The Last Jedi General Discussion

There's definitely (and always) critical analysis and discussions to be had about pop culture, especially this moment in time. The problem is that a lot of these "critics" are like the rest of our media, who frequently go for the absolute laziest narrative and analysis. And it doesn't help that you have the PT, which George Lucas himself wasn't exactly the sharpest pencil in the box in coming up with political allegories, it was way too ham fisted. So now you have an entire subgenre of the Hot Take and Think Pieces, the ones which cropped up two years ago.

Also my own $0.02, but Kylo becomes a straw man for a lot of fans - especially fanboys who are eager to demonstrate that they're not like the toxic nerds who are more the norm in geek and online spaces.

Kylo Rey wrote:Here's the rating for The Force Awakens:



Wtf did that get a mild sex/nudity rating for???

@Kylo Rey

Force sex. It might give innocent little teenage girls ideas.

nite0wl29 wrote:

Kylo Rey wrote:Here's the rating for The Force Awakens:



Wtf did that get a mild sex/nudity rating for???

@Kylo Rey

Mind sex? :cough:interrogation scene :cough: Just a hunch since so many antis called mind rape

@nite0wl29

Weird that TFA also got a rating for mild sex/nudity. But if it was because of the interrogation scene at least we can hope for more sexual tension between Rey and Kylo

MyOnlyHope wrote:

Forsythia wrote:Sleemo pointed out on tumblr that TLJ got an IFCO rating of 12A for "mild sex/nudity" What could that mean?



(Source)

@Forsythia
TFA received the same rating from that site (including the stuff about sex/nudity), so it probably doesn't mean anything. Obviously I'm hoping for a hot shirtless Snoke scene. I hear he has an 8-pack

@MyOnlyHope

I'm calling Chewy! That wookie never has any clothes on

Oof, Irish Catholics shouldn't play with our hearts like that. I understand that cousin-ly stares equal mild sex in their Parental Guides but c'mon! I was hoping that meant shirtless Kylo at least.

vaderito wrote:Oof, Irish Catholics shouldn't play with our hearts like that. I understand that cousin-ly stares equal mild sex in their Parental Guides but c'mon! I was hoping that meant shirtless Kylo at least.

@vaderito

Maybe because he took off certain items of clothing.

For TFA he took off the helm and maybe for TLJ he takes of the gloves.

*giddy*

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

vaderito wrote:Oof, Irish Catholics shouldn't play with our hearts like that. I understand that cousin-ly stares equal mild sex in their Parental Guides but c'mon! I was hoping that meant shirtless Kylo at least.

@vaderito

Maybe because he took off certain items of clothing.

For TFA he took off the helm and maybe for TLJ he takes of the gloves.

*giddy*

@Rei of Sunshine

FWIW, I looked up Wonder Woman on the IFCO site, and it got exactly the same rating with "mild" sex/nudity. So kissing is definitely not off limits

Can't imagine how TFA qualifies, though... unless the Irish saw Snow Fight as just as suggestive as we did.

nite0wl29 wrote:

MyOnlyHope wrote:

Forsythia wrote:Sleemo pointed out on tumblr that TLJ got an IFCO rating of 12A for "mild sex/nudity" What could that mean?



(Source)

@Forsythia
TFA received the same rating from that site (including the stuff about sex/nudity), so it probably doesn't mean anything. Obviously I'm hoping for a hot shirtless Snoke scene. I hear he has an 8-pack

@MyOnlyHope

I'm calling Chewy! That wookie never has any clothes on

@nite0wl29

I'm with you on that. It's a shame!

Someone on tumblr managed to decipher some of the text from Kylo's Empire magazine feature page (god I love our fandom):

“Kylo’s true nature - and a backstory that was deliberately omitted from VII - will move to the forefront in The Last Jedi. For Ren (Ben? undistinguished) both figuratively and literally this mask is coming off for good.”

Another user added: I can’t make out all of the earlier text, just bits and pieces like “I haven’t thought of him as a villian at all” “the first order’s tempestuous enforcer”, “the result is star wars’ most layered (*I think*) and believable antagonist to date, a [something] powerful, highly temperamental man prone to adolescent tantrums”

next to last paragraph:

“we find darth vader already completely committed; I was curious about starting with someone who was less together, who was starting in a place of self doubt,” he pauses, considering his next words carefully. “the title of The Force Awakens wasn’t just referring to the light side, it was the dark side as well.”

Kylo Rey wrote:Someone on tumblr managed to decpipher some of the text from Kylo's Empire magazine feature page (god I love our fandom):

“Kylo’s true nature - and a backstory that was deliberately omitted from VII - will move to the forefront in The Last Jedi. For Ren (Ben? undistinguished) both figuratively and literally this mask is coming off for good.”

