Force Bond Logistics & Implications

About the creation of the force bond:
Kylo knew that his equal in the light would rise and he probably had blur visions of her, that's why he said "What girl" and "it is you" in my opinion.
Rey also had visions of him before they met.
Then when he met in her in the forest he clearly sensed there was something special about her, that's why he abducted her "Something.. Who are you" in the novel.
In the script of the interrogation scene, when he tries to go in her mind, it says THEY'RE BOTH SURPRISED. They sense a feeling that passes between them. An ENERGY they recognize in each other. And then it's gone"
For me the force bond clearly created at this moment.
He refers to it even if he doesn't know what it is when he says "I feel it too"
We know a force bond can create when two powerful force users meet, especially when one is untrained.
So I don't think either Snoke created it, he may have amplified to his own means. He felt that Kylo Ren had a weakness for Rey "You have compassion for her" in the novelization of TFA

I'm going to have to agree with the majority here and put my money on the Force Bond being forged during the Interrogation scene. That's the moment when Rey suddenly unleashes all of her latent strength with the Force... and it's the scene that Daisy had to do for her auditions as Rey.



As for the sound effects, I'll need to rewatch the Force Bond scenes, but I'm pretty sure the sound we hear there is a little different than the one we hear in the interrogation scene from TFA. It's definitely something very similar sounding though, and I wager it's there to help further clue the audience in on it having something to do with the Force.

As an aside, since it was brought up a little on the last page, I'm almost completely confident that the lightsaber Ben used in the flashbacks wasn't the Bespin saber. It looks like a prototype of the same one he wields now as Kylo Ren, albeit with a stable blue blade and no exhaust ports.

I have no doubt that the Force bond was forged during the Interrogation scene. As for Snoke - we know that he's a disgusting child predator - why would we believe him when he takes credit for this force bond? Of course he would take credit for it - he knows that would hurt Kylo (and Rey) the most. Now, might he have somehow boosted it? Maybe. But created it? Nope. The Force did that. He's full of s***.
I also think they (Ben/Kylo and Rey) had been dreaming of one another for years, likely masked. I'm pretty sure that JJ didn't introduce Rey and Kylo to us masked for no reason, Finn, too, for that matter. That could account for Kylo's immediate fascination with her - the clothes are right, but he's never seen her face, so he's looking her up and down, comparing it to the memories he has from his visions/dreams. And so that would make "What girl?" "It is you." make sense within the context of the movie. Even if that's wrong - they had no visions of one another - the fact remains that "Don't be afraid; I feel it too" makes the most sense as Kylo feeling a connection, the Force bond (even if he doesn't know exactly what it is at that moment.)

This is a great thread! I'm new to the concept of force bonds so this is all really interesting!

I agree with the view that the connection was made in the interrogation room.
Looking at what Snoke says about the forcebond, I'm not sure he is saying he created it.. Here is his dialogue:
Snoke to Rey: Ohhhh have you seen something??? A weakness in my apprentice? Is that why you came? Oh you young fool. It was I that breached your minds. I stoked Ren’s conflicted soul. I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you. And you! Were not wise enough to resist the bait. And now, You will give me Skywalker and I will kill you with the cruellest stroke.

When he says I 'breached your minds' - this could mean the connection had already been made and he utilised it, and maybe strengthened it. But I don't think he created it.
And the timeline doesn't really fit if the interrogation is viewed as the moment it is forged. [way too early for Snoke to realise - he was still at that point thinking that the rising light was going to be Luke Skywalker- not Rey]. Even if it is the SKB duel that forms the connection- it's not until Rey defeats Kylo I think that Snoke would have begun to figure it out.. and been motivated to utilise the connection between them.

Doing a little reading (a very little) it seems there is a possibility that a force bond type connection can mean if one half dies the other half dies. What do you guys think? If someone has mentioned this I've missed it sorry.
Seems in TLJ that Snoke first tells Rey he will kill her. Then he slides her over to Kylo and tells him to kill her.
Either the force bond does not cause the other half to die - or Snoke doesn't know this. Because I don't think he would have been wanting to kill Kylo who at that point had pleased him so much for bringing him Rey.. Hmm..

DeeBee wrote:This is a great thread! I'm new to the concept of force bonds so this is all really interesting!

