ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 9

BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito and the use of the word 'murderer' is important as you say - because everyone in the GFFA kills people. But they're not all considered murderers, at least not explicitly by the narrative. I mean it's all gotta have something to do with Snoke, and maybe some level of manipulation. Maybe that's a reveal for Rey since she's not aware of Snoke at this point and why he might have targeted Ben as his apprentice.

@BastilaBey

While I'm sure there will be something unexpected, I don't want to sugarcoat anything until we have more info. Remember that Kylo coming to Ahch-to for revenge, to kill Rey was initially a shock to quite a few of us who knew he would come but imagined a different scenario. So lets keep it real, brace for straightforward bad scenario that Snoke said "do it for powah" and he did it for powah but than learn much more compelling reason and scenario that's actually in the movie. I see that antis already don't like that padawans are "late adolescents" cause they insist to call them "kids", so that's a plus for us already.

@Iseeanisland I think it's more complicated too, for sure. Maybe it's getting a little too technical in a legal sense with terms like 'self defense' and 'premeditated' haha, people could have different definitions of those. It's possible Ben got into a confrontation with other acolytes about whether the dark side is safe to use, or a desirable path, for example. If they'd seen him using it and THEN found out Vader was his grandfather, they'd understandably be concerned. If it then evolved into a fight, all bets are off, they're all going to be out for themselves. It's going to be interesting to see how Luke fit into all of that and what he was advocating in his teachings.

@vaderito I have absolutely no concerns about the fact that this vision will serve to humanize Ben more for Rey. She already thinks he's a monster, there's no story in that being confirmed over and over. We're probably not going to get the answer as to what the vision holds until the movie itself, but that won't stop us all speculating.

BastilaBey wrote:@Iseeanisland I think it's more complicated too, for sure. Maybe it's getting a little too technical in a legal sense with terms like 'self defense' and 'premeditated' haha, people could have different definitions of those. It's possible Ben got into a confrontation with other acolytes about whether the dark side is safe to use, or a desirable path, for example. If they'd seen him using it and THEN found out Vader was his grandfather, they'd understandably be concerned. If it then evolved into a fight, all bets are off, they're all going to be out for themselves. It's going to be interesting to see how Luke fit into all of that and what he was advocating in his teachings.

@BastilaBey

Agreed.

Also, I know that scenario where 23 years old fights late adolescents is different from when 23 years old is attacking 5-7 years olds. The former stand a chance, the latter don't, even as a group. So it definitely didn't go down the same way, even if Kylo showed up with KoR who we know are not FS (which puts them in slight disadvantage).

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin he couldn't start the scene totally evil cause that scene is his fall into darkness. That's when it happened. There was nothing like it before. There was Snoke influence but nothing of this magnitude. If he were evil already than that wouldn't be falling to the dark side but business as usual. But it was his fall, like Anakin's. Anakin didn't go around killing padawans as part of his everyday business.

I also find it amusing that antis call those "late adolescents" "kids" as if they'll miraculously turn into younglings and make Kylo look so baaaaad. LOL. They were his age, deal with it.

@vaderito

Exactly! That's what I was trying to say.  So if 18-19 year olds decide to go all District 2-Hunger Games on him, what is he supposed to do?  Just like what is Luke supposed to do if a bunch of KoR go for him? The difference is that Luke is deemed a good guy and has a right to take them all out and not be at fault even if his talent outpaces theirs.  The same thing for Ben.  I think this is part of what Rian is going to do to turn things on their head.  People will go into the movie thinking Kylo had it coming and then suddenly they will see him as a young guy, who has not fallen, who may even be in a better moral position than Luke at that time for all we know, and suddenly people are going to be forced to think, "OMG! He didn't deserve this.  He was only defending himself, etc." Fanboy heads will explode. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

I do expect this level of ambiguity from Rian.
I also thinks that the possible padawan attack or rude mocking or something in that line - could only provoke already insecure and evidently sensitive and vulnerable guy to go completely ballistic on them.

Another thing:
Somebody brought up once an idea or was it some legit source as Pablo? - that Ben disappeared after the massacre and they thought him dead. What was it exactly?

@Darth_Awakened

It was the leaked shooting schedule that described the original Forceback (or rather, part of it) thus:

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

A bunch of us found it ambiguous, and thought there was a possibility that Kylo had been taken by the KOR.

@Darth Dingbat

Thanks, so I did not dream about it after all. lol
Interesting enough: KOR was not mention by MSW being in the scene of FB, and now this shooting schedule somehow confirmed it.

