Re: Discussion: TLJ Movie Spoilers/Rumors

by AcrosstheStars Mon 11 Dec 2017, 2:32 am

And more:
*Kylo and the Knights do go to Ach-to
*Kylo seeing Luke is picked up on by Leia through the Force and it wakes her up
* Supremacy crashes on to Crait during the fight
*Implied that the Jedi did something to Snoke
*Kylo and Rey fight the guards and Snoke himself. Snoke has a black lightsaber. They have to team up to escape him. Rey and Kylo switch sabers here. (This is the other main questionable drop to me; is Snoke really in any condition to be wielding a lightsaber? And why/how does Kylo go to Crait if he’s literally fighting Snoke just before this?)
*Rey goes to the Falcon’s escape pod on Crait after it’s hit; she saves Finn whose speeder (?) got hit as well.

I’m summarizing but that’s the gist. By and large though, this sounds so much more appealing than the other stuff. Therefore it can’t be real, because I like it too much. Laughing

@Ynqve I’ve never seen that or Rebels. I’ve seen a little of Clone Wars, just clips of Anidala. I think I am an unusual fan because the only ending to ROTJ I’ve ever seen is Hayden as the Force ghost of Anakin. I had no idea anyone was upset by that until I first read a major Star Wars site earlier this year. I didn’t know the PT was so hated either. I was over in my prequel loving bubble and boy was I in for a shell shock. Crying or Very sad

by Meomeo Mon 11 Dec 2017, 2:35 am

AcrosstheStars wrote:And more:
*Kylo and the Knights do go to Ach-to
*Kylo seeing Luke is picked up on by Leia through the Force and it wakes her up
* Supremacy crashes on to Crait during the fight
*Implied that the Jedi did something to Snoke
*Kylo and Rey fight the guards and Snoke himself. Snoke has a black lightsaber. They have to team up to escape him. Rey and Kylo switch sabers here. (This is the other main questionable drop to me; is Snoke really in any condition to be wielding a lightsaber? And why/how does Kylo go to Crait if he’s literally fighting Snoke just before this?)
*Rey goes to the Falcon’s escape pod on Crait after it’s hit; she saves Finn whose speeder (?) got hit as well.

I’m summarizing but that’s the gist. By and large though, this sounds so much more appealing than the other stuff. Therefore it can’t be real, because I like it too much.

@Ynqve I’ve never seen that or Rebels. I’ve seen a little of Clone Wars, just clips of Anidala. I think I am an unusual fan because the only ending to ROTJ I’ve ever seen is Hayden as the Force ghost of Anakin. I had no idea anyone was upset by that until I first read a major Star Wars site earlier this year. I didn’t know the PT was so hated either. I was over in my prequel loving bubble and boy was I in for a shell shock.

@AcrosstheStars
I have heard people say Snoke has no lightsaber because he's broken? I am the same with you, this is too good to be true. I just hope Luke does not die.

by reylo1992 Mon 11 Dec 2017, 2:39 am

snufkin wrote:
MeadowofAshes wrote:
MyOnlyHope wrote:
MeadowofAshes wrote:Real talk: Anything with Renperor killing Snoke is BS. Snoke is set up as the creepy old child predator who serves as a false father figure. Kylo realizing his real father was right about Snoke using him for his power and then going Ronan with the intent of Rey helping him take Snoke out is one thing, but we have a whole nother movie left. Snoke's not going anywhere, and Kylo isn't going to turn into a Big Bad - that doesn't jive with redemption foreshadowing. Ambiguity at the end is one thing.

And no offense to any Hux fans out there, but the guy is a groveling little pissant, and purposely so. He's a foil for Ren. He's not Big Bad material either. He's "sibling" competition for Papa Snoke's attention.
@MeadowofAshes
Agreed. It doesn't make any sense. Andy Serkis has spoken three times now about how Snoke fears a great female force. That means something and it's going somewhere. If these leaks were saying Rey kills Snoke, I guess I would be a little more inclined to believe, but even then, it would be pretty lacking in narrative and character sense. Snoke just hasn't been set up as a faceless, disposable baddie.
@MyOnlyHope

I laughed aloud when I read that quote. He should fear her - she's a lot hotter than his shriveled up old corpse. Snoke's screwed and he was the minute Ren saw The Girl in the woods. The only one who doesn't know it yet is Ren.

