Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

I'll say this much. if they make sequels to ST, like X-XII, I'm not watching w/o Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. Having only good guys (aka marketing trio) going on adventures that already earned skip button push from me (I fast-forward though sitcom crap if you know what I mean) is not the story I want to see. Ever.

@SoloSideCousin

I know they won't kill him in episode VIII, of that I'm sure, but I have seen too many movies where a character has done something "unforgivable" and I can't remember even one where they stand a chance to survive the ending. There's an incredibly selfless act at the end, where the character dies to save others, and then he/she dies, everyone cries, or not, because with Snape we had that incredibly unticlimantic and boring epilogue but never read or saw the repercussions of that heart-wrenching sacrifice that lasted half of his life. I mean, did anybody cry for him, for judging him wrongly all the time and treating him like an outcast, or rather a "leper" while he buried himself in his youth and worked for the greater good in the shadows?

In the movie there wasn't even time to cry, for God's Sake. With The Prince's tale chapter in the book I must confess I cried a river, and I don't often do when reading. Well, I have seen and read too many stories about redeemed sinners and they always kill them off, because they don't dare defy conventions that have lasted too long. This is what happened with Vader, they thought of exile but in the end, what did they do? What they always do, killing him. No risks there. And then we got those ridiculous Force ghosts because people where OK with forgiving Vader as long as he payed with his life.

I won't say I don't get it because I do. Vader was a genocide and a mass murderer and although he repented, how can that be forgiven?

Also, when you say he was worse than Kylo, that's not exactly the case for the GA because he killed his father, which resonates much more for most viewers. Stories are not about the actions themselves but about personalizing, so you may kill bunches of nameless innocents and the GA may forgive you (Many were willing to forgive Loki) but if you kill someone whith a name,an identity, someone people can identify with, that's unforgivable. And apart from killing a son/daughter, the worst thing imaginable is killing a parent. So forget about Alderaan with millions of nameless faces, the ultimante crime for the GA is killing one's father, and if this parent is Han Solo, much worse.

But the character is so tragic and so painful to watch dragging his feet in gloom and living death in the Darkness that thinking of an early death for him after sacrificing himself for the greater good or for someone he loves feels too much for me. I won't say it can't work on screen, people will cry and cry and then forgive him, because then it will feel morally safe to do so,but it will feel so bleak and depressing I won't like it one bit.

Unless they come up with a real ace up their sleeves, glorious self-sacrificing death and then forgiveness is the only thing he can hope for. This is what I thought when I saw the movie, later I thought he was the "prince" under a spell in a tale, and considering it like that, we could be more optimistic.

As for Reylo, that goes without saying, even if they put him down like a rabid dog Reylo will come to be, because nothing else makes sense. Rey's character would become dull without Kylo. Being perfectly pure and perfect, a model for litte girls but with no human flaws or convincing depth would be a disservice for Rey and for Daisy as an actress. Risk and courage, showing humanity and vulnerability,aslo flaws like anyone else, that would make her interesting. For that, the only option is loving Kylo against her own judgement,the whole world and the Force itself if necessary (although the Force approves, of that I am sure). That would be epic and I think it will happen. But if it does happen, the GA may still feel uncomfortable with letting Kylo get away with Killing Han. Many will want blood. Then, they will cry for him but for many his blood will be the price of forgiveness.

i think it's a particularly american thing, having to kill off the evil person etc... i think European cinema is much more interesting in that regard but we don't rely on archetype so much for our stories.

for various reasons killing him off even after a sacrificial act, would be horrendous. like you, i don't think he's ever lived, truly lived. and i think allowing that character to live wouldn't just be an act of generosity, it would be a narrative that is truly truly rare.

Can we redirect talk of which bad guy to kill off how to the VIII and IX speculation threads, perhaps?

Cause I think there's a big question to consider here: Chastity belt, yes or no? And who has the key?

AnneNeville wrote:Can we redirect talk of which bad guy to kill off how to the VIII and IX speculation threads, perhaps?

Cause I think there's a big question to consider here: Chastity belt, yes or no? And who has the key?

whoa now, isn't this meant to be a family friendly thread? the tracker hidden in his belt did make me think of those when i first read the novelization though…poor Kylo, he just needs to fly free and finally get the chance to use his lightsaber on a beautiful lady.

AnneNeville wrote:Can we redirect talk of which bad guy to kill off how to the VIII and IX speculation threads, perhaps?

Cause I think there's a big question to consider here: Chastity belt, yes or no? And who has the key?

