Discussion: Podcasts

Kylo Rey wrote:That was my first thought when I saw that post. Like are we really regurgitating 2015 discourse? This line of thinking is unfortunately still really prevalent even after TLJ, even though it's been made more reductive now. The fact that TLJ deepened Kylo's character, framed him as sympathetic and RJ even went to the lengths of having Luke Skywalker, one of the most legendary heroes and icons in cinema being somewhat responsible for his fall (which is still yielding backlash, 8 months later) should be ringing the alarm bells. By definition, if Kylo is a 'school shooter', isn't it extremely problematic that he has been portrayed as sympathetic then? Seriously. And as mentioned above, while Kylo has now obtained a political position as Supreme Leader, all his backstory, motivations, needs, wants etc are not politically motivated at all. He's an emotional, irrational and impulsive character who can sometimes be a tantrum throwing brat but they've been careful to have his character separated from politics. The reaction if/when Reylo happens is going to be quite something.

@Kylo Rey

More of a when than an if!

That's also one of the things I found so interesting about Kylo's role in TFA. Even JJ said in his commentary that Kylo was more the spiritual side of the FO, while Hux was the technical, military side of it. They're basically church and state. Plus Kylo's just kind of an emotional trainwreck. If you're looking for a space Nazi, it's Hux. Who made and launched SKB again?

I thought the fact they were foils, and Kylo really did not belong with these people and this organization, was pretty obvious from the get go, but not to everyone it would seem.

Well, it looks like multiple people challenged him in the comments about his school shooter comment and he deleted not only those comments but also his original one.

The question still remains as to how he can profess such a deep understanding of THIS movie (TLJ) and yet refuse to see the fundamental truth in analyzing one of its central characters -- the character who was given a much deeper, psychologically complex arc IN THIS MOVIE. He even SAYS in the comments that he feels that JJ Abrams is less profound than Rian Johnson in his characterizations (citing the main reason he likes TLJ over TFA) and then he turns around and says something like this!

I'm just baffled! And saddened.

californiagirl wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:That was my first thought when I saw that post. Like are we really regurgitating 2015 discourse? This line of thinking is unfortunately still really prevalent even after TLJ, even though it's been made more reductive now. The fact that TLJ deepened Kylo's character, framed him as sympathetic and RJ even went to the lengths of having Luke Skywalker, one of the most legendary heroes and icons in cinema being somewhat responsible for his fall (which is still yielding backlash, 8 months later) should be ringing the alarm bells. By definition, if Kylo is a 'school shooter', isn't it extremely problematic that he has been portrayed as sympathetic then? Seriously. And as mentioned above, while Kylo has now obtained a political position as Supreme Leader, all his backstory, motivations, needs, wants etc are not politically motivated at all. He's an emotional, irrational and impulsive character who can sometimes be a tantrum throwing brat but they've been careful to have his character separated from politics. The reaction if/when Reylo happens is going to be quite something.

@Kylo Rey

More of a when than an if!

That's also one of the things I found so interesting about Kylo's role in TFA. Even JJ said in his commentary that Kylo was more the spiritual side of the FO, while Hux was the technical, military side of it. They're basically church and state. Plus Kylo's just kind of an emotional trainwreck. If you're looking for a space Nazi, it's Hux. Who made and launched SKB again?

I thought the fact they were foils, and Kylo really did not belong with these people and this organization, was pretty obvious from the get go, but not to everyone it would seem.

@californiagirl

I put the if in just to be on the safe side.  

That JJ quote is particularly interesting as he's now back in charge for IX and will no doubt relish directing the fallout between Hux and Kylo. It also lines up really well with Hux's inner thoughts in the novelisation - putting space technology on a pedestal, denigrating Kylo's brand of 'sorcery' etc. It's not an outlandish prediction to expect a large part of IX's plot to pit Kylo and Hux against each other big time. Their positions as foils to each other will be made even more clear. Fully agreed that it's basically a separation of church/state thing. Never made more clear than Hux's role in blowing up the Hosnian System. Honestly, this isn't even a new thing for SW. They've always had clear distinctions between the technical bureaucratic Imperial/FO officers and generals and the dark side space wizards and sorcery in Darth Vader and Kylo Ren. The political and Dark Side aspects have been notably separated within the OT and the ST.

