Weak and foolish like his father - Who was Han Solo indeed?

Kessel89 wrote:Kylo is very emotional/passionate and impulsive by nature. He's likely the most emotional character in TFA. We saw how strongly he felt and exhibited rage, sorrow and impulsive behavior. I'm sure he has the capacity to feel emotions like love, compassion and attachment just as powerfully, despite how badly he wants to rid himself of those sentiments.  

Han was a passionate guy and he actually had a big heart under his gruff surface. So I too can see Kylo perceiving the ability to "feel"as what made him "weak and foolish" like his father.

@Kessel89

Reading that made me realise that Rey is very impulsive too

Darth Dementor wrote:

Slade wrote:Ok, Han has always been a favorite of mine, but...

He's a criminal. Much of his life was spent as a criminal. He is also self-centered, though in certain situations he can override that. I think he is an orphan. I see someone who had to use his wits to survive and could not afford to think much about the morality of his actions. He is snide and abrasive and enjoys antagonizing some people (Leia). I have mentioned elsewhere that I think he treated kids the way he treated droids. He thrives on adventure and excitement and maybe even danger. He would find a settled family life stifling.

Btw, how much time passed between ANH and ESB? And between ESB and RotJ?

@Slade

Han was brash and abrasive but when he cared for someone he wouldn't hesitate to back them up. He loved Chewie like a brother and before he was frozen in carbonite his thoughts was of Leia. When Chewie tried to escape to help him he told him to protect the princess. They were both in danger but he put her first, caring more about her than himself, in a life or death situation.

@Darth Dementor

That's really striking rewatching ESB as an adult, even if he starts out hitting on Leia (which you can see all the way back in the first movie), he does end up basically getting in way deeper with the bounty over his head because he spends the whole movie trying to get her out Vader's way. And even then, she's so completely awful to him for most of the movie, until s**t gets real enough that she finally does let her guard down. He doesn't ever say the L word to her during the movie, but it's pretty clear that he does love her (even when she's insulting the MF, while he's trying to get them out of Echo Base with Vader literally on their heels) because of what he goes through for her.

Also bonus thought - both characters were fleshed out and written by Lawrence Kasden. And we know that LK LOOOOVES Han and has gushed about KR.

I think Han always had a good heart and knew right from wrong.  He wouldn't do anything sleazy or creepy unless the other person was sleazy or creepy (killing Greedo, dealing with other scoundrels).  Then he met Leia and the Rebellion, both changed him for the better.  He found a noble cause in the Rebellion and the pilots, Luke with his idealism gave his cynical nature some hope, and Leia was someone who fiercely fought for her cause and didn't put up with his sith, knocked some sense and responsibility into him.

So by the end of Return of the Jedi, I think he was a matured man and would have loved having a child with Leia because he loved her and was in a great place (Empire down, justice restored, a medal-ed General).  He would want to go all in with helping Leia raise their son.  Han had learned in his arc that you don't run away from your problems or leave it to others and check out.  He dedicated himself to the cause.  He didn't even walk away from Leia in ROTJ when she wouldn't tell him what her problem was, like he probably would've in the past.  Of course realistically, Han and Leia would argue, bicker, and separate like they did in ESB as a married couple; who really wants to see that in a fantasy movie?  Especially one that ended on a triumphant note, with the beloved characters having grown so much.  

But they did, and I can also see why JJ went this way in TFA.  They had to knock the trio down to continue the story, otherwise, there would really be no story.  It sucked at first, as an OT fan, but then I accepted it.  They wanted to inject "realism" into this and therefore, they had the heroic trio "regress" as characters.  How would realistic parents act in real life when their kid was not normal?  If characters like Han and Leia had a troubled kid? How would it affect their marriage and family dynamic?

Anyway, from Kylo's point of view, I can see why he'd view Han as weak and foolish (even though he's mistaken).  Kylo is part Force... that's huge.  It's like finding out your own grandfather was a demigod.  Of course he'd have a sense of elitism, especially when his own dad had no powers and did not understand it.  He saw his father take off and leave his mother and himself.  His own father couldn't help him and the demons in his head (Snoke).  And poor kid, having a supernatural predator in his head and no one to turn to.

I think Han tried his very best, but the shadow of Vader was always there as Kylo slipped further from them.  It's hard to connect and help a kid if you can't even understand what he's going through.  So the weak part would be that Han did not share in the legacy and power of the Force, which Kylo worshipped, so Han = a Muggle.  And that Han and Ben were powerless to stop these external forces. Also the love and compassion thing which he grew to view as weak because it interferes with the darkside.

