brethren were also accused of worshipping idols, and the order was said to have encouraged homosexual practices.[35] The Templars were charged with numerous other offences such as financial corruption, fraud, and secrecy.[36] Many of the accused confessed to these charges under torture, and these confessions, even though obtained under duress, caused a scandal in Paris. The prisoners were coerced to confess that they had spat on the Cross: "Moi, Raymond de La Fère, 21 ans, reconnais que [j'ai] craché trois fois sur la Croix, mais de bouche et pas de cœur" (free translation: "I, Raymond de La Fère, 21 years old, admit that I have spat three times on the Cross, but only from my mouth and not from my heart"). The Templars were accused of idolatry and were suspected of worshipping either a figure known as Baphomet or a mummified severed head they recovered, amongst other artefacts, at their original headquarters on the Temple Mount that many scholars theorise might have been that of John the Baptist, among other things.[37]
[/i]

The Templars get destroyed and the mythology goes underground "the underground stream"  etc. to become The Scottish Rite Freemasonry and other organisations, The Knights of Malta etc. a separate stream becomes esoteric Rosicrucian.

@spacebaby45678

i think the KOR are much closer modelled on the templars actually. but you are right, i hadn't looked at the jedi in that way, that is pretty interesting.

i think the common theme in these stories is that people with extensive and extraordinary powers have to declare allegiance and submit to another political power. that is the reason the templars ultimately fell i feel. the avengers are doing a similar thing, i guess justice league as well?

i don't know what the alternative is to that. i don't know if such stories exist, which is why it is difficult to imagine a story without a jedi order or any force-type order.

i feel like in a way ANH answers a scenario of the order being destroyed from without in that the remaning jedi keep the faith alive, if you will. from the trailer it sounds like luke wants the order gone, which is a bit different. but really does that mean force users should not abide by some code of honour or ethics or anything?

the reason the templars started existing was because of all the rogue knights fuffing about and robbing and murdering people. i wouldn't want rogue combat trained people run around without ethics. they don't necessarily pose a danger but they will always be perceived as dangerous.

@lucina

great video. i'm miffed that in german 'order' has to meanings and they chose to translate the FO to mean hierarchy. i had to explain that to all the people who don't care around me that it really has much more religious connotations.

@guardienne

I have to admit that before watching this video, I never noticed the naming parallels between the Jedi Order and the First Oder. Probably because I had the German translation in mind.


I agree that it’s difficult to imagine a galaxy wihtout the Jedi, when there will always be selfish people around who, if strong with the force, will try to use it to gain more power (=the dark side). So I guess some form of light side force users are needed in order to stop this from happening.

But where does the balance come into play here? Because that pretty much sounds like the endless fight between light and dark that has been going on for thousands of years already.

Relating to this I’ve actually come across some interesting speculation on reddit, that I will try to summarize here:

So the force is an energy field that is created by all living things. However some beings have more access to it than others (= force sensitive people) and can manipulate the force. What if this unequal distribution of force powers is the actual imbalance? In this case bringing balance to the force would mean, that the force is evenly balanced among all living beings, so that no one could gain more control over it and throw the galaxy into chaos. This would subsequently result in the end of the Jedi as well, since there would be no need for them anymore.

I actually really like this theory because, in my opinion, it would provide a satisfying conclusion to the propehcy of the Chosen One that was introduced in the PT.

However I’m unsure if Disney will actually go in this direction, since it would mean no more Jedi after the ST and probably the ultimate end of the Skywalker Saga.

@lucina

i don't think that the dark side in itself is more powerful, i think it is different. people who are not me, who understand witchcraft and satanism better, think that it merely symbolises the left hand path. read a little about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-hand_path_and_right-hand_path

in esoteric circles, both paths have existed for a long time and they are both legit for what they do. not that they aren't morally charged, mind you.

anyway, i don't really know what that means for balance.

my first reference for how you can portray balance is actually princess mononoke. the forest god cannot be killed, but the price that mankind pays is that the divine is subsumed, if that is the right word, and becomes disembodied. so everyone can participate in it but it no longer can do things personally. and for the god to i think all of this leads to a lot of theological debate, which i'm not sure i'm equipped to handle.