I agree with the view that the connection was made in the interrogation room.
Looking at what Snoke says about the forcebond, I'm not sure he is saying he created it.. Here is his dialogue:
Snoke to Rey: Ohhhh have you seen something??? A weakness in my apprentice? Is that why you came? Oh you young fool. It was I that breached your minds. I stoked Ren’s conflicted soul. I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you. And you! Were not wise enough to resist the bait. And now, You will give me Skywalker and  I will kill you with the cruellest stroke.

When he says I 'breached your minds' - this could mean the connection had already been made and he utilised it, and maybe strengthened it. But I don't think he created it.
And the timeline doesn't really fit if the interrogation is viewed as the moment it is forged. [way too early for Snoke to realise - he was still at that point thinking that the rising light was going to be Luke Skywalker- not Rey]. Even if it is the SKB duel that forms the connection- it's not until Rey defeats Kylo I think that Snoke would have begun to figure it out.. and been motivated to utilise the connection between them.

Doing a little reading (a very little) it seems there is a possibility that a force bond type connection can mean if one half dies the other half dies. What do you guys think? If someone has mentioned this I've missed it sorry.
Seems in TLJ that Snoke first tells Rey he will kill her. Then he slides her over to Kylo and tells him to kill her.
Either the force bond does not cause the other half to die - or Snoke doesn't know this. Because I don't think he would have been wanting to kill Kylo who at that point had pleased him so much for bringing him Rey.. Hmm..

@DeeBee
Maybe they wouldn't physically die, but a part of their souls would die or something like that. It would make sense that Snoke would want a soulless Kylo since it would be better to fulfill his evil agenda (maybe he would actually do evil things like killing his mother).

Moonlight13 wrote:

DeeBee wrote:This is a great thread! I'm new to the concept of force bonds so this is all really interesting!

I agree with the view that the connection was made in the interrogation room.
Looking at what Snoke says about the forcebond, I'm not sure he is saying he created it.. Here is his dialogue:
Snoke to Rey: Ohhhh have you seen something??? A weakness in my apprentice? Is that why you came? Oh you young fool. It was I that breached your minds. I stoked Ren’s conflicted soul. I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you. And you! Were not wise enough to resist the bait. And now, You will give me Skywalker and  I will kill you with the cruellest stroke.

When he says I 'breached your minds' - this could mean the connection had already been made and he utilised it, and maybe strengthened it. But I don't think he created it.
And the timeline doesn't really fit if the interrogation is viewed as the moment it is forged. [way too early for Snoke to realise - he was still at that point thinking that the rising light was going to be Luke Skywalker- not Rey]. Even if it is the SKB duel that forms the connection- it's not until Rey defeats Kylo I think that Snoke would have begun to figure it out.. and been motivated to utilise the connection between them.

Doing a little reading (a very little) it seems there is a possibility that a force bond type connection can mean if one half dies the other half dies. What do you guys think? If someone has mentioned this I've missed it sorry.
Seems in TLJ that Snoke first tells Rey he will kill her. Then he slides her over to Kylo and tells him to kill her.
Either the force bond does not cause the other half to die - or Snoke doesn't know this. Because I don't think he would have been wanting to kill Kylo who at that point had pleased him so much for bringing him Rey.. Hmm..

@DeeBee
Maybe they wouldn't physically die, but a part of their souls would die or something like that. It would make sense that Snoke would want a soulless Kylo since it would be better to fulfill his evil agenda (maybe he would actually do evil things like killing his mother).

@Moonlight13


Is this straight from the script where he says breached instead of bridged? Those are two completely different words with separate meanings. If so this is actually pretty huge, since most people including myself thought he said bridged.

IoJovi wrote:

Moonlight13 wrote:

DeeBee wrote:This is a great thread! I'm new to the concept of force bonds so this is all really interesting!

I agree with the view that the connection was made in the interrogation room.
Looking at what Snoke says about the forcebond, I'm not sure he is saying he created it.. Here is his dialogue:
Snoke to Rey: Ohhhh have you seen something??? A weakness in my apprentice? Is that why you came? Oh you young fool. It was I that breached your minds. I stoked Ren’s conflicted soul. I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you. And you! Were not wise enough to resist the bait. And now, You will give me Skywalker and  I will kill you with the cruellest stroke.