The Great Feminine Force is exactly what Snoke should fear too. This is a Jungian story for the ages, going back to Arthurian legend and ancient goddess figures, the Sacred Feminine transforming and healing and washing away the sins of the past. Ren, the negative masculine, is destructive fire, and Rey is healing water, the only thing that can calm that rage. And it's not her changing him, it's him accepting the feminine that is already part of himself and making peace with it. Same for her. He stokes the fire that can be a powerful force of change and movement within her.

Snoke is right to fear her. She ruins all his little plans for using Kylo's fragile masculinity and fear of not being as strong as Vader against him and instead transforms Ben into a whole man.

@MeadowofAshes

THANK YOU! Making more goddamn sense than anything you'd see supposedly coming out of Reddit and Tumblr. That's exactly the deeper mythic theme (suck it, Joseph Campbell) in play here.

@Moonjump05 - I know she's mostly a lurker these days, but @BastilaBey is the person who brought up Jane Eyre at the beginning. There could easily be a checklist, like

1. Whatever the mystical Force connection they have is

I have a strange feeling with regard to you. As if I had a string somewhere under my left ribs, tightly knotted to a similar string in you. And if you were to leave I'm afraid that cord of communion would snap. And I have a notion that I'd take to bleeding inwardly. As for you, you'd forget me.

2. Rochester's family tries to find him a position/place in the world which instead turns his life upside down and leaves him cynical, angry, and determined to do the world as he pleases because it owes him

I have a past existence, a series of deeds, a colour of life to contemplate within my own breast, which might well call my sneers and censures from my neighbours to myself. I started, or rather (for like other defaulters, I like to lay half the blame on ill fortune and adverse circumstances) was thrust on to a wrong tack at the age of one-and-twenty, and have never recovered the right course since: but I might have been very different; I might have been as good as you—wiser—almost as stainless.
Nature meant me to be, on the whole, a good man, Miss Eyre; one of the better kind, and you see I am not so. You would say you don’t see it; at least I flatter myself I read as much in your eye (beware, by-the-bye, what you express with that organ; I am quick at interpreting its language). Then take my word for it,—I am not a villain: you are not to suppose that—not to attribute to me any such bad eminence; but, owing, I verily believe, rather to circumstances than to my natural bent, I am a trite commonplace sinner, hackneyed in all the poor petty dissipations with which the rich and worthless try to put on life. Do you wonder that I avow this to you? Know, that in the course of your future life you will often find yourself elected the involuntary confidant of your acquaintances’ secrets: people will instinctively find out, as I have done, that it is not your forte to tell of yourself, but to listen while others talk of themselves; they will feel, too, that you listen with no malevolent scorn of their indiscretion, but with a kind of innate sympathy; not the less comforting and encouraging because it is very unobtrusive in its manifestations.”

“How do you know?—how can you guess all this, sir?”

“I know it well; therefore I proceed almost as freely as if I were writing my thoughts in a diary. You would say, I should have been superior to circumstances; so I should—so I should; but you see I was not. When fate wronged me, I had not the wisdom to remain cool: I turned desperate; then I degenerated. Now, when any vicious simpleton excites my disgust by his paltry ribaldry, I cannot flatter myself that I am better than he: I am forced to confess that he and I are on a level. I wish I had stood firm—God knows I do! Dread remorse when you are tempted to err, Miss Eyre; remorse is the poison of life.”

“Repentance is said to be its cure, sir.”

“It is not its cure. Reformation may be its cure; and I could reform—I have strength yet for that—if—but where is the use of thinking of it, hampered, burdened, cursed as I am? Besides, since happiness is irrevocably denied me, I have a right to get pleasure out of life: and I will get it, cost what it may.”

“Then you will degenerate still more, sir.”

3. First meetings in enchanted forests, when both men literally enter their lives violently and turn things upside down.

4. There's no secret wife stashed away, just Vader's helmet. But there is a secret in that family Rey is going to get to the center of, which has to do with the doomed marriage of Luke and Leia's parents and the toll on them for keeping it a secret from Leia's son and how it came out to destroy both the family and re-visit the sins of the past. It's classic gothic romance role for an intrepid young woman, just like Mary Yellen in Daphne DuMaurier's Jamaica Inn.

