Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

What I have noticed from the pictures that you have put up @reylo1992, is that there is serious progression of his wound healing. The hand scene shows the most healed scar, and then I think the second most healed scar is when he has the red lightsaber. Those cape scars are not that healed at all. They look like they are just after he takes off the band-aid, so they are earlier. The scar healing creates a timeline, and your most healed scar (the hand scene) has him super puppy dog eyed. He is progressively getter better throughout the movie, not darker.

SoloSideCousin wrote:What I have noticed from the pictures that you have put up @reylo1992, is that there is serious progression of his wound healing. The hand scene shows the most healed scar, and then I think the second most healed scar is when he has the red lightsaber. Those cape scars are not that healed at all. They look like they are just after he takes off the band-aid, so they are earlier. The scar healing creates a timeline, and your most healed scar (the hand scene) has him super puppy dog eyed. He is progressively getter better throughout the movie, not darker.

@SoloSideCousin

I think you are onto something. Scar healing may be a better indicator of timeline than less reliable details such as his cape or Rey's bruise. because scar requires consistency. Like, that thing is super important.

I think that Kylo's redemption is going to be a bumpy road and if I drew up a graph it wouldn't be one smooth curve going up. That shot of Kylo leading stormtroopers, which seems to bother many people, is of no bother if one doesn't assume that he abandons the dark side halfway, teams up with Rey and then it's just redemption all the way (for example).

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Reylo1992
I'll say right here and now that I'm not going to bow down to TLJ if I don't like the direction of Kylo's character. I became invested in the Sequel Trilogy largely because I foresaw an epic redemption arc playing out in the future. I like SW as a franchise because of the "for everybody" themes of family, hope, optimism and redemption it pushes. Han and Leia's only child murdering his father and then being rewarded with everything he wanted in the form of power, no-conflict and confidence is utter nonsense in my eyes. To me, that's not SW. I don't have the same "whatever goes" attitude as you. I'll have no problem saying goodbye to this trilogy if TLJ is a disappointment, and that's okay. I didn't sign any document dictating that I have to enjoy every movie LF produces. I love Kylo's arc in TFA, but there has to be more now. He already made the worst choice he ever could have made, time to see something new.

FWIW, everything so far in the marketing and trailers puts us in a very positive place. Overthinking can just spin you round and round in circles until you can't make sense of any of it anymore.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I completely agree with you that having Kylo "being rewarded with everything he wanted in the form of power, no-conflict and confidence is utter nonsense". I can't agree more that having Kylo becoming eviler and eviler makes absolutely no sense for the character development. We've spent two years saying how nonsense it would be to have the only Skywalker child dying unredeemed by the end of the ST.

I think that where we disagree is that we don't share the same point of view regarding the timing and the road to Kylo's redemption. Sure I have no problem with Kylo being a "reversed Anakin" through the idea of "he loved the power until he loved the girl" and  I have no problem either with Kylo well engaged on the road to redemption in TLJ. But I tend to think that there could be a major obstacle on his road to redemption that wouldn't allow his redemption until the end of the ST and that doesn't bother me in regard to his overall redemption arc.

My approach of the ST is heavily influenced by the idea that SW works like a typical Disney fairytale where a villain targets/curses a Prince(ss) for a specific (evil) purpose. Thus, I see Kylo as the Princess targeted by the villain and that headcanon heavily influences my perception about how I see things turn for him in TLJ. I am aware that this perception can lead to wrong/uncomplete interpretations regarding the movie and that a lot of people don't share the same point of view as me.

I agree with you that love, friendship, redemption are important themes of SW and this is also is the case for Disney fairytales. But I would add that there is another important component both in SW and Disney fairytales : fatality. Mother Gothel decided that she should use Rapunzel for her power : nobody could prevent her from kidnapping the Princess. Maleficent decided that Aurora would prick her finger: nobody could prevent it no matter how the good fairies tried to protect her. Evil Queen decided to poison Snow White: nobody could prevent it no matter how her friends tried to protect her. Sleeping Beauty is a very good example that you can't prevent a Disney villain from achieving his evil plan but it doesn't mean that any ray of hope is still possible after that  


That's why I tend to think that if Snoke has something specific in mind with Kylo, nobody will be able to prevent him from achieving his agenda no matter what is Kylo's character development during TLJ. You point out very well that in TFA Kylo did the wrong choice by killing Han although he had the chance to leave the FO, and I think it is possible that in TLJ he will make the right choice by saving Rey but won't be given the chance to leave the FO this time.  