When he says I 'breached your minds' - this could mean the connection had already been made and he utilised it, and maybe strengthened it. But I don't think he created it.
And the timeline doesn't really fit if the interrogation is viewed as the moment it is forged. [way too early for Snoke to realise - he was still at that point thinking that the rising light was going to be Luke Skywalker- not Rey]. Even if it is the SKB duel that forms the connection- it's not until Rey defeats Kylo I think that Snoke would have begun to figure it out.. and been motivated to utilise the connection between them.

Doing a little reading (a very little) it seems there is a possibility that a force bond type connection can mean if one half dies the other half dies. What do you guys think? If someone has mentioned this I've missed it sorry.
Seems in TLJ that Snoke first tells Rey he will kill her. Then he slides her over to Kylo and tells him to kill her.
Either the force bond does not cause the other half to die - or Snoke doesn't know this. Because I don't think he would have been wanting to kill Kylo who at that point had pleased him so much for bringing him Rey.. Hmm..

@DeeBee
Maybe they wouldn't physically die, but a part of their souls would die or something like that. It would make sense that Snoke would want a soulless Kylo since it would be better to fulfill his evil agenda (maybe he would actually do evil things like killing his mother).

@Moonlight13


Is this straight from the script where he says breached instead of bridged?  Those are two completely different words with separate meanings.  If so this is actually pretty huge, since most people including myself thought he said bridged.

@IoJovi

I transcribed the scene as I heard it IoJovi. It sounded like 'breached' to me. but I'd be happy to learn I was mistaken if I am.
have a listen and let me know
[It's not an american accent and it's not a strong english accent either.. I can see bridged and breached sound very similar.
I just listened again and my opinion hasn't changed
If anyone captured the audio it's at about 1 and a half hours. ]

I’ve heard it as bridged...not saying I’m right, just that’s what I heard.

I thought Snoke said bridged. Bridged makes more sense than breached, especially in the context of what he said, I think.

I know Snoke said he created the Force connection and he may have initially, but it looks like it lasted beyond his death. In that last Rey and Kylo scene,  the way Kylo looked up and Rey looked down at him, was not the ordinary way FS people sense each other in the Force. It looked just like their connection. If Snoke created it, then shouldn't it cease at his death? Hopefully we'll find out there's more to it in Episode IX. I think it's near impossible they'll brush it aside in the next movie. There's such huge dramatic potential in having the main hero and villain have a connection like that.

Interesting meta on the Force Bond by @moodiful819:


Force Bond Speculation

I don’t know if someone else has done this already. I’ve been thinking about this since yesterday when I watched TLJ for the second time, but I noticed something I didn’t the first time.

-Spoilers below the cut-

But it seems that the force bond appears when Kylo and Rey both have their guards down.

The first time it appears, Rey has just woken up and is still gearing herself up for the day. For Kylo, he’s being treated by a droid that is slowly stitching his skin together from Rey’s attack.

In both these scenes, there is no visible threat and both characters seem relaxed onscreen. It’s only when both recognize a foreign presence within them that they react and shift into more tense interactions.

The second time it appears, Rey is enjoying a rainstorm while Kylo is alone watching over an assembly line. Again, both are alone in non-threatening situations and only begin tensing up with the presence of another.

I forget the context for Rey, but it’s the Kylo-shirtless scene. The visual metaphor of being bared is obvious and acts on multiple levels (he bares the truth to her/he is bared to her gaze as well as LAID BARE to her), but even the spareness of his room suggests it’s a place where he can relax.

The reason for all this rehashing of the movie is that the force bond always occurs during moments of relaxation, but also vulnerability. It’s repeatedly during scenes where they are alone–both physically, but also with their thoughts. It might suggest that force bonds are unconscious, but also a kind of ultra-vulnerability.

As we’ve seen with the mental interrogation scenes, entering another’s head is a highly invasive and painful process for the most part. Even for Kylo’s interrogation of Rey in the chair, Rey is still discomforted by the process–a process always framed as an active invasion. It’s an excavation of one’s most private thoughts and feelings, removing one’s agency to control what is shared and what remains unseen. The public-private distinction of one’s mind and the concept of “privacy” is destroyed in these situations, leaving the object of these actions vulnerable.