5. I had figured if they separate at the end, it's because he wants her to come with him (and @Gemini has had some great observations about how he wants to be with her from the start but believes that he has to be DS for that to happen), it would be like Jane Eyre. When they have the breakdown where Jane knows she can't stay with him. Because it would involve surrendering her self-respect and autonomy. So she leaves him and doesn't return until she's been through enough trials and stood on her own with having her own money, work, and home (Rey's AT-AT and scavenging probably don't count as this already because she's still a servant by the nature of Plutt's control over her).

We'll know 4 days from now - at least that's when I'll know because the website blocker on my phone and MacBook is about to turn on and run until Thursday night after the screening I'm at ends. But both of your posts made a Hell of a lot more sense than all the crap on other sites that are supposedly spoilers.

@snufkin

Exactly! This idea of the fear toward that great feminine force goes soewhere. When one reads the "compassion" dialogue, it is clear that Snoke ain't particularly interested in Rey's power in the sense that he wants to use her and why not replace Ren with her. He is totally focusing on Ren's compassion for the girl because he senses that she is a danger for whatever plan he intends to achieve using Ren. Everything is in the dialogue, he is completely forgetting the map to focus on the topic of his "jealousy" if I may describe it so. Ihad already pointed out some things that strikes me in that dialogue

There was much curiosity in the Supreme Leader's voice as much as there was disappointment

"This scavenger - this girl - resisted you!"

"That's all she is yes.A scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku. Completely untrained but stronger than she knows". His masked off, Ren replied with what seemed to be his usual assurance. No one else would have sensed the difference. Snoke did.

==> At a first sight, one could think that Snoke may be curious about Rey's Force abilities. But it is said that this curiosity is closely related with disappointment. One could think that his disappointment is related to the fact that Ren didn't get the map. However, my feeling is that this is not the case. Snoke completely forgets about the map and instead focuses on the girl but the way one could think. Snoke knows his boy: he knows that nobody is supposed to resist his probe. And it appears that a girl did: this has nothing to do with mplying that her gender makes her weaker. My feeling is that Snoke reads in Kylo Ren and perceive that his student feels inappropriate feelings for her that don't please him. And look at Kylo Ren's defense: I didn't get the map because she is especially strong in the Force. Nice try, buddy! You're trying very hard to fool your master about the real reason of your failure. But it's no use: Snoke senses the difference.

The voice of the Supreme Leader was flat:

"You have compassion for her!"

"No! Never. Compassion? For an ennemy of the order?

"I perceive the problem"Snoke intoned "It isn't her strength that is making you fail, it is your weakness"[/i]

==> That says it all. Snoke is revealing the truth here. Kylo may try to fool saying that the girl is exceptionally strong in the Force, he doesn't bite. He goes straight to the heart of the problem that unsettle him: Kylo's compassion for the girl. He f****ing knows that nobody can resist Kylo's probe. If Kylo really had wanted to get the map from Rey, my feeling is that he would have got. And Snoke knows that and he fears the reason behind Kylo's weakness

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn’t fail me.” The threatening figure of Snoke leaned toward Ren.

==> Snoke could have said that Kylo's allegiance should be to the FO. Instead, he is stressing that Kylo's allegiance is supposed to be to him personally. In other words: you belong to me

“Kylo Ren. It appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me.”

==> The intention is clear: Snoke has no interest in the girl, no matter how strong in the Force Ren describes her. She is endangering his relationship with Kylo Ren and whatever plan he has

by DarthRen Mon 11 Dec 2017, 2:39 am

Meomeo wrote:
AcrosstheStars wrote:And more:
*Kylo and the Knights do go to Ach-to
*Kylo seeing Luke is picked up on by Leia through the Force and it wakes her up
* Supremacy crashes on to Crait during the fight
*Implied that the Jedi did something to Snoke
*Kylo and Rey fight the guards and Snoke himself. Snoke has a black lightsaber. They have to team up to escape him. Rey and Kylo switch sabers here. (This is the other main questionable drop to me; is Snoke really in any condition to be wielding a lightsaber? And why/how does Kylo go to Crait if he’s literally fighting Snoke just before this?)
*Rey goes to the Falcon’s escape pod on Crait after it’s hit; she saves Finn whose speeder (?) got hit as well.