@Dar-ren19 I'm surprised he deleted his comments. So will he not be making that video then?

@Kylo Rey I don't know. I guess we'll see? I think him deleting the comments is interesting in itself.

He's gonna make the video for the clicks. Just watch. I'll be surprised if he doesn't. Anyway, I unsubscribed. Glad I didn't get to watch his video and give him my clicks.

@californiagirl I'm convinced that much of the modern audience is incapable of reading characters unless the movie explicitly spells out their feelings and thoughts.

I've seen so many "Kylo turns totally evil by the end of TLJ" takes, and I'm like, have you all left before the end and missed his last scene where he kneels like a sad penitent and looks at Rey like a kicked puppy? I guess he should have had a monologue like, "woe is me, I've lost my true soulmate".

It's a problem. I'm increasingly of the opinion that characters need thought bubbles lol.

Re: the podcast guy, I bet he also thinks that Han is problematic and predatory towards Leia in ESB.

@Saracene Agreed. It wasn't as much an issue with the OT because the characterizations and story were simpler. and rather on the nose. Which worked for the time they came out, as the return of the simple, wholesome fairytale/western was needed. And the prequels were even less subtle. Heaven forbid the ST try anything a little more nuanced.

It might also be that Kylo's decision to become SL is so extreme, and his Crait meltdown so spectacular, one subtle acting moment at the end might have passed people by. It's pretty telling that the last time we see our big scary bad guy, he's alone and sad and defeated and looking at Rey all pitifully before hanging his head in more sad, defeated loneliness. But yelling and explosions and lightsabers during the third act make a bigger impression.

On Han and Leia, some things go down that would probably not stand public scrutiny today, and I think LF, JJ, Rian and the rest all know that. In both films, Kylo is so much milder around Rey than anyone else it's kind of insane. And increasingly so as the films progress. Rey is given a lot of agency and is the more forthright, or even violent, one. That's why I'm a little skeptical of there being another lightsaber fight in IX. Kylo doesn't seem down to beat Rey up and never has, especially now. And I would hope Rey will have evolved by this point too.

If he did have a "woe is me" speech, we would get even more takes about how bad and abusive and problematic Reylo is, so maybe it's a good thing we didn't get that.

Oh Hux and Kylo without Snoke as a firewall is going to be dee-licious. I’m fully expecting Real Housewives levels of bitchiness between those two before it finally explodes. Probably because Hux finally meets “thuh guuuurrrl” (pinched disdainful Hux face) and realizes how much of his plans got ruined because of his rival’s boner for her.

Kylo Rey wrote:
@Riri

Unfortunately when asked about Reylo in the comments he called Kylo a school shooter and that it's super toxic and he's gong to make a video about it :/

@Kylo Rey

This was a great video, and I have really enjoyed this Youtuber’s video commentaries.  It’s so interesting to see people talking specifically about masculinity in pop culture.  I’ve been especially impressed with his other videos about predatory romance, male fantasies of female robots, and misogyny in sitcoms like the Big Bang Theory.  So, while I usually blow off anti comments, this one surprisingly made me sad.

But, then I thought about how even though the channel has great insights, I have of late become more wary of art criticism that is condemning more than it is critical, which is how I felt after some of his videos. It reminds me of when I read Kate Millet’s Sexual Politics as a teenager. This book is a brillant work of 1970s feminist literary criticism that lambasted the sex and sexism in much of the western canon of literature, such as Henry Miller & T.H. Lawrence. Well, I let the book turn me off so much that I never gave a lot of great books by male authors a chance.

There’s usually more than one way to interpret a text anyways. For example, Pop Culture Detective has a great episode about the trope of a sexy female robot “born yesterday” and how it’s a male fantasy that infantilizes women. But, the Metamashina podcast recently had an episode about how female robots in film can be empowering.

