ARCHIVE: Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors - 10

vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

@vaderito

I know. However I assume they have more experience in fighting and making mess than some young acolytes of Luke s.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

@vaderito

I know. However I assume they have more experience in fighting and making mess than some young acolytes of Luke s.

@Darth_Awakened

Experience will win in a fight more times than not.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

@vaderito

I know. However I assume they have more experience in fighting and making mess than some young acolytes of Luke s.

@Darth_Awakened

I don't know... in canon, even teenage padawans tend to be skilled fighters already. Just look at Ahsoka - she was very young in TCW. I assume apprentices around the age of 20 - or even a bit less - would be no walk-overs.

If it does turn out to be a self-defense situation for Ben, and he does end up taking them all out, I can't get over the parallel with Luke taking out all of the KoR.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

@vaderito

I know. However I assume they have more experience in fighting and making mess than some young acolytes of Luke s.

@Darth_Awakened

I don't know... in canon, even teenage padawans tend to be skilled fighters already. Just look at Ahsoka - she was very young in TCW. I assume apprentices around the age of 20 - or even a bit less - would be no walk-overs.

@Darth Dingbat

Yep I agree. But all those padawans and Jedis were the product of the system (Jedi order and long tradition).
Luke is alone - and he is teaching them the best he can probably, but I think you can compare the jedis or padawans of the old republic to the Luke s group of force enthusiasts, somehow I can imagine that they could be less skilled.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

@vaderito

I know. However I assume they have more experience in fighting and making mess than some young acolytes of Luke s.

@Darth_Awakened

I don't know... in canon, even teenage padawans tend to be skilled fighters already. Just look at Ahsoka - she was very young in TCW. I assume apprentices around the age of 20 - or even a bit less - would be no walk-overs.

@Darth Dingbat

True and Anakin was 19 in AOTC and he was a decent fighter and deemed 'capable' of protecting Padme...he was about the age of Luke's padawans too.

I assume Anakin and Ahsoka had more formal jedi training than Luke's padawans, but I would expect Luke's padawans to be more survivalist types if they were traveling to different temples on backward planets. I don't see them being pushovers.

Kessel89 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

@vaderito

I know. However I assume they have more experience in fighting and making mess than some young acolytes of Luke s.

@Darth_Awakened

I don't know... in canon, even teenage padawans tend to be skilled fighters already. Just look at Ahsoka - she was very young in TCW. I assume apprentices around the age of 20 - or even a bit less - would be no walk-overs.

@Darth Dingbat

True and Anakin was 19 in AOTC and he was a decent fighter and deemed 'capable' of protecting Padme...he was about the age of Luke's padawans too.

I assume Anakin and Ahsoka had more formal jedi training than Luke's padawans, but I would expect Luke's padawans to be more survivorist types if they were traveling to different temples on backward planets. I don't see them being pushovers.

@Kessel89

Could there be a foul play happened? A wolf among sheep, someone that caught the Padawans off guard and allowed Kylo to strike, despite having less people on his side or lack of skills

Kessel89 wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Darth_Awakened KoR are not FS. They don't even have LS.

@vaderito

I know. However I assume they have more experience in fighting and making mess than some young acolytes of Luke s.

@Darth_Awakened

I don't know... in canon, even teenage padawans tend to be skilled fighters already. Just look at Ahsoka - she was very young in TCW. I assume apprentices around the age of 20 - or even a bit less - would be no walk-overs.

@Darth Dingbat

True and Anakin was 19 in AOTC and he was a decent fighter and deemed 'capable' of protecting Padme...he was about the age of Luke's padawans too.

I assume Anakin and Ahsoka had more formal jedi training than Luke's padawans, but I would expect Luke's padawans to be more survivorist types if they were traveling to different temples on backward planets. I don't see them being pushovers.

@Kessel89

Mhmm I think that Snoke must have set up an opportunity for Kylo Ren to be successful in killing them all (that may or may not have involved the KOR, fire, or something else) and Kylo Ren took that opportunity, for whatever reason, which remains to be seen. Kylo was probably the most powerful, but his success in defeating them all was probably due to Snoke's help, I think, hence he "turned against" Luke. I think it was a decision, a switching of sides. So Kylo wasn't alone in his act, even if the support was behind-the-scenes. So, yeah, it probably wasn't easy killing them all and destroying everything. I think Kylo probably "needed guidance" and all that.

I just noticed an interesting addition to the Episode VIII crew list: SFX contact lens optician.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I just noticed an interesting addition to the Episode VIII crew list: SFX contact lens optician.

@Darth Dingbat

my kingdom for a leaked photo of Adam with yellow eyes.

Macha Ren wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:I just noticed an interesting addition to the Episode VIII crew list: SFX contact lens optician.

@Darth Dingbat

my kingdom for a leaked photo of Adam with yellow eyes.

@Macha Ren

And my kingdom for preferably not

I'll indulge in some secret fangirl fantasies of Benicio with yellow eyes, thankyouverymuch.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I just noticed an interesting addition to the Episode VIII crew list: SFX contact lens optician.

