Re: Discussion: TLJ Movie Spoilers/Rumors

by FrolickingFizzgig Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:27 pm

Piper Maru wrote:I'm sorry, but there's not "a lot" of "She gave up on him in the end."

On the contrary, there are a lot of people shipping them and wanting them to be together in IX.

We were right. We figured out everything before everyone else. Stop obsessing about what other people think.

@Piper Maru
Right? Like we ever gave a s*** about antis before. They were stuck in Denialville for two years and this movie served them a big dish of crow pie. What matters is whether or not we like the execution. Whether or not we find it convincing. Antis are little more than flecks of dirt. They were wrong. They will always be wrong.

by ZioRen Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:30 pm

Piper Maru wrote:I'm sorry, but there's not "a lot" of "She gave up on him in the end."

On the contrary, there are a lot of people shipping them and wanting them to be together in IX.

We were right. We figured out everything before everyone else. Stop obsessing about what other people think.

@Piper Maru

I've seen it. Mostly among unhappy people who haven't seen the movie, but it'll no doubt be a popular thought process in some circles.

I'm not "obsessing" over anything. Rolling Eyes

I'm just expressing annoyance about how I foresee the fandom culture of the future. Clearly I have to think harder about what I choose to post.

by Piper Maru Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:32 pm

At this point, I really couldn't care less about this fandom outside this forum.

They were bullies. A bunch of ignorant, arrogant, misogynistic and gross people who treated us like garbage for 2 years because we dared to think outside the box.

Their opinion = nothing to me and I have no interest in giving them a single second of my attention. They made fun of my Master's Degree in Media Studies and Narratology (since when a degree became a slur?? lol), and now they're crying on the internet and selling their tickets on ebay Very Happy

by FrolickingFizzgig Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:36 pm

Piper Maru wrote:At this point, I really couldn't care less about this fandom outside this forum.

They were bullies. A bunch of ignorant, arrogant, misogynistic and gross people who treated us like garbage for 2 years because we dared to think outside the box.

Their opinion = nothing to me and I have no interest in giving them a single second of my attention. They made fun of my Master's Degree in Media Studies and Narratology (since when a degree became a slur?? lol), and now they're crying on the internet and selling their tickets on ebay

@Piper Maru
They mocked my English/children's lit degree too. Laughing

by rawpowah Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:39 pm

I listened to some of the Collider reviews for a bit and I think they're still shocked and confused Laughing

Guess it didn't go the way they thought. Twisted Evil

by AceofWands Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:40 pm

Piper Maru wrote:At this point, I really couldn't care less about this fandom outside this forum.

They were bullies. A bunch of ignorant, arrogant, misogynistic and gross people who treated us like garbage for 2 years because we dared to think outside the box.

Their opinion = nothing to me and I have no interest in giving them a single second of my attention. They made fun of my Master's Degree in Media Studies and Narratology (since when a degree became a slur?? lol), and now they're crying on the internet and selling their tickets on ebay

@Piper Maru

I agree. I actually think that they've always known we were right. At least the ones who engaged with us. They couldn't argue, so they resorted to bullying offending and censoring. They knew we had better arguments, and they couldn't argue back. I don't care what they think, I just find it sad that many of this people represent SW fandom.

Also, please remember, the brilliant people from a famous place which banned us debated for years whether Palpatine was or wasn't Sidious. lol!

So I don't think these people are worth our time. Thank goodness SW fans have better places to debate SW now.

by TheLastJedi Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:41 pm

Rey wants to be with Ben, and Ben wants to be with Rey. That's cannon!
The only problem is they have different opinions on how Laughing

by nite0wl29 Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:48 pm

I definitely don't see her giving up on him

Spoiler:

by FrolickingFizzgig Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:51 pm

@Nite0wl29
Could you spoiler tag any dialogue leaks? I know this is the spoiler forum but I believe a lot of us don't want to see the actual dialogue.

That said, it's not as disturbing as some were making it out to be. He just goes on a Sasuke "Revolution" speech and basically goes full-on "destroy everything" rogue.

I'm excited.

by nite0wl29 Tue 12 Dec 2017, 2:55 pm

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Nite0wl29
Could you spoiler tag any dialogue leaks? I know this is the spoiler forum but I believe a lot of us don't want to see the actual dialogue.

That said, it's not as disturbing as some were making it out to be. He just goes on a Sasuke "Revolution" speech and basically goes full-on "destroy everything" rogue.