GPS belt = chastity belt. Also see Limo as opposed to letting Kylo fly around on his own. Snoke knows that Kylo would fly away.

BastilaBey wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:Can we redirect talk of which bad guy to kill off how to the VIII and IX speculation threads, perhaps?

Cause I think there's a big question to consider here: Chastity belt, yes or no? And who has the key?

whoa now, isn't this meant to be a family friendly thread? the tracker hidden in his belt did make me think of those when i first read the novelization though…poor Kylo, he just needs to fly free and finally get the chance to use his lightsaber on a beautiful lady.

Yes, we have to stay family friendly. But that was what I call a . . . gentle redirect to the primary topic?

I have to honestly say that I am not fond of sex discussions in relation to Star Wars. I guess I'd like to enjoy Star Wars without seeing lightsabers as metaphors for you-know-what and wondering if Kylo actually did the whole female crew - I don't mean that everyone should stop making jokes, I have to select what I want to read or not. I think that some sexual subtext is definitively there and that we can see some metaphor for sexual awakening, but whether that was JJ & Co's intent is debatable imo. It's still Star Wars.

As for the swag in the interrogation scene... You know, what I saw? I honestly did not want to bring it up at first because it goes so much in the opposite direction, it's kind of scary. I saw my 5 year old nephew after I once did his hair in a boys band style look at himself in the mirror with pride and then parading like a peacock. I think that wanting to look good and appreciating the fact that you get some notice for it is a human characteristic that is not automatically linked with being sexually active or nor. Boys and girls in school yards also like to look good while hopefully still being innocent - obviously, it has to do with preparing yourself for the game of attraction in adulthood too. I see Kylo as being a 5 year old in a lot of aspects.

Being 30 in a sexualized environment and being 30 in a non-sexualized environment is a different story imo. I don't see Star Wars as a sexualized environment except maybe Jabba's place. Planet Earth definitively is.

What does physical beauty or charisma have to do with the probability of being a virgin or not? Or even landing more. I think that if we were to pull out statistics, we would be surprised by the results.

I guess I don't have to say what my vote was in the poll

@SanghaRen Rey and Ren LightSaber Sex Fight is sexualized enough. I made an experiment and asked my parents to listen to sounds on my computer. I played the fight after Rey powers up, you know, the ohhh, ahhhh, grunting, screaming, moaning part. They asked me what I was watching. I said SW. They said that didn't sound like SW but like an adult movie. Bingo.

AnneNeville wrote:Can we redirect talk of which bad guy to kill off how to the VIII and IX speculation threads, perhaps?

Cause I think there's a big question to consider here: Chastity belt, yes or no? And who has the key?

Don't tell me I've run off-topic, please. That gives me the chills, you know why.
I just start talking and get carried away. For me everything is connected, that's the way my mind works, stream of consciousness style. But I liked the topic and wanted to take part anyway.

I'll do my best not to digress too much, though. Sometimes this leads us too far away from the original topic, mea culpa.

@SanghaRen

As for the swag in the interrogation scene... You know, what I saw? I honestly did not want to bring it up at first because it goes so much in the opposite direction, it's kind of scary. I saw my 5 year old nephew after I once did his hair in a boys band style look at himself in the mirror with pride and then parading like a peacock. I think that wanting to look good and appreciating the fact that you get some notice for it is a human characteristic that is not automatically linked with being sexually active or nor. Boys and girls in school yards also like to look good while hopefully still being innocent - obviously, it has to do with preparing yourself for the game of attraction in adulthood too. I see Kylo as being a 5 year old in a lot of aspects.

I love the comparison you have used and I agree. He seems innocent, like a kid or like a beautiful young monk who knows he is pretty but this doesn't mean he is experienced.

@vaderito

I know I didn't pay attention to it when I saw the movie in the theater, but when I watched a bootleg on youtube, I also realized that. Probably because the quality of the image was bad so I focused more on sounds. Reminds me of some tennis players. When you don't watch the screen, if it wasn't for the sound of the ball hitting the ground or the racket, you would also wonder what the person in the other room is actually watching.

I am going to say he is not a virgin and dabbled a bit. I think Prince Ben of the Fabulous Hair probably attracted a fair amount of attention from the ladies. I do think he has been celibate for awhile, though.

I think Kylo is 100% virgin. I don't think he has had any experience with woman at all. I'm sure he has been molded to cover himself, hide himself from a young age

ReyofLightSide wrote:I am going to say he is not a virgin and dabbled a bit. I think Prince Ben of the Fabulous Hair probably attracted a fair amount of attention from the ladies. I do think he has been celibate for awhile, though.

