Anything you see anew in The Force Awakens after watching The Last Jedi?

@nickandnora - it's always great to explore different points of view. When we do- sometimes we change our views.. or sometimes we just come to understand how we experience the story at a deeper level - because we actually have to stop and ask ourselves - why did I see it like this and not like that? I guess it's a form of socratic questioning!

I agree with how @snufkin is seeing things - I never thought Han activated Kylo/Ben's saber (I know people played with this idea though)
- but after TLJ I'm even more convinced he did not, and that the story is telling us Kylo/Ben made a choice. An awful, heart breaking, wrong choice..
I love the Kylo/Ben character, so I can be tempted at times to minimise his crimes, his evil actions.. [not saying anyone is doing that, only that I identify a desire to do this in myself]

For me - for it to not be murder would take away one of my favourite aspects of the way the scene plays out - Han's reaction of tenderly touching Kylo/Ben's cheek like that after he stabbed him, and the expression that went along with it - I saw it as a non verbal offering of unconditional love - and forgiveness. This truly is the greatest gift Han could have given to Kylo/Ben - it seems this is what Kylo/Ben needs the most - and I suspect Han didn't really expression this to Kylo/Ben as he was growing up.. Very understandable given how Han's character is... and I'm glad he was able to do that for his son in his final moments.
Love and forgiveness from Han is IMHO going to be central to Kylo's being redeemed and finding a way to move beyond his past crimes and build a future for himself - honouring his dad's sacrifice... I think I'll go have a cry now! lol..

DeeBee wrote:@nickandnora - it's always great to explore different points of view. When we do- sometimes we change our views.. or sometimes we just come to understand how we experience the story at a deeper level - because we actually have to stop and ask ourselves - why did I see it like this and not like that? I guess it's a form of socratic questioning!

I agree with how @snufkin is seeing things - I never thought Han activated Kylo/Ben's saber (I know people played with this idea though)
- but after TLJ I'm even more convinced he did not, and that the story is telling us Kylo/Ben made a choice. An awful, heart breaking, wrong choice..
I love the Kylo/Ben character, so I can be tempted at times to minimise his crimes, his evil actions.. [not saying anyone is doing that, only that I identify a desire to do this in myself]

For me - for it to not be murder would take away one of my favourite aspects of the way the scene plays out - Han's reaction of tenderly touching Kylo/Ben's cheek like that after he stabbed him, and the expression that went along with it - I saw it as a non verbal offering of unconditional love - and forgiveness. This truly is the greatest gift Han could have given to Kylo/Ben - it seems this is what Kylo/Ben needs the most - and I suspect Han didn't really expression this to Kylo/Ben as he was growing up.. Very understandable given how Han's character is... and I'm glad he was able to do that for his son in his final moments.
Love and forgiveness from Han is IMHO going to be central to Kylo's being redeemed and finding a way to move beyond his past crimes and build a future for himself - honouring his dad's sacrifice... I think I'll go have a cry now! lol..

@DeeBee
I'm going to take some time to read your other post in the Kylo/Ben thread, but just wanted to respond to what you wrote above. I'm totally with you (and @snufkin) re Han's death and the fallout from it for Ben. Paired with Ben's own reaction just moments after Han falls off the bridge, is the idea I've wondered about for a while... as a sort of touch empath, exactly what did Kylo/Ben read in his father's mind in his last moments? Something that not only made him gasp in agony, but also affected him to the extent of tears in front of Snoke. This wasn't just the fact of killing his father, it was an act of pushing himself to lose the last vestiges of his soul...

If JJ does bring Han back in some way -- whether in a dream sequence or something else -- it would have to be written as something that's taken a piece out of Kylo and wrung it out to dry.

Perhaps this has been discussed here before, but given how controversial some of the creative choices in TLJ were, it might be worth bringing up the supposed "mystery boxes" JJ is so notorious for in TFA.

Were there actually boxes? Unanswered questions, sure. But it's like fans want to imagine there are more problems than there are, so they have something to figure out so they can look clever while doing it. If we don't have a certain piece of information, it must be a huge secret of the utmost importance to have a dramatic reveal and major place in the story at a later point!

It's funny that we are actually told more about Luke's parents in ANH, that his father was a Jedi, than we do about Rey's, and it's only because GL hadn't decided on the Vader revel until ESB. With the prequels, we are told everything we need to know about Anakin's heritage in the first movie because Shmi is right there, and we are told she had the Force-conceived pregnancy. Yet there is this unbreakable belief that there must be a big reveal in TLJ or Ep. IX, despite all evidence to the contrary.

But Rey's parentage in particular has little bearing on the plot of TFA, its main appearance being in that Rey was waiting for her family on Jakku. She gets taken away from that very early on because she needs to, you know, move past that and get on with her life, as Maz so bluntly tells her. That character development continues into TLJ, especially the mirror cave scene.