I'm excited.

w
@FrolickingFizzgig

Got it covered Wink

and yes that's the way I'm taking it as well.

by Piper Maru Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:03 pm

To put things in perspective:

The dude murdered Han Solo. Rey watched it. She called him a monster.

AND YET SHE WANTED HIM TO COME BACK WITH HER.

Trust me, Kylo beating the s*** out of the Resistance (a group of people she doesn't even care about) is not going to make her hate him forever.

by FrolickingFizzgig Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:12 pm

by ZioRen Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:15 pm

I haven't seen ONE negative review of Adam yet, even within the ones that ream TLJ.

by vaderito Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:15 pm

Ok, so I'm switching between euphoria and big concerns. I'm glad that some concerns have been addressed in this thread. I understand that they have to have a big separation as if they'll never get together in the middle movie. That's drama. I understand that part perfectly.

OTOH, based on everything I read, and I mean everything, I have a feeling that nobody progressed as a character, not just Rey and Kylo but literally nobody. Rey is still the girl who wants to help, intrigued by Kylo but then refusing his offer (like in TFA). Kylo is still a conflicted villain who chooses to be with FO again (like in TFA). Finn, Poe, same thing. Nobody seems to go anywhere that they haven't been in TFA.

So since I care about Reylo relationship, it seems to me that development from the first 1/2 or so of the movie ended with a step back to TFA status quo - they hate each other cause hurt feelings (just like in TFA). For a moment in TFA she hoped he'd go with Han and he didn't. For a moment in TLJ she hoped he'd turn to the light and he didn't. OTOH, he constantly hope she'll want to come with him and flip the bird to everything and everyone else. And she doesn't. So tell me where is the progress in their relationship?

Moreover, the Force Bond appears to be super vague, they have it but maybe Snoke created it, maybe he messed up with it (sent them visions and sith) and ultimately served no purpose since they ended up exactly where they've been at the end of TFA. And she turned it off so that's that.

I mean, he kills Snoke which is good I guess but then frames her in order to get Snoke's #1 Fan Hux to work with him, then wants to kill her by sending a squad of TIE after her, and then looks like a puppy when she's leaving . I don't know what to say except this is TFA ending 2.0. I honestly cannot see where they are going with this. two more years of "he's totally dark" "no he's conflicted" "dark" "conflicted" "dark" "conflicted".

IMO, this looks like they are trying to send all Skywalkers back to the Force. And while I couldn't imagine pessimistic ending with unredeemed Kylo, I don't see where progress towards redemption can come from. Based on all reviews, the movie has too many characters and plots and over half of them didn't add up to anything. So Episode IX isn't going to be different so when is all that progress going to happen? the way it's going, Hux may form an alliance with Rey's fighters against Kylo instead of the other way around (Kylo+Rey vs Hux). I'm super confused and expect Kylo to take up residence on Mustafar.

by AnneNeville Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:20 pm

MindAndMagic wrote:Wow, guys, I have no words. This is cool beyond belief. Hats down to Rian for this bold and original take on the story. I don't think the initial fan reviews we had fully captured the nuance and ambiguity of it (e.g. talking about Kylo's lust for power), even though the plot points were accurate. It's not about Renperor at all. This is something completely different. If it unravels the way I'm imagining it, i.e. late Shippuden Sasuke, Kylo's arc will be amazing, the most impressive character development we've ever seen in the saga. It's quite possible Kylo doesn't want to associate himself with either the FO or the Resistance. It seems he wants to establish sth completely new, forge his own path to end all war once and for all. It's not about him being evil, just like Sasuke was never a traditional villain, you couldn't even describe him as such. And he obviously wants Rey by his side. He wants her badly and by the looks of it, she is far from indifferent. He is approaching it the wrong way now because it's only part 2 of 3, but he'll come around by the end. It can't go any other way.