I’m summarizing but that’s the gist. By and large though, this sounds so much more appealing than the other stuff. Therefore it can’t be real, because I like it too much.

@Ynqve I’ve never seen that or Rebels. I’ve seen a little of Clone Wars, just clips of Anidala. I think I am an unusual fan because the only ending to ROTJ I’ve ever seen is Hayden as the Force ghost of Anakin. I had no idea anyone was upset by that until I first read a major Star Wars site earlier this year. I didn’t know the PT was so hated either. I was over in my prequel loving bubble and boy was I in for a shell shock.
@AcrosstheStars
I have heard people say Snoke has no lightsaber because he's broken? I am the same with you, this is too good to be true. I just hope Luke does not die.

@Meomeo

I don't want Snoke to die either. Wanna learn more about him, his goal and purpose of his revenge. Serkis talked about him like he has a role to play in Episode IX.

by AcrosstheStars Mon 11 Dec 2017, 2:41 am

Luke or Snoke dying in VIII would really disappoint me. Both of them dying in VIII just sounds like a mess, especially if you think Leia was supposed to be crucial to Kylo’s fuller redemption in IX, which was always my story-arc thought for him.

ETA: Not to mention I really, really loathe the idea of Projector Luke and death by battery pack drainage. Massively loathe it. It sounds like a random video game, not Star Wars. The more I stew over that, the more annoyed I get, ha.

@Ynqve Thanks for the tip! I will have to look it up when I get some time. See, I wouldn’t have even known there was such a thing as a dark saber. My only thought is the cushy slippers and robe could be a misdirect so we’re extra shocked when we realize he can use a light saber, but I just don’t see how he could physically do it.

Aww, glad you feel that way! I loved Hayden in the role and I was so sad when I realized I was in the minority.

by Ynqve Mon 11 Dec 2017, 2:44 am

AcrosstheStars wrote:And more:
*Kylo and the Knights do go to Ach-to
*Kylo seeing Luke is picked up on by Leia through the Force and it wakes her up
* Supremacy crashes on to Crait during the fight
*Implied that the Jedi did something to Snoke
*Kylo and Rey fight the guards and Snoke himself. Snoke has a black lightsaber. They have to team up to escape him. Rey and Kylo switch sabers here. (This is the other main questionable drop to me; is Snoke really in any condition to be wielding a lightsaber? And why/how does Kylo go to Crait if he’s literally fighting Snoke just before this?)
*Rey goes to the Falcon’s escape pod on Crait after it’s hit; she saves Finn whose speeder (?) got hit as well.

I’m summarizing but that’s the gist. By and large though, this sounds so much more appealing than the other stuff. Therefore it can’t be real, because I like it too much.

@Ynqve I’ve never seen that or Rebels. I’ve seen a little of Clone Wars, just clips of Anidala. I think I am an unusual fan because the only ending to ROTJ I’ve ever seen is Hayden as the Force ghost of Anakin. I had no idea anyone was upset by that until I first read a major Star Wars site earlier this year. I didn’t know the PT was so hated either. I was over in my prequel loving bubble and boy was I in for a shell shock.

@AcrosstheStars

No way Snoke uses a black saber. That would make the Darksaber less unique, unless he actually uses the Darksaber which could be cool but why would he have it? To me this sounds like a FAF written by someone who's seen a lot of Clone Wars/Rebels stuff.

Speaking of, the Darksaber/Maul/Mandalorian plot from Clone Wars and Rebels is great. You should check it out, it involves so much great stuff including the Obi Wan/Satine romance.

I don't hate the PT, I grew up with them (and the theatrical OT releases on bootleg VHS lol). I never had that much of an issue with Hayden as a force ghost, Lucas made far worse decisions in the special editions. Hayden gets way too much crap from PT haters.

by Saracene Mon 11 Dec 2017, 3:25 am

Well I had fun following the premiere reactions, but I think I'd like to disengage at this point and limit myself to the non-spoilery professional critic reviews at most (and if I post my resolution publicly like this there's less chance of breaking it Wink

)

By all sounds, our kids are set for a compelling dynamic in TLJ and I look forward to watching it unfold on Thursday night. See you all in the post-TLJ era!

by vaderito Mon 11 Dec 2017, 4:44 am

Any real spoilers or we are still in FAF Ages?