So, I dread a Kylo Ren video from this channel, because I’d probably watch it. Although, I am reading in this forum that he deleted his comment? Very interesting.

I've watched Pop Culture Detective's other videos on sexist tropes in film and appreciated how he's one of the few male voices to openly talk about gender dynamics in media. However, I'm disappointed (although not surprised) that he sees Kylo as a "school shooter" and Reylo as toxic. I'm dreading the future video already, not so much for his critique, but how it will definitely spread among the antis like wildfire.

I think that Kylo is one of those characters where it's easy to project onto him because he's so multi-faceted and ambiguous. Hes capable of great power, but also great vulnerability. He's intimidating, but also pitiful. He's an emotional mess, but a relentless fighter. He's captivating, and that brings out some intense feelings from all sorts of people. I've seen fans of Loki, Snape, and other villainous (or morally ambiguous characters) hate on Kylo, and while fans of villains aren't required to like all villains (obviously), it does seem like Kylo brings out the most passionate of reactions, especially in today's heated political climate.

If anything, this makes me even more impatient for Episode IX because I'm ever so curious how people will react if Kylo redeems himself. I'm cautious but fairly confident that it's going to happen, whether Kylo survives or not. Will people still interpret the point of Kylo's character as a stand-in for modern school shooters?

snufkin wrote:Oh Hux and Kylo without Snoke as a firewall is going to be dee-licious. I’m fully expecting Real Housewives levels of bitchiness between those two before it finally explodes. Probably because Hux finally meets “thuh guuuurrrl” (pinched disdainful Hux face) and realizes how much of his plans got ruined because of his rival’s boner for her.

@snufkin

Maybe Hux and Kylo get a new command centre and we can get an homage to Chaplin's The Great Dictator:

LadyHa wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:
@Riri

Unfortunately when asked about Reylo in the comments he called Kylo a school shooter and that it's super toxic and he's gong to make a video about it :/

@Kylo Rey

This was a great video, and I have really enjoyed this Youtuber’s video commentaries.  It’s so interesting to see people talking specifically about masculinity in pop culture.  I’ve been especially impressed with his other videos about predatory romance, male fantasies of female robots, and misogyny in sitcoms like the Big Bang Theory.  So, while I usually blow off anti comments, this one surprisingly made me sad.

But, then I thought about how even though the channel has great insights, I have of late become more wary of art criticism that is condemning more than it is critical, which is how I felt after some of his videos. It reminds me of when I read Kate Millet’s Sexual Politics as a teenager. This book is a brillant work of 1970s feminist literary criticism that lambasted the sex and sexism in much of the western canon of literature, such as Henry Miller & T.H. Lawrence. Well, I let the book turn me off so much that I never gave a lot of great books by male authors a chance.

There’s usually more than one way to interpret a text anyways. For example, Pop Culture Detective has a great episode about the trope of a sexy female robot “born yesterday” and how it’s a male fantasy that infantilizes women. But, the Metamashina podcast recently had an episode about how female robots in film can be empowering.

So, I dread a Kylo Ren video from this channel, because I’d probably watch it. Although, I am reading in this forum that he deleted his comment? Very interesting.

@LadyHa

Oh yeah, the women have been sexualized for the male gaze, ergo we must eschew anything and everything to do with sex argument in response. It’s very second wave. Versus questioning the system which doesn’t just negate sexual agency and pleasure for women (and female characters), but which removes them from the position to demand/expect what’s afforded to men. Also that whole line of logic, I remember the backlash that happened with Ariel Levy’s Female Chauvinist Pigs (basically arguing about sex for the male gaze peddled as empowerment) but besides Millet there was Brownmiller and Dworkin teaming up with anti porn conservative Christians. You almost see that in some corners of the Internet with the concern trolling over how you’re a bad feminist if you want  little Rey of Sunshine to be anything other than a blank and cheerful female empowerment vehicle, let alone knocking boots with the villain. It’s the same fans (idiots) who complained about Qi’ra and L3’s sex talk in Solo because 2 female characters who get to discuss their love lives and sex is radical after 40 years of a franchise plagued by the Only Girl problem but blah blah the Bechdel test. Also don’t get me started on the dumba**es who complained about Qi’ra being supposedly a cliche without even bothering to learn about Film Noir (these also tend to be the same type of people who assume that pre code and the Golden Age movies are worse for women when in fact they’re better than today)

@Armadeus Speaking of people who do their homework, ha! I really hope so. They didn’t cut that scene of Rose biting Hux for nothing, something like that will happen between him and Rey.

