Official TROS Spoilers discussion

From what I've read, the gratitude bit is from Ben's POV. Not that it makes it any good, but this is kind of a thing in the whole book. A few paragraphs down that moment, the author writes that Rey feels like her other half she waited for her entire life is ripped away from her, and then tries to spin it as a positive thing

I also get why people are upset, but the sad truth is that the word "love" was not uttered once in the ST (I checked), be it between friends, relatives or lovers. And they also deliberately wrote Rey in TROS as this vessel of purity and virginity, so no way they'd write her having lustful/passionate thoughts. She's an ascetic Jedi monk because they didn't want to offend the delicate sensibilities of all the men who project onto Rey their ideal of the perfect daughter.

I just went back and re-read the paragraph containing the term gratitude, and you're correct, it's from Ben's point of view.

There are simply zero good reasons to call any epic kiss as "kiss of something" from any POV unless you want to deliver loud and clear message that kiss shouldn't be interpreted in classic obvious way. That's why there are famous "kisses of hate", "kisses of life", "kisses of rage", because in those cases there is no pure romantic (and obvious) foundation for such act, they serve another function.

I understand that many people will disagree, but IMO this description "kiss of gratitude" is the worst thing the writer should have done with the kiss. Even just writing "she/he kissed her/him" is better, because it's completely open to interpretation regarding characters' feelings. Giving such cheap but clear description to epic kiss - after one person gave up life for another person - is downplaying the importance of whole relationship between characters. Wonder of wonders, indeed, when the writer supports Rey's characterisation as pure robotic virgin Madonna. Riddley's acting was way more nuanced.

unicorn wrote:

OrionStars wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Sweet, but way too depressing.
I can't read it, sorry.

And I'm sorry but 'Ben gives Rey back to the galaxy to atone for the evil he'd done'.....oh please. Once again, pure and worthy Rey. Rey is too good for mortal man. She belongs to the galaxy. Nothing and no one else is good enough for her.
Despite the fact that this paragon of virtue:
Enjoys shooting down TIES. Piloted by brainwashed child soldiers like her friend Finn. See TLJ.
Showed a sadistic pleasure in tormenting her adversary by playing with him like a cat does with its prey. Only a cat doesn't realise it's causing pain to its victim. See TFA.
Tried to beat up an old man. From behind. See TLJ.
Responded to a rather pathetic request to rule the galaxy with Kylo, who'd just saved her life - twice - by reaching for a weapon. See TLJ.
Tried to kill him twice - once when he was unarmed. See TROS.
Blew up a ship piloted by child soldiers like her friend. See TROS.

Touching that Ben's final scene is, it only cements what a Mary Sue Rey is now. Not a human being but a symbol. And I have to admit I really really hate that 'she could never love Kylo Ren' line.

Maybe Ben got off lightly, he would have always been part Kylo, because Kylo is the armour he hid behind because he'd been abused. If Rey refused to love that part of him, he was better off without her.

@motherofpearl1


Perhaps it's just a coincidence but I've seen internet fanboys said Rey is a symbol for women to learn and a role model for little girls because she represents an ideal of a pure, naivete, childlike, virginal heroine than prefer, it was the grossest sith that I've ever seen. Yikes

@OrionStars
         
I´m SO FED UP with this bullsh*t.

And this nonsense with "Rey was always one half of a dyad in the force." How does this work, when the other "half" is roundabout ten years older? Lived this older half these ten years only half a life, with only half a soul? Not really thought through, we have this, no? Have they even READ their own nonsense before making a movie out of it?
This whole movie only contains of retconnings and hollow phrases which make no sense.

I will not buy the novel anyway. I´m slowly getting over this trash of a movie, I´m just not interested in something that will only stir my sadness and anger again by remembering this trash. Inconsequential and lukewarm "postmortem" attempts to rectify a bad movie. No thanks.

@unicorn

Yeah, it's really terrible, it's 2020 and they still think women's worth depends on their virginity and pureness, those men pretend to play along with feminism's propaganda to get what they want and to pressure the media into promoting their ideal of women just because men prefer pure, virgin girls, the worst sith is they want little girls to live up to that kind of "ideal woman". Rey probably will have no chance to get out of the mess because she's an icon who represents what men want to teach women.

I'm not even saying Ben's POV was a "good reason" or anything, just that the writing simply doesn't care about portraying things in any logical or satisfying way, and it doesn't apply just to the kiss. I don't really care how they describe it and even if she wrote "the kiss is pure love and passion" it would still be crap because the story itself doesn't know/want to explore Rey and Kylo's bond, that's why it's so schizophrenic.

The book also makes the kiss sound completely one-sided since Ben doesn’t seem to reciprocate at all even though it’s written from his perspective.

It reminds me of the end of the TLJ book, where it said Rey had no compassion in her expression, but it was also from Ben's POV, and also untrue, at least long term. But that kind of ambiguity doesn't seem fitting for an end.

I've seen such a wide range of reactions about this scene and the end, from hate/disgust to thinking it's an improvement and providing long needed closure. But people have been so bad to the author over this, everyone from fans to the SW books account to Chuck Wendig have been telling people to cool it. I get why people are mad, but tagging or commenting to creators to say negative or passive aggressive things is childish. The book isnt even out for 2+ weeks.

Piper Maru wrote:I also get why people are upset, but the sad truth is that the word "love" was not uttered once in the ST (I checked), be it between friends, relatives or lovers. And they also deliberately wrote Rey in TROS as this vessel of purity and virginity, so no way they'd write her having lustful/passionate thoughts. She's an ascetic Jedi monk because they didn't want to offend the delicate sensibilities of all the men who project onto Rey their ideal of the perfect daughter.

@Piper Maru

That plus, "I want my daughter to have Star Wars as part of her childhood because it meant so much to me growing up" say men who masturbated to the image of Slave Leia probably multiple times a day.

Both the movie and the novel are like the legacy saber tug of war in TLJ (which JJ so ridiculously tried to replicate), there were different ideas/groups working on this project. LFL never came to a consensus about "this is the story we're telling and this is who each character is" because different people (audience and creatives) had different opinions. So LFL made the decision to play to all sides at the end to avoid further controversy. The problem being that when you sell an audience, especially new audience members, on a cohesive story that's supposed to drop breadcrumbs along the way between movies and books, on telling a long overarching story, and then completely fumble/change things around in the final act, it shouldn't be surprising if there's confusion and disappointment. Even if you didn't like TLJ and/or don't care for Rian Johnson's films, the one thing he did which nobody involved with TRoS has done was put himself in the spotlight to explain his thoughts/reasons behind why he wrote what he wrote and how it ties back into the Saga. At most we've had various defensive/snippy comments from LFL employees on social media (which LOL remember the 2015 SWCC article in the NYT about how they cherish and cultivate personal relationships with their fans), word salad interviews from Terrio, the editor doing damage control and "don't think too hard about it," and one weird sorta passive aggressive joke from JJ while Rian was in the audience. Everything to do with the publishing titles is mishagas, starting with Terrio basically inserting himself into the Visual Dictionary, which apparently you need to read in order to understand half the movie (RIP Lando's missing daughter) and the various digs at characters like Holdo, how Rey is happier being a desert hermit than someplace green. Or the entire business of accidentally early releasing the Art of book in Korea and then trying to recall/destroy those copies because it had production artwork and details which were scrapped in the last minute dash to reshoot and change things around. The novel sounds equally as disappointing and confusing, but mostly more of the face saving/damage control. Because you can't follow this studio/productions for the past 4-5 years and not notice that something went very wrong in the past 18 months.

It's too bad though. Rae Carson's Most Wanted for Solo is a good novel and the relationship/romance between Han and Qi'ra is what you would've expected for Rey and Ben given TLJ and Solo's plots and themes. Pour one out thought for Jason Fry's novel for TLJ and Claudia Grey's Bloodline, because those really were the best out of the entire project and told a story across media/films which did justice to the characters in both the ST and the OT. And unfortunately I'd bet that EKJ is clamoring in the wings to write a Rey stand along novel about her future Jedi adventures as a strong female character.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I'm also sick and tired of Kylo being accused of 'rape' because he invaded Rey's mind without her permission.
If this is the case, he also raped Poe, Rey raped the stormtroopers, and this beautiful scene here was also 'rape'.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHksDAB9vOo

@motherofpearl1

as well as every mindmeld scene from Trek...

I get Terrio's point about audience interpretation but there has to be a balance between that and the storytellers' intent.  At the end of three films the viewers should not have to wonder if a relationship was truly romantic or not; they should know, dammit.

It seemed to me that every time Terrio or JJ or that editor gal were asked a direct question about the film after it was out, they were all like [paraphrasing] "well, however you saw it, that's how it was!" I'm sick of their coyness and inability to take a stand on their own freaking creation.

@Sacrebleu they couldn't even come to a conclusion on what the larger story was that they were telling. Or at least it started out with deconstructing myths/stories, stolen/lost children, the impact on Leia's personal and political lives of learning who her biological father was, looking at the impact/role to be played by the characters who were further down the social hierarchies of that society and then the last chapter just pitched all of that out the window. Funny thing about that WGA talk that JJ, Kasdan, and Arndt did where Arndt talked about how Rey was out of the major Saga characters the one the furthest down the social ladder who therefore had the furthest personal/social distance to travel in her story. Which was also something they had in the new films about who Han was, including the background he came from and how it determines the choices he made at the end of his life. Hell, Kasdan said that the "I never thought there was this much green in the galaxy" moment was specifically about Han recognizing in Rey who he was and the life he had on Correlia before escaping and being parted from Qi'ra. Which both of their takes about who they saw Rey as being and how they wrote her, especially in relation to the other characters, makes this final movie characterization feel like a 180 degree turn.

Did someone see with their own eyes these "negative or passive aggressive things" tagged to Rae? Because I read about this in like 50 angry condescening tweets from Reylos to other Reylos, and then went to check it - and found TWO agressive responses, one of which was already deleted?

It looks like usual "behave yourself woman" mentality, already adopted by part of Reylos, unfortunately.

I don't need to hear how great Rae is as a person every five minute. I don't care as I am not picking up her as a new friend or a wife. You know who is also one of the nicest and greatest person in Hollywood? JJ Abrams.

I find the writing I have seen in TROS novelization trashy, amateur and completely soulless. Very similar to the style in which TROS was made by nice person JJ Abrams.

motherofpearl1 wrote:
One more thing......
I've been watching all Kylo's scenes on YouTube. And I noticed that Rey's real mother wore a blue hood - just like Mary mother of Jesus.

So.....it seems Rey is now Jesus, complete with resurrection. Except Jesus would have accepted Kylo Ren and actually mourned Ben Solo.

@motherofpearl1 - Do you have the link to these "just Kylo" vids on YT?

I thought Kylo was like a Jesus figure too. He took all the sins of his family and died giving Rey back to the galaxy.
Sooo they’re both...Jesus...?

This whole trilogy turned the saga into a hot mess because TROS just couldn’t hold up to the first two movies. I bet GL needs therapy now after seeing this mess.

Piper Maru wrote:From what I've read, the gratitude bit is from Ben's POV. Not that it makes it any good, but this is kind of a thing in the whole book. A few paragraphs down that moment, the author writes that Rey feels like her other half she waited for her entire life is ripped away from her, and then tries to spin it as a positive thing

I also get why people are upset, but the sad truth is that the word "love" was not uttered once in the ST (I checked), be it between friends, relatives or lovers. And they also deliberately wrote Rey in TROS as this vessel of purity and virginity, so no way they'd write her having lustful/passionate thoughts. She's an ascetic Jedi monk because they didn't want to offend the delicate sensibilities of all the men who project onto Rey their ideal of the perfect daughter.

@Piper Maru

Here's your L word in ST:



and it was completely discarded in TROS. what could message be?

vaderito wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:From what I've read, the gratitude bit is from Ben's POV. Not that it makes it any good, but this is kind of a thing in the whole book. A few paragraphs down that moment, the author writes that Rey feels like her other half she waited for her entire life is ripped away from her, and then tries to spin it as a positive thing

I also get why people are upset, but the sad truth is that the word "love" was not uttered once in the ST (I checked), be it between friends, relatives or lovers. And they also deliberately wrote Rey in TROS as this vessel of purity and virginity, so no way they'd write her having lustful/passionate thoughts. She's an ascetic Jedi monk because they didn't want to offend the delicate sensibilities of all the men who project onto Rey their ideal of the perfect daughter.

@Piper Maru

Here's your L word in ST:



and it was completely discarded in TROS. what could message be?

@vaderito

Yeah, and even in that scene, "love" was used in a very utilitarian context, deeply associated to the cause (Resistance) and the war. I meant more in a "I love you" way. Ben was going to say it to Han, but they cut it for the cute callback to ESB.

Very true. ST dropped the ball on romance. I think they got caught between "we want to have romance " and "but sites such as Mary Sue and their followers think first female Jedi should be a lone Jedi Goddess who needs no man". They never stopped looking over their shoulder and worrying what niche twitter group # 678 thinks. No wonder you have novelization where the writer breaks the fourth wall to convince twitter that everything is PC and no reason for outrage.

Here's a thought: Delete your twitter account and write the book you want to write.

But honestly, the messages of the film are muddled so it may be inevitable that the messages of the book are likewise muddled.

I don't believe this
https://www.idwpublishing.com/product/star-wars-adventures-1-2/

Do or don't, stop teasing. another World Between Worlds tease:

https://twitter.com/shelbylynnmarie/status/1234003306823004160

Mind you, it applies to Jedi voices. We can only speculate whether Ben was pulled in instead of becoming one with the Force but novelization doesn't confirm or deny it. It's just voices thing for now.

I suspect they're just toying with us now. Fact is, they chose to kill off their best character and the last Skywalker in canon - and Rae Carson's book cements it.
They expect fans to instead focus on the adventures of Saint Rey the Magnificent, the Deserving and the Unsullied. And the two dull men who trail in the wake of the Goddess.
They can, putting it mildly, get stuffed. At least as far as I'm concerned.

Ben is clearly dead IMO. He gave his lifeforce to Rey, she could feel his body growing cold, he faded into the Force. He'll always be with Rey in the way Yoda and Obi-Wan would always be with Luke. It doesn't seem ambiguous to me.

Yeah but it doesn’t mean he can’t be brought back via world between worlds as it’s happened before with lord momin and ahsoka . The world between worlds opens up huge possibilities. And if it works like Narnia’s wood between the worlds which Dave filoni has said directly he was inspired by then who knows where he will end up . In that characters disappear in one world only to reappear in another .

In that case, why are we so focused on Ben coming back? Rey can die pretty soon too, and they'll be reunited forever...

Sad isn't it, that they've turned a likeable sympathetic heroine into someone so full of herself she's become hateful.
I doubt very much Daisy signed up for this.

I was thinking of Rose's words...."we win by saving what we love, not killing what we hate."
Rey failed to do the first, and did the last.