I don't intend to read the subs, but it seems like Kylo in a typical Kyloesque fashion throws one of his tantrums after Rey rejects him. It could even be presented as humorous on screen, it's all in the tone of the scene, the acting, the gestures, the looks they exchange, etc. And sure enough, he doesn't actually do anything and lets them go, which only serves to show he not only hasn't lost his humanity and become "more evil", but is more conflicted than ever now that he is more conscious of what he feels for Rey. I can't wait to see Adam and Daisy's performances. It's so wonderful to see SO much universal praise for their scenes together. 99.9% of reviews emphasise their intense, magnetic chemistry. RJ is truly breaking new ground with this new way of communicating through the Force and Rey and Kylo's unique intimate connection. I also love how he seems to be on the verge of breaking the 4th wall with some of those lines: the ReySky joke, "this is not going to go the way you think". I'm loving it. xD

Last, but not least, the final scene. All the talks about humanity and empathising with both sides from RJ and Adam are not coincidental. Kylo holding on to a symbol related to his family, him and Rey exchanging one last look, still unable to reconcile their ideals. This is going to be such a deliciously angsty ride, but them eventually coming together is inevitable. As inevitable as the fact that we're going to enjoy this film immensely.

@MindAndMagic

There's a nice poetry to Kylo watching Rey fly off in the Falcon. TFA had her fly away from him, too, after a long look back. Moreover, he is a character who feels abandoned by all. Imagine of him as a child watching Han fly off--or his parents departure when he was left with Luke.

The dice are a great touch. Perhaps they function like the list scene of Kylo on the Falcon in TFA did.

Rey had a similar moment in TFA with her parents, in the forceback.

I'm wondering if we get an answer to what happened in the forceback KoR scene. Seems like a big moment to leave hanging.

by ZioRen Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:22 pm

@vaderito

I've seen some reviews complain that nothing really gets anywhere in TLJ. I didn't see how they could think that considering frigging Luke Skywalker dies, but they're probably seeing it the same way you are.

I also see your point. I think, mentally and emotionally, there has still been a big shift in how Rey and Kylo see each other and will continue to see each other in IX, in spite of themselves or not. But in a few ways we do seem to be back at square one.

by nite0wl29 Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:26 pm

vaderito wrote:Ok, so I'm switching between euphoria and big concerns. I'm glad that some concerns have been addressed in this thread. I understand that they have to have a big separation as if they'll never get together in the middle movie. That's drama. I understand that part perfectly.

OTOH, based on everything I read, and I mean everything, I have a feeling that nobody progressed as a character, not just Rey and Kylo but literally nobody. Rey is still the girl who wants to help, intrigued by Kylo but then refusing his offer (like in TFA). Kylo is still a conflicted villain who chooses to be with FO again (like in TFA). Finn, Poe, same thing. Nobody seems to go anywhere that they haven't been in TFA.

So since I care about Reylo relationship, it seems to me that development from the first 1/2 or so of the movie ended with a step back to TFA status quo - they hate each other cause hurt feelings (just like in TFA). For a moment in TFA she hoped he'd go with Han and he didn't. For a moment in TLJ she hoped he'd turn to the light and he didn't. OTOH, he constantly hope she'll want to come with him and flip the bird to everything and everyone else. And she doesn't. So tell me where is the progress in their relationship?

Moreover, the Force Bond appears to be super vague, they have it but maybe Snoke created it, maybe he messed up with it (sent them visions and sith) and ultimately served no purpose since they ended up exactly where they've been at the end of TFA. And she turned it off so that's that.

I mean, he kills Snoke which is good I guess but then frames her in order to get Snoke's #1 Fan Hux to work with him, then wants to kill her by sending a squad of TIE after her, and then looks like a puppy when she's leaving . I don't know what to say except this is TFA ending 2.0. I honestly cannot see where they are going with this. two more years of "he's totally dark" "no he's conflicted" "dark" "conflicted" "dark" "conflicted".

IMO, this looks like they are trying to send all Skywalkers back to the Force. And while I couldn't imagine pessimistic ending with unredeemed Kylo, I don't see where progress towards redemption can come from. Based on all reviews, the movie has too many characters and plots and over half of them didn't add up to anything. So Episode IX isn't going to be different so when is all that progress going to happen? the way it's going, Hux may form an alliance with Rey's fighters against Kylo instead of the other way around (Kylo+Rey vs Hux). I'm super confused and expect Kylo to take up residence on Mustafar.

@vaderito

At this point, I'm considering everything I've read progress for Rey and Kylo. They have feelings towards each other now but not knowing which way to go with them. And there's dialogue I've seen that proves she means a lot to him. And Adam has been saying all along that Kylo still feels his POV is right. Suddenly I'm feeling like this is the Reylo fanfic "Thwarted" onscreen. 2 steps forward and 5 steps back

by AnneNeville Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:28 pm

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:At this point, I really couldn't care less about this fandom outside this forum.