The problem with Snoke is that his motivations remain unclear contrary to any Disney fairytale in which the villain's motivations are  set up from the very beginning. Thus it is easy  for the audience to identify the villain, the victim and the major stake of the story.  Had J.J.Abrams inserted Snoke's lines from the TFA novel in the movie, I guess that Kylo as a character and his patricide would have been perceived differently.

Saracene wrote:I think that Kylo's redemption is going to be a bumpy road and if I drew up a graph it wouldn't be one smooth curve going up. That shot of Kylo leading stormtroopers, which seems to bother many people, is of no bother if one doesn't assume that he abandons the dark side halfway, teams up with Rey and then it's just redemption all the way (for example).

@Saracene

As always, it depends on the kind of story they're telling. If the story is mainly about Kylo's redemption, I would expect a bumpy, winding, tortured road. But if the story is still focused on Rey, with a lot of other stuff figuring into the plot besides, I would honestly expect something a lot more simple.

If Star Wars has taught us anything, it's that simple but well-executed twists can be game-changing.

vaderito wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:What I have noticed from the pictures that you have put up @reylo1992, is that there is serious progression of his wound healing. The hand scene shows the most healed scar, and then I think the second most healed scar is when he has the red lightsaber. Those cape scars are not that healed at all. They look like they are just after he takes off the band-aid, so they are earlier. The scar healing creates a timeline, and your most healed scar (the hand scene) has him super puppy dog eyed. He is progressively getter better throughout the movie, not darker.

@SoloSideCousin

I think you are onto something. Scar healing may be a better indicator of timeline than less reliable details such as his cape or Rey's bruise. because scar requires consistency. Like, that thing is super important.

@vaderito

Good remarks regarding the scar healing process

I do think that Kylo's redemption is going to be more intertwined with the narrative and start earlier than Vader's did. However, I never expected him to be completely heading toward the right side by the end of TLJ. My prediction is that he's going to end TLJ in a "no man's land" of sorts, alienated from all simple choice. But it would be obvious that from there, he would build up to making the right choices over the course of IX. With the change hopefully centered around a strengthened understanding of and relationship with Rey that starts to develop in TLJ.

I just feel like there's way too much going on in TLJ to fit in a full Kylo heel-turn. But if what Rian said about knowing who to root for by the end is right, it will probably be abundantly clear that Kylo will head in a redemption direction in IX. If that's the plan.

Now, if it DOES turn out that IX is going to split into two movies (which despite the tradition of Star Wars having trilogies, I'm not going to rule out. I could easily see Disney wanting to stretch this out as long as possible), then we have room for ups and downs a la Zuko's redemption arc for Kylo. If that turns out to be the case, then a good number of predictions for the pacing of the ST would be thrown off!

ZioRen wrote:I do think that Kylo's redemption is going to be more intertwined with the narrative and start earlier than Vader's did. However, I never expected him to be completely heading toward the right side by the end of TLJ. My prediction is that he's going to end TLJ in a "no man's land" of sorts, alienated from all simple choice. But it would be obvious that from there, he would build up to making the right choices over the course of IX. With the change hopefully centered around a strengthened understanding of and relationship with Rey that starts to develop in TLJ.

@ZioRen

Yeah that's my feeling as well. I think he also might be in a pickle of some sort. I mean, I know that Rian said that TLJ will not end with cliffhangers (or something to this effect), but at the same time, a middle chapter of a continuous story can't help but leave loose ends by its nature.

Saracene wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I do think that Kylo's redemption is going to be more intertwined with the narrative and start earlier than Vader's did. However, I never expected him to be completely heading toward the right side by the end of TLJ. My prediction is that he's going to end TLJ in a "no man's land" of sorts, alienated from all simple choice. But it would be obvious that from there, he would build up to making the right choices over the course of IX. With the change hopefully centered around a strengthened understanding of and relationship with Rey that starts to develop in TLJ.

@ZioRen

Yeah that's my feeling as well. I think he also might be in a pickle of some sort. I mean, I know that Rian said that TLJ will not end with cliffhangers (or something to this effect), but at the same time, a middle chapter of a continuous story can't help but leave loose ends by its nature.

@Saracene

Well, I know it gets maybe overblown out of proportions but Adam said that Kylo's ending is suprising or unexpected in one interview. In the other that about if Kylo lives at the end ... answering what do we imagine under this word "living."

