ARCHIVE: Can Kylo Be Redeemed? - 1

@SoloSideCousin ........I loved what you wrote about Ben Solo...... he is Han and Leia's only son at the end of the day (and Luke's nephew as well).....people lose sight of that in their enthusiasm to get Vader v.2 ........he is the legacy of two epic love stories and he has already hit the lowest point he could reach....now there will be a spectacular redemption..... I have faith in those writers....they will give us a backstory for Ben and a character arc over the next two movies that will have even the antis weeping in the theaters and clamoring for his redemption...

panki wrote:@SoloSideCousin ........I loved what you wrote about Ben Solo...... he is Han and Leia's only son at the end of the day (and Luke's nephew as well).....people lose sight of that in their enthusiasm to get Vader v.2 ........he is the legacy of two epic love stories and he has already hit the lowest point he could reach....now there will be a spectacular redemption..... I have faith in those writers....they will give us a backstory for Ben and a character arc over the next two movies that will have even the antis weeping in the theaters and clamoring for his redemption...

@panki

I want this so badly, all those antis claiming that they were for redemption and saw it coming from day one. There's no better karma than when antis change tune and act like they are and always have been the biggest fans ever.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

jakkusun wrote:I need to catch up on the last couple pages, but what do you guys think of this gif:


source

So many people say he is smiling and enjoying it, especially when they compare it to the behind the scenes gifs of this moment, but I don't see the sadistic smile??? I feel like I am the only one who doesn't see sadism and enjoyment here :/. I don't think this face is like the bts gif, either. Idk am I just crazy?

@jakkusun
Lol I see him enjoying it for sure. He's metaphorically burning himself because he lost his marbles (a.k.a. unraveled) after killing Han. He ran after Rey and Finn with a hole blown in his gut, then proceeded to scream and sadistically toy with Finn (the "traitor"). The "TRAITOR" scream and "Han Solo can't save you now" lines are both meant to be about Ren himself. The physical beating-his-own-wounds pushes this interpretation.

He LOST it. His lowest point. Han touched his face, Rey caught the saber and as it all came crumbling down the sun was reborn.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh, yeah, Kylo's crazy here. I think that Rey catching the saber actually brings him back to sanity. And calms him considerably. His aggression evaporates.

@vaderito

Yeah, I agree with you @vaderito and @FrolickingFizzgig.  It's not pure sadism to me.  He's getting some demented jollies for sure, but it's all in this completely "laughing, insane 'movie mental patient'" kind of way.  He is having a breakdown.  He hates Finn.  He hates himself.  He wants to punish himself for what he did and he's quite happy to use the annoyingly traitorous Finn as his personal voodoo doll.

Edit: Uh-oh ... Sorry for the triple post. The thread was moving so fast there for a minute that I thought it would be okay.

@SoloSideCousin

I guess this all makes sense. It's not like I'll have a meltdown and think he can't be redeemed over this, though. I'm not even trying to look for ways to make Kylo seem less "bad." I guess it just seems to me like his face shows the strain of his effort and he looks kinda dazed (like crazy insane), to answer your question @Force22 I guess I can also see some sort of "enjoyment," but only in a masochistic sort of dazed way. Haha kinda looks to me like his is on drugs or something and not fully present....it just doesn't seem like he's getting pure pleasure or enjoyment or triumph from it. I don't see that wicked grin of a classic villain. So I guess I agree essentially with what everyone is saying about him being crazy and also trying to hurt himself by hurting Finn here...or I am probably just crazy....and this post is a mess lol

vaderito wrote:

panki wrote:@SoloSideCousin ........I loved what you wrote about Ben Solo...... he is Han and Leia's only son at the end of the day (and Luke's nephew as well).....people lose sight of that in their enthusiasm to get Vader v.2 ........he is the legacy of two epic love stories and he has already hit the lowest point he could reach....now there will be a spectacular redemption..... I have faith in those writers....they will give us a backstory for Ben and a character arc over the next two movies that will have even the antis weeping in the theaters and clamoring for his redemption...

@panki

I want this so badly, all those antis claiming that they were for redemption and saw it coming from day one. There's no better karma than when antis change tune and act like they are and always have been the biggest fans ever.