I think TFA pushed a few too many nostalgia buttons a little too long and hard, so fan expectation became that both the movie and what would happen going forward from there would be just like the OT before it. It still seems like an extreme leap from what the film actually conveys, though. TFA was not 100% rehash, and it wasn't claiming to be setting up the exact the same things as other SW movies. It's not even just the OT/EU fanboys or Luke stans that were convinced of this. What was there that still convinces so many people that TFA set up some grand lineage for Rey?

Oh, and Snoke barely had any screen time and no one was hinting at or questioning his origins. It's fine to be curious about something, but audiences made it so central to the film when it wasn't. Why is it that people almost try tricking themselves, then go into outrage and blame someone else for it?

I for one find the hand touching/vision scene from TLJ to be much more of a mystery box. The results of this encounter has a profound impact on the plot, with Rey abandoning her quest to retrieve Luke and instead go to help turn Kylo. Snoke dies, there is the Reylo fighting teamup against the Praetorian guards, Kylo proposes galactic rule with Rey, they make Anakin's lightsaber break in half, Kylo is Supreme Leader now, Rey is a Resistance hero. The effects of that hand-touching scene have a massive impact on the remainder of the movie and potentially the next one, yet no one talks about this, including what the two characters might have seen to convince them that certain actions would yield the other coming to their side.

But no, let's all sit around and argue about how Rian destroyed the Rey's parents "mystery box" that had basically no effect on anything in the story up until that point.

@californiagirl I agree with you.

I personally didn't see any mystery box about Rey parents in the cinema, when I watched TFA for the first time. And I heard that she is Solo before!

I was shocked about all theories. I kind of always wanted some hint on her being Kenobi but I was sure it won't happen.

Now I can imagine only that there can be some dramatic element connected to her uncaring parents. For example, she killed them with the Force and this is what Kylo actually saw in the vision and that's why he was so sure that she will turn (mirroring his patricide). And Kylo decided not to tell her in the end when he understood that she didn't remember it. You know, something like this.

(It's unlikely, I'm just saying that this is max we can get about her parents)

And I see hand scene more like mystery, like you said.

I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.

I finally caught TFA on basic cable here in the States and it hit me, the moment when Han tells Rey and Finn about whatever went wrong at Uncle Luke's Bible Camp (sorry Han, turns out your brother in law thought about murdering your son, that's what happened), the Force theme plays behind his speech. Same music which plays when Rey catches the sword and during the "closest thing we'll have to a sex scene" smut hut moment when they clasp hands. Like that's *not* a coincidence that the same piece of music plays at all 3 moments.

I’m not sure why I didn’t notice this before, but in addition to fulfilling his promise to Leia, Han had another reason to call out to his son on SKB when he could have just done his job and left: he and Chewie had just put bombs all over the place and were about to detonate them, and then Han saw his own child in the very place he was about to blow to smithereens.

@PalmettoBlue — love your podcast, but I have to disagree with Frankie about Han’s death and its meaning. I’m with you. Frankie said that even in the unlikely event that Kylo isn’t redeeemed, Han's death would still have meaning because he had fulfilled his mission for the Resistance. Yes and no, in my opinion. I think he would have died a hero, sure, if something had happened to him on SKB, but in the context of the actual events of the film, Han was about to get out of there until he called out to Ben. He was as safe as Rey, Finn and Chewbacca, all of whom escaped SKB with their lives—but he chose to give up a safe exit for a cause that meant more to him, his own son. Han died because he tried to help his son, not because he tried to help the Resistance. The purpose of his final act wasn’t to blow up Starkiller Base— they had already set that up and just needed to press a button. Actually, he basically put his companions’ escape plans in danger in order to try to save his son. It’s not like he was distracting Kylo so they could get away (I think Kylo was trying to ignore him and avoid the inevitable, but either way, he was walking away from our little crew. They didn’t need a distraction to escape like the one Luke provided in TLJ).

I’m too much of an English major not to love the fact that the character who starts out as cynical and selfish gives his life in a final act of love and faith. Touching Ben’s face makes abundantly clear where he stands. As an end to the four-film (so far) arc of Han Solo’s life, it’s beautifully done.

Small detail I noticed watching TFA in HD from TNT's recent broadcast of it, the moment when Han and Leia are reunited and Threepio c**k blocks them yet again - Leia does this small eye roll that's straight out of her expressions from ESB.

Birdwoman wrote:I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.

@Birdwoman

That "Luke" from Rey was a pretty deliberate misdirection, though. I'm kinda tired of JJ's misdirections... makes me wary of IX.

Dar-ren19 wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.

@Birdwoman

That "Luke" from Rey was a pretty deliberate misdirection, though. I'm kinda tired of JJ's misdirections... makes me wary of IX.

