Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

DeeBee wrote:@ISeAnIsland - thanks for the heads up!
Sorry I just realised I took this thread off topic.. got distracted by that stunning gold bathrobe

@DeeBee

And now I have Shirley Bassey singing Goldfinger in my head!

AppleCrumble122 wrote:That blurry image of Kylo kneeling is from the Topps card. And yes, he has his scar on it. That one is just too blurry to see it, it's more clear in this image.

@AppleCrumble122

Is he wearing his belt?

Night Huntress wrote:OT- am I the only one in this fandom not into Harry Potter?

@Night Huntress

Definitely not!  I am not into Harry Potter at all.  I've seen a few of the movies, but I'm not even sure how many.  They all kind of run together in my mind.  I just could never really get into them.  No offense to anyone who does like them.  They were just never really my thing.

WhatGirl wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:That blurry image of Kylo kneeling is from the Topps card. And yes, he has his scar on it. That one is just too blurry to see it, it's more clear in this image.

@AppleCrumble122

Is he wearing his belt?

@WhatGirl

What a beautiful man.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:That blurry image of Kylo kneeling is from the Topps card. And yes, he has his scar on it. That one is just too blurry to see it, it's more clear in this image.

@AppleCrumble122

Wow...he looks amazing!!!!!

WhatGirl wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:That blurry image of Kylo kneeling is from the Topps card. And yes, he has his scar on it. That one is just too blurry to see it, it's more clear in this image.

@AppleCrumble122

Is he wearing his belt?

@WhatGirl

From his position, doesn't look like he's wearing the belt. But I can't tell for sure. I'm simply happy he has his scar.

Kyla Ren wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:OT- am I the only one in this fandom not into Harry Potter?

@Night Huntress

Definitely not!  I am not into Harry Potter at all.  I've seen a few of the movies, but I'm not even sure how many.  They all kind of run together in my mind.  I just could never really get into them.  No offense to anyone who does like them.  They were just never really my thing.

@Kyla Ren

They did make stars of Daniel Radcliffe,Emma Watson and Domnaill Gleeson.

I just realized what that Topps cars photo reminded me of, it’s his school/team sport photo for the high school yearbook

snufkin wrote:I just realized what that Topps cars photo reminded me of, it’s his school/team sport photo for the high school yearbook

@snufkin

Lol! OMG! You're right!!!!

@SoloSideCousin - I don't know if the non-Americans here have something similar for youth/school sports teams where you get that type of photo taken (I still have mine from the girls' soccer/football team I played on from ages 9-13), but I started laughing once the connection clicked in my head. And we know from some of the actors they considered for Finn that somebody on that production team is a Friday Night Lights fan.

snufkin wrote:@SoloSideCousin - I don't know if the non-Americans here have something similar for youth/school sports teams where you get that type of photo taken (I still have mine from the girls' soccer/football team I played on from ages 9-13), but I started laughing once the connection clicked in my head. And we know from some of the actors they considered for Finn that somebody on that production team is a Friday Night Lights fan.

@snufkin

Actually the other thing I thought of when I saw this Kylo picture was some of his model work, like the Gap campaign. So sinister, The Gap.

Hi! I would like to continue the  discussion that we had about Kylo's promo pictures on this thread a few days ago.

I had pointed out that I saw a strange duality in his promo pics that led me to assume that something might happen to him in the course of TLJ.  Here is a very interesting post that I found on tumblr yesterday, focusing on Kylo's eyes in his marketing promo pics
http://thebensolo.tumblr.com/post/166814303083/eye-wars-as-i-was-randomly-editing-pictures-of


Obviously, I am not the only one to be unsettled by this strange duality and its possible implications. I find the post interesting because the person points how different Kylo's eyes appear from one promo pics to another, which is obviously not the case for other characters.

In a previous, I had pointed out that I saw very two opposite Kylo Ren in this marketing campaign and that I found this duality extremely strange.

On the one hand:




To sum up:



On the other hand:




To sum up:


IMO there is no doubt that Kylo is even more torn apart by the beginning of TLJ and that he is on redemption road during the movie. Still,  this what we get in the official poster:


And like this person on tumblr, I am unsettled by this duality, which reminds me of the following situations in the case of dual personality:
1) Evil "Prince Louis" vs. nice " Prince Philippe" in The Man in the iron mask

==> Explanation of the dual personality : they"re twins
2) Evil Peter Parker vs. nice Peter Parker in Spiderman 3

==> Explanation of the dual personality: Peter is possessed by Venom
3) Evil King Gwangjong vs. Prince Wang So in Scarlet Heart Ryeo

==> Explanation of the dual personality: King Gwangjong is Prince Wang So from the future
4) in TLJ?