@vaderito

I know! That would be the best reward.... especially if certain individuals that we shall not name change their tune and claim they supported reylo (I have a mental list) .... I will be so pleased!  

This must happen!

panki wrote:@SoloSideCousin ........I loved what you wrote about Ben Solo...... he is Han and Leia's only son at the end of the day (and Luke's nephew as well).....people lose sight of that in their enthusiasm to get Vader v.2 ........he is the legacy of two epic love stories and he has already hit the lowest point he could reach....now there will be a spectacular redemption..... I have faith in those writers....they will give us a backstory for Ben and a character arc over the next two movies that will have even the antis weeping in the theaters and clamoring for his redemption...

@panki

Thank you! And I agree with you here! Rian Johnson! Give Adam the material he needs and it will all be golden!!! :-) (If anyone can make them cry it is Adam ).

jakkusun wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

jakkusun wrote:I need to catch up on the last couple pages, but what do you guys think of this gif:


source

So many people say he is smiling and enjoying it, especially when they compare it to the behind the scenes gifs of this moment, but I don't see the sadistic smile??? I feel like I am the only one who doesn't see sadism and enjoyment here :/. I don't think this face is like the bts gif, either. Idk am I just crazy?

@jakkusun
Lol I see him enjoying it for sure. He's metaphorically burning himself because he lost his marbles (a.k.a. unraveled) after killing Han. He ran after Rey and Finn with a hole blown in his gut, then proceeded to scream and sadistically toy with Finn (the "traitor"). The "TRAITOR" scream and "Han Solo can't save you now" lines are both meant to be about Ren himself. The physical beating-his-own-wounds pushes this interpretation.

He LOST it. His lowest point. Han touched his face, Rey caught the saber and as it all came crumbling down the sun was reborn.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh, yeah, Kylo's crazy here. I think that Rey catching the saber actually brings him back to sanity. And calms him considerably. His aggression evaporates.

@vaderito

Yeah, I agree with you @vaderito and @FrolickingFizzgig.  It's not pure sadism to me.  He's getting some demented jollies for sure, but it's all in this completely "laughing, insane 'movie mental patient'" kind of way.  He is having a breakdown.  He hates Finn.  He hates himself.  He wants to punish himself for what he did and he's quite happy to use the annoyingly traitorous Finn as his personal voodoo doll.

Edit: Uh-oh ... Sorry for the triple post.  The thread was moving so fast there for a minute that I thought it would be okay.

@SoloSideCousin

I guess this all makes sense. It's not like I'll have a meltdown and think he can't be redeemed over this, though. I'm not even trying to look for ways to make Kylo seem less "bad." I guess it just seems to me like his face shows the strain of his effort and he looks kinda dazed (like crazy insane), to answer your question @Force22 I guess I can also see some sort of "enjoyment," but only in a masochistic sort of dazed way. Haha kinda looks to me like his is on drugs or something and not fully present....it just doesn't seem like he's getting pure pleasure or enjoyment or triumph from it. I don't see that wicked grin of a classic villain. So I guess I agree essentially with what everyone is saying about him being crazy and also trying to hurt himself by hurting Finn here...or I am probably just crazy....and this post is a mess lol

@jakkusun

YESSS! Like he's on drugs! Look at the eyes! There's nothing coolly evil there.  It's like this crazy manic insane thing, like he's thinking over and over again what he did and it's making him literally crack so badly that all he can do is lash out and laugh.  He is in full meltdown mode here.  @vaderito was right.  Rey catching the saber calms him down immensely.  That's why I think he's had a vision of that moment before and he knows that vision leads to something good.  It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Edit: Oh and P.S. Not to bring up the ash again, but this is a good thought I promise. I've been watching little clips of the movie here and there over the past few days on my laptop, and last night I got to the planet exploding.  Maybe other people have gone through this, but for me it was so interesting to see how they prolonged the blowing up and just kept the camera on the planet.  At first you just see sparks of light here and there, and then they increase to the point that they are all over and the whole thing looks like lit cigarette ash and then suddenly the light just overwhelms it and blows the whole thing apart, obliterating any sign of the "ash" (darkness) into an insanely bright ball of light.  Metaphor for the phoenix and rebirth indeed!

