ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 2

Reynak wrote:

AnneNeville wrote:

Reynak wrote:
@Gemini

But this is my point, that we should have noticed it. If I was AD I'd feel disappointed so many people didn't get Kylo felt something for Rey or that he never meant to hurt her in the duel. After watching the movie again and also the DVD extras this is clear, at least for us here, but it is sad that beautiful "duel" that carries so much meaning and about which HF said it was a beautiful piece of story telling, didn't deliver its real message to so many viewers. I don't think this should be attributed only to people seeing what they want to see because young viewers for whom SW is just a franchise like many others and don't have any special expectstions also missed a lot, including what te duel meant. Unless you notice Kylo doesn't really want to hurt Ray, you'd think he is a disaster as a baddy and she is much more powerful than Kylo or that she is Luke's child and that's why the sabre goes to her. Remember that Maz says that sabre calls to her? Why?

Maz never says it is hers only that it WAS Luke's and Anakin's first ( which means that now it isn't) and calling to her now for some reason. Well, it's OK that there are things people don't get but here there are too many, I'm afraid. Too many things missed by too many people.

As for Han and Kylo's dynamic not being so important, I can't agree, because it is true TFA is no longer Han's , Leia's and Luke's story but it is Kylo's story, Ben's story, and his father issues with his real father and his surroagate father (Snoke) are essential for his character. It's obvious that his connection with Rey is crucial, or he wouldn't have unmasked for her like he did but this doesn't mean her story apart from him and hers apart from her aren't important too.

@Reynak

Hopefully Adam Driver isn't worrying about what the audience perceived. If he were a stage actor and we missed the point of his performance that would be one thing. But filmmaking is collaborative, and an actor in a movie has to give up ownership of their performance, basically, the moment it's done. Everything they do is subject to multiple layers of editing and "framing," it's out of their grasp. If the audience failed to perceive the point of the performance, the blame lies with the director and cinematographer.

AD seems like a perfectionist, and I think he avoids watching his own performance for a reason. I really hope that he has not been reading commentary online.

I think that we should assume that the movie delivered what JJ and Disney wanted it to, at least in terms of setting up the story for the future. It's really a simple setup. The whole movie is "chase the MacGuffin," an excuse to introduce the new trio. That's it. There's honestly not a lot of substance there, and from my point of view all the most meaningful scenes revolve around Kylo Ren. (Even the best parts with Han and Leia revolve around their relationship and therefore Ben's backstory).

If the movie didn't achieve what the filmmakers wanted, it was a phenomenal screw-up. But it was a big hit worldwide and plans are moving forward for VIII. Everyone involved seems pretty happy with what they got.

@AnneNeville
 
Driver did see the movie with Daisy and Carrie, just them. I read that in an interview, so this time he couldn't get away without watching his work like he does with Girls. Also, he must deliver what the director wants but this doesn't mean actors are always happy with the shots chosen and the final editing. Also, going by his words comparing JJ and so "many pieces moving around at the same time" and the anxiety now gone with Rian because they have found a language. That he can't wait to be on set again with Rian", we may suspect that there were too many pieces moving around and a language not too clear for his taste. 

When I heard his say that I was a bit surprised that he said that, but perhaps it's just me analysing too much, as usaual,

Reynak wrote:

Gemini wrote:

Reynak wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Reynak wrote:We have been talking here about subtlety and JJ's mystery box. Also about the movie's fast pace and how they film makers have veiled Reylo and kept hidden Kylo's motivations and the reasons for his fall. I think I am somewhat disappointed with how things came out because too many people didn't get any of the intersting themes or the narrative and visual devices that make this movie so special. Yesterday, a friend of mine, who is guy, told me had seen TFA. I had recommended him to see it. When I asked him what he thought of the movie he said it was entertsining and he was shocked Han solo died and that he was killed by his son. Just that. The problem is that this guy owns hundreds of fims and has good taste, he's not the typical action film watching man, he loves Tarantino, Scorsese or Clint Eastwood's movies. He's not th usual thick-headed guy who consumes movies and pop corn carelessly and without thinking. And he only found the movie entertaining, someone who reads quite a lot and loves cinema, good cinema.