LOTR also does some 'balance'. so, there is precedence actually, what there isn't, is a lot of aftermath. i'm really also interested in the aftermath because i think that achieving balance is a cataclysmic event and i think we haven't got a lot of stories about aftermaths, full stop.

soo, the jedi order, as it is, can be dissolved but i'd assume it would be like it is now amongst churches (i think someone already mentioned that) that you have all these to interprete doctrine and scripture. i guess it depends on how much you think being force-sensitive is a literal thing (it is to these people) and how much the power balance in itself needs addressing.

another thing to think about is that you need to study the force to be good at it, whichever way you go down. so, force sensitivity in itself isn't enough.

anyway, the german translators majorly dropped the ball. i think the reason that happened is that at the moment we cannot *see* religious stuff going on. so it probably never occurred to them.

guardienne wrote:@lucina

i don't think that the dark side in itself is more powerful, i think it is different. people who are not me, who understand witchcraft and satanism better, think that it merely symbolises the left hand path. read a little about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-hand_path_and_right-hand_path

in esoteric circles, both paths have existed for a long time and they are both legit for what they do. not that they aren't morally charged, mind you.

anyway, i don't really know what that means for balance.

my first reference for how you can portray balance is actually princess mononoke. the forest god cannot be killed, but the price that mankind pays is that the divine is subsumed, if that is the right word, and becomes disembodied. so everyone can participate in it but it no longer can do things personally. and for the god to i think all of this leads to a lot of theological debate, which i'm not sure i'm equipped to handle.

LOTR also does some 'balance'. so, there is precedence actually, what there isn't, is a lot of aftermath. i'm really also interested in the aftermath because i think that achieving balance is a cataclysmic event and i think we haven't got a lot of stories about aftermaths, full stop.

soo, the jedi order, as it is, can be dissolved but i'd assume it would be like it is now amongst churches (i think someone already mentioned that) that you have all these to interprete doctrine and scripture. i guess it depends on how much you think being force-sensitive is a literal thing (it is to these people) and how much the power balance in itself needs addressing.

another thing to think about is that you need to study the force to be good at it, whichever way you go down. so, force sensitivity in itself isn't enough.

anyway, the german translators majorly dropped the ball. i think the reason that happened is that at the moment we cannot *see* religious stuff going on. so it probably never occurred to them.  

@guardienne

Oh, I didn’t mean that darksiders are more powerful per se, only that they will use their force abilities to gain more power to fulfill their selfish desires (rule the galaxy) vs. lightsiders who use the force to selflessly help others.

And I agree that being force sensitive in itself isn’t enough and you have to actively practice in order to do anything with it. Still the fact that some individuals naturally have more access to the force than others means that they pose more of a threat since, depending on which side they are on, they have the power to cause havoc in the galaxy. I think the only way this threat can be removed permanently, is to take this power away from people.  This is the only way I can see the Jedi ending really.

I wonder if it is possible for force users to steal other people’s force powers and accumulate it for themselves to become more powerful? I’m not that familiar with the EU but I think I’ve read about a comic book a while back that features „force vampires“. Maybe that’s what Snoke is: An ancient being that tries to absorb all of the force to gain immortality and become some sort of god. Could also explain why he keeps Kylo around: He sees him as a powerful force vessel, who’s powers he eventually can steal („Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he’ll crush you.“).

Interesting that you bring up Princess Mononoke. It’s been a while since I watched this film but what I remember about the ending was that the Forest Spirit, who in many ways symolises life and nature, is transformed into a god of death and destruction, that kills everything in it’s path.

Maybe something similar is happening with the force in Star Wars: That this life energy is transformed by Snoke into a power of death an destruction and only by returning it to its natural state (with all living beings) the galaxy can be saved.

