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Night Huntress wrote:

snufkin wrote:That's the other thing about reading Claudia Grey's novels, Leia Princess of Alderaan gave you a sense of what Leia's upbringing was like. Which you suspect is what was imposed on Ben and probably not suitable for his temperament/powers, which how the mess with Luke ended up happening. And guess we'll see soon enough from the movie whatever backstory they've come up for how Han grew up and became an adult (probably why he got overruled in child raising).

@snufkin

I got the sense Leia had great parents - Bail & Breha were always there for her- that's why she noticed when they suddenly had other priorities.
I hope we get more of Leia/Ben backstory once all movies are out. My opinion of Leia as a mother couldn't get worse at the moment and I hope they change that to the better because I loved Leia from the OT. That feisty, bossy intelligent woman who risked everything to save the ones she loved...and not just for the greater good.

@Night Huntress

I agree. Leia had the most amazing parents ever. It sounds like their level of communication with her was outstanding until her 16th year, when they hid the Rebellion from her, and she started to get all "torn apart" over it. But even that only lasts a few months and then they tell her everything and she is completely in their circle again.

She did not show that kind of honesty with Ben to say the least. Nor would I imagine Bail and Breha would have sent her away under any circumstances. Also, her parents seemed to find a balance between the political goals and their family. I personally thought that they put their family and their planet at risk with how they conducted their rebellion business, but they still achieved a better balance than Leia did with her kid.

Actually something incredibly sad just hit me, and it goes to @Rei of sunshines point. Think about Leia and Han's surrogate kids. They were all like like Little Leias or Hans. Greer and the others he mentored were devoted to flying and adventure and risk-taking like Han. Korr is like a mini-Leia Legislator. Joph is a pilot who wants to be a military hero and fight the good fight. Poe is a mix of Hotshot Han and Leia the future general.

Ben, OTOH, does calligraphy,  is seemingly studious, is very powerful in the force and probably moody because he had a predator in his head. Ben doesn't fit. He's not a mini-me. He's not understandable. But maybe if we send him away to be another Luke he might become understandable and can be part of the group ... eventually? Of course,  that's a fool's errand because "Tosche Station"/Adventure-seeking/Shoot wamprats Luke probably read the the power converters catalogue and not much else. Even as a Jedi who was searching for knowledge, apparently he was incapable of reading those old books, whereas Calligraphy Ben would have eaten those books up by candlelight in his hut like a Skellig Michael monk of old.

The kid didn't fit with the people he was born too ... and if he did fit at all, he did with his internally softie father who had no confidence as a parent, who instead he let Leia and Luke run the show.

And neither Leia nor Luke followed the parental examples they were given. And that is because they were both too zealous and singleminded about their goals that only the pieces and people that fit came along for the ride. And that's where genetics comes in. They are Vader's children raising a sensitive, scarily powered, abused boy who didn't fit their molds.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
The kid didn't fit with the people he was born too ... and if he did fit at all, he did with his internally softie father who had no confidence as a parent, who instead he let Leia and Luke run the show.

And neither Leia nor Luke followed the parental examples they were given. And that is because they were both too zealous and singleminded about their goals that only the pieces and people that fit came along for the ride. And that's where genetics comes in. They are Vader's children raising a sensitive, scarily powered, abused boy who didn't fit their molds.

@SoloSideCousin

You nailed it - Leia & Luke were too distracted and cause-driven. Han was probably lacking knowledge how to be a good parent...he had a good heart but couldn't show his affection for Ben like the sensitive boy would've needed.

And I don't think Ben is one to hold grudges - I mean Rey sliced his face, nearly killed him on SKB... then tries to shoot him immediately when she saw him through the FB...insulted him several times. And he is totally calm and smitten with her, comfort her when she is lonely and sad, saved her from evil Snoke and even make her kind of a twisted marriage purpose.
OK, he said that bad bad "I'll destroy her" line but in that context I just rolled my eyes "sure you do"

That makes me wonder how much bad blood were between him and his family... they must have wronged him badly for him to be so unforgiving.

Night Huntress wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:
The kid didn't fit with the people he was born too ... and if he did fit at all, he did with his internally softie father who had no confidence as a parent, who instead he let Leia and Luke run the show.

And neither Leia nor Luke followed the parental examples they were given. And that is because they were both too zealous and singleminded about their goals that only the pieces and people that fit came along for the ride. And that's where genetics comes in. They are Vader's children raising a sensitive, scarily powered, abused boy who didn't fit their molds.

@SoloSideCousin

You nailed it - Leia & Luke were too distracted and cause-driven. Han was probably lacking knowledge how to be a good parent...he had a good heart but couldn't show his affection for Ben like the sensitive boy would've needed.