This makes me wonder if they haven't gone too far trying to be unpredictable because if people don't get there's more to it than meets the eye they don't bother to see it more than once and then miss its complexity. Its simplicity is only apparent but if people don't perceive there may be more to it, they won't try to dig further and just reach the surface of the film. It's a pity because thenmovie deserves much more. The critics have a really good opinion of the movie but most viewers just saw an enertaining movie. With younger men it is even worse because they wishes Kylo had kept his mask on and stayed cool as a cucumber and relentless in his evil machinations because later he seemed too emotional and a sucked as a villain, especially losing that duel with an untrained girl and a non FS guy. They also think it was absurd that Rey kicked Kylo's a.. In the final duel or that Finn stood up to him for a while. I am talking about guys who watch lots of movies and they missed the point completely.

I really think the surprise factor is overvalued and this may become a problem if most viewers don't understand the movie. It also happens to women, it happend to female friends of mine and some of the people in this forum have said they didn't notice Reylo the first time they saw TFA. I don't think this is good, a film should be understood the first time you see it and make you feel curious and watch it a second time to look for more if you like. The problem is when so many people thought he was very entertaining but just a rehash where something shocking happened. I know movies have to be entertaining but if they are meant to be taken for more than just an entertaining flick the balance between depth and entertainment should be considered. I don't know if too many good ideas and good writing were sacrified for the sake of entertainment and speed. I know it must be a damn difficult task for a director to decide what to emphasize and what to veil, because attracting the GA is essential, but I am quite disappointed with the number of viewers who didn't get what they saw. They are far too many and this forum is no indication of how most saw the movie, we are rather an exception. The old forum gave us an idea what the general situation is and it's really disappointing to see how mistaken most viewers are.

I also think it was a mistake to leve hints in the movie that may lead people to think Rey is Luke's daughter, the hints were intentional and meant to lead viewers of the track but I think this backfired when the movie ended and they didn't realise she wasn't. If the hints that indicate she may be a Kenobi are also red herrings it will be quite annoying. And this may happen. I would be happy if she was Rey no one, which was what I thought when I first saw the movie but I don't know what to think. Too many red herrings get annoying. If you use some it's OK but her I think they have used too many.

@Reynak

As I've said before, they really need to debunk all the Skywalker nonsense in the first minute of the next chapter

@Maria Antonietta

But how? They left too many visual hints suggesting she is Luke's and then there were reasons to dismiss it, especially Maz's words and Luke's reaction when he saw Rey? If they didn't get it after watching TFA, what can the film makers do know? The can't make Luke say she is not his child because that would be ridiculous, so unless they make it clear who her parents were, no subtle hints will make people realise she isn't Luke's. Most guys and many women are absolutely convinced she is at this point and the film makers are the ones to blame for that with all those red herrings.

Red herrings and cliffhangers become a nuisance when people get so confused they don't trust what the movie is telling them any more. I like to trust the story teller, movie makers in this case, this doesn't mean films should be predictable but they need to have consistency and not make you loose footing all the time, at least in most movies. There may be some that are like a roller coaster od deceiving clues but I don't think this is SW style or should be. Rey Skywalker is damaging the movie and it was JJ's idea to lead people there. It should have been clear at the end of the movie she is not Luke's but it seems it wasn't clear for most.

@Reynak

I never noticed reylo and still left the cinema not knowing who she was. I think a lot of people just went in expecting it to be about a skywalker so they saw what they wanted to see. Even when the sabre called to her I did not think skywalker. Swords call to those who are worthy not because of bloodlines. Luke was never called to that sabre

I'm not even a huge fan of other Star Wars movies and the first thing I said to my dad who loves Star Wars was that I think she is a kenobi and he agreed.

He also could tell it would be a fight for the soul of kylo ren, again it all screams anakin and obi wan

It's not hard to see that she is not a skywalker, people just want her to be so they find any little thing.

She is not a skywalker because kylo ren wants to have her and later he looks at her in love  I can't believe people still think cousins when they see the interrigation scene. Cousins do not look at cousins like that, unless it's game of thrones and I doubt this is trying to be game of thrones.

As a filmmaker I can see that they have used 2 shots in that scene which do not flow with the rest of the editing, and it is when they both share the space together. The shots are designed to suggest something to the audience

It happens when he goes at her side and is looking at her with desire, the shot totally lingers and they pan in slowly the more he starts to look at her with physical desire. She can't see this. The shot is designed to let the audience know that he wants her, and he wants her so badly.

