The Last Jedi General Discussion

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Reylo1992
Rian literally said:
“The important thing was not just to strengthen him, but to highlight the matter of “who” he actually is. He is not someone who is completely evil; the armour which he wraps himself in has cracks. I found one of those cracks and opened it up. Through this work, I hoped to understand him.”

As long as you don't assume Kylo heel-face-turns at the beginning or middle of the film, there's nothing to be unsettled about in Kylo leading stormtroopers on Crait. If anything all it does is call into question the Rey/Kylo vs. Praetorian guards on Supremacy headcanon, but as always everything makes sense when you realize that the "hand" scene is Kylo at the end, not Kylo in the middle, not Kylo at the beginning, not Kylo on Ahch-To, but Kylo in Act III closer to the end.

A lot of steps are missing, but it goes like this, imo:



It's like the stages of grief. We saw denial at the end of TFA, he quickly enters "anger". He'll spend a lot of time in the "anger" stage before moving on to the bargaining stage, the depression stage and finally the acceptance stage.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I understand your point. Yet, I don't think it rules out any possibility as "shocking fate". I absolutely agree with you about his character journey. I have no doubt that 90% of the movie, he will be on redemption path, going from anger to depression and finally acceptance as you point out. And Rian will crack the armor to show the audience that he is indeed not the real villain in that story.

Now, I would complete your analysis by pointing out that we don't know what is going on exactly in the last stage of the movie. And more important, we don't know what Snoke is up with this huge agenda and how he intends to use Ben (and Rey) to fulfill it. IMO one misses an important point there if one think that Snoke will let Ben throw him away that easily.  He is not gonna let his "masterpiece" go away like that after spending 30 years to fashion him for his huge agenda. So my point ain't: Kylo is gonna become eviilllerrr and eviiilleerr!!! My point is : Ben's redemption ain't only up to him. He may very well take the decision to defect and even face Snoke in Act III. It doesn't mean that Snoke won't manage to fulfill his huge agenda by using him. I would be extremely surprise if in 30 years they wouldn't have forged a Force Bond whose consequences can be scary.

In the end, the most important for Disney/LF is to have the audience emphasizing with Ben, a generally unbeloved character that so many people think unredeemable although he is supposed to be the Prince(ss) in that story. There are many different ways you can do this: the most important is the goal Disney/Lucas Film wants to reach.

So the question is how Disney/Lucasfilm will make the audience go from...

This after The Force Awakens...

GA: How dare he! What an emo, ugly, weak villain. And an abuser, a traitor, a murderer who support a Nazi organization.   He must pay for his crimes and die unreedeemed by the end of the ST! I am never gonna forgive him for killing his father. No way he is the bearer of the great Skywalker legacy! “


Meanwhile preparing The Last Jedi...

Disney/ Lucas Film: S***! We went too far by making Ben kill his father! But he is our Disney Prince. Now, we must find a way to make his redemption and Reylo tolerable for the GA!


Rian Johnson




To this in Episode 9...

GA:


If I were Disney/Lucasfilm, I would go that road whatever Ben state is by the end of TLJ (possession, near-death state, etc...)

There is a lot of Shakespearian and Greek tragic dimension in the franchise. And personally I love the idea to have a character making the right choice, being on redemption path and going down precisely when he is about to come out from his tunnel. That's why, I love the idea of Ben "falling" against his own will after making it clear that he won't let himself used by Snoke anymore.

So how would you make the audience go from thistoward Ben in TFA...

...to this in Episode 9

spacebaby45678 wrote:@reylo1992

RJ said:
“The important thing was not just to strengthen him, but to highlight the matter of “who” he actually is. He is not someone who is completely evil; the armour which he wraps himself in has cracks. I found one of those cracks and opened it up. Through this work, I hoped to understand him.”

Do you know which character was literally all armor in AOTC? General Greivious... ha ha! And do you know who found the crack and ripped it open? Obi Wan and do you know what was inside Grievious, basically the only thing left? His heart 



So I came to the Jack of Heart that indeed holds a very specific meaning in comparison to other cards. The Jack of Hearts also called the "Christi" card is associated with the "Christi spirit of sacrificial love"

@spacebaby45678

Nice combination!

Except that Rey will resonate with Kylo's heart instead of destroying it, right?

@reylo1992

Well geez, I hope so...