And I don't think Ben is one to hold grudges - I mean Rey sliced his face, nearly killed him on SKB... then tries to shoot him immediately when she saw him through the FB...insulted him several times. And he is totally calm and smitten with her, comfort her when she is lonely and sad, saved her from evil Snoke and even make her kind of a twisted marriage purpose.
OK, he said that bad bad "I'll destroy her" line but in that context I just rolled my eyes "sure you do"

That makes me wonder how much bad blood were between him and his family... they must have wronged him badly for him to be so unforgiving.

@Night Huntress

That's a very good point. He *is* extremely forgiving of Rey. I too took the "I'll destroy her" as basically having a good scream for himself and wanting to bite back at Luke. And also in that moment that Luke said that, it really sounded like she had sided with "the man who tried to kill me" Luke because her rejection, her trick with the saber and her demanding of him to do exactly as she says without the slightest bit of gratitude or understanding. That whole series of events would look really bad to a regular person, so forget about him. It would look like she used him and manipulated him for her own purposes and when it didn't totally work out, she grabbed her saber and ran back to Luke, who terrifies him.  Honestly, he could think that she worked him the entire time, even sending herself in that box. I mean she got him to kill the SL and immediately expected him to be the Resistance savior. Honestly, it looks really bad if you take that pov, and he might have seen everything like that after she grabbed the saber ... and even after all that he desperately and almost pathetically wants her to love him and to hope it all wasn't a trick, and then she closes the door in his face.  

Actually as I write this,  I don't think he'll trust her one bit at the start of Black Diamond.  She was nasty to him before,  but she never so plainly rejected him.

That rejection, that abandonment, which his whole family did to him (and Snoke actually did not), may be the "bridge too far" for him.  That's probably why he had serious problems with his family, and also probably why he will need to be able to forgive her as much as she needs to forgive him, maybe even more so in Black Diamond. He will need to let go of that past.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Night Huntress

Actually as I write this,  I don't think he'll trust her one bit at the start of Black Diamond.  She was nasty to him before,  but she never so plainly rejected him.

Yes, I agree- she was hostile to him many times, but never deceitful... and that's how it must have looked from Kylo's perspective.
She could have simply said NO to his proposal and if he wanted to force her, grab the lightsaber. But she reached for his hand first and then force pulled the lightsaber without further arguing.

I don't think she wanted to kill or fight him at that moment - BUT, from Kylo's POV it must have looked that way.
I mean she always attacked him first - in Takodana (yes she shot first! ) on Starkiller when he dared to toss her against a tree to prevent her from shooting at him again, then during their first FB... so experience has shown she can be very lethal.

Of course she could've killed him when she woke up first after the lightsaber explosion- and she didn't. But she didn't bother to make sure he survived either. She just left him there like on SKB

I don't think he will be hostile or angry at her in IX - but she hurt him badly and they will need time to sort things out.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
That rejection, that abandonment, which his whole family did to him (and Snoke actually did not), may be the "bridge too far" for him.  That's probably why he had serious problems with his family, and also probably why he will need to be able to forgive her as much as she needs to forgive him, maybe even more so in Black Diamond. He will need to let go of that past.

@SoloSideCousin

I hope they will be able to forgive each other...and explain their feelings.
Rey needs to confess that she wanted HIM Ben Solo the man to come with HER...and not for him to win a war or be the savior for the resistance.

Night Huntress wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Night Huntress

Actually as I write this,  I don't think he'll trust her one bit at the start of Black Diamond.  She was nasty to him before,  but she never so plainly rejected him.

Yes, I agree- she was hostile to him many times, but never deceitful... and that's how it must have looked from Kylo's perspective.
She could have simply said NO to his proposal and if he wanted to force her, grab the lightsaber. But she reached for his hand first and then force pulled the lightsaber without further arguing.

I don't think she wanted to kill or fight him at that moment - BUT, from Kylo's POV it must have looked that way.
I mean she always attacked him first - in Takodana (yes she shot first! ) on Starkiller when he dared to toss her against a tree to prevent her from shooting at him again, then during their first FB... so experience has shown she can be very lethal.

Of course she could've killed him when she woke up first after the lightsaber explosion- and she didn't. But she didn't bother to make sure he survived either. She just left him there like on SKB

I don't think he will be hostile or angry at her in IX - but she hurt him badly and they will need time to sort things out.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
That rejection, that abandonment, which his whole family did to him (and Snoke actually did not), may be the "bridge too far" for him.  That's probably why he had serious problems with his family, and also probably why he will need to be able to forgive her as much as she needs to forgive him, maybe even more so in Black Diamond. He will need to let go of that past.