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

jakkusun wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

jakkusun wrote:I need to catch up on the last couple pages, but what do you guys think of this gif:


source

So many people say he is smiling and enjoying it, especially when they compare it to the behind the scenes gifs of this moment, but I don't see the sadistic smile??? I feel like I am the only one who doesn't see sadism and enjoyment here :/. I don't think this face is like the bts gif, either. Idk am I just crazy?

@jakkusun
Lol I see him enjoying it for sure. He's metaphorically burning himself because he lost his marbles (a.k.a. unraveled) after killing Han. He ran after Rey and Finn with a hole blown in his gut, then proceeded to scream and sadistically toy with Finn (the "traitor"). The "TRAITOR" scream and "Han Solo can't save you now" lines are both meant to be about Ren himself. The physical beating-his-own-wounds pushes this interpretation.

He LOST it. His lowest point. Han touched his face, Rey caught the saber and as it all came crumbling down the sun was reborn.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh, yeah, Kylo's crazy here. I think that Rey catching the saber actually brings him back to sanity. And calms him considerably. His aggression evaporates.

@vaderito

Yeah, I agree with you @vaderito and @FrolickingFizzgig.  It's not pure sadism to me.  He's getting some demented jollies for sure, but it's all in this completely "laughing, insane 'movie mental patient'" kind of way.  He is having a breakdown.  He hates Finn.  He hates himself.  He wants to punish himself for what he did and he's quite happy to use the annoyingly traitorous Finn as his personal voodoo doll.

Edit: Uh-oh ... Sorry for the triple post.  The thread was moving so fast there for a minute that I thought it would be okay.

@SoloSideCousin

I guess this all makes sense. It's not like I'll have a meltdown and think he can't be redeemed over this, though. I'm not even trying to look for ways to make Kylo seem less "bad." I guess it just seems to me like his face shows the strain of his effort and he looks kinda dazed (like crazy insane), to answer your question @Force22 I guess I can also see some sort of "enjoyment," but only in a masochistic sort of dazed way. Haha kinda looks to me like his is on drugs or something and not fully present....it just doesn't seem like he's getting pure pleasure or enjoyment or triumph from it. I don't see that wicked grin of a classic villain. So I guess I agree essentially with what everyone is saying about him being crazy and also trying to hurt himself by hurting Finn here...or I am probably just crazy....and this post is a mess lol

@jakkusun

I don't see sadism at all. Intense focus, perhaps the rush of being in a fight, or even of being close to striking a winning blow, but not sadism or joy in causing pain. I don't even see crazy, to be honest--at least no more "crazy" than anyone would have to be to be in a sword fight after getting hit by a bowcaster.

I think I'm in the minority. I just don't see it when people say he's getting kicks specifically from hurting Finn. It just looks like a fight to me, and a pretty quick one.

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick. So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick. So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4 I hope they don't take the analogy further.

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick. So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4 I hope they don't take the analogy further.

@panki

I don't think they will. I think the snow fight killed a lot of birds with one stone. Magical fairytale forest sexual awakening. The cold "yin" domain of Ren. A cold desolate hell after the red Dante's inferno imagery post Han.

They'll need to get new imagery/settings for the next ones. I've learned on these boards that forests are for sexual awakening. What's the imagery for the "long day's journey into night" for Rey (and Kylo) going through their big tests in this episode? A cave? Like maybe those Mexican crystal caves they were talking about for an on-location shoot for Episode VIII. Luke went into Dagobah swamp and cave. I guess there was that Geonosis cave stuff in AOTC, but the Dagobah stuff was much better.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick.  So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4    I hope they don't take the analogy further.

@panki

I don't think they will.  I think the snow fight killed a lot of birds with one stone.  Magical fairytale forest sexual awakening.  The cold "yin" domain of Ren.  A cold desolate hell after the red Dante's inferno imagery post Han.