This is pretty much my view as well. I won't go as far as saying I'm deadset on it, but that's just personally the way I see it. The idea of virgin!Kylo has so many merits though, and I appreciate the deep, thougtful analysis. I just feel like SW is a story that can be interpreted on many levels depending on your age bracket, and it's nuanced enough to present a world far richer than what exists at surface level (at least metaphorically). For me, I think Kylo could have had sexual experiencies that only led him to feeling more emotionally isolated. I'm not a fan of "casual sex" Kylo because I just don't see him as the playboy type. The term casual sex brings forth the idea of chatting girls up, seducing, putting on a front. I don't see that happening. I also don't see him having sex with FO underlings, for som reason. I don't think he likes to mix with them. He's going to always play the aloof, distant firgure of authority. Earning the Order's fear and respect is first and foremost for him.

I see someone who is unable to forge emotional intimacy, but wouldn't have been averse to dabbling here and there, especially during his younger, more confused, formative years. You don't have to be completely naked to have some form of sex and honestly, it's such a key part to the way a person develops that whatever he's done in the past, it's probably left him feeling more disgusted with himself. It's added to feeling so alone. In other words, I think he's had some form of sex in the past, and it's all been deeply unsatisfying. But once again, I do understand where the virginal Kylo theories are coming from.

@Reynak I don't want to give you chills and was not posting as a moderator. Just thought the villain discussion would be interesting to people who would never see it in a virgin!Kylo thread.

AnneNeville wrote:@Reynak I don't want to give you chills and was not posting as a moderator. Just thought the villain discussion would be interesting to people who would never see it in a virgin!Kylo thread.

Oh, don't worry, it has nothing to do with you, it was just going off-topic reminded me of you know what.

And it's also true that my way of thinking is chaotic, it connects lots of things. I start with something, but one things leads to another and sometimes I digress too much. It has advantages sometimes because it helps me see connections in places apparenty disconnected, but for keeping on-topic, this doesn't help. Your idea for the post was so tempting, LOL.

I see it connected to his personality and also to what he has become. For me, it is also related to his redemption because it would be, in my view, a consequence of the extent the abuse he suffered affected him. The more damaged he was, the more fair it seems to give him a chance. If what Snoke did was not so terrible, they there's no way the writers can make it palatable for the GA that he should find redemption.

Do you think that should go to the Redemption thread then? I could add it there. I don't really know where it should be, believe me.

And don't worry, maybe I have become emo, like Kylo Ren, LOL.

I think the way you do, @Reynak. The redemption thread would be great! Good for the conversation.

Camaro wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:I am going to say he is not a virgin and dabbled a bit. I think Prince Ben of the Fabulous Hair probably attracted a fair amount of attention from the ladies. I do think he has been celibate for awhile, though.

This is pretty much my view as well. I won't go as far as saying I'm deadset on it, but that's just personally the way I see it. The idea of virgin!Kylo has so many merits though, and I appreciate the deep, thougtful analysis. I just feel like SW is a story that can be interpreted on many levels depending on your age bracket, and it's nuanced enough to present a world far richer than what exists at surface level (at least metaphorically). For me, I think Kylo could have had sexual experiencies that only led him to feeling more emotionally isolated. I'm not a fan of "casual sex" Kylo because I just don't see him as the playboy type. The term casual sex brings forth the idea of chatting girls up, seducing, putting on a front. I don't see that happening. I also don't see him having sex with FO underlings, for som reason. I don't think he likes to mix with them. He's going to always play the aloof, distant firgure of authority. Earning the Order's fear and respect is first and foremost for him.

I see someone who is unable to forge emotional intimacy, but wouldn't have been averse to dabbling here and there, especially during his younger, more confused, formative years. You don't have to be completely naked to have some form of sex and honestly, it's such a key part to the way a person develops that whatever he's done in the past, it's probably left him feeling more disgusted with himself. It's added to feeling so alone. In other words, I think he's had some form of sex in the past, and it's all been deeply unsatisfying. But once again, I do understand where the virginal Kylo theories are coming from.

Great posts, ladies. You almost swayed me. Almost.

vaderito wrote:

Camaro wrote:

Great posts, ladies. You almost swayed me. Almost.

xD

vaderito wrote:

Camaro wrote:

ReyofLightSide wrote:I am going to say he is not a virgin and dabbled a bit. I think Prince Ben of the Fabulous Hair probably attracted a fair amount of attention from the ladies. I do think he has been celibate for awhile, though.