Personally, I go for the most optimistic scenario for the end of the ST:   Kylo will be ultimately redeemed, that he and Rey will genuinely fall in love, that their feeling and they will live happily ever after. However IMO there is definitely something odd about his trajectory in TLJ : the shot of him leading the FO firetroops on Crait is a good example. But I don't believe in a scenario in which Kylo would become eviler and eviler by himself.

In all these cases, we have a identical persons with dual personality. So what does this imply for Kylo to have this duality? Maybe it's overanalysis because it simply means that Kylo is a complex character. Still, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Snoke is behind this duality like this person suggests:


And what enable to perceive the difference between the real person (Prince Philippe, Peter Parker and Wang So) and his evil self (Prince Louis, Venom and Gwangjong)  ?

The answer is all in the eyes, because the eyes are the windows of the soul. Kylo's stare (and the cape) are precisely the reason why this duality bothers me? And this brings me to the following idea. Let's suppose that Kylo would end up possessed by Snoke by the end of TLJ and saved from his grip by Rey at some point. How could Rey recognize that Ben is really Ben

Given the many parallel with BATB, maybe like this    

I know that in the context of BATB, it doesn't make much sense to have Belle hesitating...

...but in a scenario  of Ben possessed by Snoke why not

reylo1992 wrote:IMO there is no doubt that Kylo is even more torn apart by the beginning of TLJ and that he is on redemption road during the movie.

@reylo1992
This is the part I completely disagree with. Kylo won't be more torn apart than ever at the beginning of the movie, he'll be angry and frustrated and desperate to prove himself to Snoke, pissed as all hell that his master is still disapproving of him after he went so far. He'll also be internally grieving his loss and will be disgusted in himself, more disillusioned with Snoke than ever, but far from ready to let go. The mask-smashing is not representative of Kylo attempting to do away with his persona, it's representative of him attempting to denounce his insecurities and go forward full-force to prove to Snoke that he is a worthy apprentice once and for all.

After that he'll try to do some evil sh**, get further knocked off base, probably get violently and emotionally confronted by an even more pissed off Rey who just won't understand how someone born with everything she would have given anything to have could just throw it all away for nothing, etc. He's going to change in this movie. Being desperate to prove himself at the beginning never = he proves himself, rids himself of all conflict, goes full evullll, gets everything he wants, the end.

IMHO, attempting to time-stamp scenes and promos based on the cape makes no sense. Kylo will be wearing the cape in one of his first scenes when he still has the helmet. I presume he'll wear it up until a point, after which it'll come off for good.

We also have Rian Johnson's quotes about Kylo and Han: "Han, the ghost of — well, not literally... I don’t want to misguide. I have to be very careful with my words here. But a figurative ghost of Han had to be present throughout this entire film.”

Han's ghost is present throughout the movie, but Kylo's just going to denounce that ghost, prove it wrong and run off cackling into the sunset? Yeah, no.

I realize that your post was more about Kylo being possessed by Snoke, which I see as a possibility, but I got the impression you were also posting your concerns about Kylo's arc going in a really nonsensical direction.

@Frolickingfizzgig Yes, all of this. A logical narrative progression and character development.

I think Kylo will start to change when hes ordered to kill Leia. And Im certain thats at the beginning of the film because of the condition of the facial wound. Im absolutely certain he wont pull that trigger - because he already killed his father and rather than stopping his pain it had exactly the opposite effect. Kylo is already turning against Snoke, because he now knows he lied to him. Just as Rey is going to turn against Luke because he is not what she thought hed be. They will have no one but each other.

@reylo1992

Kylo can try to be evil, but it ain't gonna go like this, he'll be even more torn apart, because he's simply not like this no matter what he's done killing his father, had a hand in destroying Luke's Academy. If Snoke possesed him ... which I think only takes agenda from him and it's a cheap way of making Kylo full evil without being himself full evil. It's certainly a possibility to consider after Serkis' and Driver's comments. There is something odd with Kylo at the end of the movie [presumably]. From a confused, angry, self hating individual to more-sure-of-himself, confident character. Like you said, eyes are the window to person's soul.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:IMO there is no doubt that Kylo is even more torn apart by the beginning of TLJ and that he is on redemption road during the movie.