@Darth_Awakened cause it's a future scene, must have been added at Rian's request.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin he couldn't start the scene totally evil cause that scene is his fall into darkness. That's when it happened. There was nothing like it before. There was Snoke influence but nothing of this magnitude. If he were evil already than that wouldn't be falling to the dark side but business as usual. But it was his fall, like Anakin's. Anakin didn't go around killing padawans as part of his everyday business.

I also find it amusing that antis call those "late adolescents" "kids" as if they'll miraculously turn into younglings and make Kylo look so baaaaad. LOL. They were his age, deal with it.

@vaderito

Exactly! That's what I was trying to say.  So if 18-19 year olds decide to go all District 2-Hunger Games on him, what is he supposed to do?  Just like what is Luke supposed to do if a bunch of KoR go for him? The difference is that Luke is deemed a good guy and has a right to take them all out and not be at fault even if his talent outpaces theirs.  The same thing for Ben.  I think this is part of what Rian is going to do to turn things on their head.  People will go into the movie thinking Kylo had it coming and then suddenly they will see him as a young guy, who has not fallen, who may even be in a better moral position than Luke at that time for all we know, and suddenly people are going to be forced to think, "OMG! He didn't deserve this.  He was only defending himself, etc." Fanboy heads will explode. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

I do expect this level of ambiguity from Rian.
I also thinks that the possible padawan attack or rude mocking or something in that line - could only provoke already insecure and evidently sensitive and vulnerable guy to go completely ballistic on them.

Another thing:
Somebody brought up once an idea or was it some legit source as Pablo? - that Ben disappeared after the massacre and they thought him dead. What was it exactly?

@Darth_Awakened

It was the leaked shooting schedule that described the original Forceback (or rather, part of it) thus:

EXT DAY - 198 - ACADEMY • Leia and Han Solo hand over Young Kylo Ren to his Uncle for training

EXT DAWN - 200 - ACADEMY • Young Kylo Ren being trained by his Uncle

INT NIGHT - 202 - ACADEMY • Bodies left behind - Young Kylo Ren is gone

EXT DAY - 203 - JAGGED TERRAIN/PALACE • Kylo Ren joins The Knights Of Ren

EXT DUSK - 204 - ACADEMY • R2-D2 upset as his master leaves

A bunch of us found it ambiguous, and thought there was a possibility that Kylo had been taken by the KOR.

@Darth Dingbat

Thanks, so I did not dream about it after all. lol
Interesting enough: KOR was not mention by MSW being in the scene of FB, and now this shooting schedule somehow confirmed it.

@Darth_Awakened

Well, the KOR weren't necessarily there - that's just a possibility. And this shooting schedule is for an earlier version of the flashbacks for TFA, so who knows if the story has even changed slightly since then.

But yes, it's certainly intriguing.

ETA: Oops, sorry, misunderstood But still, it's for an earlier version, so the scene we got in the Forceback is different.

My thoughts on murderer:
I actually think Kylo murdered padawans. And I do not think it was a straight forward self defense - my idea is that he somehow get enraged by them and start to fight them because he could not control the rage in him (aka the dark side).
Furthermore, he is not necessarily a member of KOR at the moment of the massacre.

The only thing I am confused about is the Snoke s influence and targeting. Where did it exactly start?

One thing I don't quite understand, though: how does one person - however powerful - just plain murder a bunch of grown and at least partially trained Force-sensitives who, by the looks of it, are armed with lightsabers? I assume they would fight back.

Unless they were killed by some means that killed a bunch of them instantly or something.

Darth_Awakened wrote:My thoughts on murderer:
I actually think Kylo murdered padawans. And I do not think it was a straight forward self defense - my idea is that he somehow get enraged by them and start to fight them because he could not control the rage in him (aka the dark side).
Furthermore, he is not necessarily a member of KOR at the moment of the massacre.

The only thing I am confused about is the Snoke s influence and targeting. Where did it exactly start?

@Darth_Awakened

I agree that Kylo likely has culpability when it comes to the massacre/purge. I don't think he's completely innocent.

I thought the story was going to be what Han said it was, although I always thought Kylo's motives would be more complicated. Now that it looks like we're going to revisit the scene, I definitely think there's going to be more to it. The big question is, was it premeditated? What happened leading up to the scene? Kylo is still so conflicted when we meet him in TFA...whatever happened at that Jedi massacre/purge, it doesn't seem like it empowered him like it should have when it comes to the dark side.