@Dar-ren19

Yeah..that whole lightsaber moment was the main Rey Skywalker proof. Even coming out of the theater as a reylo, I thought based on the "Luke" he would become a father figure to her. What's so hilarious now in retrospect is that Luke did literally nothing for her. It is clear as day now where her belonging lies.

rey09 wrote:

Dar-ren19 wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I am watching TFA now. Maz is pretty clear...the belonging you seek is ahead....
After watching TLJ, her belonging was not Luke but Kylo. It is so fascinating that so many fans, have missed that nugget. It isn't that big of a mystery now that we have two movies out in the ST.

@Birdwoman

That "Luke" from Rey was a pretty deliberate misdirection, though. I'm kinda tired of JJ's misdirections... makes me wary of IX.

@Dar-ren19

Yeah..that whole lightsaber moment was the main Rey Skywalker proof. Even coming out of the theater as a reylo, I thought based on the "Luke" he would become a father figure to her. What's so hilarious now in retrospect is that Luke did literally nothing for her. It is clear as day now where her belonging lies.

@rey09

That's the main reason I thought they were cousins! And stupid me decided to ignore ALL of the OTHER pointers in the opposite direction simply because of that "Luke". It actually kinda makes me angry. Because if I'd not paid heed to that, I'd have been on this board much earlier with all of you and not waited until I saw TLJ... it was AFTER I saw TLJ that I came out of the theater with my head all dizzy and then I ran home to rewatch TFA... and BOOM!

JJ and his fckign misdirections!

@Dar-ren19

since IX will be the last Episode I hope we won't get new mystery boxes or misdirections anymore in the movie (the marketing will be something different- but that's expected).

I don't remember where I heard the joke about JJ creating all this mystery boxes in TFA and then RJ looked into those boxes and they were all empty so he thought wtf???     and threw them over his shoulder just like Luke with his lightsaber in TLJ...

Night Huntress wrote:@Dar-ren19

since IX will be the last Episode I hope we won't get new mystery boxes or misdirections anymore in the movie (the marketing will be something different- but that's expected).

I don't remember where I heard the joke about JJ creating all this mystery boxes in TFA and then RJ looked into those boxes and they were all empty so he thought wtf???     and threw them over his shoulder just like Luke with his lightsaber in TLJ...

@Night Huntress

lmao! LOve it!

Ok so I was watching a Kylo Ren moments compilation from both TFA and TLJ and what is crystal clear to me is that Ben was against mass destruction from the get go.

It's so obvious when Hux and Kylo are in front of holo Snoke.
First when they're summoned after Poe escapes, Hux is eager to use the weapon to destroy the republic so the resistance are left without support. Ben gives him a look there. Granted, he has his mask on but it's a long looong look. After the meeting is over he goes back to his Vader mask chamber and confesses that he feels the pull to the light.

The second time is after Rey resists him in the interrogation room.
Hux and Kylo are summoned again, they don't have BB-8 and Rey has withstood Kylo's mind intrusion. Hux says that the resistance have quite likely acquired the map but he has tracked the escape ship to the Ileenium system and they should destroy it all, Snoke orders him to use the weapon. That's where Kylo butts in quite panicked and says ''Supreme leader I can get the map from the girl, I just need your guidance.''
He then has one of his temper tantrums in the empty interrogation room seeing that Rey has made it out. I saw that as without Rey, without the map in her head, Hux has nothing to stop him from destroying the Ileenium system.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into these but there are subtle nuances and great acting on Adam Driver's part that makes you feel his panic and conflict in these moments.

It's a recurring theme. He's conflicted about killing Han yet does it and it destroys his soul. In TLJ he's conflicted about shooting the Raddus, he can't do it. He's always conflicted about what to do while making choices all over the light and dark spectrum until Rey comes along and in the Snoke, Rey and Kylo throne room scene Snoke remarks that Ben is no longer conflicted.

That seems like quite beautiful character development to me. He goes from killing villagers without hesitation to killing Han with quite a lot of hesitation to not being able to kill Leia but be passive about the outcome to finally turn against Snoke and outright refuse to kill Rey.

Something else I've noticed is that in the Rey interrogation scene he calls the rebels murderers, traitors and thieves.
It seems like he actually does believe that he's on the right side. Bloody Snoke brainwashing at it's finest.

Mielikki wrote:

I don't know if I'm reading too much into these but there are subtle nuances and great acting on Adam Driver's part that makes you feel his panic and conflict in these moments.

@Mielikki
No you're not reading too much into it. I noticed all this long before I even understood the reylo dynamic (well, I saw it but thought they were related and was very disturbed at the beginning   )
Also the shot of him during the destruction of the Hosnian System. He isn't on Starkiller during Hux's speech. He is masked but the way they shot it and the sad music playing in the background - it's totally clear he is not okay with this (to put it mildly)
I don't even think it's subtle.