@SoloSideCousin

I hope they will be able to forgive each other...and explain their feelings.
Rey needs to confess that she wanted HIM Ben Solo the man to come with HER...and not for him to win a war or be the savior for the resistance.

@Night Huntress

I don't know if he will be actually angry-angry with her either. He actually didn't show a ton of anger towards Han, nor Leia, though I am sure that he thinks that they both screwed him. He took Snoke's s*** until Snoke started hurting Rey. A lot of his anger and pain seems to come out in self-destructive ways. If you really think about it, Luke was the one that he really showed anger with when face to face. He is shattered by what Luke did to him. Every time I see that "More, more" shooting sequence and the Luke/Ben showdown on the salt, I feel like crying because Ben's pain is so horribly palpable. Adam does such a good job that it is actually gut wrenching.

SoloSideCousin wrote:
If you really think about it, Luke was the one that he really showed anger with when face to face. He is shattered by what Luke did to him. Every time I see that "More, more" shooting sequence and the Luke/Ben showdown on the salt, I feel like crying because Ben's pain is so horribly palpable. Adam does such a good job that it is actually gut wrenching.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, I noticed that too- and that makes me think that he actually really loved Luke... that's why his betrayal hurt him so much. You can only be hurt by people you deeply care about.

Unfortunately we still don't know much about their time together or how long they traveled through the galaxy doing who knows what... But I take it that Ben trusted him, maybe even hoped he will help getting rid of Snoke and then he tried to kill him- in his sleep! He doesn't even give a chance for Ben to explain or to fight him to have a chance to defend himself.
Of course we know Luke recoiled from that thought. But Ben doesn't know that...

Night Huntress wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:
If you really think about it, Luke was the one that he really showed anger with when face to face. He is shattered by what Luke did to him. Every time I see that "More, more" shooting sequence and the Luke/Ben showdown on the salt, I feel like crying because Ben's pain is so horribly palpable. Adam does such a good job that it is actually gut wrenching.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, I noticed that too- and that makes me think that he actually really loved Luke... that's why his betrayal hurt him so much. You can only be hurt by people you deeply care about.

Unfortunately we still don't know much about their time together or how long they traveled through the galaxy doing who knows what... But I take it that Ben trusted him, maybe even hoped he will help getting rid of Snoke and then he tried to kill him- in his sleep! He doesn't even give a chance for Ben to explain or to fight him to have a chance to defend himself.
Of course we know Luke recoiled from that thought. But Ben doesn't know that...

@Night Huntress

I am sure he trusted Luke a lot, he was the one supposed to guide him through this, help him understand and then he wakes up and here is Luke with ignited lightsaber. Who knows, maybe Leia, some others like San Tekka warned Luke about Ben, but Luke still trusted Ben and his nephew felt that. And while Luke trusted Ben he still thought he can fight the darkness. And then such a disappointment.

SkyStar wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:
If you really think about it, Luke was the one that he really showed anger with when face to face.  He is shattered by what Luke did to him.  Every time I see that "More, more" shooting sequence and the Luke/Ben showdown on the salt, I feel like crying because Ben's pain is so horribly palpable.  Adam does such a good job that it is actually gut wrenching.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, I noticed that too- and that makes me think that he actually really loved Luke... that's why his betrayal hurt him so much. You can only be hurt by people you deeply care about.

Unfortunately we still don't know much about their time together or how long they traveled through the galaxy doing who knows what... But I take it that Ben trusted him, maybe even hoped he will help getting rid of Snoke and then he tried to kill him- in his sleep! He doesn't even give a chance for Ben to explain or to fight him to have a chance to defend himself.
Of course we know Luke recoiled from that thought. But Ben doesn't know that...

@Night Huntress

I am sure he trusted Luke a lot, he was the one supposed to guide him through this, help him understand and then he wakes up and here is Luke with ignited lightsaber. Who knows, maybe Leia, some others like San Tekka warned Luke about Ben, but Luke still trusted Ben and his nephew felt that. And while Luke trusted Ben he still thought he can fight the darkness. And then such a disappointment.

@SkyStar

Yes, his confront with Luke was so intense, so emotional I even remember my sister telling me, "it's personal for him, right?", and she didn't know much about ST (she watched TFA the same day, to be ready to TLJ). That was such a powerful scene and I was very sad every time I watched it.

I agree that Kylo was always very forgiving of Rey, but I can't blame him if he wants some sort of vengeance. From his POV she was just one person more who used him. And thinking about it, the next movie could be about that. They being real enemies in the beginning.