Darth_Awakened wrote:My thoughts on murderer:
I actually think Kylo murdered padawans. And I do not think it was a straight forward self defense - my idea is that he somehow get enraged by them and start to fight them because he could not control the rage in him (aka the dark side).
Furthermore, he is not necessarily a member of KOR at the moment of the massacre.

The only thing I am confused about is the Snoke s influence and targeting. Where did it exactly start?

@Darth_Awakened

I could see something like that. But if that's the case, I also think that the padawans did something to provoke him. I just really don't see it being an Anakin 2.0 situation.

Darth Dingbat wrote:One thing I don't quite understand, though: how does one person - however powerful - just plain murder a bunch of grown and at least partially trained Force-sensitives who, by the looks of it, are armed with lightsabers? I assume they would fight back.

Unless they were killed by some means that killed a bunch of them instantly or something.

@Darth Dingbat

That's the right question and the answer is the following - whatever happened is not going to be this:





Yes, late adolescents should be able to defend themselves better than this young adolescent



whom we all know as Jett "Anastasia" Lucas.

also adolescent actors had better do a better job at playing dead on film. These younglings look like it's kindergarten nap time. Sorry, the acting in ROTS still has me twitching with distaste.

vaderito wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:One thing I don't quite understand, though: how does one person - however powerful - just plain murder a bunch of grown and at least partially trained Force-sensitives who, by the looks of it, are armed with lightsabers? I assume they would fight back.

Unless they were killed by some means that killed a bunch of them instantly or something.

@Darth Dingbat

That's the right question and the answer is the following - whatever happened is not going to be this:





Yes, late adolescents should be able to defend themselves better than this young adolescent



whom we all know as Jett "Anastasia" Lucas.

@vaderito

Yes, those adolescents were the same age as college freshman and sophomores, and were force sensitives trained by Luke and armed with lightsabers. From what we saw in the TFA duel, Kylo didn't seem very technically skilled with a lightsaber, he was a more raw and impulsive swordsman. I don't think he would have been skilled enough to take on a group of force sensitive padawans, armed with lightsabers, on his own, 5-6 years ago. So, did he get help? Did he unleash some powerful force attack? Who started the fire and did that play a part in the massacre or were the padawans dead already when the fire was started?

Also, I keep wondering about the Vader reveal and if it effected Luke and Kylo. Now that we're getting another forceback/vision, I'm more curious whether it played any part in what happened (since the timing of the reveal and the massacre seem to coincide).

We saw in TFA that Kylo is immensely strong with Force.
But I do not think so they did not fight back.
He was just stronger than them, like his uncle supposed to be against KOR (who are definitely not half-trained padawans)

@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

Macha Ren wrote:also adolescent actors had better do a better job at playing dead on film. These younglings look like it's kindergarten nap time. Sorry, the acting in ROTS still has me twitching with distaste.

@Macha Ren

Oh c'mon! Young Snoke's acting was brilliant, on par with AD's acting:

WhatGirl wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:Exactly! That's what I was trying to say.  So if 18-19 year olds decide to go all District 2-Hunger Games on him, what is he supposed to do?  Just like what is Luke supposed to do if a bunch of KoR go for him? The difference is that Luke is deemed a good guy and has a right to take them all out and not be at fault even if his talent outpaces theirs.  The same thing for Ben.  I think this is part of what Rian is going to do to turn things on their head.  People will go into the movie thinking Kylo had it coming and then suddenly they will see him as a young guy, who has not fallen, who may even be in a better moral position than Luke at that time for all we know, and suddenly people are going to be forced to think, "OMG! He didn't deserve this.  He was only defending himself, etc." Fanboy heads will explode. :-)

@SoloSideCousin

I can see Ben having a very normal life - happy with plenty of friends - up until the moment it gets out that he's a descendant of Darth Vader. Then suddenly all hell breaks loose and the other students turn against him. Cue massive bullying and social isolation.

And in the middle of all this, Snoke is whispering in his head. Giving him thoughts of embracing his heritage rather than being ashamed of it. Of becoming more powerful in the Force than the rest of them.

@WhatGirl

Oh snap this post made Pumped Up Kicks pop in my head LOL.

Kylo's got a quick hand.
He'll look round the room
He won't tell you his plan
He's got his grand's light saber
Hanging out his hands
He's a Jedi Killer.



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