Welcome by the way

@Night Huntress

Thank you, it’s lovely to be here!


Oh, oh something else! I’ve finally managed to hear the “It’s Ben.” whisper when Maz talks to Rey!!
You can hear it right after Maz says “The saber, take it.” and Rey refuses, scared.

Maz: Dear child, I see your eyes - you already know the truth. Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back, but there's someone who still could. The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead. I am no jedi, but I know the force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes, feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you. The sabre - take it. *It’s Ben.*
Rey: I'm never touching that thing again, I don't want any part of this!

That whisper is absolutely deliberate! It’s right at the end of Maz’s prophetic speech.

We’ve all agreed that  Maz’s whole speech was about Ben. The one that could still come back: Ben. The belonging Rey seeks: Ben. What the light inside Rey will guide her to: Ben.

And it is coming true but in reverse order.

The light inside Rey literally guided her to the Supremacy in TLJ. Literally. The moment she realised that Ben was wronged she jumped in a crate and shipped herself to him. On a whim. Third part of Maz’s prophecy; check.

The belonging she seeks is with Ben. You’re not alone, neither are you, you’re nothing but not to me, Skywalker lightsaber calling etc etc. Second part of Maz’s prophecy; check.

The obvious first part of Maz’s prophecy is Ben coming back and she’s got two out of three right. I’ll trust the statistics. Counting on you Episode IX.

I had to put this somewhere but Doug Chiang is now on IG.

I’m only geeking out because Chiang served as design director for Lucasfilm on SW 1 & 2. And then concept artist for Star Wars: The Force Awakens as well as production designer for Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. This one caught my attention, a concept with Rey climbing the ATAT

I just noticed this and then googled to see if anyone else has pointed this out(Radiotimes article, etc.), but to me, it looks like Kylo Ren's shadow is behind Rey.







Now, I feel like shadows might warrant a closer look. eg. Anakin's shadow casting Darth Vader image or Mirror Cave and shadows approaching Rey and so forth.

@Starliteprism

Good catch.

Slightly different but I also noticed the last time I watched Disney’s Tangled just after the floating lanterns scene Finn walks off on the banks of the river and she thinks he’s returning (because that’s what she wants) but the single shadow ends being the two thugs. So like the mirror scene in reverse ?

MrsWindu wrote:@Starliteprism

Good catch.

Slightly different but I also noticed the last time I watched Disney’s Tangled just after the floating lanterns scene Finn walks off on the banks of the river and she thinks he’s returning (because that’s what she wants) but the single shadow ends being the two thugs. So like the mirror scene in reverse ?

@MrsWindu

Ooooh...Good point about Tangled. I know what you are talking about as the imagery sticks in your head once seen. Must be darkness hiding in the shadows sort of deal. Not always something evil, but could be fear, or just something unknown for the moment.



Also, when Rey was talking to Kylo/Ben about her experience in the Mirror Cave, stating how she wasn't afraid, the thought that just came to mind is what if Kylo/Ben was tapping into something at the same time and through the force, he was with her, so maybe that comfort/having no fear was actually due to the fact he was there with her in some form. They are each others future, I believe, but again she was denying that simple fact and still wanting to ask a question about her parents, when she supposedly already knows the answer.

Rian Johnson did state, "The fascinating thing about Kylo and Rey is that they're two sides of something."

And I'll take it a step further, the two images of people approaching that morph into one that looks like Kylo/Ben, what if that was when Kylo referenced the fact that he knew who Rey's parents are. He was on the other side of it, and from his point of view, he is all about letting the past die, and he feels a sort of confidence even prior to hand sex scene, that they will play a role in each other's future.

TFA is a film my daughter can watch without needing too much explaination. One of her favourite parts is when Rey mind tricks the stormtrooper / Daniel Craig. I only noticed the ‘music/sound effect’ when Rey has success with the mind thrick, third time lucky. It’s part of the same sound as used during the interrogation scene towards the end when Rey reads Kylo’s fear. I know there’s a meta somewhere about those ‘force sounds’. Could someone in the know tell me if that’s Reys ‘assigned’ force sound or Kylo’s?

For me it's the killing of Lor San Tekka I see with new eyes. Initially you see the brutal murder of a helpless old man. But now I see an embittered and hurting boy lashing out after being lectured how 'wonderful' the family who abandoned and then tried to kill him were.

And now, in retrospective, his sentence "you cannot deny the truth that is your family" seems as a foreshadowing of the title The Rise of Skywalker. Proving once again that the denying fans are just like Kylo...

You should believe how many still think it's Rey.

just found this. interesting analysis of the flaws in narrative.