However, the seemingly spontaneous appearance of this bond frames these interactions as passive. There is a loss of control shown–in Kylo’s inability to control Rey’s mind, in what is able to be seen or felt by the other, of what is shared. Both Rey and Kylo even seem resigned to the bond after a while, aware it is a seemingly involuntary quirk between them.

But the moment in Rey’s hut shows a turning point between them. Rey–who has fought the bond at every turn before this–speaks to Kylo as an equal here. What is more, she is divulging her fear and weakness to him–her enemy. Cold, wet, and shaking, Rey is framed as a physically pitiful sight. Emotionally, she is shaken by the reemergence of her fear of abandonment. She is made vulnerable at every turn.

And yet, she is not afraid of Kylo in this exchange. She is afraid of what she saw, but she is not afraid of him for once. And by letting Kylo into her thoughts by having him listen, into her heart by sharing her fears, Rey’s choice to make herself vulnerable to Kylo is what allows the two of them to touch. She is not fighting him anymore–physically, mentally, or emotionally–and this openness she shares with him is what allows him LITERALLY THROUGH HER WALLS to reach her and touch her and let her know she is not alone.


Source: http://moodiful819.tumblr.com/post/168880718861/force-bond-speculation

One thing to keep in mind with the "did she close the connection by shutting the door on him?" question is how the same ability is shown with Leia.
First with between her and Ben, which is likely something that used to be a constant (they depict her feeling Ben via the Force when he's in utero) until the estrangement/fall. And then when Luke decides to reconnect to the Force after 6 or so years. They show his facial expression, likely feeling Leia's injuries and then she's shown murmuring his name. Luke coming 'back online,' he's able to bring Leia back out of her coma via the connection. In terms of Luke's appearance on Crait, remember how Leia and Rey each carry a 'homing beacon' which connects them to one another? It's the same principle - his connection via the Force to Leia means that Luke can home in on where she is to project himself for the confrontation with Ben.  So it's shown overtly 2x that Leia has these type of bonds/connections with both her son and her brother - both were turned off or muted for years, only to come back on over the course of the story.  

No matter the explanation (and Snoke is a lying motherf**ker for claiming that it was all his doing, he may have noticed/boosted it and was a creepy eavesdropper but it has nothing to do with him) - the bond is there between these two people. Judging from Leia's example, the connection can get turned off when people are having problems in their relationship. But it doesn't going away. And it seems like there's 4 examples of bonds/ability to read thoughts/feelings for Ben - intrusive/controlling ones from both of his Masters, versus the more emotional/unguarded ones he shares with both Leia and Rey.

snufkin wrote:One thing to keep in mind with the "did she close the connection by shutting the door on him?" question is how the same ability is shown with Leia.
First with between her and Ben, which is likely something that used to be a constant (they depict her feeling Ben via the Force when he's in utero) until the estrangement/fall. And then when Luke decides to reconnect to the Force after 6 or so years. They show his facial expression, likely feeling Leia's injuries and then she's shown murmuring his name. Luke coming 'back online,' he's able to bring Leia back out of her coma via the connection. In terms of Luke's appearance on Crait, remember how Leia and Rey each carry a 'homing beacon' which connects them to one another? It's the same principle - his connection via the Force to Leia means that Luke can home in on where she is to project himself for the confrontation with Ben.  So it's shown overtly 2x that Leia has these type of bonds/connections with both her son and her brother - both were turned off or muted for years, only to come back on over the course of the story.  

No matter the explanation (and Snoke is a lying motherf**ker for claiming that it was all his doing, he may have noticed/boosted it and was a creepy eavesdropper but it has nothing to do with him) - the bond is there between these two people. Judging from Leia's example, the connection can get turned off when people are having problems in their relationship. But it doesn't going away. And it seems like there's 4 examples of bonds/ability to read thoughts/feelings for Ben - intrusive/controlling ones from both of his Masters, versus the more emotional/unguarded ones he shares with both Leia and Rey.