They'll need to get new imagery/settings for the next ones.  I've learned on these boards that forests are for sexual awakening.  What's the imagery for the "long day's journey into night" for Rey (and Kylo) going through their big tests in this episode? A cave? Like maybe those Mexican crystal caves they were talking about for an on-location shoot for Episode VIII.  Luke went into Dagobah swamp and cave.  I guess there was that Geonosis cave stuff in AOTC, but the Dagobah stuff was much better.

@SoloSideCousin

The caves in Mexico would be an interesting location...they look identical to the caves with kyber crystals.....I remember that in SW canon, the Kyber crystal caves can sometimes be challenging.....if you don't overcome the trials and collect your crystal within a certain time frame, you can be sealed in the cave.....maybe Rey and Kylo have a confrontation in a cave.



I also read they're looking at Grottos in Mexico....so maybe they'll have Rey and Kylo stranded in some Cenote....those locations look really beautiful....if they show a romance, this could be the place for it.....

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick.  So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4    I hope they don't take the analogy further.

@panki

I don't think they will.  I think the snow fight killed a lot of birds with one stone.  Magical fairytale forest sexual awakening.  The cold "yin" domain of Ren.  A cold desolate hell after the red Dante's inferno imagery post Han.

They'll need to get new imagery/settings for the next ones.  I've learned on these boards that forests are for sexual awakening.  What's the imagery for the "long day's journey into night" for Rey (and Kylo) going through their big tests in this episode? A cave? Like maybe those Mexican crystal caves they were talking about for an on-location shoot for Episode VIII.  Luke went into Dagobah swamp and cave.  I guess there was that Geonosis cave stuff in AOTC, but the Dagobah stuff was much better.

@SoloSideCousin

The caves in Mexico would be an interesting location...they look identical to the caves with kyber crystals.....I remember that in SW canon, the Kyber crystal caves can sometimes be challenging.....if you don't overcome the trials and collect your crystal within a certain time frame, you can be sealed in the cave.....maybe Rey and Kylo have a confrontation in a cave.



I also read they're looking at Grottos in Mexico....so maybe they'll have Rey and Kylo stranded in some Cenote....those locations look really beautiful....if they show a romance, this could be the place for it.....

@panki

That's gorgeous ... and it looks very lush ... Good for the joining of yin and yang. I really, really want the Ren and Rey get stranded thing. :-)

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick.  So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4    I hope they don't take the analogy further.

@panki

I don't think they will.  I think the snow fight killed a lot of birds with one stone.  Magical fairytale forest sexual awakening.  The cold "yin" domain of Ren.  A cold desolate hell after the red Dante's inferno imagery post Han.

They'll need to get new imagery/settings for the next ones.  I've learned on these boards that forests are for sexual awakening.  What's the imagery for the "long day's journey into night" for Rey (and Kylo) going through their big tests in this episode? A cave? Like maybe those Mexican crystal caves they were talking about for an on-location shoot for Episode VIII.  Luke went into Dagobah swamp and cave.  I guess there was that Geonosis cave stuff in AOTC, but the Dagobah stuff was much better.

@SoloSideCousin

The caves in Mexico would be an interesting location...they look identical to the caves with kyber crystals.....I remember that in SW canon, the Kyber crystal caves can sometimes be challenging.....if you don't overcome the trials and collect your crystal within a certain time frame, you can be sealed in the cave.....maybe Rey and Kylo have a confrontation in a cave.



I also read they're looking at Grottos in Mexico....so maybe they'll have Rey and Kylo stranded in some Cenote....those locations look really beautiful....if they show a romance, this could be the place for it.....

@panki

That's gorgeous ... and it looks very lush ... Good for the joining of yin and yang. I really, really want the Ren and Rey get stranded thing. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

If they are following the patterns of the OT and PT, the romantic pair will definitely get stuck somewhere together......

PT= Lake Country on Naboo
OT= Asteroid Belt

And Letter Never Sent is also about people getting stranded....it really makes me think Kylo and Rey are going to be stranded somewhere.....Finn and KMT would be getting to know each other and riding the space horse so he can't be stuck with Rey....and Poe hasn't even met Rey yet....so it has to be Kylo.

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick.  So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4    I hope they don't take the analogy further.

@panki

I don't think they will.  I think the snow fight killed a lot of birds with one stone.  Magical fairytale forest sexual awakening.  The cold "yin" domain of Ren.  A cold desolate hell after the red Dante's inferno imagery post Han.