I sort of expect Kylo to be basicially not welcomed in First Order or the Resistance having to run away, disillusioned about many things. Rian will make sure that he's on the right and worth rooting for but still mentally not there yet. It also kinda support what Daisy said about bad people making good choices. Snoke woldn't tolerated another failure of his.

vaderito wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:What I have noticed from the pictures that you have put up @reylo1992, is that there is serious progression of his wound healing. The hand scene shows the most healed scar, and then I think the second most healed scar is when he has the red lightsaber. Those cape scars are not that healed at all. They look like they are just after he takes off the band-aid, so they are earlier. The scar healing creates a timeline, and your most healed scar (the hand scene) has him super puppy dog eyed. He is progressively getter better throughout the movie, not darker.

@SoloSideCousin

I think you are onto something. Scar healing may be a better indicator of timeline than less reliable details such as his cape or Rey's bruise. because scar requires consistency. Like, that thing is super important.

@vaderito

Wow! I love this observation @SoloSideCousin!
Yeah I agree @vaderito - definitely on to something

Where in TFA Kylo's light saber was a visual metaphor for how unstable he was inside...
maybe in TLJ the scar will be a visual metaphor for how Kylo is healing internally? the healing of the scar corresponds to the healing of his heart, his mind, his soul.. and maybe a healing of the past too... all triggered by his Father's loving, forgiving caress in his final moment.
Awh!!

DeeBee wrote:

vaderito wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:What I have noticed from the pictures that you have put up @reylo1992, is that there is serious progression of his wound healing. The hand scene shows the most healed scar, and then I think the second most healed scar is when he has the red lightsaber. Those cape scars are not that healed at all. They look like they are just after he takes off the band-aid, so they are earlier. The scar healing creates a timeline, and your most healed scar (the hand scene) has him super puppy dog eyed. He is progressively getter better throughout the movie, not darker.

@SoloSideCousin

I think you are onto something. Scar healing may be a better indicator of timeline than less reliable details such as his cape or Rey's bruise. because scar requires consistency. Like, that thing is super important.

@vaderito

Wow! I love this observation @SoloSideCousin!
Yeah I agree @vaderito - definitely on to something

Where in TFA Kylo's light saber was a visual metaphor for how unstable he was inside...
maybe in TLJ the scar will be a visual metaphor for how Kylo is healing internally? the healing of the scar corresponds to the healing of his heart, his mind, his soul.. and maybe a healing of the past too... all triggered by his Father's loving, forgiving caress in his final moment.
Awh!!

@DeeBee

Love your analysis of the scar healing !

DarthRen wrote:

Saracene wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I do think that Kylo's redemption is going to be more intertwined with the narrative and start earlier than Vader's did. However, I never expected him to be completely heading toward the right side by the end of TLJ. My prediction is that he's going to end TLJ in a "no man's land" of sorts, alienated from all simple choice. But it would be obvious that from there, he would build up to making the right choices over the course of IX. With the change hopefully centered around a strengthened understanding of and relationship with Rey that starts to develop in TLJ.

@ZioRen

Yeah that's my feeling as well. I think he also might be in a pickle of some sort. I mean, I know that Rian said that TLJ will not end with cliffhangers (or something to this effect), but at the same time, a middle chapter of a continuous story can't help but leave loose ends by its nature.

@Saracene

Well, I know it gets maybe overblown out of proportions but Adam said that Kylo's ending is suprising or unexpected in one interview. In the other that about if Kylo lives at the end ... answering what do we imagine under this word "living."

I sort of expect Kylo to be basicially not welcomed in First Order or the Resistance having to run away, disillusioned about many things. Rian will make sure that he's on the right and worth rooting for but still mentally not there yet. It also kinda support what Daisy said about bad people making good choices. Snoke woldn't tolerated another failure of his.

@DarthRen

Yes I agree @DarthRen - I don't think the resistance can welcome him back so easily and so quickly.. He will have work to do..
I can see TLJ ending with Kylo not aligned to either the FO or the resistance - but being a good guy... and off on his own agenda.. However, I think that Rey will also be working on that agenda.. they will share the same agenda. If Kylo and Rey have their own thing going on with the raw powah thing - I can see they may need to be off on a third path which eventually joins up with the resistance for IX.