The Foolish part could be the gambling and continued dealings with scoundrels, and flying away from responsibility like he was going through a midlife crisis.  Even I agree with Kylo here, why would Han do that?  Why didn't he help Leia with her cause...he was a General after all, thought he'd grown more mature.  The Resistance could've used his skills.  Why did Han give up on Ben?  This is where, I think, JJ and team slipped up a bit on Han's character.  Of course, we need to know what exactly happened in the past so hopefully it will be satisfying.

I've been thinking lately what it could mean that Rey saw Han as a father figure. Maybe her real father was also a smuggler? She seemed to admire him more for that than for being a war hero.

Jakku wrote:

Slade wrote:And I don't see him being thrilled by fatherhood.

I have not read Bloodlines, but someone excerpted a few lines that described Leia realizing she was pregnant and then waiting about eleven days before (telling Han? Accepting it?). Makes me wonder if she considered terminating.

@Slade

Can't find any reference to the pregnancy in Bloodline, except for Leia observing that a spacetrip with Han had probably resulted in Ben nine months later.

@Jakku

Maybe i saw it elsewhere. Or i could be nuts. That is possible.

IoJovi wrote:Yeah there wasn't any reference to Leia's pregnancy in Bloodlines. I'm not sure where the waiting 11 days to tell Han came from as I don't remember that part either.

However, there was a very heartwarming excerpt with Leia reminiscing with Han over their newborn as they were very hopeful for the future. I personally think Han loved Ben very much - however he could never have the understanding he would have wanted with his child due to Ben's high Force sensitivity. I think of it as a parallel to a real life situation where you have a father who loves sports and athletics, and hopes their son will have similar interests. The son instead is geared towards the arts and theatre, so the father might have a harder time relating to their child.

@IoJovi

Just what I thought.
The tragedy of Ben Solo was he was deeply loved, but he was never understood. He was desperate for affection, but convinced his parents had no love for him. The shadow of Vader hung over both his parents who kept seeing Vader in their son, but failed to see themselves in him.

I remember reading a sad interview with Elvis Presley, who said he felt lonely in a crowded room. Kylo, I think is the same kind of person.

WhatGirl wrote:I've been thinking lately what it could mean that Rey saw Han as a father figure. Maybe her real father was also a smuggler? She seemed to admire him more for that than for being a war hero.

@WhatGirl

he was just an older man who was really nice and caring to her, which she didn't get from anyone on Jakku. Also, since the crowd on Jakku were mostly lowlife, projecting her father fantasy onto a smuggler seemed more real than if he was a royalty or government official. 

Also, they either imply she didn't know he was a war hero but that his reputation on Jakku was famous smuggler, or that smuggler reputation impressed her more.

vaderito wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:I've been thinking lately what it could mean that Rey saw Han as a father figure. Maybe her real father was also a smuggler? She seemed to admire him more for that than for being a war hero.

@WhatGirl

he was just an older man who was really nice and caring to her, which she didn't get from anyone on Jakku. Also, since the crowd on Jakku were mostly lowlife, projecting her father fantasy onto a smuggler seemed more real than if he was a royalty or government official. 

Also, they either imply she didn't know he was a war hero but that his reputation on Jakku was famous smuggler, or that smuggler reputation impressed her more.

@vaderito

Come to think of it, Kylo says that she thinks of Han as the father she never had. If that's to be taken literally, then he really does not remind her of anyone. So yeah, scratch that.

@WhatGirl No worries. What can we do in the next year and a half but go through every detail that we didn't discuss already? 

IoJovi wrote:Yeah there wasn't any reference to Leia's pregnancy in Bloodlines. I'm not sure where the waiting 11 days to tell Han came from as I don't remember that part either.

However, there was a very heartwarming excerpt with Leia reminiscing with Han over their newborn as they were very hopeful for the future. I personally think Han loved Ben very much - however he could never have the understanding he would have wanted with his child due to Ben's high Force sensitivity. I think of it as a parallel to a real life situation where you have a father who loves sports and athletics, and hopes their son will have similar interests. The son instead is geared towards the arts and theatre, so the father might have a harder time relating to their child.