The second time this happens us when Rey is panting like they are in the middle of sex and it slowly pans up his arm to his face and he looks like a man who is in the middle of sex..that shot is supposed to resemble sex, plain and simple, when it cuts away he has a different expression and the editing is faster paced

That shot does not scream cousins at all

@Gemini

I agree the scene shows his desire and she pants as if she was having sex,  but while she is panting and struggling his arm trembles and his face looks anguished. Then she gets to his secret fear and we see him shivering and really horrified. As there are two layers in this scene and it shows these two entering each other's minds, and there's also a second layer (subtext) underneath that can be read as sexual intercourse (I agree with you on that), what does his reaction tell us about his and her relation with sex? Because she seems surprised but not uncomfortable when he breaks contact, as if the experince hadn't been unpleasant whereas he seems distressed and deeply affected, he is tremblig, he breaks contact and runs away to Snoke as if running away from her and from sex too. 

He wants her, so badly. Perhaps this is related with his words " I won't be seduced" and it's as if he was afraid of being seduced and sex may very easily lead to his seduction. He is like a Knight Templar wanting sex as much as he fears it, like Bryan de Bois Gilbert facing Rebecca. He is horrified because he will lure him to what his body and his lonely soul craves but he thinks it is wrong and will make him stagger and deviate from the DS. It's like the Knight Templars order for Bois Gilbert, and feels like sin for him. Rebecca is a different religion than Bois Gilbert and he can't have her as he is a monk and a Christian but the guy is head over heels in love with her and kidnaps her, because he wants her love, he keeps her hidden from his order masters and her family and friends. Bois Gilbert is a villain and this perception never changes but he loves more deeply and passionstely than the hero ( Ivanhoe). 
 
This knight templar is totally controlled by his master to the extent that he is made to fight the champion defending his beloved's innocence when the only thing he wants is for her to survive. He dies for her, because he loses to a seriously wounded knight and with a smile on his lips, so unless you believe God made him lose to save the girl he lost and died to save her.

I'm being carried away, LOL. But I think now I know the reason he let her inside his mind without resisting but then trembled when she was there. Because she discovered his worst fear, which is the first obvious reason, but also because that was the first time he gave up to seduction, both from the Light and fron the way he is drawn to her, physically and emotionally. So he fears he is not as strong as Vader but also fears he may be seduced by her. If we have to deal with the subtext she is not afraid or disgusted by what they are doing once she takes the upper han ( girl on top simil?) but he is shivering and finally runs away, like the templar giving in to what his body needs and and his mind craves but his order and his supreme leader forbids. He runs away before his "seduction" is complete.

As for the lightsabre, it belongs to the Skywalkers and goes from one Skywalker to another. Only Kenobi kept it the years in between but just to give it to the next Skywalker when he was ready. I guess it is the same now and Rey is only its guardian (another Kenobi?), so this sabre didn't go to her because she is more worthy but because the force chose her as its guardian until the next Skywalker is ready. But he will need her help to break free.

Reynak wrote:

As for the lightsabre, it belongs to the Skywalkers and goes from one Skywalker to another. Only Kenobi kept it the years in between but just to give it to the next Skywalker when he was ready. I guess it is the same now and Rey is only its guardian (another Kenobi?), so this sabre didn't go to her because she is more worthy but because the force chose her as its guardian until the next Skywalker is ready. But he will need her help to break free.

Gemini wrote:@Reynak

See I know you think that TFA should have made it obvious but I disagree.

I don't think it was ever their intent to make it glaringly obvious. They want us to be debating it and talking about it for 2 years until the next one comes out so you will rush to the cinema to see what the answers are.

I believe reylo to be end game and it will be end game and the desired effect is to litter TFA with hints towards this so that when you look back on it after you know reylo is canon you will be amazed that it was there the entire time. That's what he did with Star Trek

vaderito wrote:I don't understand all this talk that people didn't get Reylo. This ship is the biggest ship in TFA so it means that many people felt it. Both Reylos and antis (cause they wouldn't be sithing bricks if they didn't feel that something was going on). Reylo is noticed just fine while Finnrey flopped because nobody cares.

vaderito wrote:JJ's style is typical of "when you look back you'll see certain scenes in different light" build. Once Reylo happens, people will look back and go "it has always been there!" It isn't that they aren't noticing but many of them expect familial reveal because OT and TFA, on the surface, is ANH rehash (I'd say that essentially TFA's really trying to correct TP especially with Kylo and Reylo). So they are conditioned to think that there must be a reveal about heroine and villain and it must be along the lines of "I am your ______" even if they know it doesn't make sense. Most aren't oblivious to Reylo just prevented from admitting there's something cause it was never done in SW.