@reylo1992
This is the part I completely disagree with. Kylo won't be more torn apart than ever at the beginning of the movie, he'll be angry and frustrated and desperate to prove himself to Snoke, pissed as all hell that his master is still disapproving of him after he went so far. He'll also be internally grieving his loss and will be disgusted in himself, more disillusioned with Snoke than ever, but far from ready to let go. The mask-smashing is not representative of Kylo attempting to do away with his persona, it's representative of him attempting to denounce his insecurities and go forward full-force to prove to Snoke that he is a worthy apprentice once and for all.

After that he'll try to do some evil sh**, get further knocked off base, probably get violently and emotionally confronted by an even more pissed off Rey who just won't understand how someone born with everything she would have given anything to have could just throw it all away for nothing, etc. He's going to change in this movie. Being desperate to prove himself at the beginning never = he proves himself, rids himself of all conflict, goes full evullll, gets everything he wants, the end.

IMHO, attempting to time-stamp scenes and promos based on the cape makes no sense. Kylo will be wearing the cape in one of his first scenes when he still has the helmet. I presume he'll wear it up until a point, after which it'll come off for good.

We also have Rian Johnson's quotes about Kylo and Han: "Han, the ghost of — well, not literally... I don’t want to misguide. I have to be very careful with my words here. But a figurative ghost of Han had to be present throughout this entire film.”

Han's ghost is present throughout the movie, but Kylo's just going to denounce that ghost, prove it wrong and run off cackling into the sunset? Yeah, no.

I realize that your post was more about Kylo being possessed by Snoke, which I see as a possibility, but I got the impression you were also posting your concerns about Kylo's arc going in a really nonsensical direction.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree about what you say about Kylo being angry, pissed off, desperate to prove himself, etc... and thus trying to act more than ever like a Vader number 2  at the  beginning of the movie. So indeed, maybe that the marketing showing him as the self-confident, petulant and determined Dark warlord are meant to emphasize this side of him. I also agree that he will be shaken the consequences of his actions and constantly "pursued" by Han's ghost, thus the marketing showing him as a little lost boy. But he will also be shown like an Disney hero as a teenager entering into adulthood by trying to rebel against his mentor. So I guess that like i.e. Rapunzel who lived for years under Gothel's grip and brainwashing, Kylo will experience a journey that will make him question the path he went 6 years ago. Thus, he'll probably more than ever torn apart between his allegiance to Snoke and his growing bond with Rey. That's why, I have no doubt that he will definitely go on redemption road, especially it leads him to save Rey from Snoke and thus choose her over him. Like Rapunzel, I guess that he will make stand up at some point and clearly say to Snoke that he won't let him use him for his power ever again and decide to leave the FO to join the Resistance.  End of the story: the major stake of the ST is solved with the last Skywalker back home, he saved the girl so their relationship can evolve to something more, the Resistance gets a powerful ally who has very good knowledge about Snoke's and the FO's weakness. I don't say that it is impossible but somehow that sounds a little too easy for a redemption road and too reminiscent to Vader's redemption.

And let's keep in mind what we pointed out regarding the timeline:
1) It seems that Supremacy crashes before the last stage of the Crait battle
==> What will Snoke do after the destruction of his ship? Simply leaving the battle defeated like a dog with its tail between its leg?  
2) Kylo will lead the FO firetroops on Crait
==> Why would Kylo still be on the FO after choosing to save Rey instead of letting her torture by Snoke?

That's why I think that something key will happen between Snoke and Kylo after he saves Rey. That's why, I rather put my money on a Kylo/Snoke confrontation between the crash of Supremacy and the beginning of the last stage of the battle on Crait.

Rapunzel: "You were wrong about the world. And you were wrong about me! And I will never ever let you use my hair again!"

Gothel: "You want me to be the bad guy? Fine! Now, I am the bad guy!"


I also agree that marketing can't be used as an ultimate proof to prove that a theory is right. Still, I am relieved that I am not the only one who sees a strange duality. And I know that Kylo is a very complex character so I am not surprised that the promo pics show different sides of his personality. Like the person who wrote this tumblr post, I am unsettled by the fact that I personally don't recognize Kylo in the marketing where he is shown as a fearsome warlord. Maybe I am wrong about it but it gives me the strange sensation that it's him but not really him.