They'll need to get new imagery/settings for the next ones.  I've learned on these boards that forests are for sexual awakening.  What's the imagery for the "long day's journey into night" for Rey (and Kylo) going through their big tests in this episode? A cave? Like maybe those Mexican crystal caves they were talking about for an on-location shoot for Episode VIII.  Luke went into Dagobah swamp and cave.  I guess there was that Geonosis cave stuff in AOTC, but the Dagobah stuff was much better.

@SoloSideCousin

The caves in Mexico would be an interesting location...they look identical to the caves with kyber crystals.....I remember that in SW canon, the Kyber crystal caves can sometimes be challenging.....if you don't overcome the trials and collect your crystal within a certain time frame, you can be sealed in the cave.....maybe Rey and Kylo have a confrontation in a cave.



I also read they're looking at Grottos in Mexico....so maybe they'll have Rey and Kylo stranded in some Cenote....those locations look really beautiful....if they show a romance, this could be the place for it.....

@panki

That's gorgeous ... and it looks very lush ... Good for the joining of yin and yang. I really, really want the Ren and Rey get stranded thing. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

If they are following the patterns of the OT and PT, the romantic pair will definitely get stuck somewhere together......

PT= Lake Country on Naboo
OT= Asteroid Belt

And Letter Never Sent is also about people getting stranded....it really makes me think Kylo and Rey are going to be stranded somewhere.....Finn and KMT would be getting to know each other and riding the space horse so he can't be stuck with Rey....and Poe hasn't even met Rey yet....so it has to be Kylo.

@panki

Extended scenes with AD and DR are just going to rock. We got like 10 minutes in TFA. 20, 25, 30 minutes would be unbelievable!

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick.  So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4    I hope they don't take the analogy further.

@panki

I don't think they will.  I think the snow fight killed a lot of birds with one stone.  Magical fairytale forest sexual awakening.  The cold "yin" domain of Ren.  A cold desolate hell after the red Dante's inferno imagery post Han.

They'll need to get new imagery/settings for the next ones.  I've learned on these boards that forests are for sexual awakening.  What's the imagery for the "long day's journey into night" for Rey (and Kylo) going through their big tests in this episode? A cave? Like maybe those Mexican crystal caves they were talking about for an on-location shoot for Episode VIII.  Luke went into Dagobah swamp and cave.  I guess there was that Geonosis cave stuff in AOTC, but the Dagobah stuff was much better.

@SoloSideCousin

The caves in Mexico would be an interesting location...they look identical to the caves with kyber crystals.....I remember that in SW canon, the Kyber crystal caves can sometimes be challenging.....if you don't overcome the trials and collect your crystal within a certain time frame, you can be sealed in the cave.....maybe Rey and Kylo have a confrontation in a cave.



I also read they're looking at Grottos in Mexico....so maybe they'll have Rey and Kylo stranded in some Cenote....those locations look really beautiful....if they show a romance, this could be the place for it.....

@panki

I think they will have to build some sort of crops on set if they want to use that crystal caves, though I wish they can at least have some footage of the actual cave, because from what I know it's extremely hard to get down there and the temperature is very high that you will need a suit as in the picture but can only stay for a short time. Also there is a threat that those caves will soon be flooded with water

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:

It's like all hope is lost and he's in the 9th circle of hell and insane and the vision comes true and hope comes back to life.

Ninth Circle (Treachery)

The ninth and last circle is ringed by classical and Biblical giants, who perhaps symbolize pride and other spiritual flaws lying behind acts of treachery.

The traitors are distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind. There are four concentric zones (or "rounds") of traitors. These rounds correspond, in order of seriousness, to betrayal of family ties, betrayal of community ties, betrayal of guests, and betrayal of liege lords. In contrast to the popular image of Hell as fiery, the traitors are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus, with each group encased in ice to progressively greater depths.

[b]Round 1 is named Caïna, after Cain, who killed his own brother. Traitors to kindred are here immersed in the ice up to their chins – "the place / where shame can show itself"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#Ninth_Circle_.28Treachery.29

Brilliant! Hope indeed comes back to life and light from crossed sabers illuminates both. Unlike interrogation where only Rey was illuminated like a sun, here, both Rey and Kylo are illuminated.