I think they'll be off hunting for the relic that they'll use together to bring balance to the force. I am super excited about where that is potentially heading! [though I acknowledge it could be a red herring!]
I am super glad it is am object that Kylo and Rey use - and not just the two of them in some metaphysical way joining their powers together within themselves- I couldn't figure out how that could work [okay, I still don't ] but, for me it bodes well for them being able to forge a life together at the end of the movie if being together doesn't somehow cause force earthquakes or something... Just my person view and how I'd like for these characters to end..

One last thought - I'd like it if for both of them, their raw powah is always not quite under control - but when they are together they are able to control it
[Or heck, maybe they could only control it when kissing.. oh yes that could work ahem.. ]

DarthRen wrote:

Saracene wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I do think that Kylo's redemption is going to be more intertwined with the narrative and start earlier than Vader's did. However, I never expected him to be completely heading toward the right side by the end of TLJ. My prediction is that he's going to end TLJ in a "no man's land" of sorts, alienated from all simple choice. But it would be obvious that from there, he would build up to making the right choices over the course of IX. With the change hopefully centered around a strengthened understanding of and relationship with Rey that starts to develop in TLJ.

@ZioRen

Yeah that's my feeling as well. I think he also might be in a pickle of some sort. I mean, I know that Rian said that TLJ will not end with cliffhangers (or something to this effect), but at the same time, a middle chapter of a continuous story can't help but leave loose ends by its nature.

@Saracene

Well, I know it gets maybe overblown out of proportions but Adam said that Kylo's ending is suprising or unexpected in one interview. In the other that about if Kylo lives at the end ... answering what do we imagine under this word "living."

I sort of expect Kylo to be basicially not welcomed in First Order or the Resistance having to run away, disillusioned about many things. Rian will make sure that he's on the right and worth rooting for but still mentally not there yet. It also kinda support what Daisy said about bad people making good choices. Snoke woldn't tolerated another failure of his.

@DarthRen

Agree with this. Kylo's situation is extremely complicated.

On the one hand, it's hard to imagine that he would remain in the FO by Snoke's side in the statu quo he had in TFA, especially after one more betrayal. Narratively speaking, that would mean no big evolution in his character arc.  On the other hand, I can't imagine either that the Resistance would welcome him with open arms. Having Kylo and Rey as two pieces together in the same side is dangerous for Snoke's agenda.

In any case, it would be extremely dangerous to have Kylo as his ennemy since Kylo possibly knows about his weaknesses. No way IMO that Snoke doesn't try to get rid of Kylo if he can't have him by his side. It depends on very much what Rian made of Han's line "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you".

In regard to Kylo's unexpected fate by the end of TLJ, I have three different scenarios in mind without ruling out any other scenarios:

Scenario 1: Snoke forces Kylo to become one with him, allowing the Supreme Leader to become young, handsome and powerful all over again and/or to create the Empire Vader intended to create

Scenario 2: Snoke gets what he wants from Kylo and - like Han foreshadowed - crushes him. I would run for the idea that Snoke kinda sucks his (Force) energy, leaving Kylo extremely weak if not barely alive.

I don't know what Rian did from the many callbacks to E.T. The Extraterrestrial inserted by J.J. in TFA but since the mysterious connection between Kylo and Rey was confirmed, I would be surprised if he wouldn't insert any callback to this movie, knowing that Kathleen Kennedy was the producer by that time. Plus, the E.T./Elliott's connection is the closest thing to a Force bond I've ever seen until now. So, I don't think it's impossible that in a scenario where Snoke would crush Kylo, Kylo's state could affect Rey's because of the Force bond, leading maybe to that kind of scene:

I suppose that the "hearbeats in sync" we got in TFA regarding Kylo and Rey may have more implications than just being the consequence of the Force bond. Maybe that the Force Bond becomes so strong throughout the movie that Kylo and Rey's become interdependent like E.T.and Elliott's.  Honestly, I would find it really powerful if Rian would give us a scene like that in which Ben would sort of sacrifice himself to save Rey from dying with him. This could be a nice callback and reversal to this Anidala scene from ROTS in which you get the sense that Padme's last breath occurs just after Vader's first breath. Of course, one could think: "No way! LF would never allow the death of the last Skywalker" on the one hand. On the other hand, having the Prince(ss) ending up in (near-)death (because of the villain) to be reborn sooner or later isn't something totally uncommon in Disney fairytales :

Maybe that Kylo would be reborn quickly after depending on the circumstances. In any case, if Rian inserts callbacks to E.T. the Extraterrestrial, that line from Elliott wouldn't be out of option in regard to the mysterious connection:

Elliott: "You must be dead because, I don't know how to feel...I can't feel anything anymore..."