This is pretty much my view as well. I won't go as far as saying I'm deadset on it, but that's just personally the way I see it. The idea of virgin!Kylo has so many merits though, and I appreciate the deep, thougtful analysis. I just feel like SW is a story that can be interpreted on many levels depending on your age bracket, and it's nuanced enough to present a world far richer than what exists at surface level (at least metaphorically). For me, I think Kylo could have had sexual experiencies that only led him to feeling more emotionally isolated. I'm not a fan of "casual sex" Kylo because I just don't see him as the playboy type. The term casual sex brings forth the idea of chatting girls up, seducing, putting on a front. I don't see that happening. I also don't see him having sex with FO underlings, for som reason. I don't think he likes to mix with them. He's going to always play the aloof, distant firgure of authority. Earning the Order's fear and respect is first and foremost for him.

I see someone who is unable to forge emotional intimacy, but wouldn't have been averse to dabbling here and there, especially during his younger, more confused, formative years. You don't have to be completely naked to have some form of sex and honestly, it's such a key part to the way a person develops that whatever he's done in the past, it's probably left him feeling more disgusted with himself. It's added to feeling so alone. In other words, I think he's had some form of sex in the past, and it's all been deeply unsatisfying. But once again, I do understand where the virginal Kylo theories are coming from.

Great posts, ladies. You almost swayed me. Almost.

I wouldn't be totally shocked if he was a virgin, but I agree that he would have been craving some sort of intimacy. Sadly, the movie will never confirm but it is fun to speculate.

My feeling is that he is a virgin, but in fact it doesn't matter much, because what matters is that most of us see him as celibate an repressed, unable to have a healthy relationship with people and sex. So, he is a virgin anyway where it counts if he has never had fulfilling realtionships and has been deprived for long. Everything will feel new for him either way.

Another thing that makes me think he is a virgin is how his emotionas are always about to flood, those tantrums of uncontrolled anger, his eyes on the brink of tears and how he shuddered when Rey entered his mind, although that may have been traumatic for him for other reasons.

As this scene can be read in more layers, I saw his shuddering as paralizing fear to intimacy, including sex. It seems as if she was trying to reach hidden corners in his mind and he was afraid (his hand trembled) but after she spoke about Vader he broke the connection and started shivering, all his body, then he ran away. So much fear.

That fear was so extreme there must be something really terribe we still don't know realted to that mission of his (what his grandfather started).

Reynak wrote:My feeling is that he is a virgin, but in fact it doesn't matter much, because what matters is that most of us see him as celibate an repressed, unable to have a healthy relationship with people and sex. So, he is a virgin anyway where it counts if he has never had fulfilling realtionships and has been deprived for long. Everything will feel now for him either way.

Another thing that makes me think he is a virgin is how his emotionas are always about to flood, those tantrums of uncontrolled anger, his eyes on the brink of tears and how he shuddered when Rey entered his mind, although that may have been a sacary place because we know he fears he isn't as strong as Vader but we don't know why he needs so much strenth. What he has to do but perhaps he isn't strong enough to to it must be terrifying for him.

As this scene can be read in more layers, I saw his shuddering as paralizing fear to intimacy, including sex. It seems as if she was trying and he was a bit afraid (his hand trembles) but after she speaks he breaks the connection and is shivering, all his body, then he runs away. So much fear.

Re: the bolded, exactly. That really is the key. Whether he's a virgin or not per se isn't relevant and I doubt it will ever be addressed anyway. It's open to interpretation and will continue to be, but the core of the issue is that Kylo Ren is an isolated, deeply damaged, emotionally stunted individual that is a walking metaphor for repressed emotion/passion. He's like a barely contained flame. Whether one is more inclined to believe he's not virgin but celibate, or completely virginal, the issue is the same. It's not so much about his body, it's about his soul. He is an emotional virgin and that's what counts.

Camaro wrote:

Reynak wrote:My feeling is that he is a virgin, but in fact it doesn't matter much, because what matters is that most of us see him as celibate an repressed, unable to have a healthy relationship with people and sex. So, he is a virgin anyway where it counts if he has never had fulfilling realtionships and has been deprived for long. Everything will feel now for him either way.

Another thing that makes me think he is a virgin is how his emotionas are always about to flood, those tantrums of uncontrolled anger, his eyes on the brink of tears and how he shuddered when Rey entered his mind, although that may have been a sacary place because we know he fears he isn't as strong as Vader but we don't know why he needs so much strenth. What he has to do but perhaps he isn't strong enough to to it must be terrifying for him.