I find that tumblr post interesting because it's not about a random marketing pic. This is IMO an important detail in the official TLJ poster, knowing that LF certainly thought every single detail before releasing it:

I don't know what you guys thinks about Kylo's stare but I tend to agree with the person who pointed out this. I personally find Kylo's stare odd because LF could have simply given him his normal brown eyes. So why did they gave him this blue-grey reflection in his eyes? Maybe they wanted to emphasize that Kylo will evolve in a grey area. Everybody can interpret this detail very differently. Personally, I find that this blue grey reflection gives him a cold evil stare...that IMO doesn't fit very well with what we know from him so far. And like this person on tumblr, I think that this cold evil stare is closer to Snoke's stare than Ben's (sad-puppy)'s stare

There are a lot of things that are difficult to reconcile regarding Kylo. Since I go for the most optimistic scenario for the end of TLJ, I can't believe that Kylo would go eviler and eviler. It just makes no sense in regard to his final redemption and in regard to Reylo. Even if he is redeemed in the end, LF wouldn't allow to have the heroine falling in love with someone who got eviler and eviler throughout the ST. This would bring water to the mill of antis who denounce Reylo as a toxic ship. So I agree with you: no way that Kylo gets genuinely eviler. But indeed my post was more about the possibility of Kylo ending up possessed by/one with Snoke in some way. This is no proof but I try to point out several elements that IMO could sustain this theory. IMO it is perfectly possible to have Kylo on redemption road throughout the movie, making clear to the audience that he takes the decision to leave Snoke and have him unable to change side because Snoke won't let him go. Thus, we get a character who from not being Vader yet indeed becomes the Vader the GA expected..simply not the way the GA expected because it would be against his own will.

And does it make an illogical character development? Personally, I don't think so because the problem with the GA is that a lot of people haven't identified Kylo as a victim of Snoke. Kylo would have never been considered as responsible of Han's death if TFA would have shown his backstory like in any Disney where the Princess is shown from the very beginning as the target of the main villain like this is the case in Tangled, Sleeping Beauty and Snow-White. The problem is that the GA didn't identify Snoke as the Disney villain and has no clue yet about his motivations. And like in any Disney movie, there must be at some point the lowest point where the villain achieves his evil plan regarding his target. When Aurora ends up asleep, it is because Maleficient's evil plan succeeded. If Snow White ends up poisoned, it's because Evil Queen's evil plan succeeded. So what is Snoke's evil plan and what will he succeed, knowing that he will oviously lose the first round with the destruction of Supremacy.? How will he turn the table and achieve his agenda?

Regarding Kylos eyes....I did notice some of the promo pictures of Rey made it look as if she had blue eyes when we all know Daisys eyes are hazel green. http://assets1.ignimgs.com/2017/04/14/rey-1280-1492182310708_400w.jpg

@reylo1992: Don't want to spoil the fun... but I think you/we read sometimes too much into it.

Night Huntress wrote:@reylo1992: Don't want to spoil the fun... but I think you/we read sometimes too much into it.

@Night Huntress

Possible

reylo1992 wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:@reylo1992: Don't want to spoil the fun... but I think you/we read sometimes too much into it.  

@Night Huntress

Possible

@reylo1992

I don't want to diminish your theory... on the contrary I have to compliment your sharp mind... and if this is what's going to happen in the movie I will apologize.

I already mentioned - I don't like the "Kylo will be possessed by Snoke" scenario but I like to explain why:

The emotional journey Kylo/Ben will going through is already very complex and with many ups and downs... to add something like "being possessed by an evil creature" would just be too much (for me). AND, - and that's the main reason I don't like the idea at all- I want all decisions of Kylo... the good and the bad ones be undoubtedly his own. I want this story to be about his way back to the right path and not some Star Wars version of the exorcist. But I know it's not about what I want...  

However - you are right that there is two sides of Kylo we see in the marketing - the conflicted puppy eyed, but also the determined / aggressive... I think it's both him (and only him) but in different stage of his emotional journey.
I'm confused about the timeline myself. Because at the moment it looks like he goes from aggressive to conflicted then redeemed and back to determined/aggressive. But there are plausible explantations for that without him literally becoming Snoke.

Night Huntress wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:@reylo1992: Don't want to spoil the fun... but I think you/we read sometimes too much into it.  

@Night Huntress

Possible

@reylo1992

I don't want to diminish your theory... on the contrary I have to compliment your sharp mind... and if this is what's going to happen in the movie I will apologize.

I already mentioned - I don't like the "Kylo will be possessed by Snoke" scenario but I like to explain why:

The emotional journey Kylo/Ben will going through is already very complex and with many ups and downs... to add something like "being possessed by an evil creature" would just be too much (for me). AND, - and that's the main reason I don't like the idea at all- I want all decisions of Kylo... the good and the bad ones be undoubtedly his own. I want this story to be about his way back to the right path and not some Star Wars version of the exorcist. But I know it's not about what I want...  