Scenario 3: Kylo leaves the FO, survives his confrontation with Snoke but is forced to go alone in exile a la Kovu because he has nowhere to go and to belong.

reylo1992 wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

Saracene wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I do think that Kylo's redemption is going to be more intertwined with the narrative and start earlier than Vader's did. However, I never expected him to be completely heading toward the right side by the end of TLJ. My prediction is that he's going to end TLJ in a "no man's land" of sorts, alienated from all simple choice. But it would be obvious that from there, he would build up to making the right choices over the course of IX. With the change hopefully centered around a strengthened understanding of and relationship with Rey that starts to develop in TLJ.

@ZioRen

Yeah that's my feeling as well. I think he also might be in a pickle of some sort. I mean, I know that Rian said that TLJ will not end with cliffhangers (or something to this effect), but at the same time, a middle chapter of a continuous story can't help but leave loose ends by its nature.

@Saracene

Well, I know it gets maybe overblown out of proportions but Adam said that Kylo's ending is suprising or unexpected in one interview. In the other that about if Kylo lives at the end ... answering what do we imagine under this word "living."

I sort of expect Kylo to be basicially not welcomed in First Order or the Resistance having to run away, disillusioned about many things. Rian will make sure that he's on the right and worth rooting for but still mentally not there yet. It also kinda support what Daisy said about bad people making good choices. Snoke woldn't tolerated another failure of his.

@DarthRen

Agree with this. Kylo's situation is extremely complicated.

On the one hand, it's hard to imagine that he would remain in the FO by Snoke's side in the statu quo he had in TFA, especially after one more betrayal. Narratively speaking, that would mean no big evolution in his character arc.  On the other hand, I can't imagine either that the Resistance would welcome him with open arms. Having Kylo and Rey as two pieces together in the same side is dangerous for Snoke's agenda.

In any case, it would be extremely dangerous to have Kylo as his ennemy since Kylo possibly knows about his weaknesses. No way IMO that Snoke doesn't try to get rid of Kylo if he can't have him by his side. It depends on very much what Rian made of Han's line "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you".

In regard to Kylo's unexpected fate by the end of TLJ, I have three different scenarios in mind without ruling out any other scenarios:

Scenario 1: Snoke forces Kylo to become one with him, allowing the Supreme Leader to become young, handsome and powerful all over again and/or to create the Empire Vader intended to create

Scenario 2: Snoke gets what he wants from Kylo and - like Han foreshadowed - crushes him. I would run for the idea that Snoke kinda sucks his (Force) energy, leaving Kylo extremely weak if not barely alive.

I don't know what Rian did from the many callbacks to E.T. The Extraterrestrial inserted by J.J. in TFA but since the mysterious connection between Kylo and Rey was confirmed, I would be surprised if he wouldn't insert any callback to this movie, knowing that Kathleen Kennedy was the producer by that time. Plus, the E.T./Elliott's connection is the closest thing to a Force bond I've ever seen until now. So, I don't think it's impossible that in a scenario where Snoke would crush Kylo, Kylo's state could affect Rey's because of the Force bond, leading maybe to that kind of scene:

I suppose that the "hearbeats in sync" we got in TFA regarding Kylo and Rey may have more implications than just being the consequence of the Force bond. Maybe that the Force Bond becomes so strong throughout the movie that Kylo and Rey's become interdependent like E.T.and Elliott's.  Honestly, I would find it really powerful if Rian would give us a scene like that in which Ben would sort of sacrifice himself to save Rey from dying with him. This could be a nice callback and reversal to this Anidala scene from ROTS in which you get the sense that Padme's last breath occurs just after Vader's first breath. Of course, one could think: "No way! LF would never allow the death of the last Skywalker" on the one hand. On the other hand, having the Prince(ss) ending up in (near-)death (because of the villain) to be reborn sooner or later isn't something totally uncommon in Disney fairytales :

Maybe that Kylo would be reborn quickly after depending on the circumstances. In any case, if Rian inserts callbacks to E.T. the Extraterrestrial, that line from Elliott wouldn't be out of option in regard to the mysterious connection:

Elliott: "You must be dead because, I don't know how to feel...I can't feel anything anymore..."

Scenario 3: Kylo leaves the FO, survives his confrontation with Snoke but is forced to go alone in exile a la Kovu because he has nowhere to go and to belong.