Snoke with a black saber, don't make me laugh. Black saber has been a fixture of FAF since AOTC if my dad is to be believed. He said there was a spoiler about Palpatine wielding a black saber. lol!

by Piper Maru Mon 11 Dec 2017, 4:52 am

vaderito wrote:Any real spoilers or we are still in FAF Ages?

Snoke with a black saber, don't make me laugh. Black saber has been a fixture of FAF since AOTC if my dad is to be believed. He said there was a spoiler about Palpatine wielding a black saber.

@vaderito

It's fake. All of it.

by motherofpearl1 Mon 11 Dec 2017, 5:33 am

AcrosstheStars wrote:Luke or Snoke dying in VIII would really disappoint me. Both of them dying in VIII just sounds like a mess, especially if you think Leia was supposed to be crucial to Kylo’s fuller redemption in IX, which was always my story-arc thought for him.

ETA: Not to mention I really, really loathe the idea of Projector Luke and death by battery pack drainage. Massively loathe it. It sounds like a random video game, not Star Wars. The more I stew over that, the more annoyed I get, ha.

@Ynqve Thanks for the tip! I will have to look it up when I get some time. See, I wouldn’t have even known there was such a thing as a dark saber. My only thought is the cushy slippers and robe could be a misdirect so we’re extra shocked when we realize he can use a light saber, but I just don’t see how he could physically do it.

Aww, glad you feel that way! I loved Hayden in the role and I was so sad when I realized I was in the minority.

@AcrosstheStars

I liked Hayden as well; the script for AotC was awful and made it look as if he couldn't act. But he was great in RotS.

by vaderito Mon 11 Dec 2017, 5:39 am

Piper Maru wrote:

It's fake. All of it.

@Piper Maru

So Nonesuch it is. I'm not gonna believe until she posts something. And then our international posters on 13.

by **Kessel** Mon 11 Dec 2017, 5:44 am

vaderito wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:

It's fake. All of it.
@Piper Maru

So Nonesuch it is. I'm not gonna believe until she posts something. And then our international posters on 13.

@vaderito

For those waiting to hear real spoilers, I think that's the best strategy to follow. These current leaks just cannot to be trusted.

In a way I'm glad I skimmed them because it's tempered my desire for spoilers be he there's been such a roller coaster of emotions from it. I'm going to take the advice from some of the first reactions we got on social media, and start staying away from any discussions once real spoilers start dropping on the 12th or 13th.

by special_cases Mon 11 Dec 2017, 6:20 am

There are a few non-spoiler reviews on IMDB. One of them is interesting, and seems adequate.

For film fanatics like myself, The Last Jedi is a great film for people to see, regardless if they've witnessed the originals or not.
On the other hand, if you've never seen the original Star Wars films and are just a casual moviegoer that have thought of the promotion for this film as being an action-packed thrill ride, then I'd have to warn to stay far away from this 2 and a half hour motion picture. It's very hard to review this film without getting into specific plot details, but that's exactly what makes this film worth the price of admission alone. For nearly every reason a film fan should be excited about a movie, here is why The Last Jedi is a must see as soon as possible.

Before dropping you into this world with our characters, there is text at the beginning that will fill you in on the history of the events in the past and what has taken place during the past time. But even though that information is given to you, your experience just won't be the same without having viewed the first film and remembering the emotional core of it. Rey's character uncovers mysteries and secrets from the past, inevitably involving Kylo and the First Order while training with Luke. Quite honestly, that's the plot in a nutshell and the specifics of the film will lead to ruining your experience, so let's get technical.

If not for anything else, The Last Jedi benefits from some of the best cinematography I've laid my eyes on in years. From the addition of the seamlessly blended visual effects, to the mind- blowing scenery constructed by the entire art department, I have nothing but praise for this film. Whether or not you find yourself enjoying your experience, the visuals alone should have you applauding, due to their incredibly detailed nature. I personally found the overall film to be magnificent, but when certain scenes were dialogue-free and asking you to gasp at the imagery, that's exactly what I was doing, as I feel many audiences members will.