Another user added: I can’t make out all of the earlier text, just bits and pieces like “I haven’t thought of him as a villian at all” “the first order’s tempestuous enforcer”, “the result is star wars’ most layered (*I think*) and believable antagonist to date, a [something] powerful, highly temperamental man prone to adolescent tantrums”

next to last paragraph:

“we find darth vader already completely committed; I was curious about starting with someone who was less together, who was starting in a place of self doubt,” he pauses, considering his next words carefully. “the title of The Force Awakens wasn’t just referring to the light side, it was the dark side as well.”

@Kylo Rey

That paragraph about Vader being committed and Kylo not. Almost as if put in that we'll see the rise of a sympathethic villain, much like light side hero who are attracted towards each other. Previous words from JJ fits into this that TFA was the beginning of the rise for our hero and villain and Rian reffering to him as not out Vader, not yet. I always found Kylo coming back to light not entirely what I think will happen, there has to be light and dark to create a balance. If this is truly the purpose of this ST to bring the balance.

Quotes like those are the only things that make me doubt Kylo's redemption in any way. While many things point at Kylo's eventual redemption, the things about the "dark side also awakening" and the emphasis on wanting to see an antagonist starting at a place of doubt suggest a storyline where we see a character evolve into a more complete villain.

It makes my head hurt to think too hard about it, so I tend to just go with my gut on this matter and what will be, will be.

ZioRen wrote:Quotes like those are the only things that make me doubt Kylo's redemption in any way. While many things point at Kylo's eventual redemption, the things about the "dark side also awakening" and the emphasis on wanting to see an antagonist starting at a place of doubt suggest a storyline where we see a character evolve into a more complete villain.

It makes my head hurt to think too hard about it, so I tend to just go with my gut on this matter and what will be, will be.

@ZioRen

I agree with you.

Some info on BB-9E! We can officially throw out the idea that he's Kylo's sidekick droid. And apparently they thought of him as a 'he'.

http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/28/star-wars-last-jedi-bb-9e/

This part is interesting!

But while BB-8 often pairs with X-wing pilot Poe Dameron, or rolls with Finn and Rose Tico on their mission to the casino world of Canto Bight, BB-9E is a relative loner.

Still, the two droids will have a moment of conflict in The Last Jedi. And their color schemes are a bit of an homage to the orange and white flight suit of an old-school X-wing pilot and the black, life-sustaining armor of a Sith Lord. “There’s a lovely moment between BB-8 and BB-9E, which tells that sort of parallel story of Vader and Luke,” Scanlan promises.

Eh, I think the point is simply that Kylo can never be Vader. He certainly wants to be Vader. He wants so badly to be this all-powerful, unfeeling villain, but that's just not who he is beneath the artifice he puts on. No matter how much he wants to be Vader, he won't ever succeed in being something he's not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"I remember the initial conversations about having things 'skinned'," Driver recalls, "peeling away layers to evolve into other people, and the person Kylo's pretending to be on the outside is not who he is. He's a vulnerable kid who doesn't know where to put his energy, but when he puts his mask on, suddenly, he's playing a role. JJ had that idea initially and I think Rian took it to the next level."

The mask is coming off for good. We're going to meet the person behind it, the lonely, vulnerable kid who doesn't know where he belongs. The role he's been trying in vain to emulate for years is being stripped away. The death of the Kylo Ren persona. Rian said he doesn't see the point of delving into Kylo's psyche or in trying to understand him if all we're going to learn is that he's just an evil bad guy who needs to be killed. I don't expect Kylo to start fighting on behalf of the resistance in TLJ, but I certainly believe he'll make some selfless choices on behalf of his mother and Rey, and that everybody will be rooting for him as the only Skywalker heir by the end.

ZioRen wrote:Quotes like those are the only things that make me doubt Kylo's redemption in any way. While many things point at Kylo's eventual redemption, the things about the "dark side also awakening" and the emphasis on wanting to see an antagonist starting at a place of doubt suggest a storyline where we see a character evolve into a more complete villain.

It makes my head hurt to think too hard about it, so I tend to just go with my gut on this matter and what will be, will be.

@ZioRen

It all depends on Rian’s understanding of the force. Dark side doesn’t have to equate to evil . In fact, what does it mean to be on the light side of the force? Luke is a light sider but he isn’t saint, whatever the reason,he killed people.

ZioRen wrote:Quotes like those are the only things that make me doubt Kylo's redemption in any way. While many things point at Kylo's eventual redemption, the things about the "dark side also awakening" and the emphasis on wanting to see an antagonist starting at a place of doubt suggest a storyline where we see a character evolve into a more complete villain.

It makes my head hurt to think too hard about it, so I tend to just go with my gut on this matter and what will be, will be.

@ZioRen

I know what you mean sometimes, but at the end of the day, Kylo becoming a fully committed villain would require him to lose a huge part of his character (the conflict and call to the light) because I don't see how he can ever fully commit to the dark side if he's still conflicted. Such an outcome also disregards Han's sacrifice and Leia's words about there still being good in him.

I think about what Kylo becoming a full and committed villain would look like in the scope of the entire saga and it sounds so tragic. It would mean  Leia's only child is lost despite Han's loving sacrifice. Not to mention that it returns the Skywalkers back to the dark side, unless Rey is a Skywalker too which I doubt as it removes all the stakes and tension from the story.