@reylo1992

I think Kylo will be even more emotionally and physically wounded but making good choices. Having him with FO wouldn't make sense if he helps Rey and the Resistance would imprison him or execute him for his crimes. The only option and trailer /even TFA leads to Kylo and Rey taking a different path from them. Make their own way as Rian tweeted West Side Story and lyrics were about finding a new way.


We have a debate in spoiler and rumours thread thanks to @DeeBee and article posted there about Snoke's Contraption thing, storage for Force powers. It looks like Palpatine's Force ligthning sport of.

That Kylo and Rey raw powers might still grow and Snoke sucks part if it from Kylo to help him from Kylo's point of view but from his he limits his powers to a certain level ... and can control him better. Plus he might work on how to either sucks the rest of it or use it somehow else. Snoke might have the acknowledge of the origins of the Force and how to control it, the first Force users were about Light and Dark. Later on they as Jedi choose different paths and Sith were born.

Raw power thing is bigger than we might think. Snoke mentioned it in novelization and in the trailer whether it is to Kylo or Rey. He might ahve tricks how to control it and use it for his evil plans.

Also his torture scene could be him absorbing some of her powers. It didn't looked like demonstration of his powers but more likely a really painful torture from Snoke.

DarthRen wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

Saracene wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I do think that Kylo's redemption is going to be more intertwined with the narrative and start earlier than Vader's did. However, I never expected him to be completely heading toward the right side by the end of TLJ. My prediction is that he's going to end TLJ in a "no man's land" of sorts, alienated from all simple choice. But it would be obvious that from there, he would build up to making the right choices over the course of IX. With the change hopefully centered around a strengthened understanding of and relationship with Rey that starts to develop in TLJ.

@ZioRen

Yeah that's my feeling as well. I think he also might be in a pickle of some sort. I mean, I know that Rian said that TLJ will not end with cliffhangers (or something to this effect), but at the same time, a middle chapter of a continuous story can't help but leave loose ends by its nature.

@Saracene

Well, I know it gets maybe overblown out of proportions but Adam said that Kylo's ending is suprising or unexpected in one interview. In the other that about if Kylo lives at the end ... answering what do we imagine under this word "living."

I sort of expect Kylo to be basicially not welcomed in First Order or the Resistance having to run away, disillusioned about many things. Rian will make sure that he's on the right and worth rooting for but still mentally not there yet. It also kinda support what Daisy said about bad people making good choices. Snoke woldn't tolerated another failure of his.

@DarthRen

Agree with this. Kylo's situation is extremely complicated.

On the one hand, it's hard to imagine that he would remain in the FO by Snoke's side in the statu quo he had in TFA, especially after one more betrayal. Narratively speaking, that would mean no big evolution in his character arc.  On the other hand, I can't imagine either that the Resistance would welcome him with open arms. Having Kylo and Rey as two pieces together in the same side is dangerous for Snoke's agenda.

In any case, it would be extremely dangerous to have Kylo as his ennemy since Kylo possibly knows about his weaknesses. No way IMO that Snoke doesn't try to get rid of Kylo if he can't have him by his side. It depends on very much what Rian made of Han's line "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you".

In regard to Kylo's unexpected fate by the end of TLJ, I have three different scenarios in mind without ruling out any other scenarios:

Scenario 1: Snoke forces Kylo to become one with him, allowing the Supreme Leader to become young, handsome and powerful all over again and/or to create the Empire Vader intended to create

Scenario 2: Snoke gets what he wants from Kylo and - like Han foreshadowed - crushes him. I would run for the idea that Snoke kinda sucks his (Force) energy, leaving Kylo extremely weak if not barely alive.

I don't know what Rian did from the many callbacks to E.T. The Extraterrestrial inserted by J.J. in TFA but since the mysterious connection between Kylo and Rey was confirmed, I would be surprised if he wouldn't insert any callback to this movie, knowing that Kathleen Kennedy was the producer by that time. Plus, the E.T./Elliott's connection is the closest thing to a Force bond I've ever seen until now. So, I don't think it's impossible that in a scenario where Snoke would crush Kylo, Kylo's state could affect Rey's because of the Force bond, leading maybe to that kind of scene:

I suppose that the "hearbeats in sync" we got in TFA regarding Kylo and Rey may have more implications than just being the consequence of the Force bond. Maybe that the Force Bond becomes so strong throughout the movie that Kylo and Rey's become interdependent like E.T.and Elliott's.  Honestly, I would find it really powerful if Rian would give us a scene like that in which Ben would sort of sacrifice himself to save Rey from dying with him. This could be a nice callback and reversal to this Anidala scene from ROTS in which you get the sense that Padme's last breath occurs just after Vader's first breath. Of course, one could think: "No way! LF would never allow the death of the last Skywalker" on the one hand. On the other hand, having the Prince(ss) ending up in (near-)death (because of the villain) to be reborn sooner or later isn't something totally uncommon in Disney fairytales :

Maybe that Kylo would be reborn quickly after depending on the circumstances. In any case, if Rian inserts callbacks to E.T. the Extraterrestrial, that line from Elliott wouldn't be out of option in regard to the mysterious connection:

Elliott: "You must be dead because, I don't know how to feel...I can't feel anything anymore..."

Scenario 3: Kylo leaves the FO, survives his confrontation with Snoke but is forced to go alone in exile a la Kovu because he has nowhere to go and to belong.

@reylo1992

I think Kylo will be even more emotionally and physically wounded but making good choices. Having him with FO wouldn't make sense if he helps Rey and the Resistance would imprison him or execute him for his crimes. The only option and trailer /even TFA leads to Kylo and Rey taking a different path from them. Make their own way as Rian tweeted West Side Story and lyrics were about finding a new way.


We have a debate in spoiler and rumours thread thanks to @DeeBee and article posted there about Snoke's Contraption thing, storage for Force powers. It looks like Palpatine's Force ligthning sport of.

That Kylo and Rey raw powers might still grow and Snoke sucks part if it from Kylo to help him from Kylo's point of view but from his he limits his powers to a certain level ... and can control him better. Plus he might work on how to either sucks the rest of it or use it somehow else. Snoke might have the acknowledge of the origins of the Force and how to control it, the first Force users were about Light and Dark. Later on they as Jedi choose different paths and Sith were born.

Raw power thing is bigger than we might think. Snoke mentioned it in novelization and in the trailer whether it is to Kylo or Rey. He might ahve tricks how to control it and use it for his evil plans.

Also his torture scene could be him absorbing some of her powers. It didn't looked like demonstration of his powers but more likely a really painful torture from Snoke.

@DarthRen

Yep! Just saw the article on the other thread. That's an interesting theory. I think that Snoke would use Kylo's (and Rey's) raw power to create his new weapon of massive destruction since SKB was destroyed. I would even suggest that it was maybe his plan all along to use Kylo as pure, strong, unbreakable material to be the perfect weapon.

As for Kylo and Rey fleeing together to find a new way, that's indeed a possibility behind the hand offer but I am a little skeptical about this happening as the conclusion of TLJ. Let's keep in mind that this was a dream that didn't come true for Tony and Maria because the reality of the confrontation between their clans: "It's not us. It's around us". Like in WSS, there is the reality of the war between Dark and Light, between FO and Resistance. It's a little as if Kovu and Kiara would have gone to exile together despite the reality of the upcoming confrontation between their prides. And yet Kiara explained Kovu that they should n't leave to form their own pride because coming back is the only way to bring an end to the conflict. And I get the feeling that fleeing together would make Kylo and Rey some kind of Space Bonnie and Clyde because Kylo would be certainly "wanted" for his crimes and maybe by the FO for his betrayal. And if Snoke needs their raw power, I doubt that he would let them go away from him without chasing them. As for Rey, would the GA support the idea that she would be on the run with that guy ?

I would like everyone to have a good look at this courtesy of http://thedarkside-and-thelight.tumblr.com/post/167017559081/dancingsunrise27-like-father-like-son Now....let all those who refused to see the resemblance between Adam and a young Harrison hang their heads in shame.......

motherofpearl1 wrote:I would like everyone to have a good look at this courtesy of http://thedarkside-and-thelight.tumblr.com/post/167017559081/dancingsunrise27-like-father-like-son Now....let all those who refused to see the resemblance between Adam and a young Harrison hang their heads in shame.......

@motherofpearl1



That's a really great comparison shot, side by side. Although I know others could or would misunderstand that gaze.

MrsWindu wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I would like everyone to have a good look at this courtesy of http://thedarkside-and-thelight.tumblr.com/post/167017559081/dancingsunrise27-like-father-like-son Now....let all those who refused to see the resemblance between Adam and a young Harrison hang their heads in shame.......