@vaderito

Holy sith! I just said Ninth Circle of Hell in allusion to Dante's Inferno, remembering that one seemed to be the worst.  But look at what you have found here! Betrayal of family! Cain! The cold!!!!!!! I wonder if this is why JJ wanted a snow fight.  Now the imagery will seem even more significant!

@AnneNeville: The fight is surprisingly quick.  So is the fight between Rey and Kylo for that matter (especially when I fast forward through the DS stuff).

@SoloSideCousin

I'm not liking the fact that there is a Round 2, Round 3 and Round 4    I hope they don't take the analogy further.

@panki

I don't think they will.  I think the snow fight killed a lot of birds with one stone.  Magical fairytale forest sexual awakening.  The cold "yin" domain of Ren.  A cold desolate hell after the red Dante's inferno imagery post Han.

They'll need to get new imagery/settings for the next ones.  I've learned on these boards that forests are for sexual awakening.  What's the imagery for the "long day's journey into night" for Rey (and Kylo) going through their big tests in this episode? A cave? Like maybe those Mexican crystal caves they were talking about for an on-location shoot for Episode VIII.  Luke went into Dagobah swamp and cave.  I guess there was that Geonosis cave stuff in AOTC, but the Dagobah stuff was much better.

@SoloSideCousin

The caves in Mexico would be an interesting location...they look identical to the caves with kyber crystals.....I remember that in SW canon, the Kyber crystal caves can sometimes be challenging.....if you don't overcome the trials and collect your crystal within a certain time frame, you can be sealed in the cave.....maybe Rey and Kylo have a confrontation in a cave.



I also read they're looking at Grottos in Mexico....so maybe they'll have Rey and Kylo stranded in some Cenote....those locations look really beautiful....if they show a romance, this could be the place for it.....

@panki

That's gorgeous ... and it looks very lush ... Good for the joining of yin and yang. I really, really want the Ren and Rey get stranded thing. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

If they are following the patterns of the OT and PT, the romantic pair will definitely get stuck somewhere together......

PT= Lake Country on Naboo
OT= Asteroid Belt

And Letter Never Sent is also about people getting stranded....it really makes me think Kylo and Rey are going to be stranded somewhere.....Finn and KMT would be getting to know each other and riding the space horse so he can't be stuck with Rey....and Poe hasn't even met Rey yet....so it has to be Kylo.

@panki

Extended scenes with AD and DR are just going to rock. We got like 10 minutes in TFA. 20, 25, 30 minutes would be unbelievable!

@SoloSideCousin

I would be so so happy to have extended footage of Rey and Kylo..... would buy the extended version also just to get hold of that footage!!!! This is so strange....no character in a movie has moved me like this..sometimes I think they have used magic or something.....

@Sylvia Snow ..... maybe a crew will record footage but the actual filming could be in a studio? I'm not sure how they could do this.

On the gif Kylo vs Finn, I see Kylo in his "I am a Dark Lord, I will show him" moment. I would not call it sadistic. Sadistic would be him burning Finn left and right just for the fun of it.

I guess I am not difficult to convince for a redemption story. My view on people in general is very greyish. I don't believe in pure good and pure evil. If there is a believable backstory and signs of remoarse and actions to repent and of course good acting (but that's a given), I'll just flow with it. Especially if the murderer was traumatized as a child. I have seen a few episodes of Criminal Minds where the murderer had some tragic backstory and was conflicted with what he/she was doing and I went for it without questioning it and cried my eyes out. I believe that each of us - with maybe some exceptions - has the capacity for good and evil and it's a combination of personality, circumstances and influences from your surrounding that will steer you to light grey or dark grey. That's why I like Kylo. He represents us. The poor mortals who are neither heros nor villains.

This is a rant directed at nobody in particular, but I have to say it . . .