I guess your opinion on Kylo depends a lot on how you see his overall arc? Or whether you think about the arc at all and only base your opinion strictly on what the movies have shown you so far.

For me there was no question since TFA that Kylo's story was going to be about redemption and transformation, which makes me look at his current negative qualities and actions as necessary components for such a story, because how can a major dramatic transformation happen otherwise? Likewise with Reylo, it's a given that Rey and Kylo will only become a true couple after the transformation happens.

Regarding the reaction to Kylo as opposed to Loki and Snape, the latter don't have the same "epitome of horrible white male" attached to them. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that they're not juxtaposed with female/PoC leads like Kylo is with Rey and Finn. Both Thor movies and Harry Potter have white male protagonists. If Harry was a black girl Harriet and Snape still bullied her in the same way he did Harry, I dare say the reaction to him would have been different.

That the FO is overwhelmingly white and male (while the Resistance is carefully portrayed as heavily inclusive of women and PoC) probably doesn't help matters either.

Idk I feel like Snape gets a ton of hate too?I'm not very into HP so I'm not sure but I come across posts hating on him and anyone who likes him, with a lot of notes and retweets.And I kinda remember Loki also getting a lot of hate and his fans being judged similarly to the way it happens with Kylo now.It seems like only recently when he's been redeemed and treated in a more comic way in the last Thor movie that he's suddenly universally loved and relatable on social media.I do think Kylo gets the worst of it compared to similar characters because a lot of people have really decided to project on him every toxic white male trope that exists no matter what actually happens in the movies.

I wonder if it's partly a matter of unfortunate timing with current events. And yes, being paired up with a more diverse cast doesn't help his case. Kylo is also introduced to the audience in the very dark opening sequence on Jakku. Snape and Loki have done and will do bad things, but their intro isn't nearly so shocking, though I think it's very intentionally done in TFA.

But also, Kylo is younger than either Snape or Loki, and has less self-control than either one, which does give off an (intentionally) immature and unstable vibe. And SW has always used very Nazi-esque imagery, even more than HP.

Oh, and Loki is beloved because he's one of the only compelling Marvel villains. He's the trickster god, so he's meant to keep people guessing.

Mila95 wrote:Idk I feel like Snape gets a ton of hate too?I'm not very into HP so I'm not sure but I come across posts hating on him and anyone who likes him, with a lot of notes and retweets.And I kinda remember Loki also getting a lot of hate and his fans being judged similarly to the way it happens with Kylo now.It seems like only recently when he's been redeemed and treated in a more comic way in the last Thor movie that he's suddenly universally loved and relatable on social media.I do think Kylo gets the worst of it compared to similar characters because a lot of people have really decided to project on him every toxic white male trope that exists no matter what actually happens in the movies.

@Mila95

I remember that people on the internet did make fun of Kylo back in the time of post-TFA and pre-TLJ because he wasn't a perfect copy of Vader as a villain. But the mockery is obviously tame after TLJ for various reasons that people on this forum already pointed out.

Besides, as you can see in the picture below (this picture was taken in the time between TFA and TLJ), even though half of the internet didn't like Kylo at the time, his toys didn't share the same fate with Finn the character who was supposed to be universally loved at the time, so it's safe to say, outside the internet, GA and children don't hate Kylo with a passion like what Antis have always deluded themselves.



Talking of Loki and Snape, as far as I remember, HP and Marvel always portrayed those 2 characters as one-dimensional villains in their movies. Actually, they were more like supporting characters than actual villains. Of course, Loki and Snape didn't come from a famous bloodline which has ruled over SW galaxy for 40 years, and most importantly, Loki never threatened to steal Jane/Sif/Valkyrie from Thor and Lily never traveled across the galaxy to save Snape after she saw his pecks. Personally, I don't usually compare Kylo with Snape/Loki because I don't think Kylo has that much similarity with Snape/Loki except they're all white men with fabulous hair. But I might be wrong about the similarity between those 3 characters tho since I don't really invest in Snape and Loki.