@IoJovi
i don't think it's force-sensitivity per se, it's a temperament thing, han tends to be very emotionally distant ('i know') and ben most likely wasn't distant.

the thing about understanding to me isn't that you have had the same experiences as the other person. that is so rarely the case. it's about allowing the experience of the other as it unfolds and not to judge it. if that is too much therapyspeak for you... when han meets his adult son again, i think it's the first time that he simply listens and is present to him. i don't think either party, han or leia, were ever able to do that for him. and that's not a force failing, that's being unbiased in the face of a different person.

and they had reason to be biased, but i'm sure they were judging their son pretty soon.



i don't know how he was 'weak and foolish', however, i can see it as either indoctrination in terms of feeling affection for anyone is a weakness and therefore han is weak like that, but he isn't a particularly affectionate type.

and foolish... for not seeing the importance of something?

i like @vaderito's take on it that it's rhetorics and all, but i can't work out whether it's jsut stuff he says or whether each are tied to a specific event.

it's just like 'murderers and traitors and thieves' ... surely he must be aware of the supreme irony of calling others murderers?

it's just like 'murderers and traitors and thieves' ... surely he must be aware of the supreme irony of calling others murderers? WTH

@guardienne

We know that Kylo likes to project much. You're never quite sure whether he's talking about himself while appearing to be talking about others.

Yes, I was genuinely curious about that one; the 'traitor' of course was Finn, the 'thief' would have been Han but who was the 'murderer'?

Chewbacca?

vaderito wrote:

it's just like 'murderers and traitors and thieves' ... surely he must be aware of the supreme irony of calling others murderers? WTH

@guardienne

We know that Kylo likes to project much. You're never quite sure whether he's talking about himself while appearing to be talking about others.

@vaderito

well it's pretty confusing because we've seen him do some murdering. so i'm expecting luke to have done murdering now? idk.

Well, we do know that Han shot first!

I think they originally filmed scenes of Maz back at the Resistance base, so possibly Kylo's statement covers her too. And she was the one - according to a scene from Rey's vision that was cut from the final film - who stole the lightsabre from Kylo. So she may be one of the 'thieves'.

But if we're going to be pedantic, 'murderers, traitors and thieves' implies at least six persons. On Takodana, Rey knows two humans, one Wookie, Maz, and a droid, ie five. So I think at least one of them must be doubling up! .

i think we definitely need to be more pedantic @jakku!

i just find it odd that this doesn't give him hiccups. it's like he's not seeing himself int his at all. i can understand that finn is a traitor, that han is a thief, and that they are both murderers ... and he must honestly be consumed by this, because he doesn't see himself murdering? does he think he is just so enormously entitled that he is in the right place and doing everything right? no doubts?

Adam said in an interview that Kylo genuinely believes that he's right, that everything he's doing is the 'right thing to do', and therefore he's justified.
I remember in the 'Avengers' movie, Loki telling his brother that if he ruled humanity as their king he'd stop them from killing themselves - that despot or no, it would be for the 'greater good'. I think Kylo saw himself as that, as someone who was doing a 'good thing' as the First Order would be controlling all the planets and thus preventing war. A horrible skewed version of the truth but one he obviously believes in.
ational
When he killed Lor San Tekka - that was Kylo losing control. It seemed calm and rational but when he said 'I'll show you the dark side" I could hear him beginning to lose it. That was not planned. When he executed the villagers it was different.
Now I am in no way 'justifying' his actions. But, where we see the villagers as decent people making a stand against space Nazis, Kylo, with his firm belief in the 'righteousness of his cause', saw terrorists.
I think that was his way of thinking anyway.

If he sees the Jedi as something that weakens the galaxy by encouraging passivity, I guess the Church of the Force - ie all the villagers - might seem like fundraisers for terrorism or something. Although I must say they didn't seem all that gentle and passive to me.

Jakku wrote:If he sees the Jedi as something that weakens the galaxy by encouraging passivity, I guess the Church of the Force - ie all the villagers - might seem like fundraisers for terrorism or something. Although I must say they didn't seem all that gentle and passive to me.

@Jakku

Yes, I couldn't help but notice they made a point of showing they all had weapons.

@jakku like the notion of the jedi as being too passive.

i find it difficult to square that he is essentially talking about his family as murderers and thieves, which is true, but it's either major dissociation or indoctrination or delusion.

i think him murdering LST wasn't planned, no. but i don't think that's unusual for him. his personal feelings will always get in the way of a greater cause. it's interesting that way. he doesn't murder han for being a terrorist even though he'd be very justified doing that.

guardienne wrote:
i don't think it's force-sensitivity per se, it's a temperament thing, han tends to be very emotionally distant ('i know') and ben most likely wasn't distant.