I am extremely confused about why people blame Kylo so much for his fight with Finn. Why is a brutal fight a bad, immoral thing in a film called Star Wars, especially when it's unfolding between two people on opposite sides of that war? One of whom is a traitor to boot? Why is Kylo reveling his own skills a sign of him being bad? Why is burning the saber arm of the guy fighting you "sadistic" (but Finn swiping Kylo's sword arm isn't . . .)? Why is a punch in the face over the line? What line? It's a swordfight in a movie called Star WARS.

Demme, it's a gosh-darned fight. A fight! That Finn willingly engages in, too! I mean, yes, Kylo finds them in the woods, yes, he calls Finn a traitor and says the saber belongs to him. But the movie just as clearly shows Finn's agency when he says "Come and get it!" then doesn't even WAIT for Kylo to "come and get" the saber. He charges!

Why are Kylo's actions here proof of evil, but Finn and Rey's are not? If we had been told that Kylo was the hero of this story, and Finn and Rey were the terrorists trying to blow up his base, would their actions seem markedly different than his? I think they took pains to show that Finn, Rey, and Kylo behaved in very similar ways towards each other in the fight. Even Rey's swipe across Kylo's front is the same stroke as the swipe Kylo uses across Finn's back.

There is no difference except for prejudice against the evil character and identification with Finn/Rey. If that weren't the case, then we wouldn't be hearing any nonsense about how this Finn/Kylo fight represents Kylo's attempts to torture and humiliate poor Finn.

If people were gonna judge Kylo as evil, I wish they'd focus on the more evil things he does, like the slaughter of the villagers. Or even the choking of Mitaka.

@AnneNeville Kylo's actions throughout the entire movie seem to have been perceived by people determined to loathe him as personal, not political or strategic. I think it's partly because he is the legacy child, but also because some of his actions are rash and reactionary - killing Lor San Tekka when he really didn't need to just because he mentioned his family, for example. I also happen to think that Kylo made a personal decision to take Rey over the droid, and like many here think it revealed his weakness. But to those who don't think he has feelings for Rey, it baffles me that they consider the interrogation scene 'rapey'. He's trying to get information out of someone, in war time. Did people care when Darth Vader did bad things? No they loved it. Maybe it was him unmasking that enrages them, it suddenly turns him into a young man who has been manipulated but is ultimately responsible for his own actions, and somehow that ruins the fun. They just want a big bad with no soul to come and kick a**.

@anneneville

for kylo i think a lot of normal movie laws are being reinterpreted. it's a massive bias.

he's the villain, so they seem to come from that perspective and are unable to see that he's another player just like everyone else. it's a massive bias.

@anneneville

I for one love every moment of Kylo kicking Finn's butt. Finn does many things throughout the movie that seem suspect to me and he is a grey character so my sympathy is not overly wasted on him.

jakkusun wrote:I need to catch up on the last couple pages, but what do you guys think of this gif:


source

So many people say he is smiling and enjoying it, especially when they compare it to the behind the scenes gifs of this moment, but I don't see the sadistic smile??? I feel like I am the only one who doesn't see sadism and enjoyment here :/. I don't think this face is like the bts gif, either. Idk am I just crazy?

@jakkusun

I know I'm late, but I don't see a sadistic smile, but I do see him enjoying it as you see him run his tongue along his teeth as the camera pans around them, just before he pushes his lightsaber's crossguard into Finn's shoulder.

spacebaby45678 wrote:@anneneville

I for one love every moment of Kylo kicking Finn's butt. Finn does many things throughout the movie that seem suspect to me and he is a grey character so my sympathy is not overly wasted on him.

@spacebaby45678
Shooting up the Stormtroopers after awakening because of overwhelming compassion for a dying Stormtrooper is 100x worse writing than AshGate2k16 (which was left vague in the finished product). I'm not expecting great things from Finn. My favourite scenario would involve him being the big hero of the Resistance, liberating the Stormtroopers and bringing down the First Order.

What do you guys think Rey is going to call Kylo? Most seem to call him Ren... Snoke calls him Kylo Ren. I'm thinking just "Kylo"... but of course she'll very likely resort to "Ben" eventually. I don't want him to revert to being weak Ben Solo who fell for Snoke's manipulation, but I also don't want him to be Walt Jr. telling everybody he wants to be called "Flynn" in a whiny voice after his redemption arc.