Force22 wrote:

vaderito wrote:JJ's style is typical of "when you look back you'll see certain scenes in different light" build. Once Reylo happens, people will look back and go "it has always been there!" It isn't that they aren't noticing but many of them expect familial reveal because OT and TFA, on the surface, is ANH rehash (I'd say that essentially TFA's really trying to correct TP especially with Kylo and Reylo). So they are conditioned to think that there must be a reveal about heroine and villain and it must be along the lines of "I am your ______" even if they know it doesn't make sense. Most aren't oblivious to Reylo just prevented from admitting there's something cause it was never done in SW.

@vaderito

It's going to be "I'm your most ardent admirer"

Darth Dingbat wrote:

vaderito wrote:I don't understand all this talk that people didn't get Reylo. This ship is the biggest ship in TFA so it means that many people felt it. Both Reylos and antis (cause they wouldn't be sithing bricks if they didn't feel that something was going on). Reylo is noticed just fine while Finnrey flopped because nobody cares.

@vaderito

Oh, you're right. My gut feeling originally was that Reylo was more popular than it would seem, but @Force22's Google statistics really drove it home for me. Not only is it the most popular ship (or at least, the ship that piques the most interest), it's overwhelmingly so. For all the hype, StormPilot pales in comparison. And the popularity of FinnRey trails far, far behind.

But I think @Reynak was talking about more than just Reylo - or at least I was. I keep flip-flopping on where I stand on TFA, but the fact is that there is a surface narrative that was sufficient for many viewers, and a deeper narrative that wasn't signalled quite clearly enough. I don't think it's just hardcore fans or anything. I've seen and heard a lot of reactions from casual viewers who don't seem to see anything beyond the surface.

So... I don't know. It's a balancing act, like I said. I don't mean they should have spelled everything out and thrown subtlety and ambiguity out of the window. Far from it. I just feel like... eh. You know, I think people snatch up the most "obvious" answers in the surface narrative - like the "Rey Skywalker" chestnut - because the film didn't really seem to give ANY answers to ANYTHING. Had there been a better balance of answered and unanswered questions, people would probably have been more intrigued by the unanswered questions and the subtleties and ambiguities. It's difficult to "read" a story where everything is presented as a mystery, you know? You need some reliable facts to ground yourself.

I don't know what I'd done differently, as I'm not there writing the story. I just don't think the mystery box approach was entirely successful.

EchoBase wrote:until the bridalcarry-scene, then I was like: "something is wrong here."

Darth Dingbat wrote:@Reynak: "I haven't said they should have made it obvious, but to make people suspect there was more to it."

Yes, this exactly! This is what I mean, too.

I think of it this way: say you're writing a book that's partly a murder mystery, but there are other storylines going on, too. You carefully place clues and red herrings in the novel. It's a really good mystery, well-plotted and intriguing, with dramatic and interesting twists ahead.

But then you somehow fail to signal the mystery storyline clearly enough. The people who read your book pay more attention to all the other storylines and mostly fail to be intrigued by the most important story, which is the carefully constructed mystery, because they don't even notice it's there. The red herrings and clues don't count for much if the readers aren't signalled how to read your book.

(The difference between this scenario and TFA is, of course, that in TFA there isn't just one hidden "mystery storyline" but everything is a potential mystery - from Luke's disappearance to Rey's origin and to Kylo's past and to Reylo shenanigans and to Snoke's real goals and to... need I go on?)

Perhaps @vaderito is right that TFA was intended to be the kind of film that can only be fully appreciated in retrospect, but I still can't escape the feeling that something could have been done differently to make the film stand more on its own legs - as the first film of a trilogy that actually moves the story forward, instead of just a prologue. Answering some questions, and signalling the questions that are waiting to be answered a leeeeettle bit more clearly, without spelling things out and making them obvious. It's not either/or, IMO.

Rimfaxe96 wrote:

EchoBase wrote:until the bridalcarry-scene, then I was like: "something is wrong here."