I am not 100% sold out on Han being emotionally distant - I am more into believing that Han tries too much all time to look cool and make the image of a cool, independent, scoundrel hot shot - but in reality he is just opposite.
He is emotional and has a big heart in his core. Before the famous "I know" he is pretty much worried about Leia (more than about himself) and shouting to Chewie to take care of Princess. Because Han genuinely cares about her, but is too stubborn to admit his weaknesses. (almost like his son in his "I am Vader 2.0 poses)

guardienne wrote:
the thing about understanding to me isn't that you have had the same experiences as the other person. that is so rarely the case. it's about allowing the experience of the other as it unfolds and not to judge it. if that is too much therapyspeak for you... when han meets his adult son again, i think it's the first time that he simply listens and is present to him.

@guardienne

I am almost sure the bolded was the case. That s why Kylo breaks. And it makes the mentioned situation even more tragic. Something finally happened between the two but Kylo obviously for some reason thought it was too late.

@darth_awakened i really do agree with you. maybe 'emotionally distant' isn't the right wording.

i think he's busy looking cool, something which i think his son never mastered or cared for much. i don't have children so this is pure conjecture but i get the impression they leave you vulnerable. and i don't think han likes that. this isn't a value judgement. and his son is a very sensitive person, introverted and whatever else you wanna throw in there, and he'd need emotional resonance and i think neither his parents can give that.

guardienne wrote:i think we definitely need to be more pedantic @jakku!

i just find it odd that this doesn't give him hiccups. it's like he's not seeing himself int his at all. i can understand that finn is a traitor, that han is a thief, and that they are both murderers ... and he must honestly be consumed by this, because he doesn't see himself murdering? does he think he is just so enormously entitled that he is in the right place and doing everything right? no doubts?

@guardienne

I always found this line weird too. Sometimes Kylo makes no sense. On one hand there's the idea that he thinks what he's doing is right and that might be the root of it, though I still wonder how true that is. Kylo's motivations seem to keep flip-flopping within outside interviews and inside text in scripts/novels. On the other hand, he's specifically trying to be dark and fight against his own light. So in that sense you think he'd be perfectly happy to say that he's a murderer.

@zioren

well i can see him being utterly convinced he is right. and that is ok. and i guess that would entail thinking that the murdering you yourself do is justified and ridding the world of something, erm, unneeded?

i guess how most people rationalise is that he *wants* to convince himself of these things because otherwise his actions would be pretty awful, if that makes any sense. if he crusades around and kills all the infidels because they are infidels really, he has to rationalise that by saying, snoke tells me to, and also, i'm with the dark side and this is how i belong here and also, ... this is expected of me.

i think the way to trap someone with that kind of capacity is to say, we can use this best, therefore your true purpose is with us. it's objectification. and because he is conflicted, he kinda thinks this will end the conflict. but it doesn't, so he has to carry on rationalising something that is pretty awful.

i don't think i'm explaining this very well.

Thinking of that 'murderers, traitors, thieves' thing again...

We don't know what was really happening when Kylo stared at FN-2187 in the village. We assume Kylo was sensing Finn's reluctance to kill. But what if he was really imparting some mind-control instructions, where Snoke couldn't detect he was doing it? And then Finn didn't do what he was supposed to do, say something that would help Kylo escape or would warn his parents and keep them safe?

In that case, he really does feel that Finn is a traitor to him personally, and it's not surprising that Finn is terrified of him.

Probably not likely, but it would be an interesting twist.

guardienne wrote:i think we definitely need to be more pedantic @jakku!

i just find it odd that this doesn't give him hiccups. it's like he's not seeing himself int his at all. i can understand that finn is a traitor, that han is a thief, and that they are both murderers ... and he must honestly be consumed by this, because he doesn't see himself murdering? does he think he is just so enormously entitled that he is in the right place and doing everything right? no doubts?

@guardienne You've never met a real life narcissist have you?   The cheater who accuses his spouse of being a (insert any derogatory term regarding female sexuality here). The ex-spouse who sold her ex's possessions out from under him but rants about how child support is state sponsored theft. These people exist. And while I wouldn't say specific mental illnesses are diagnosable in the SW universe, Kylo has a particular set of characteristics (see: entitlement, arrogance, and anger issues) that fit in with a category of people who are particularly prone to projecting onto others.

See also: The supreme irony of antis using abusive tactics to "stand up against" people "shipping abuse".