@lucina

the forest spirit is always both building and destroying. the first time we meet him, plants grow and wither where he walks. this is also an attribute to lord krshna, i think. destroyer and builder of worlds.

it's probably not krshna, tho. ... i think destruction and construction is often embodied by different deities... kali is the destroyer of worlds. here she is projected onto the empire state building (for reasons unknown, i'm sorry i'm very random)



i think krshna is the benevolent deity in that pairing. anyway, what i'm trying to say is that in many esoteric shallwesay, traditions, both of these go together. and you can find that when you examine the cycle of life and death, that existence contains both, birth and death. i hope i'm not patronising you, it's just where i'm coming from with this stuff.

you could also say that the way the dark side has been framed so far in any of the movies, is from people who are afraid of it. the jedi being nominally in charge of the force, would be afraid of anyone challenging their dominance and i think there is a strong case of them spreading falsehood about the dark side, because they don't understand it and/or want to discredit dark siders.

this is how i dismiss what we know about the dark side. i think framing it morally doesn't help because the force is not in itself moral. the movies frame it as moral but that is only the characters' opinion. (i hope this makes some sense)

see, star wars to me is a reflection on our culture. there is world-building involved, but in the end we can only imagine a version of the familiar.

what i'm trying to say is that, possibly, both destruction and construction is needed and that these things can only be usefully brought together in rey and kylo. i don't know how that is supposed to happen and i can't quite imagine and my reference in princess mononoke is pretty flimsy in that regard actually.

taking power away from anyone by, er, force, only really helps cast them as the oppressed.  this is what we get at the end of the prequels. i got the impression that luke has been wanting to give his power away now. and that is different. i don't think that the story will feature a loss of power for anyone, i think true power lies in being yourself fully (i'm really mixing things here pretty wildly and i do apologise) because being one with your true nature allows yourself to be free??!! and that kind of understanding canot be taken away. it's not a possession. i don't think the force is a possession, people with force sensitivity are merely much better at interpreting it and allowing it to flow through them etc. i think i posted some taoist stuff a while back. sorry i'm so confusing.  

i think the movies will feature rebirth (i am so geared up for rebirth, you would not believe it) and some kind of spectacular destruction and rebuilding. and then ...

If not grey Jedi, then grey robes.     Grey is my favorite neutral.

here's some cool stuff about the taoist (??) creation myth. the section starts at 8:05 it explains how yin/yang came into the world.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:First things first, out with the "no attachments" rule. Audiences can only take so many non romantic protagonists. Anakin fell in love and then ruined everything, Luke couldn't fall in love in order to be the ultimate Jedi. The story's got to go somewhere else now. Jedi will still be around, they just won't be so rigid and old school is my guess. 

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes.
The Jedi remind me of organised religions which have to adapt or end.

Off topic but on seeing this:
http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/817832/Star-Wars-8-The-Last-Jedi-reshoots-Rogue-One
my first thought was; "Rian's going to put a Reylo love scene in it to stop the furore released by VF!"

motherofpearl1 wrote:Off topic but on seeing this:
http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/817832/Star-Wars-8-The-Last-Jedi-reshoots-Rogue-One
my first thought was; "Rian's going to put a Reylo love scene in it to stop the furore released by VF!"

@motherofpearl1

Five words: "Star Wars expert Mike Zeroh".

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Off topic but on seeing this:
http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/817832/Star-Wars-8-The-Last-Jedi-reshoots-Rogue-One
my first thought was; "Rian's going to put a Reylo love scene in it to stop the furore released by VF!"

@motherofpearl1

Five words: "Star Wars expert Mike Zeroh".

@ISeeAnIsland

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Off topic but on seeing this:
http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/817832/Star-Wars-8-The-Last-Jedi-reshoots-Rogue-One
my first thought was; "Rian's going to put a Reylo love scene in it to stop the furore released by VF!"

@motherofpearl1

Five words: "Star Wars expert Mike Zeroh".

@ISeeAnIsland

I'll never forget him saying the look on Kylo's face when Rey caught the lightsabre was fear.........

I've just said a few words to a dweeb on youtube who said: men like Star Wars, women like Star Trek...