As this scene can be read in more layers, I saw his shuddering as paralizing fear to intimacy, including sex. It seems as if she was trying and he was a bit afraid (his hand trembles) but after she speaks he breaks the connection and is shivering, all his body, then he runs away. So much fear.

Re: the bolded, exactly. That really is the key. Whether he's a virgin or not per se isn't relevant and I doubt it will ever be addressed anyway. It's open to interpretation and will continue to be, but the core of the issue is that Kylo Ren is an isolated, deeply damaged, emotionally stunted individual that is a walking metaphor for repressed emotion/passion. He's like a barely contained flame. Whether one is more inclined to believe he's not virgin but celibate, or completely virginal, the issue is the same. It's not so much about his body, it's about his soul. He is an emotional virgin and that's what counts.

I agree with you, @Camaro, and with @Reynak, completely. I think for him, virginity is a state of mind. I keep going back to Whoopi Goldberg's character, Celie, in The Color Purple. Technically, in the doctor's exam sense, she's not a virgin when she meets Suge Avery, but because everything that has happened to her body has been the result of abuse and has not included an ounce of emotional or mental intimacy, she is absolutely a virgin until she is with Suge. I think it is the same with Kylo, whether you believe he was abused and/or had some awkward experimentation during his still very unclear timeline (the whole, was he a Naboo pilot first and then he was sent to Luke option), none of it stuck with him as a positive memory of love/intimacy/connection.

In fact, though I like to entertain all kinds of background story possibilities for him (probably more than most of the board), I think had he had a relationship that really touched him that he probably would not have turned to the dark side, because his soul wouldn't be as profoundly lonely as it seems to be. I guess you could argue the possibility of "the lost love that Snoke killed but blamed on the Jedi" option, but as I write this, I do think that possibility is closed off, not only because it would be a repeat of Vader, but I think the shame in front of Hux puts the nail in that coffin.

If Kylo had had a love and then turned to the dark side, he might have needed the mask to hide his identity as Ben Solo from the rest of the FO, but Hux knows who he is. He wouldn't need to hide from Hux. Further, if he had made a successful connection to a woman in the past, even if she had died, he would not have that shame in front of Hux. Even if he had been abused prior, he would have had the kind of confidence that would come from knowing that some woman cared for him or loved him. He does not have that at all. He shows shame in front of Hux, even though I'm sure Hux has never personally humiliated him in any traumatic way. He's ashamed in front of Hux because he is ashamed in front of everyone who he does not feel is "safe", because something negative happened to him and his body.

Yeah, Snoke, his evil abuser, might force him to show his face sometimes, but until Rey, I bet no one has seen his face for years. That severe level of shame can only point to him having extremely negative experiences in the sexual/physical/intimacy realm.

But thinking of it this way, it makes his reaction post-Rey all the more amazing. I mean even though she has entered his mind, and it shocked him and may have reminded him of past traumas, it was not a negative experience overall. You know how you know that? It's because he does not mask himself immediately again in shame. He actually forget about the mask, something I bet he never does, because it's such a core thing for him. Even though she has defeated him in the interrogation room, and he is completely freaking out, he is still in a state of openness when he runs to Snoke. He only puts the mask back on when he is reminded that he should be "ashamed" when Hux walks in.

Moving on from that, I think that because he unmasked for Rey, and because for him it was a more positive experience than negative (IOW he savored the connection with her, of her being with him in his mind, that the defeating part didn't really bother him all that much on a subconscious level), that he was mentally able to unmask in front of Han and the stormtroopers. So what I am saying is that I wonder if he had not had that semi-positive experience with Rey, would he have even been able or willing to unmask in front of Han? Nevermind drop the helmet with a huge clunk and almost go with his father!

If I really want to think about it in this way, just that brief moment of connection and light and not being alone, was enough to carry that openness and lack of shame all the way until the end of the movie ... even after he had committed the worst "sin" of his life. He's craving that connection so much that he just runs like a crazy person, shot in the gut, bleeding, with no mask, in total desperation just to find her and say "We're not done yet." And the fact that he doesn't even care that he is unmasked in front of Finn to the point where he doesn't even notice him until Finn goes to Rey after the tree underscores how absolutely desperate he is to maintain that positive connection with her, because it is good and he needs it, no matter how he looks or who is looking at him. That moment with her started to take the shame away.

Obviously, this is a big stream of consciousness ramble, but like you, @Reynak, my mind works like that as well. And this also reminds me of your prior posts about how she will be a healing force for him. Maybe she is already healing him? :-)

So...

Do we need to have a scene like this in Episode VIII..?

Yea or Nay...?

Yay



Not the virgin thing but the idea above