Again, without giving anything away, once Kylo, Finn and Poe enter the picture, the way both stories sort of interconnect was brilliant in my opinion. It does justice to any loose ends that fans may have wanted in the past, as well as create a new story to gawk at in the process. With a terrifically restrained performance by Adam Driver, you'll find yourself sucked into this world as a fly on the wall, as he uncovers mysteries about Snoke. With the addition of Mark Hamill giving one of his most sincere and memorable performances, as well as Andy Serkis in a role that really took me by surprise, this film was cast to the nines from beginning to end. Some may complain about Oscar Isaac and Gwendoline Christie not being included as much, but I felt as though the served the story quite nicely.

In the end, this movie aims to impress Sci-Fi fans and Star Wars fans across the world, but I feel as though the people who will be looking back on this as a possible classic or at least one of the best sequels ever made, are those who've had the pleasure of indulging in the greatness that is 1980's Empire Strikes Back. I don't say this about films very often, especially when talking about sequels, but I haven't been this immersed in a theatrical experience in quite some time. This is definitely a superior film than the previous, it's one of the better films of 2017, and I'll be revisiting it very soon. The Last Jedi is getting a lot of praise and awards consideration from critics and film goers across the world, and every bit of it is deserved. Aside from being very long, this is pretty much a perfect film if you don't try to nitpick how it connects and certain questions that aren't blatantly answered. If you know what type of film you're in for, or you've at least seen the original and enjoyed it, I can't recommend this movie enough.

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/reviews?ref_=m_tt_urv#showAll

by Guest Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:19 am

Anyone know what this is all about? I don’t play so I’m clueless on this. It could be people who believe the FAF anyway, although there are supposed to be TLJ spoilers in BFII (not the daughter thing though as that’s been debunked).

Discussion: TLJ Movie Spoilers/Rumors - Page 11 78f54010

by Kylo Rey Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:23 am

I feel like this post from SWLeaks sums up my thoughts on these leaks nicely:

If the "leaks" (and I use that in quotations because I don't believe - or, more to the point, don't WANT to believe - they're real) do, in fact, turn out to be true, then the best I'll be able to rate this movie is a 4 out of 10. Even if the music, acting and FX blow me away, it'll still pretty much suck, in my opinion.

For the past two months or so, we've heard so much about how Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is going to have this really interesting development over the course of the movie; it's been re-emphasized how he's going to struggle even more with the balance between light and darkness, and how he could be starting to understand what Han told him about Snoke using him for his power. Rian Johnson even stated at one point (in an Entertainment Weekly article):

“But I don’t think it’s very interesting if the whole story is just ‘Will Kylo get his comeuppance?’ He’s a more complicated character than that and I think he deserves a more complicated story than that. I don’t see the point of trying to get behind his mask and learn more about him if all we’re going to learn is ‘Yeah, he’s just an evil bad guy that needs to be killed.’”

NOPE! f**** THAT NOISE! KILL SNOKE AND THEN RULE THE FIRST ORDER, BITCHES!!!

See what I mean?

And yeah, I've heard the "yeah, but" replies already; how he doesn't REALLY turn "evil" and when he asks Rey to join him, he's not asking her to turn to the Dark Side, blah blah blah, and it's all nonsense. Having Kylo struggle with the light and the darkness, become increasingly unsure that his path is the one he should follow, and possibly even team up with Rey in the latter half when she's in danger ONLY TO THEN TAKE OVER FOR SNOKE...it's a complete waste of the time and energy used to develop his character. There's no arc, there's no progression. It's a complete 180-degree turn.

Sure, it's a "twist", but not in any way a good one. God, M. Night Shyamalan could come up with something better while sitting on the toilet than THAT dumpster fire of an idea.

You have two people with what we're told is a strong bond in the Force, a significant connection that they both explore, and yet at the end of this struggle with Snoke, it boils down to:

Rey: Come with me; we'll bring down the First Order together.

Kylo: No. You come with ME. We'll rule the First Order and the galaxy together.

Rey: Nah, I don't want to do that.

Kylo: Oh. Well, I'm staying here, so...

Rey: Um, okay...I'm gonna take off then.

Kylo: Alright. See ya, I guess.

Rey: Yup. Later!