I think he could end up "in between," never fully light or dark, but both, which requires him to accept his lightness, which he currently tries to stifle. That would make much more sense than a full dark villain.

ZioRen wrote:Quotes like those are the only things that make me doubt Kylo's redemption in any way. While many things point at Kylo's eventual redemption, the things about the "dark side also awakening" and the emphasis on wanting to see an antagonist starting at a place of doubt suggest a storyline where we see a character evolve into a more complete villain.

It makes my head hurt to think too hard about it, so I tend to just go with my gut on this matter and what will be, will be.

@ZioRen

"More complete villain" storyline could happen in a different series, sure, but in the optimistic, good-conquers-evil Star Wars? Nah. This is not Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones.

ZioRen wrote:Some info on BB-9E! We can officially throw out the idea that he's Kylo's sidekick droid. And apparently they thought of him as a 'he'.

http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/28/star-wars-last-jedi-bb-9e/

This part is interesting!

But while BB-8 often pairs with X-wing pilot Poe Dameron, or rolls with Finn and Rose Tico on their mission to the casino world of Canto Bight, BB-9E is a relative loner.

Still, the two droids will have a moment of conflict in The Last Jedi. And their color schemes are a bit of an homage to the orange and white flight suit of an old-school X-wing pilot and the black, life-sustaining armor of a Sith Lord. “There’s a lovely moment between BB-8 and BB-9E, which tells that sort of parallel story of Vader and Luke,” Scanlan promises.

@ZioRen
BB-9E redemption arc confirmed? Or is he going to zap off BB-8's little "thumbs up" flame ala Luke's hand in ESB? I'm so excited to watch these two interact, you have no idea.

Anyway, nobody's words about Kylo concern me, to be honest. The truth that people often seem to forget is we're not dealing with one more part of the story, we're dealing with two. There's no way Kylo's emerging from VIII on the side of the light and the Resistance. I can see his alignment landing on Rey, though.

Kylo wants to be fully evil, he wants the conflict gone -- that was why he killed his father. He wants to be Darth Vader, supreme vision of self-control. Do you really think his arc is going to be about getting everything he wants, overcoming conflict (how???) and disgracing his father's sacrifice? Kind of a weird arc if you ask me. Not just tragic, but pretty WTF for SW. We're not watching some rated R shock-value flick here, we're watching a space opera for families at Christmastime.

Antis/anti-Kylos love to talk about how they want him to become this super bad villain, but Kylo can never be a Big Bad for the same reason Spike could never be one in Buffy. He's subservient. Perhaps reluctantly, but still subservient to a cause. He sees himself as a tool for a cause and is only effective in actual battle. He's no leader. He's emotional and impetuous. He could never sit in a chair and order around Hux and Phasma and the other FO troops.

End of the day, if killing his father didn't put an end to his conflict or stop the light from calling to him, nothing can.

MyOnlyHope wrote:Eh, I think the point is simply that Kylo can never be Vader. He certainly wants to be Vader. He wants so badly to be this all-powerful, unfeeling villain, but that's just not who he is beneath the artifice he puts on. No matter how much he wants to be Vader, he won't ever succeed in being something he's not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"I remember the initial conversations about having things 'skinned'," Driver recalls, "peeling away layers to evolve into other people, and the person Kylo's pretending to be on the outside is not who he is. He's a vulnerable kid who doesn't know where to put his energy, but when he puts his mask on, suddenly, he's playing a role. JJ had that idea initially and I think Rian took it to the next level."

The mask is coming off for good. We're going to meet the person behind it, the lonely, vulnerable kid who doesn't know where he belongs. The role he's been trying in vain to emulate for years is being stripped away. The death of the Kylo Ren persona. Rian said he doesn't see the point of delving into Kylo's psyche or in trying to understand him if all we're going to learn is that he's just an evil bad guy who needs to be killed. I don't expect Kylo to start fighting on behalf of the resistance in TLJ, but I certainly believe he'll make some selfless choices on behalf of his mother and Rey, and that everybody will be rooting for him as the only Skywalker heir by the end.

@MyOnlyHope

This is so perfectly put! It definitely makes the puzzle pieces that we've already been given come together.

so now we have proof that Luke comes in tree cave after Rey

Anakin Skywalker wrote:so now we have proof that Luke comes in tree cave after Rey

@Anakin Skywalker

Hmm, rather Georgia O'Keeffe-ian

LadyHa wrote:

Anakin Skywalker wrote:so now we have proof that Luke comes in tree cave after Rey

@Anakin Skywalker

Hmm, rather Georgia O'Keeffe-ian

@LadyHa

Haha! I thought more of Judy Chicago, but O'Keeffe tends to be more subtle than the in-your-face Chicago, so yeah... O'Keeffe-ian it is.

All the Freudian imagery in this one picture. Luke coming back into the womb of the Force.

More pics from Empire, some with incredible quality. And did we already see that pic of Leia?

HD Pics: