Weak and foolish like his father - Who was Han Solo indeed?

While reading some of the posts you guys wrote on the subject of Kylo s relation to his father today.
I decided to open this topic because I somehow felt that the line "weak and foolish like his father" is more about young Ben being very much like Han in his personality.
So, I do wonder what s your opinion on who Han really was? A scruffy looking nerf herder, or easy going flyboy, or something much more interesting?

During SW Celebration panel Phil Lord and Chris Miller (directors of future Han Solo stand alone movie) shared some of their insight on Han:

"I think that's why we fall for that guy and we got so excited about making this movie," he added "This kind of dichotomy between this grouchy, seemingly cynical guy with the biggest heart in the galaxy. And to me that's a great thing to make a movie about."

source: http://www.moviefone.com/2016/07/19/6-things-we-know-for-sure-about-the-han-solo-movie/

When asked why Lord and Miller wanted to tell a Han Solo story, Lord said, "I relate to him. He doesn't want to do anything that he's told to do. When you tell him not to do something, it makes him want to do it more. He's very sarcastic. But at the end of the day, he’s unreasonably optimistic."

"He's this seemingly grumpy guy with the biggest heart in the galaxy," Miller added. "He's a maverick. He's a scoundrel. He's clever, but he's not smart. He wants to present himself as this cool, tough guy but in the end, he always does the right thing."

source: http://www.mtv.com/news/2906230/young-han-solo-alden-ehrenreich-makes-his-star-wars-debut/

I was really clueless in which section I was going to open this thread. If the mods think it is not the right place, feel free to move it elsewhere.

That is true but I think he never was like that with his son, maybe he never accepted his powers? Did he think he was different and treat him differently? He did have a big heart sacrificing himself though. When I heard "There's too much Vader in him" I felt for Ben, maybe it was put there just to make you think about a difficult relationship between them.

I do not think that Han did not accept Ben s powers, however I do believe that he was never capable to understand it fully.

Ok, Han has always been a favorite of mine, but...

He's a criminal. Much of his life was spent as a criminal. He is also self-centered, though in certain situations he can override that. I think he is an orphan. I see someone who had to use his wits to survive and could not afford to think much about the morality of his actions. He is snide and abrasive and enjoys antagonizing some people (Leia). I have mentioned elsewhere that I think he treated kids the way he treated droids. He thrives on adventure and excitement and maybe even danger. He would find a settled family life stifling.

Btw, how much time passed between ANH and ESB? And between ESB and RotJ?

And I don't see him being thrilled by fatherhood.

I have not read Bloodlines, but someone excerpted a few lines that described Leia realizing she was pregnant and then waiting about eleven days before (telling Han? Accepting it?). Makes me wonder if she considered terminating.

Slade wrote:And I don't see him being thrilled by fatherhood.

I have not read Bloodlines, but someone excerpted a few lines that described Leia realizing she was pregnant and then waiting about eleven days before (telling Han? Accepting it?). Makes me wonder if she considered terminating.

@Slade

I don't remember that part. I will have to look at it again.

"Weak and foolish" isn't an objective comment but only how Kylo sees Ben and Han. Question is what traits he found weak and foolish.

@vaderito I agree, and I interpreted it as Kylo insulting Han for his capacity for love. Kylo now seems to pride himself on how he doesn't let himself feel compassion, insisting that he doesn't feel it for either his father ("He means nothing to me") and Rey ("that inconsequential scavenger from Jakku"). When he says Ben was weak and foolish like Han, it sounds like he's saying I stopped myself from being emotional like you are, like I used to be.

It's another example of Ben lying to himself as he talks to other characters, pretending he doesn't feel love/compassion when he actually does feel that 'pull to the light' constantly, and it's tormenting him.

Slade wrote:Ok, Han has always been a favorite of mine, but...

He's a criminal. Much of his life was spent as a criminal. He is also self-centered, though in certain situations he can override that. I think he is an orphan. I see someone who had to use his wits to survive and could not afford to think much about the morality of his actions. He is snide and abrasive and enjoys antagonizing some people (Leia). I have mentioned elsewhere that I think he treated kids the way he treated droids. He thrives on adventure and excitement and maybe even danger. He would find a settled family life stifling.

Btw, how much time passed between ANH and ESB? And between ESB and RotJ?

@Slade

Han was brash and abrasive but when he cared for someone he wouldn't hesitate to back them up. He loved Chewie like a brother and before he was frozen in carbonite his thoughts was of Leia. When Chewie tried to escape to help him he told him to protect the princess. They were both in danger but he put her first, caring more about her than himself, in a life or death situation.

Slade wrote:Btw, how much time passed between ANH and ESB? And between ESB and RotJ?

@Slade

About 3 years between ANH and ESB.

Between 6 months and a year between ESB and ROTJ.

Armadeus wrote:

Slade wrote:Btw, how much time passed between ANH and ESB? And between ESB and RotJ?

@Slade

About 3 years between ANH and ESB.

Between 6 months and a year between ESB and ROTJ.

@Armadeus

So given that Han/Leia didn't go kiss kiss until ESB and the Han got frozen, they didn't have a lot of time to properly date/get to know each other without the posturing and peacocking prior to Kylo's arrival.

vaderito wrote:"Weak and foolish" isn't an objective comment but only how Kylo sees Ben and Han. Question is what traits he found weak and foolish.

@vaderito

Definitely.
I thought it would be interesting to see what Han s traits were considered by Kylo as such.

What s more: the oedipus motive was not touched for the first time in SW (the main theme in OT was exactly that), but unlike Luke whose struggle consisted in accepting of real father the way he is vs. the ideal image Luke had it as a child. Nothing to do with Vader/Anakin s personal traits, Luke did not him at all.

In the case of Han/Kylo everything is different, more related to Han s person and Kylo s subjective impression of it.

He was a sucker for a pretty girl

BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito I agree, and I interpreted it as Kylo insulting Han for his capacity for love. Kylo now seems to pride himself on how he doesn't let himself feel compassion, insisting that he doesn't feel it for either his father ("He means nothing to me") and Rey ("that inconsequential scavenger from Jakku"). When he says Ben was weak and foolish like Han, it sounds like he's saying I stopped myself from being emotional like you are, like I used to be.

It's another example of Ben lying to himself as he talks to other characters, pretending he doesn't feel love/compassion when he actually does feel that 'pull to the light' constantly, and it's tormenting him.

@BastilaBey That's how I interpreted it too. Kylo struggles with shutting out the light the entire movie and we especially see that during Rey's interrogation. Then "Han has the biggest heart in the galaxy" from the interview. I really think that's what it is. 

That, and his "personal interests". He got a lot of Han's impulsivity. Han "I'll see you in hell" Solo who rushes out into the cold to rescue his friend even though he'll probably freeze to death. Han "I'll get her out on the Falcon" Solo who rushes to grab Princess Leia as the Hoth base is falling apart around them. Kylo "Forget about the droid - we have what we need" Ren who bridal carries Rey aboard his Command Shuttle.

Slade wrote:Ok, Han has always been a favorite of mine, but...

He's a criminal. Much of his life was spent as a criminal. He is also self-centered, though in certain situations he can override that. I think he is an orphan. I see someone who had to use his wits to survive and could not afford to think much about the morality of his actions.  He is snide and abrasive and enjoys antagonizing some people (Leia). I have mentioned elsewhere that I think he treated kids the way he treated droids. He thrives on adventure and excitement and maybe even danger. He would find a settled family life stifling.

Btw, how much time passed between ANH and ESB? And between ESB and RotJ?

@Slade

I like Han precisely because he was a flawed character...but right now we can't know what exactly Kylo means by saying 'weak and foolish, like his father'....Han was a criminal, but his son made worse choices. Sounds like he despises his father or his ability to feel love and compassion, and blames Han for passing it on to him..

Mana wrote:

Slade wrote:Ok, Han has always been a favorite of mine, but...

He's a criminal. Much of his life was spent as a criminal. He is also self-centered, though in certain situations he can override that. I think he is an orphan. I see someone who had to use his wits to survive and could not afford to think much about the morality of his actions.  He is snide and abrasive and enjoys antagonizing some people (Leia). I have mentioned elsewhere that I think he treated kids the way he treated droids. He thrives on adventure and excitement and maybe even danger. He would find a settled family life stifling.

Btw, how much time passed between ANH and ESB? And between ESB and RotJ?

@Slade

I like Han precisely because he was a flawed character...but right now we can't know what exactly Kylo means by saying 'weak and foolish, like his father'....Han was a criminal, but his son made worse choices. Sounds like he despises his father or his ability to feel love and compassion, and blames Han for passing it on to him..

@Mana

Of course nobody knows (that is why we are speculating), and nobody is suggesting Han was more criminal than Kylo.

There was a reference about the relationship between parents and their kids in the book studied by Rian, I've read it in a thread, somewhere around here. How truly a kid is deep inside vs how parents want us to be. I'm pretty sure Han never accepted his powers or he was scared of them. He doesn't like this mumbo jumbo xD

MeadowofAshes wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito I agree, and I interpreted it as Kylo insulting Han for his capacity for love. Kylo now seems to pride himself on how he doesn't let himself feel compassion, insisting that he doesn't feel it for either his father ("He means nothing to me") and Rey ("that inconsequential scavenger from Jakku"). When he says Ben was weak and foolish like Han, it sounds like he's saying I stopped myself from being emotional like you are, like I used to be.

It's another example of Ben lying to himself as he talks to other characters, pretending he doesn't feel love/compassion when he actually does feel that 'pull to the light' constantly, and it's tormenting him.

@BastilaBey That's how I interpreted it too. Kylo struggles with shutting out the light the entire movie and we especially see that during Rey's interrogation. Then "Han has the biggest heart in the galaxy" from the interview. I really think that's what it is. 

That, and his "personal interests". He got a lot of Han's impulsivity. Han "I'll see you in hell" Solo who rushes out into the cold to rescue his friend even though he'll probably freeze to death. Han "I'll get her out on the Falcon" Solo who rushes to grab Princess Leia as the Hoth base is falling apart around them. Kylo "Forget about the droid - we have what we need" Ren who bridal carries Rey aboard his Command Shuttle.

@MeadowofAshes

And Kylo Beating His own Wound Ren going after Rey (and Finn but we really know who he wanted) instead of asking medical help. Teacher!Kylo trying to woo Rey into running away with him while the world is falling apart around them (coincidentally, it's a snow world just like Hoth). Marry Me face Kylo.

@vaderito It's true. All of it.

Kylo "I can show you the ways of the world" Ren. 

Kylo is very emotional/passionate and impulsive by nature. He's likely the most emotional character in TFA. We saw how strongly he felt and exhibited rage, sorrow and impulsive behavior. I'm sure he has the capacity to feel emotions like love, compassion and attachment just as powerfully, despite how badly he wants to rid himself of those sentiments.  

Han was a passionate guy and he actually had a big heart under his gruff surface. So I too can see Kylo perceiving the ability to "feel"as what made him "weak and foolish" like his father.

Slade wrote:And I don't see him being thrilled by fatherhood.

I have not read Bloodlines, but someone excerpted a few lines that described Leia realizing she was pregnant and then waiting about eleven days before (telling Han? Accepting it?). Makes me wonder if she considered terminating.

@Slade

Can't find any reference to the pregnancy in Bloodline, except for Leia observing that a spacetrip with Han had probably resulted in Ben nine months later.

Weak and foolish sounds like one of those phrases you suspect that Snoke - the Miss Havisham to his Estella - drilled into him. However "weak and foolish" = "personal interests." It's a good chance that those qualities will come out the more he tries to suppress them and more than likely have to do with these two ladies (who coincidentally, his father seems to also think an awful lot of):





Would be willing to bet, especially with the "Leia is ambushed by an attack orchestrated by Hux/the FO and goes into a coma" rumor and "Bring her to meeeee." that those two become the personal interests which drive his actions going forward, most likely in turning against Snoke and the FO. Which is pretty much out of the old man's playbook.

Yeah there wasn't any reference to Leia's pregnancy in Bloodlines. I'm not sure where the waiting 11 days to tell Han came from as I don't remember that part either.

However, there was a very heartwarming excerpt with Leia reminiscing with Han over their newborn as they were very hopeful for the future. I personally think Han loved Ben very much - however he could never have the understanding he would have wanted with his child due to Ben's high Force sensitivity. I think of it as a parallel to a real life situation where you have a father who loves sports and athletics, and hopes their son will have similar interests. The son instead is geared towards the arts and theatre, so the father might have a harder time relating to their child.

Maria Antonietta wrote:I'm pretty sure Han never accepted his powers or he was scared of them. He doesn't like this mumbo jumbo xD

@"Maria Antonietta“

Not sure if he was afraid of them, but they were probably a cause for conflict. In the TFA junior novelization Han is thinking to himself how he wished his son wasn’t born with Force powers, while walking on the bridge and towards him…