However - you are right that there is two sides of Kylo we see in the marketing - the conflicted puppy eyed, but also the determined / aggressive... I think it's both him (and only him) but in different stage of his emotional journey.
I'm confused about the timeline myself. Because at the moment it looks like he goes from aggressive to conflicted then redeemed and back to determined/aggressive. But there are plausible explantations for that without him literally becoming Snoke.

@Night Huntress

No problem

I am not married to my theories to the point that I would consider it's the only right path to go and would rule out any other option. I never mean to be adamant and say : "this is it! And this can't be otherwise"There are thousand of possibilities to make a good story and my perception of these possibilities are necessarily limited by my headcanons. My last posts are openly Snoke/Kylo centric because this is the dynamic I am the most interested in in regard to the implications for Kylo's fate and for romantic Reylo. From a Disney perspective, I try to figure out what his motivations could be, how his agenda could drive the TLJ sotry and how he could succeed in achieving his evil plan.


I agree that the whole marketing and timeline about Kylo is pretty confusing regarding his trajectory. We can't be sure about anything so of course I remain cautious about my own theories and I don't mean to draw conclusion from a single picture. There are only two things where I feel confident:
-1) For the ST: no doubt for me that Kylo will be ultimately redeemed and Reylo will be endgame
-2) For TLJ:  if we are right about the timeline regarding the battle on Crait (1st: destruction of Supremacy; 2nd:last stage of the final battle), I don't imagine Snoke leaving the battle humiliated by the destruction of his ship and the FO turning the table despite their complete disorder (Supremacy out; Phasma out; Kylo as a traitor, etc...) without the decisive involvement of their Supreme Leader. So from point A to point B, that gives a big room for speculation...


But in the end, what matters to me is something that makes sense. I will be completely okay if Rian made a completely different story than the one I imagine. If his choices regarding the narrative make sense, I have no reason to say "This is not what I expected/wanted so it's BS". So I understand that you/we wouldn't like that kind of scenario in which Ben would be possessed by Snoke. I also understand that it's problematic because he wouldn't have the control of his fate and his own redemption.

@Reylo1992
I'll say right here and now that I'm not going to bow down to TLJ if I don't like the direction of Kylo's character. I became invested in the Sequel Trilogy largely because I foresaw an epic redemption arc playing out in the future. I like SW as a franchise because of the "for everybody" themes of family, hope, optimism and redemption it pushes. Han and Leia's only child murdering his father and then being rewarded with everything he wanted in the form of power, no-conflict and confidence is utter nonsense in my eyes. To me, that's not SW. I don't have the same "whatever goes" attitude as you. I'll have no problem saying goodbye to this trilogy if TLJ is a disappointment, and that's okay. I didn't sign any document dictating that I have to enjoy every movie LF produces. I love Kylo's arc in TFA, but there has to be more now. He already made the worst choice he ever could have made, time to see something new.

FWIW, everything so far in the marketing and trailers puts us in a very positive place. Overthinking can just spin you round and round in circles until you can't make sense of any of it anymore.

@reylo1992 I like your analysis and I like the idea of duality/thorn Kylo.

I think it's possible. It could also be that the evil/aggressive/cape wearing Kylo is from the beginning, and that the movie uses visual cues to show his transition.

Cause you know, some of the SW audience, really need visual cues, and perhaps some neon signs and stuff. Pablo said Kylo would have something to prove. I don't know, it could be Kylo in the beginning, before a transformation. In this case the transformation would be very visible, which might be a good idea in order to cue in a big portion of the audience.

Or else there could be torn/conflicted Kylo throughout TLJ and there would be visual cues for this conflicted personality.

We'll have to see. But we're getting there.

I'm with @Frolickingfizzgig on this. They said so many times that ST movies are part of 9 movies, not just 3 movies. IMO, Kylo is the character who brings all 9 together. There's a reason why he's now so much like Anakin even though he technically started like Vader (already masked and destroyed the new Jedi). I believe in Reverse Anakin trajectory - that family love was his downfall because it wasn't unconditional but that romantic love with save him cause it will be unconditional which is the reverse of PT and OT and therefore creates a full circle and rhymes.

We'll see but I think that uber-meta "This is not goign to go the way you think" is meant for wishful thinking headcanons rather than proper reading of TFA. otherwise, it would be shocks for the sake of shocks and not something that comes from narrative.