So, months ago I wrote this short meta on my blog. I’ve modified my opinions on several things, but I’m linking it because I still feel strongly that 1) Kylo is as bad as he’s going to get right now (he’s done his worst with the murder of Han) and that 2) he’s probably going to be as “good” or as “light” as he’s going to get by the end of this movie.

I think the most obvious way for him to do that would be to not kill Leia or seriously hurt any of our protagonists, to suffer at the hands of Snoke in some way, and to potentially save the likes of Rey, Finn, or Poe. If he’s well and truly defected, as I say in my blog post, then that allows movie 9 to focus more tightly on destroying the First Order, in whatever form that might take.

I’m sure someone has already suggested this, but with the film’s emphasis on balance, what if the falling embers in the scene where Kylo extends his hand are because Rey, in a scene reminiscent of a flashback of Kylo inadvertently destroying the academy, has inadvertently blown something up by losing control of her rawpowah? That would fit in with balance— not him inviting her to the Dark side, not him accepting the Light side, but just understanding and empathy.

Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

reylo1992 wrote:Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

@reylo1992

They have to just be trolling or something. No one is that ridiculous. No one.

Right?

Crickets....

I mourn for the future.

PalmettoBlue wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

@reylo1992

They have to just be trolling or something. No one is that ridiculous. No one.

Right?

Crickets....

I mourn for the future.

@PalmettoBlue

Wait, I just listened to MSW last podcast, Jason thinks Kylo is reaching out to Luke in a gesture of peace 

spacebaby45678 wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

@reylo1992

They have to just be trolling or something. No one is that ridiculous. No one.

Right?

Crickets....

I mourn for the future.

@PalmettoBlue

Wait, I just listened to MSW last podcast, Jason thinks Kylo is reaching out to Luke in a gesture of peace 

@spacebaby45678

No. What? Seriously?
I cannot even.
I’ve lost the ability to can.

THIS DRIVES ME CRAZY. I listen to a lot of different podcasts and I just can't even.... I totally understand if people don't like Kylo because he killed their "childhood" hero. I get if they don't like romance or the thought of Kylo/Rey together. That is their right and everyone approaches Star Wars from a different point of view of what they like to watch. It just amazes me that the people in the more well know podcasts read the articles of what the director's, producers and actor's say and don't want to talk about or acknowledge the Reylo relationship in any form. I find that most of the podcasters do seem to think that Rey is probably not related to anyone we know, I guess they are afraid of losing viewers.

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:THIS DRIVES ME CRAZY. I listen to a lot of different podcasts and I just can't even.... I totally understand if people don't like Kylo because he killed their "childhood" hero. I get if they don't like romance or the thought of Kylo/Rey together. That is their right and everyone approaches Star Wars from a different point of view of what they like to watch. It just amazes me that the people in the more well know podcasts read the articles of what the director's, producers and actor's say and don't want to talk about or acknowledge the Reylo relationship in any form. I find that most of the podcasters do seem to think that Rey is probably not related to anyone we know, I guess they are afraid of losing viewers.

@bashfulblueeyes3

This. To even the average viewer, it should be obvious who Kylo is in fact reaching out to in that scene. The gesture itself has romantic subtext, like asking a girl to dance. So why in the HELL would he be reaching out to his uncle?

I’m fairly certain Jason Ward and company know what’s happening- they just don’t want to come out and say it in fear of losing listeners. The same thing happened before when they said Luke had a 30 second cameo with no lines at the end of TFA. People rioted against them and they received all kinds of crazy threats.

So yeah, I think it is less of MSW being obtuse and more about protecting themselves. It’s a crying shame, if you think about it.

If they actually just look at Kylo's face, it is not the same face I would be making to my Uncle nor would I hold my hand out the same way.....

IoJovi wrote:

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:THIS DRIVES ME CRAZY. I listen to a lot of different podcasts and I just can't even.... I totally understand if people don't like Kylo because he killed their "childhood" hero. I get if they don't like romance or the thought of Kylo/Rey together. That is their right and everyone approaches Star Wars from a different point of view of what they like to watch. It just amazes me that the people in the more well know podcasts read the articles of what the director's, producers and actor's say and don't want to talk about or acknowledge the Reylo relationship in any form. I find that most of the podcasters do seem to think that Rey is probably not related to anyone we know, I guess they are afraid of losing viewers.