@snufkin

I came to a similar conclusion today, and was coming here to ask if anyone else noticed.
I think the Luke/Leia Bond is there to show the audience a familial bond, a normal one, if you will. It’s reminding them that we’ve seen this kind of thing before. It simultaneously tells us that the bond between Rey/Kylo-Ben is something else. It’s special and stronger.
Of course, that confuses people because Snoke claims it. They think it must be his construct and then later ignore or miss the fact it remains at the end of the movie. The only thing that has changed is that Rey seems to voluntarily close that session. In a way, that is much more interesting because it allows them more autonomy and agency. And we know that when Snoke dies, his Force powers die with him as demonstrated by Rey’s being freed from his grip as he breathes his last, the creepy *expletitive.”

I watched TFA last night after everyone went to bed in my household, during the interrogation they connected and it seemed Kylo powered up her force strength, which was there the whole time during the movie. Then with the cliff scene, they are completely connecting there....right before she beats him and slashes his face.

@PalmettoBlue I know people are cringing over Leia's big moment of showing off her Force powers. But after Carrie Fisher's various comments about how "Even in space there's a double standard" regarding Leia's powers, it was there for multiple reasons. They made a point with the Visual Guide that Luke originally wanted to train her first but she passed because she was pregnant and the New Republic needed her leadership (which nice message there, she has all that power but prefers instead to use her other abilities because those are most in need). But the implication is that she has as much potential/power as he did, just that she had other obligations to fulfill. Anyways, yes they show her having these moments with both Ben and Luke to show how bonds typically work between Force users - parent and child or between master and student. Although I'd guess Leia at least acts as something of a "homing beacon" for Luke to both help her wake up from her coma and for him to project himself to Crait.

What happens between Ben and Rey is different, clicks into place the moment they come into contact with each other and he gets nosy/starts looking into her mind b/c he's curious about her and exists independent of whatever Snoke claims. He was eavesdropping (creeper) and may have boosted the signal, but he never controlled it.

snufkin wrote:@PalmettoBlue I know people are cringing over Leia's big moment of showing off her Force powers. But after Carrie Fisher's various comments about how "Even in space there's a double standard" regarding Leia's powers, it was there for multiple reasons. They made a point with the Visual Guide that Luke originally wanted to train her first but she passed because she was pregnant and the New Republic needed her leadership (which nice message there, she has all that power but prefers instead to use her other abilities because those are most in need). But the implication is that she has as much potential/power as he did, just that she had other obligations to fulfill. Anyways, yes they show her having these moments with both Ben and Luke to show how bonds typically work between Force users - parent and child or between master and student. Although I'd guess Leia at least acts as something of a "homing beacon" for Luke to both help her wake up from her coma and for him to project himself to Crait.

What happens between Ben and Rey is different, clicks into place the moment they come into contact with each other and he gets nosy/starts looking into her mind b/c he's curious about her and exists independent of whatever Snoke claims. He was eavesdropping (creeper) and may have boosted the signal, but he never controlled it.

@snufkin

I'm fine with Leia using the force. I had it on my bingo card. It's just the way they did it was laughable. I wish it hadn't been a stiff superman moment. I wish it had just looked different. Something more raw.

I was also perfectly fine with Leia using the Force. Anyone who has been paying any attention knows that she has the Force; she just doesn't commonly wield it the way active users do. It did look a bit "Superman," which was kind of awkward, but otherwise....

Just out of curiosity - does anyone know of any articles/links I can read to get a better handle on Force bonds? I'm developing some serious head canons, and if I'm off on the wrong road, I'd rather know now! Also, is Knights of the Old Republic no longer canon? I've been under the impression it's not.

@SheLitAFire - it's silly but it's also one of those moments like Rose and Finn ride a space horse that I figure are meant for the kids in the audience, not grouchy adults like me. From the rumor, it sounded more like something was going to fall on her a la the tunnel in Hoth collapsing, and she uses the Force to block and deflect it. But it does mean that she's the first non-affiliated Force user shown in the entire franchise, she's not allied with any of the 'denominations' shown. Like for all his big "burn it all down" speech, it's like Ben? Maybe go talk to your mom 'cause she's been something different for Force users her entire life.

Just some wild thoughts.

I was thinking about that line by Kylo when he wonders how the Force Skype works and assumes that if Rey was projecting herself, the effort would kill her. And it turned to be true since Luke died after projecting himself on Crait.

So I was thinking how awesome it would be that their growing Force Bond would allow Kylo or Rey to teleport themselves where the other is, not only as a projection but physically. It seems that a first step was completed with Kylo coming into Rey's surrounding briefly during the hand touch and Luke obviously aware of his presence.