I really need Kylo to actually understand Rey at this point. I can see vengeance against her if it devolves into Rey basically screaming at Kylo about how he actually hurt HER in this. Kylo needs to learn he is not the only person in the universe who can be hurt and think about someone else's feelings for once. If he cares about Rey he should care how she feels, especially when it becomes clear he caused her pain.

I would love a scene where they basically air out their differences. There's enough now to make that really dramatic.

In all honesty, I would not mind an ending with Kylo on his knees before Rey, saying he is sorry.

In which thread to put that now... Please, mods, move to wherever thread fits best.

BAFTA Q&A:

http://www.waltdisneystudiosawards.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi/production

It’s 30 minutes long. I only started watching.

Adam is not there, though he generally isn't at these kinds of promo/awards events. RJ goes on about how he had complete control and wasn't required to include certain beats or end in a certain way and yada yada, can they please stop doing this? He does bring up that the hero's journey and Star Wars are not about turning into a hero, but about adolescence.

LOL!

Oh my, the suspense! Which side's gonna win?

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:LOL!

@Cowgirlsamurai

I wonder if he's implying something will drop soon. On the Blu-ray release? Or Episode IX? I'm just glad the barrage of negative reactions from moviegoers (like the Reddit-organized plot to lower the RT audience score to under 50%) hasn't made Rian any less upbeat and optimistic and generally adorable.

As someone who alternates between his real-life friends (all dudes) and this place when it comes to SW discussions, this is particularly relevant

californiagirl wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:LOL!

@Cowgirlsamurai

I wonder if he's implying something will drop soon. On the Blu-ray release? Or Episode IX? I'm just glad the barrage of negative reactions from moviegoers (like the Reddit-organized plot to lower the RT audience score to under 50%) hasn't made Rian any less upbeat and optimistic and generally adorable.

@californiagirl
Haha he's just joking around. The kinds of arguments going on between "fans" in that guy's mentions are predictably the entitled "Disney ruined SW/my childhood" crowd vs. the equally at fault for perpetuating a circular conversation with people who just want to b*tch and moan "get a grip" crowd. Nothing could ever drop that would end this particular debate because it's purely a clash of opinions. There will never be a winning side, as Rian insinuates in that sarcastic af reply lmao. It's the same a the "George Lucas/Jar-Jar ruined SW/my childhood" talk that's been ongoing since 1999.

MyOnlyHope wrote:

californiagirl wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:LOL!

@Cowgirlsamurai

I wonder if he's implying something will drop soon. On the Blu-ray release? Or Episode IX? I'm just glad the barrage of negative reactions from moviegoers (like the Reddit-organized plot to lower the RT audience score to under 50%) hasn't made Rian any less upbeat and optimistic and generally adorable.

@californiagirl
Haha he's just joking around. The kinds of arguments going on between "fans" in that guy's mentions are predictably the "Disney ruined SW/my childhood" crowd vs. the equally at fault for perpetuating a circular conversation with people who just want to b*tch and moan "get a grip" crowd. Nothing could ever drop that would end this particular debate because it's purely a clash of opinions. There will never be a winning side, as Rian insinuates in that sarcastic af reply lmao.

@MyOnlyHope
There's the reason I was confused! The vortex of fandom arguments will continue until Ep. 9 comes out and beyond, just like the Force Awakens. Nuance sometimes gets lost in tweets and comments. And Rian's got a whole new trilogy on the way, so he's still pretty chipper.

I love how chill Rian remains, at least outwardly.

Pablo with the salt:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Pablo with the salt:

@ISeeAnIsland

LOL

That made my morning!

Darth_Awakened wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Pablo with the salt:

@ISeeAnIsland

LOL

That made my morning!

@Darth_Awakened

Same here, I was sniggering and snorting so loudly over this tweet my kids rushed in to see if I was choking on my tea

MrsWindu wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Pablo with the salt:

@ISeeAnIsland

LOL

That made my morning!

@Darth_Awakened

Same here, I was sniggering and snorting so loudly over this tweet my kids rushed in to see if I was choking on my tea

@MrsWindu

I mean Pablo can go really salty that he gets easily on my nerves - but this one was just spot on.

To lighten the mood in the middle of new "gate" drama, have you guys seen this?  

Pablo liked it.

https://twitter.com/CptOuterSpace/status/950883108538155008

Is this a Twilight Zone? Adam doesn't have a muscular physique? LOL. Unless muscular from this guy's POV is only Arnie in his prime, the body-builder type.

vaderito wrote:Is this a Twilight Zone? Adam doesn't have a muscular physique? LOL. Unless muscular from this guy's POV is only Arnie in his prime, the body-builder type.

@vaderito

I love how Wookieepedia's Twitter was immediately there to defend our Supreme Leader.