@bashfulblueeyes3

This. To even the average viewer, it should be obvious who Kylo is in fact reaching out to in that scene. The gesture itself has romantic subtext, like asking a girl to dance. So why in the HELL would he be reaching out to his uncle?

I’m fairly certain Jason Ward and company know what’s happening- they just don’t want to come out and say it in fear of losing listeners. The same thing happened before when they said Luke had a 30 second cameo with no lines at the end of TFA. People rioted against them and they received all kinds of crazy threats.

So yeah, I think it is less of MSW being obtuse and more about protecting themselves. It’s a crying shame, if you think about it.

@IoJovi

At the very least, Jason doesn't want to get sent to the couch by his wife.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:THIS DRIVES ME CRAZY. I listen to a lot of different podcasts and I just can't even.... I totally understand if people don't like Kylo because he killed their "childhood" hero. I get if they don't like romance or the thought of Kylo/Rey together. That is their right and everyone approaches Star Wars from a different point of view of what they like to watch. It just amazes me that the people in the more well know podcasts read the articles of what the director's, producers and actor's say and don't want to talk about or acknowledge the Reylo relationship in any form. I find that most of the podcasters do seem to think that Rey is probably not related to anyone we know, I guess they are afraid of losing viewers.

@bashfulblueeyes3

This. To even the average viewer, it should be obvious who Kylo is in fact reaching out to in that scene. The gesture itself has romantic subtext, like asking a girl to dance. So why in the HELL would he be reaching out to his uncle?

I’m fairly certain Jason Ward and company know what’s happening- they just don’t want to come out and say it in fear of losing listeners. The same thing happened before when they said Luke had a 30 second cameo with no lines at the end of TFA. People rioted against them and they received all kinds of crazy threats.

So yeah, I think it is less of MSW being obtuse and more about protecting themselves. It’s a crying shame, if you think about it.

@IoJovi

At the very least, Jason doesn't want to get sent to the couch by his wife.

@ISeeAnIsland

Oh that literally explains everything - I had forgotten about hat very specific piece. It’s one thing to p*ss off your viewers with news they might not be ready to hear. But you’re wife? Oh that is something else entirely...

They're ignoring that other marketing, Japanese I believe, pretty much confirmed that he's reaching out to Rey. Even if you didn't think of it in a Reylo lens, which it doesn't have to be, it feels willfully dense to really think he's making the gesture to anyone but Rey.

Seriously, why are people so adamantly denying that a hero and villain relationship could be more complicated in frigging STAR WARS? It just didn't seem to cross most people's minds before the trailer and I find it baffling. And even now that they've made it as obvious as possible, some are STILL thinking it must be something, anything else.

ZioRen wrote:They're ignoring that other marketing, Japanese I believe, pretty much confirmed that he's reaching out to Rey. Even if you didn't think of it in a Reylo lens, which it doesn't have to be, it feels willfully dense to really think he's making the gesture to anyone but Rey.

Seriously, why are people so adamantly denying that a hero and villain relationship could be more complicated in frigging STAR WARS? It just didn't seem to cross most people's minds before the trailer and I find it baffling. And even now that they've made it as obvious as possible, some are STILL thinking it must be something, anything else.

@ZioRen

It really is frustrating. Sigh... December 15th can´t come soon enough!

I mean, why would you look at your uncle with that romantic gaze?

reylo1992 wrote:Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

@reylo1992

How could we have missed this epic romantic pairing

Honestly, that amaze me how people either are blind or willingly choose to be blind regarding Reylo.

I mean, in any other movie, a dark warlord carrying a woman in his arms from their first encounter (in the woods) would ring the bell immediately. I wouldn't say that it was this moment in particular that made me ship Reylo immediately but come on! after paying a little attention, it's so obvious! I am sure that if I would show this image to any person unaware of the context, nobody would tell me that  Hae Soo and Wang So are cousins/siblings, right?

So why the hell do people don't ask themselves if - maybe, possibly, why not - they could come to the same conclusion with this?

The same applies to this:


And to this...


Come on, guys!  Just a little effort!

I find it even more incredible that beyond the many shocked reactions we got with the trailer, I heard absolutely no one (except Reylo shippers themselves) mentioning the possibility of Reylo. The most of the time, people said: Oh s***! Rey is gonna turn to the DS". A very few people said: "Oh maybe Kylo turns to the LS". But I heard no one mentioning the possibility of a romance although I am pretty sure that people were unsettled because they perceived the romantic vibe but thought it was out of place.