I think that book!Snape is similar to Kylo in terms of emotional immaturity and temper; he appears to be cold and controlled on the surface but his emotions run deep and when he loses it boy does he lose his sith. The Harry Potter movies toned down that aspect a lot.

And maybe Snape gets hate, but he's also been voted the top favourite HP character in the readers' poll from a few years ago. Not bad

Loki and Snape get plenty of hate, but hatred directed towards them isn't as politically-charged as the contention surrounding Kylo. I think we've all seen enough people calling Kylo a fascist, toxic, entitled, privileged white boy, etc. And it definitely did not help by having his two opponents in TFA be a woman and a black man. Although, funnily enough, the people Kylo primarily kills onscreen are old white dudes aka Lor San Tekka, Han, Snoke, and (kind of) Luke. He's also dismissively disrespectful to Hux, another white guy. That's why all the claims of Kylo being a misogynist or racist is frankly hilarious to me at times. He's certainly classist/elitist, but sexist or racist? Nope.

I think some people see an overemotional and impulsive "evil" male character, equate that with toxic masculinity, and therefore jump to the conclusion that Kylo is supposed to be a representation of the young macho-wannabe white dude who shoots up schools. It's very simplistic, but I guess that's how others come to that conclusion.

I know Kylo gets compared quite a bit with Zuko from "Avatar: The Last Airbender)(which I agree with and see the comparisons; ATLA was my favorite show when I was a kid and I liked Zuko), but people get very angry with the insinuation that Kylo can be redeemed like Zuko was. No matter what people say, I do believe that it has a lot to do with current times. If ATLA aired today, I guarantee that nearly all the things that are said about Kylo would be said about Zuko too. "He's an entitled, fascist, whiny bad guy who abused the hero and refused his chance at redemption! Shipping him with Katara is toxic! I hope Aang kills him because forgiveness would send the wrong message to little kids!"

toolonelytosleep wrote:Loki and Snape get plenty of hate, but hatred directed towards them isn't as politically-charged as the contention surrounding Kylo. I think we've all seen enough people calling Kylo a fascist, toxic, entitled, privileged white boy, etc. And it definitely did not help by having his two opponents in TFA be a woman and a black man. Although, funnily enough, the people Kylo primarily kills onscreen are old white dudes aka Lor San Tekka, Han, Snoke, and (kind of) Luke. He's also dismissively disrespectful to Hux, another white guy. That's why all the claims of Kylo being a misogynist or racist is frankly hilarious to me at times. He's certainly classist/elitist, but sexist or racist? Nope.

I think some people see an overemotional and impulsive "evil" male character, equate that with toxic masculinity, and therefore jump to the conclusion that Kylo is supposed to be a representation of the young macho-wannabe white dude who shoots up schools. It's very simplistic, but I guess that's how others come to that conclusion.

I know Kylo gets compared quite a bit with Zuko from "Avatar: The Last Airbender)(which I agree with and see the comparisons; ATLA was my favorite show when I was a kid and I liked Zuko), but people get very angry with the insinuation that Kylo can be redeemed like Zuko was. No matter what people say, I do believe that it has a lot to do with current times. If ATLA aired today, I guarantee that nearly all the things that are said about Kylo would be said about Zuko too. "He's an entitled, fascist, whiny bad guy who abused the hero and refused his chance at redemption! Shipping him with Katara is toxic! I hope Aang kills him because forgiveness would send the wrong message to little kids!"

@toolonelytosleep

This, the bold part, that is the problem, both Kylo and Rose (poor Kelly, I'm sorry for what you've to endure) burnt the opportunity of Finn-Rey as a couple to the ground. (but can we really blame Reylo? Finn/Rey can't even beat Stormpilot in the most famous SW couple chart on ao3, Tumblr, and Twitter, and it's just social media sites of English speaking countries only. )
And not to mention that most antis think Kylo and Reylo aren't ideal messages for political correctness.