RIVETING. Truly worth the wait. What amazing chemistry and development. /s

And, then there's Luke Skywalker. Our fallen Jedi, a broken man who escaped his crippling guilt over misjudging Ben Solo's connection to the Dark Side. Rey shows up on Ahch-To, hands him his father's lightsaber, tells him what's what, begs him to train her, and eventually he becomes convinced to do so, until he realizes just how powerful she might be and how similar she is to his nephew. Kylo Ren comes around eventually and somehow spirits Rey off the planet to take her to Snoke. This is when we expect Luke to spring into action, to realize that his destiny does not lie in self-imposed exile on this planet full of porgs, lizard nuns and a big slothy sea creature with green-milk-secreting teats, but helping a budding Force warrior and a fallen man to defeat their mutual enemy and bring the Resistance back from the brink of total annihilation!

NOPE!!! HE STAYS ON THE PLANET, PROJECTS HIMSELF THROUGH THE FORCE TO AIDE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST SNOKE AND DIES FROM USING ALL OF HIS FORCE POWER!

Good freaking lord. What an unholy slap in the face to Luke Skywalker fans. This is his big moment? This is what we waited since the end of TFA for? He can't even be bothered to show up in person and help Rey and his nephew? He just projects himself through the Force, draining his power until he's dead?

I get why Harrison Ford went out the way he did. He wouldn't have done TFA if Han Solo didn't die before the end of it. He wanted out of Star Wars for good, so Abrams obliged him with a tragic, yet beautifully shot and thought-provoking final scene.

The late Carrie Fisher, sadly, can't be a part of Episode IX, so no matter what they do with her in this film, she won't be around for the next one.

That leaves Mark Hamill as Luke, our Last Jedi. And THAT is how he's going to go out? It's not even a noble sacrifice, especially if KYLO REN is the one who kills Snoke!!! At least Han had planted the charges at Starkiller Base so when he died, Chewie could activate them. He accomplished his goal posthumously. What does Luke succeed in doing here? Dying a needless death, it would appear.

And if Luke is dead, Leia's not back for the next film, and Kylo is now ruling the First Order, where does that leave the Skywalker Saga? It essentially ends with The Last Jedi! Kylo's still a Skywalker since he's the son of Leia, but now he's leading the enemy forces! What, are they going to spend the next film trying to turn him from darkness AGAIN? Does he just give up on ever finding good within himself and go full-on evil, rendering his character another ROTS-version of Vader?

That CANNOT be the same movie that people have been raving about. I know I'm a hardcore fan so I'm seeing this through biased eyes, but let's just think about some of the people who tweeted how amazing the movie was. I cannot conceive of them thinking any of that deserves their high praise.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/7ixn0q/comment/dr2dnag

by CienaRee Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:24 am

This is a negative review of the movie from a movie blogger:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is visually sumptuous, thematically rich, but narratively clumsy.

It’s also a movie afraid to follow its most interesting ideas to their logical conclusions.

((The biggest issue is that Kylo Ren is entirely correct, narratively speaking.))
https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/status/940209908938616832/photo/1

I'm very curious what he means by the last part because most reviewers have been praising Kylo's arc so is he unhappy that they went in a certain direction with Kylo that he didn't expect?

by Gemlake Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:35 am

We should see more spoilers today, with many press sceenings scheduled. Of course, there could be more FAF stuff.

In this situation, I will trust a Reylo's description of the movie more than anything. I remember reading a summary of TFA's lightsaber fight from an angry fanboy and it sounded really dumb. The nuances here are important.

From twitter comments, Rey Random and Reylo seem like a lock. The issue is Kylo's status at the end of the film, and whether there is any hope for redemption. I think if the door was completely shut on that, then Episode IX would become very boring. You would be left with another Darth Vader, and the only issue would be how he dies and if he is "redeemed" for a few minutes. That's not what the marketing is telling us.

by Gemlake Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:38 am

CienaRee wrote:This is a negative review of the movie from a movie blogger:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is visually sumptuous, thematically rich, but narratively clumsy.

It’s also a movie afraid to follow its most interesting ideas to their logical conclusions.

((The biggest issue is that Kylo Ren is entirely correct, narratively speaking.))
https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/status/940209908938616832/photo/1

I'm very curious what he means by the last part because most reviewers have been praising Kylo's arc so is he unhappy that they went in a certain direction with Kylo that he didn't expect?