That's even more incredible when you think about the amount of byronic heroes who get a redemption arc and romantically involved despite their actions and still encounter no big opposition from the fandom. Let's take the example of Wang So once again:
- Kills an entire group of people

Check!
- Kills a wise figure:?:

Check! (sounds familiar?)
-Kills a family member in front of the girl:?:

Check! (sounds familiar?)

He was actually more backlashed for kissing the girl the first time without her consent because he was desperate by her sudden rejection than for killing people in the drama:



Still when they finally got romantically involved:


And when the drama came to the end:

My ship...

So the denial syndrome - whether people choose to ignore the hints or simply don't draw conclusions from these hints - is something that I find pretty fascinating when it comes to Reylo. I am sure that it would be interesting to have someone making a psychology dissertation on that topic.

panki wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

@reylo1992

How could we have missed this epic romantic pairing

@panki

*singing loudly....and tunelessly

Blinded by the light (off Phasma’s helmet)
Cut loose like a deuce, another runner in the night
Blinded by the light (off Phasma’s helmet)
Finn cut off her arm, but she’ll make it alright

I just showed off my age that I have actually heard the song “Blinded By the Light” by Springsteen

Regardless, the deliberate refusal to see what is quite literally in front of their faces is just, well, beyond my capacity. I was late to the party - really late. June/July 2017 late, but I think the trailer would have jolted me out of any complacency if I hadn’t gotten an alarm this past summer.

This is where Reylos in particular have the edge - someone said it here - Reylos have been willing to look at the evidence and modify head canons and theories. Ward, et al are struggling to squeeze evidence into their view, and it’s not working.

Bless.

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

@reylo1992

How could we have missed this epic romantic pairing

@panki

*singing loudly....and tunelessly

Blinded by the light (off Phasma’s helmet)
Cut loose like a deuce, another runner in the night
Blinded by the light (off Phasma’s helmet)
Finn cut off her arm, but she’ll make it alright

I just showed off my age that I have actually heard the song “Blinded By the Light” by Springsteen

Regardless, the deliberate refusal to see what is quite literally in front of their faces is just, well, beyond my capacity. I was late to the party - really late. June/July 2017 late, but I think the trailer would have jolted me out of any complacency if I hadn’t gotten an alarm this past summer.

This is where Reylos in particular have the edge - someone said it here - Reylos have been willing to look at the evidence and modify head canons and theories. Ward, et al are struggling to squeeze evidence into their view, and it’s not working.

Bless.

@PalmettoBlue

Exactly! That is why I really hope that the Reylo situation in TLJ and IX is not subtle anymore. They need to go big or go home! That seems to be the only way these blind SW fans will finally get it.

tukicarreno wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:

panki wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:Guys! Guys!


We were wrong all along!
https://unapologeticreylotrash.tumblr.com/post/167415651670/rey-would-never-ask-kylo-for-help-and-to-show-her

Actually, Kylo is giving his hand to Phasma!

   

@reylo1992

How could we have missed this epic romantic pairing

@panki

*singing loudly....and tunelessly

Blinded by the light (off Phasma’s helmet)
Cut loose like a deuce, another runner in the night
Blinded by the light (off Phasma’s helmet)
Finn cut off her arm, but she’ll make it alright

I just showed off my age that I have actually heard the song “Blinded By the Light” by Springsteen

Regardless, the deliberate refusal to see what is quite literally in front of their faces is just, well, beyond my capacity. I was late to the party - really late. June/July 2017 late, but I think the trailer would have jolted me out of any complacency if I hadn’t gotten an alarm this past summer.

This is where Reylos in particular have the edge - someone said it here - Reylos have been willing to look at the evidence and modify head canons and theories. Ward, et al are struggling to squeeze evidence into their view, and it’s not working.

Bless.

@PalmettoBlue

Exactly! That is why I really hope that the Reylo situation in TLJ and IX is not subtle anymore. They need to go big or go home! That seems to be the only way these blind SW fans will finally get it.

@tukicarreno

I want to see the looks on their faces. I wonder what the about-face will look like on MSW. Are they going to try to say: We called this? Or will they double down on "misdirection?" As in - it's all a front - we'll get the real story in 9?