Saracene wrote:Re: the podcast guy, I bet he also thinks that Han is problematic and predatory towards Leia in ESB.

@Saracene

definitely! hadn't you seen his video "predatory romance in Harrison Ford movies" ?

I'm a bit torn about his videos. Some of the issues he addresses are real and disturbing (for example the scene from Bladerunner with Rick & Rachel - it's awful imo) or his video about the "Born sexy yesterday trope".

That said: sometimes movies shouldn't be translated so literally into "real world problems". Sometimes they're just made for entertainment and shouldn't be dissected into bits and how problematic they could be.

Yes, movie makers should be more aware of certain tropes and how sexualizing women (or men) constantly isn't always appropriate. On the other hand, people should be able to distinguish between fiction and reality. It's easy to blame movies or media for something that decent people with common sense should know.

For example- some of the books I read do have a lot of violence or problematic relationships, do I think that would be OK in the real world? NO! I enjoy them because it's more entertaining than reading about a happy, cute couple who never argue and never do anything controversial ever. It's what I think is perfect in real life but boring as hell to watch or read about.

Correct me if I'm wrong- but men who are sexualizing and objectifying women, don't behave like that because they saw it in movies and now think that's OK. I think it's much more deeper and complicated.

The problem isn't even so much applying real life to fiction or vice versa, but the sheer literalness that is used. Films and other media do reflect real life, and they do send messages to their audience, whether intentionally or not. In SW's case, as with much children's entertainment, it's certainly intentional. But it's often, you know, metaphorical? Symbolic? These are things even some of the kids watching would be learning about on some basic level in school, but here's all these adult fans who completely lack that concept. There's just no understanding of why creative choices might be made, or that there are, like, tropes and mythological elements at play here. Or that these things even exist to begin with.

There was some ridiculous uproar last week online about how the Greek gods and their mythology are problematic. I mean... yes? But there is no understanding regarding the actual point of stories like this and the purposes they serve. Were we always like this, or is this a newer phenomenon?

californiagirl wrote:The problem isn't even so much applying real life to fiction or vice versa, but the sheer literalness that is used. Films and other media do reflect real life, and they do send messages to their audience, whether intentionally or not. In SW's case, as with much children's entertainment, it's certainly intentional. But it's often, you know, metaphorical? Symbolic? These are things even some of the kids watching would be learning about on some basic level in school, but here's all these adult fans who completely lack that concept. There's just no understanding of why creative choices might be made, or that there are, like, tropes and mythological elements at play here. Or that these things even exist to begin with.

There was some ridiculous uproar last week online about how the Greek gods and their mythology are problematic. I mean... yes? But there is no understanding regarding the actual point of stories like this and the purposes they serve. Were we always like this, or is this a newer phenomenon?

@californiagirl

I don't really know how to word this but I'd say this is newer or at least far more amplified due to social media.

whisperingwillow wrote:

californiagirl wrote:The problem isn't even so much applying real life to fiction or vice versa, but the sheer literalness that is used. Films and other media do reflect real life, and they do send messages to their audience, whether intentionally or not. In SW's case, as with much children's entertainment, it's certainly intentional. But it's often, you know, metaphorical? Symbolic? These are things even some of the kids watching would be learning about on some basic level in school, but here's all these adult fans who completely lack that concept. There's just no understanding of why creative choices might be made, or that there are, like, tropes and mythological elements at play here. Or that these things even exist to begin with.

There was some ridiculous uproar last week online about how the Greek gods and their mythology are problematic. I mean... yes? But there is no understanding regarding the actual point of stories like this and the purposes they serve. Were we always like this, or is this a newer phenomenon?

@californiagirl

I don't really know how to word this but I'd say this is newer or at least far more amplified due to social media.

@whisperingwillow

You might be right. Weirdly, even though the internet can allow for a far greater spread of different ideas, it also has the downside of normalizing kneejerk reactions and a general hivemind.