@motherofpearl1



That's a really great comparison shot, side by side. Although I know others could or would misunderstand that gaze.

@MrsWindu

Like father, like son. Adam could pass on as son of Harrison Ford. He even has his mannerisms.

DarthRen wrote:
Like father, like son. Adam could pass on as son of Harrison Ford. He even has his mannerisms.

@DarthRen

I agree! I didn't see it at first, but when you see them especially in interviews, they are very similar off-set, so it will probably be very easy for Adam Driver to "play up" the Han Solo mannerisms when he returns to being Ben.

The most straightforward Kylo summary I've ever read (from a product description on a kids TLJ watch) In case some people are still wondering about what it is that Vader started that Kylo wants to finish... well there it is.

Kylo Ren was born Ben Solo, the human son of Princess Leia Organa and General Han Solo. Born on the planet of Chandrilla Bens parents busy lives often left him with feelings of abandonment. They feared he was showing signs of being influenced by the dark side so sent him to be trained under his uncle, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker. However, Ben was tempted to the dark side of the Force and destroyed his uncle’s attempt to restore the Jedi Order following the guidance of Supreme Leader Snoke of the First Order. Ben destroyed his fellow apprentices and became one of the Knights of Ren taking the title Kylo Ren. He idolized his grandfather, the fallen Sith Lord Darth Vader, and hoped to finish to complete his mission to eliminate the Jedi.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:The most straightforward Kylo summary I've ever read (from a product description on a kids TLJ watch) In case some people are still wondering about what it is that Vader started that Kylo wants to finish... well there it is.

Kylo Ren was born Ben Solo, the human son of Princess Leia Organa and General Han Solo. Born on the planet of Chandrilla Bens parents busy lives often left him with feelings of abandonment. They feared he was showing signs of being influenced by the dark side so sent him to be trained under his uncle, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker. However, Ben was tempted to the dark side of the Force and destroyed his uncle’s attempt to restore the Jedi Order following the guidance of Supreme Leader Snoke of the First Order. Ben destroyed his fellow apprentices and became one of the Knights of Ren taking the title Kylo Ren. He idolized his grandfather, the fallen Sith Lord Darth Vader, and hoped to finish to complete his mission to eliminate the Jedi.

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's so random, that a watch would be the thing to have the clearest description. I feel like Kylo's "I'll finish what you started" line is another one of those mystery box moments that never needed to be needlessly complicated into a mystery, but was.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:The most straightforward Kylo summary I've ever read (from a product description on a kids TLJ watch) In case some people are still wondering about what it is that Vader started that Kylo wants to finish... well there it is.

Kylo Ren was born Ben Solo, the human son of Princess Leia Organa and General Han Solo. Born on the planet of Chandrilla Bens parents busy lives often left him with feelings of abandonment. They feared he was showing signs of being influenced by the dark side so sent him to be trained under his uncle, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker. However, Ben was tempted to the dark side of the Force and destroyed his uncle’s attempt to restore the Jedi Order following the guidance of Supreme Leader Snoke of the First Order. Ben destroyed his fellow apprentices and became one of the Knights of Ren taking the title Kylo Ren. He idolized his grandfather, the fallen Sith Lord Darth Vader, and hoped to finish to complete his mission to eliminate the Jedi.

@Cowgirlsamurai

That is very straight forward and concise. They should use that description on everything Kylo related (until we learn more in TLJ of course).

New Japanese article out, it's an interview with Kylo Ren's Japanese dubber: http://reylo.skyforum.net/t636p25-classified-big-secret-translations-scans-and-speculations#158282

No spoiler, he talked 90% about TFA Kylo and tiny teeny bit abt TLJ Kylo, but I think he spilled stuff here and there without realizing it

Another Japanese article on Kylo Ren by IGN Japan: https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20171121-00000002-ignjapan-movi
They picked up (translated) Adam Driver's explanation on why Kylo Ren turning against his parents, from EW.

I thought, "Only Kylo Ren's part?" Nothing else... I cannot find other Japanese translation articles of the other parts of EW articles. Only this one, so far.
This is interesting... why is Japan so Kylo-centric? This article basically just picked up the part on how Han/Leia cared more about other things than their son, and also Rian saying there's no need to reveal what's behind his mask if he's just a villain deserve to die. I don't think this is simply just trying to get GA's sympathy for Kylo.

Totally random, I got to hear the second trailer again and damn Adam has a great speaking voice