@EchoBase

My alarm bells were ringing the moment they actually had Rey and Kylo interact with each other beyond just a villainous "I will conquer everything!" speech followed by a few snarky remarks by the protagonist (or the poor protagonist being rescued by her sidekick - didn't happen tho, one was busy fighting his former colleagues, the other rolled away to safety). And then him being in her face. And then the bridal carry. And then he was in her face again. And then again in the final fight. And then 'You need a teacher!'.

I didn't know anything about the movie before watching it so was 100% unbiased - at least during my first watch. The other 7 times I went to the cinema never changed what I thought I had seen, although at first I was admittedly a little bit hesitant to actually believe it.

Reynak wrote:
This, exactly what you explain here. Reylo is only one of the things many didn't get. Also, people probably google the things they doubt and not the ones the consider proved. Is is possibe to find out wheher people google Rey Skywalker or Rey Kenobi more often? How can they see Reylo if they think they are cousins? I can tell you none of the guys around me got Reylo. My husband didn't see it and neither did my son, nor his friends. Perhaps the guys here are more oblivious to signs of romance. I also have female friends who thought they were related. Perhaps my experience is not representative but it is what I've encountered. I'm sorrounded by antis, Oh the horror! LOL

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Force22 wrote:

vaderito wrote:JJ's style is typical of "when you look back you'll see certain scenes in different light" build. Once Reylo happens, people will look back and go "it has always been there!" It isn't that they aren't noticing but many of them expect familial reveal because OT and TFA, on the surface, is ANH rehash (I'd say that essentially TFA's really trying to correct TP especially with Kylo and Reylo). So they are conditioned to think that there must be a reveal about heroine and villain and it must be along the lines of "I am your ______" even if they know it doesn't make sense. Most aren't oblivious to Reylo just prevented from admitting there's something cause it was never done in SW.

@vaderito

It's going to be "I'm your most ardent admirer"

@Force22

"In vain I have struggled. It will not do..."

Darth Dingbat wrote:One more thing. I suppose the angle I look at this from is that I don't think the point of good storytelling is to lull the audience into a false sense of security and then surprise them with an unexpected twist.

Twists can be great, but ultimately, good stories are ones that make you simultaneously intrigued and invested. Look at us: we're invested. We noticed the "mysteries", but that hasn't spoiled anything for us. If anything, it made us even more intrigued, and even more invested. We have no idea what's going to happen; we only know there's "something more" waiting to be explored.

I think a lot more people would be more intrigued, not less, if they'd been made more aware that they were supposed to question how things stood.

Force22 wrote:

Reynak wrote:
This, exactly what you explain here. Reylo is only one of the things many didn't get. Also, people probably google the things they doubt and not the ones the consider proved. Is is possibe to find out wheher people google Rey Skywalker or Rey Kenobi more often? How can they see Reylo if they think they are cousins? I can tell you none of the guys around me got Reylo. My husband didn't see it and neither did my son, nor his friends. Perhaps the guys here are more oblivious to signs of romance. I also have female friends who thought they were related. Perhaps my experience is not representative but it is what I've encountered. I'm sorrounded by antis, Oh the horror! LOL

@Reynak


Ok, Google Trends comparing Rey Skywalker and Rey Solo to Reylo don't paint a pretty picture:

https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=reylo%2C%20%22Rey%20Skywalker%22%2C%20Rey%20Solo&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B4

But then it means people are biased.

And, of course, most of the GA doesn't come home and google any of this, so it's obviously not a representative sample.
I really think Reylo is there, but within an ANH rehash frame it's hard to see it if you only look at the surface. I think it'll only make the reveal more interesting and satisfying for the people who are surprised by it. ( I don't mean the ones who already see it and fear it).

AnneNeville wrote:

Force22 wrote:

Ok, Google Trends comparing Rey Skywalker and Rey Solo to Reylo don't paint a pretty picture:

https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=reylo%2C%20%22Rey%20Skywalker%22%2C%20Rey%20Solo&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B4

But then it means people are biased.

And, of course, most of the GA doesn't come home and google any of this, so it's obviously not a representative sample.
I really think Reylo is there, but within an ANH rehash frame it's hard to see it if you only look at the surface. I think it'll only make the reveal more interesting and satisfying for the people who are surprised by it. ( I don't mean the ones who already see it and fear it).

Don't forget that the Google trends do not show why people are searching for a certain term. They might be searching for Rey Skywalker because they have doubts that it's true.