They were bullies. A bunch of ignorant, arrogant, misogynistic and gross people who treated us like garbage for 2 years because we dared to think outside the box.

Their opinion = nothing to me and I have no interest in giving them a single second of my attention. They made fun of my Master's Degree in Media Studies and Narratology (since when a degree became a slur?? lol), and now they're crying on the internet and selling their tickets on ebay
@Piper Maru
They mocked my English/children's lit degree too.

@FrolickingFizzgig
My professional training as a dramaturg and background in theatre meant nothing, too.

Feels good now.

by FrolickingFizzgig Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:32 pm

Guys, I think we need to take a breather for a second here.

This is Star Wars. It's all about hope and love prospering. Even TLJ promotes that message to a T, Rey and Kylo just don't get there in this movie becuse it isn't the end of the story. People love SW because of what it represents, even if they aren't fully aware. It's powerful and meaningful. It's mythological. It's heartfelt, tragic and beautiful. It is not hyper-realism. It's not about bad guys getting their comeuppance. It's about family and friendship and love and HOPE.

I for one am going to be taking a step back after all this because I can't take two more years of meltdowns when we have already flipping won.

Jason from MSW said a touch might as well be a kiss. He's right. It's over. IX just has to tie everything up satisfactorily.

by ReyofLightSide Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:33 pm

Am working through the leaks now. OMG
-surprised at the death of Snoke
-surprised about Remperor
-shocked theyt killed off Luke but imagine he comes back in 9 even more powerful
-I really hope the Reylo is mutual and clear. To me, that is a better story than one-sided and Rey rejecting him. Rey having feelings but leaving him due to his choices is a much more powerful story.
-Shirtless!Kylo- I KNEW it! Adam wasn’t looking that good for nuthin’
-I guess now we know what Kylo thinks Vader started
-I can’t wait to hear the Ben backstory
-Sad if it is true Ben Solo is dead once and for all
-Thought Kylo would be one of the last jedi but it’s Rey
-Hut slayer was true it sounds
-We guessed Snoke was calling from UR
-Rey told us from the beginning “I’m nobody”

And finally- WE WERE RIGHT ABOUT REYLO ALL ALONG
Rian is a BOSS

This movie is going to kill me.

by Krafty Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:34 pm

I totally get what everyone is saying but I'm sure we are missing something here... and we won't get it until we see the movie. I was not aware that Luke dying was a for sure thing. But ultimately until the holy explosion on the internet as everyone starts leaving the theaters happens, we don't have a for sure on the ending and the details therein.

by GiGiMarie Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:34 pm

@nite0wl29

I had the exact same thoughts regarding this sounding like the on-screen version of "Thwarted".

by vaderito Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:35 pm

ZioRen wrote:@vaderito

I've seen some reviews complain that nothing really gets anywhere in TLJ. I didn't see how they could think that considering frigging Luke Skywalker dies, but they're probably seeing it the same way you are.

I also see your point. I think, mentally and emotionally, there has still been a big shift in how Rey and Kylo see each other and will continue to see each other in IX, in spite of themselves or not. But in a few ways we do seem to be back at square one.

@ZioRen

Luke dying doesn't mean a character went somewhere as a character development. he was preparing to die at the start of TLJ (his reason for coming to Ahch-to) and he died at the end of TLJ. At least he went somewhere, from "gonna croak out of disappointment" to "gonna croak out of new hope". But others not so much. Just giving people something to do (learn new skills, hop from location to location) does not mean they actually develop as characters. I understand that in every story there are static characters who don't change and dynamic ones who do. But this one feels like everyone's static with some cosmetic changes or changes that got reverted back.

by panki Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:35 pm

vaderito wrote:Critics are acting like they don't get the point of Canto Bight. Movie cannot be only plot-forwarding, there has to be some universe building too. And the BroomBoy is a pay-off so that's that.

@vaderito

Broom boy might be related to Aya, the force sensitive girl from the Legends of Luke Skywalker story who went to Canto Bight.

by nite0wl29 Tue 12 Dec 2017, 3:37 pm

GiGiMarie wrote:@nite0wl29

I had the exact same thoughts regarding this sounding like the on-screen version of "Thwarted".

@GiGiMarie

For real, Perry was onto something with that fic! Now I need to go read that heart ache again to prepare for it Laughing

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