TLJ ice cream:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-10/star-wars-last-jedi-ice-cream-hits-with-butter-cake-fudge-swirls

Here's the interesting part (bolded part -- my emphasis):

With his three flavors, Smith created a sensory experience. “The First Order,” which Smith describes as pure, monolithic evil—the bad guys—is pure salted dark chocolate ice cream (with Guittard cocoa powder and 72% chocolate pieces). “The Resistance” is brown sugar vanilla bean ice cream (because brown is the color of the uniforms) and chunks of red velvet, ooey-gooey butter cake, toffee pieces, and mini-marshmallows.

“The Force,” a sweet cream ice cream (representing the light side), has swirls of chocolate fudge (the dark side) plus white and dark chocolate Valrhona pearls, which is about the balance of the force, the light and the dark. “Those three things are all different: chewy, scrunchy and squishy. It’s a nice counterpoint to the purity of the evil in the First Order,” says Smith.

ETA: Oops--I meant to post this in the TLJ: General Discussion thread. Mods, feel free to move...

ISeeAnIsland wrote:TLJ ice cream:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-10/star-wars-last-jedi-ice-cream-hits-with-butter-cake-fudge-swirls

Here's the interesting part (bolded part -- my emphasis):

With his three flavors, Smith created a sensory experience. “The First Order,” which Smith describes as pure, monolithic evil—the bad guys—is pure salted dark chocolate ice cream (with Guittard cocoa powder and 72% chocolate pieces). “The Resistance” is brown sugar vanilla bean ice cream (because brown is the color of the uniforms) and chunks of red velvet, ooey-gooey butter cake, toffee pieces, and mini-marshmallows.

“The Force,” a sweet cream ice cream (representing the light side), has swirls of chocolate fudge (the dark side) plus white and dark chocolate Valrhona pearls, which is about the balance of the force, the light and the dark. “Those three things are all different: chewy, scrunchy and squishy. It’s a nice counterpoint to the purity of the evil in the First Order,” says Smith.

@ISeeAnIsland

Interesting!

I also had to go to thto fridge and get some of my salted caramel ice cream because I was well, hungry...

ISeeAnIsland wrote:TLJ ice cream:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-10/star-wars-last-jedi-ice-cream-hits-with-butter-cake-fudge-swirls

Here's the interesting part (bolded part -- my emphasis):

With his three flavors, Smith created a sensory experience. “The First Order,” which Smith describes as pure, monolithic evil—the bad guys—is pure salted dark chocolate ice cream (with Guittard cocoa powder and 72% chocolate pieces). “The Resistance” is brown sugar vanilla bean ice cream (because brown is the color of the uniforms) and chunks of red velvet, ooey-gooey butter cake, toffee pieces, and mini-marshmallows.

“The Force,” a sweet cream ice cream (representing the light side), has swirls of chocolate fudge (the dark side) plus white and dark chocolate Valrhona pearls, which is about the balance of the force, the light and the dark. “Those three things are all different: chewy, scrunchy and squishy. It’s a nice counterpoint to the purity of the evil in the First Order,” says Smith.

@ISeeAnIsland

I really am liking some of these upscale and more thoughtful tie-ins that Disney is tapping into. Stuff like this shows more creativity and touches on something deeper than a Kylo Ren cereal box, lol.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:TLJ ice cream:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-10/star-wars-last-jedi-ice-cream-hits-with-butter-cake-fudge-swirls

Here's the interesting part (bolded part -- my emphasis):

With his three flavors, Smith created a sensory experience. “The First Order,” which Smith describes as pure, monolithic evil—the bad guys—is pure salted dark chocolate ice cream (with Guittard cocoa powder and 72% chocolate pieces). “The Resistance” is brown sugar vanilla bean ice cream (because brown is the color of the uniforms) and chunks of red velvet, ooey-gooey butter cake, toffee pieces, and mini-marshmallows.

“The Force,” a sweet cream ice cream (representing the light side), has swirls of chocolate fudge (the dark side) plus white and dark chocolate Valrhona pearls, which is about the balance of the force, the light and the dark. “Those three things are all different: chewy, scrunchy and squishy. It’s a nice counterpoint to the purity of the evil in the First Order,” says Smith.

@ISeeAnIsland

I really am liking some of these upscale and more thoughtful tie-ins that Disney is tapping into. Stuff like this shows more creativity and touches on something deeper than a Kylo Ren cereal box, lol.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, I'm a total sucker for this type of stuff. I hope they do more unique and creative SW themed product tie ins.