@CienaRee

"((The biggest issue is that Kylo Ren is entirely correct, narratively speaking.))"
I wonder what that means. Let the past die?

by special_cases Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:39 am

CienaRee wrote:This is a negative review of the movie from a movie blogger:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is visually sumptuous, thematically rich, but narratively clumsy.

It’s also a movie afraid to follow its most interesting ideas to their logical conclusions.

((The biggest issue is that Kylo Ren is entirely correct, narratively speaking.))
https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/status/940209908938616832/photo/1

I'm very curious what he means by the last part because most reviewers have been praising Kylo's arc so is he unhappy that they went in a certain direction with Kylo that he didn't expect?

@CienaRee

Well, the first one to say it straightforward. I met a lot of hints of something like this when reading reactions\comments from not "big" accounts.
Right now I think it can be connected with time tricks or another sci-fi elements. Anthony frow EW were the first one who hinted on that (twist that reads like plothole).

From reviews:

Also, if you can't take any sci fi leaps of faith, ignore this review.

Go and see it, and also ignore the mom's basement trolls who will wine constantly about the little problems they had with it.

by Darth_Awakened Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:40 am

Kylo Rey wrote:I feel like this post from SWLeaks sums up my thoughts on these leaks nicely:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/7ixn0q/comment/dr2dnag

@Kylo Rey

Thank you for posting it - I feel the same way.

Something is OFF. Very OFF.

by teltaru Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:40 am

CienaRee wrote:This is a negative review of the movie from a movie blogger:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is visually sumptuous, thematically rich, but narratively clumsy.

It’s also a movie afraid to follow its most interesting ideas to their logical conclusions.

((The biggest issue is that Kylo Ren is entirely correct, narratively speaking.))
https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/status/940209908938616832/photo/1

I'm very curious what he means by the last part because most reviewers have been praising Kylo's arc so is he unhappy that they went in a certain direction with Kylo that he didn't expect?

@CienaRee

Hmm, now this is interesting. The way I'm reading it is that Kylo's reasoning is more sound than whatever the heroes come up with, but the latter is presented as the "good choice" to meet the expectations that the heroes are right, logic aside. But I can imagine many possible interpretations. I'm curious to see how this plays out.

by CienaRee Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:43 am

teltaru wrote:
CienaRee wrote:This is a negative review of the movie from a movie blogger:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is visually sumptuous, thematically rich, but narratively clumsy.

It’s also a movie afraid to follow its most interesting ideas to their logical conclusions.

((The biggest issue is that Kylo Ren is entirely correct, narratively speaking.))
https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/status/940209908938616832/photo/1

I'm very curious what he means by the last part because most reviewers have been praising Kylo's arc so is he unhappy that they went in a certain direction with Kylo that he didn't expect?
@CienaRee

Hmm, now this is interesting. The way I'm reading it is that Kylo's reasoning is more sound than whatever the heroes come up with, but the latter is presented as the "good choice" to meet the expectations that the heroes are right, logic aside. But I can imagine many possible interpretations. I'm curious to see how this plays out.

@teltaru

Yeah,his statement can be taken either way since he's been very vague but then again many other reviewers praised Kylo's character arc so maybe he doesn't approve the direction they went with him.

by Yuugi Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:45 am

I wonder if by being "correct" narratively speaking they mean that whatever motivation Kylo has to join the FO, and wanting to finish what his grandpa started is righteous, so to speak? Something that the audience can actually relate to, so you can no longer call him pure evil? Something for the greater good. This would explain the whole "there's a blurring of the lines between good and evil".

It's the only way I can buy the Renperor leak, but I confess I still have a load of issues with it. It's actually been stressing me out a lot, so I'm just going to trust all the positive reviews and what Rian has been saying about Kylo. I'll be watching the movie on the 13th in the early morning here, so I'm about a day away from it.

by Gemlake Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:45 am

Time travel is interesting. I wonder if that is linked to the machine in Snoke's throne room. Rey is seen almost "guarding" it during the Kylo lightsaber shot.

by DarthRen Mon 11 Dec 2017, 8:48 am

Gemlake wrote:Time travel is interesting. I wonder if that is linked to the machine in Snoke's throne room. Rey is seen almost "guarding" it during the Kylo lightsaber shot.

@Gemlake

Daisy said no time travel and immaculate birth while promoting MOTOE.

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