So I would really love the idea that Rey would learn Luke about the causes of his death, ask him whether teleportation without fatal consequences is possible or not (for a mission) and Luke revealing that to his knowledge it could work only if your goal is a place you desire the most to be above all

And I have remarked that their Force Skype session mostly happen when their environment is calm and their mental state rather relax. So I was thinking what a comic scene it would be if Supreme Leader Kylo Ren would have the most advanced safety system to prevent any assassination attempt in his sleep (you know the same kind of safety system as Padme's in AOTC) and would literally fall off the bed under the shock after noticing that Rey lies asleep next to him although she is supposed to be far away. And how comic it would be that Rey would have teleported herself unwillingly by his side. After all, Rian already gave us shirtless Kylo in a kid movie

They have laid the groundwork for teleportation, I think. Clearly, portions of her environment can move through the bond (rain), and when they are touching hands, they seem to corporeal. I don't know who it works, but if they can touch each other, then why couldn't he move and actually be there? Or vice versa?

@snufkin

I honestly was surprised when I found out some people thought Leia's display of the Force was cheesy and laughable.

When I went to watch it everyone in the cinema ooohed and aaaahed. And even local media reviews raved at that scene. But that's my demographic. So far most complaints I read are from other countries and mostly US audience.

PalmettoBlue wrote:They have laid the groundwork for teleportation, I think. Clearly, portions of her environment can move through the bond (rain), and when they are touching hands, they seem to corporeal. I don't know who it works, but if they can touch each other, then why couldn't he move and actually be there? Or vice versa?

@PalmettoBlue

Yes I definitely think as their bond grows stronger, they will be able to teleport!! which is just...SO ROMANTIC. Like no other people would ever be able to that besides them. Perhaps a moment like that occurs during a crucial time. I think it would also be cool if over time, they could actually feel each other's pain, like if she got hit or something, it would hurt him too.
And yea as said above, I'm guilty of having a dirty fantasy that they somehow found themselves in the same bed.....

Oh phew. I found this thread again. I post things and then forget where they were and can't find them!
I think the breached/bridged Snoke quote will need to wait for the dvds to clarify.
I do think that it makes no sense timing wise for Snoke to have forged the bond initially - if the bond was created during the interrogation scene.. my previous comment touched on that..

Had a thought a few days ago- We've been noting that we see the Force Bond still exists at the end of TLJ - and this demonstrates that it has outlived Snoke.
Keeping an open mind here (or at least trying to) - If Snoke is the one who created the force bond, it could also be that the force bond still existing is a sign that Snoke is not dead, and he still survives in some capacity somewhere in the universe..
[not saying this is what I would want.. just that it is an alternative explanation. ]

I borrowed a friend's visual dictionary for TLJ and noticed that it is calling this connection a 'bond'. So I guess 'bond' is canon?
It says:
"As Rey's abilities increase, so does a strange and seemingly unprecedented connection in the Force that spans across the galaxy to unite Kylo Ren and Rey. The bond is powerful, and gives Rey insights into Ren that not even Skywalker can see."

the 'seemingly' in this quote is interesting no?

One thing bothers me... TPTB have not given the "Force bond" an official name... Rian called it "Force connection" though?

I have read the whole thread but I just want to make sure again. Rey can't shot Kylo, but Kylo's hand was wet and they can touch each other's hands.

1. They are not able to hurt each other through FB (so they were suppose to be able to touch each other since the beginning, but cannot hurt each other?)

2. The connection level increases each time (so they were not able to touch each other on the first FB)

Which one is the more popular theory?

@shii405
It's 2. I believe the Visual Dictionary and other things have said that the stronger Rey gets with the Force, the stronger her connection with Kylo gets.

ZioRen wrote:@shii405
It's 2. I believe the Visual Dictionary and other things have said that the stronger Rey gets with the Force, the stronger her connection with Kylo gets.

@ZioRen

Right. Also, aside from the wetness on his face and fingers and their ability to touch in the hut, the sound of their voices actually become much less "distant" over time. At first when they talk to each other, there is a significant echo, like they talking in a cave or through a vent. By the time they get to the hand touch scene,  that echo is not only gone, but Luke can see him, which he could not earlier.