@Darth Dingbat

Probably some alien with interesting eyes.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Macha Ren wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:I just noticed an interesting addition to the Episode VIII crew list: SFX contact lens optician.

@Darth Dingbat

my kingdom for a leaked photo of Adam with yellow eyes.

@Macha Ren

And my kingdom for preferably not

I'll indulge in some secret fangirl fantasies of Benicio with yellow eyes, thankyouverymuch.

@Darth Dingbat

Me too (yellow eyed BDT).... I honestly would prefer a yellow eyed Rey to Kylo any day....and if his eyes didn't turn yellow when he killed Han, I don't think they will turn yellow.

panki wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Macha Ren wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:I just noticed an interesting addition to the Episode VIII crew list: SFX contact lens optician.

@Darth Dingbat

my kingdom for a leaked photo of Adam with yellow eyes.

@Macha Ren

And my kingdom for preferably not

I'll indulge in some secret fangirl fantasies of Benicio with yellow eyes, thankyouverymuch.

@Darth Dingbat

Me too (yellow eyed BDT).... I honestly would prefer a yellow eyed Rey to Kylo any day....and if his eyes didn't turn yellow when he killed Han, I don't think they will turn yellow.

@panki

Agree, I think he pass the chance to embrace the Dark Side when he killed Han, instead feel stronger he feel weaker. So I think right now, Kylo is standing at the crossed road, wondering what to do. While Rey, she's more raw and did not have the control like Kylo have, not to mention, she still have problems that could shake her; her parentage, family and the darkness in her

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

vaderito wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@Vaderito Agreed. I'm confident that the vision will surprise the audience somehow - there'd be no need for it if it just confirms what we already assume - but surely Kylo will still be culpable to an extent. Pablo referred to him as a murderer. The situation may just be grayer.

@BastilaBey

Murderer means premeditated. So he planned it. Why he did is the mystery part, not that he planned and committed it. Reasons can be various, from "kill them and you'll become as powerful as your grandpa" to "kill them and pain that's tearing up apart will be gone" to "kill them or I kill your mother". That's the big question mark. But yes, he killed them.

@vaderito

I think you might be attaching too much importance to Pablo's choice of words... I believe Pablo said that Han and Leia separated "when their son became a murderer".

Maybe he really is one, but even if he weren't, that's what we're meant to believe right now.

@Darth Dingbat

I agree with this. I'm not saying that Ben didn't become a murderer in the premeditated sense--I'm not overly attached to any headcanon around this incident.

I just tend to think that it's more likely is that Han and Leia's interpretation of what happened was that Ben became a murderer. (It would sure fit a lot more with the abandonment issues.) I won't get upset if I'm wrong; I just think that it's more complicated than Ben killing a bunch of padawans in cold blood.

@ISeeAnIsland

I agree with you, @ISeeAnIsland and @Darth Dingbat.  There is definitely a perception of Kylo Ren, correct or misleading, that the TPTB want to maintain right now.  Also, in basic terms, "murder" is the intent to kill someone without justification.  "Murder" does not require you to be "lying in wait" or having some grand plan.  It can be "murder" if you decide *1 second* before the act that you want to kill someone.  

I don't have any particular headcanon, but the fact that the padawans are armed is a gamechanger in my mind.  It potentially turns them from pure victims to fighters.  Also, it is quite possible that there could be a scenario where some Lord of the Flies/Hunger Games type of stuff took place and Ben justifiably took out those particular instigators ... but then continued in a state of blind, dark side rage and just killed more people than really deserved it.  That continuing, that dark-fueled madness kind of thing, that gets a lot closer to murder.

So no one here is saying that this spoiler necessitates Ben coming out smelling like a rose.  Even if he was kidnapped and tortured and brainwashed and broken, he's still got blood on his hands from later deeds.  I mean even if he was pure Manchurian he'd still have the guilt of not being strong enough to fight it off.  He'd still be a killer.  He'd still be beyond damaged.

I personally am really glad to see that the padawans were armed, because if they were unarmed, Reylo would be dead in the water.  Yes, Han is the big deal, but a bunch of innocent victim bodies on the ground, faceless or not, does not a viable romantic partner make.  But if he's Manchurian or semi-Manchurian or if he is in a legitimate battle with them over Force theology or whatever, but where the opponents actually have a shot at killing him, because they are would-be Jedi too, then Reylo has a shot.

I am also in the "no yellow eyes for Kylo" club. That one would kill the redemption and would make no sense at this point. A yellow eyed Rey would be more to my taste. I'd love to see the face of some people in the theater. Perfect sweet flower Rey Skywalker turning into a sith... And Kylo saving her from the Dark Side as the icing on the cake... Please, can we have that?

Why am I in such a machiavelic mood today? Oh, that's right, first week back to work after a long holiday. I am out for blood.

Darth Dingbat wrote:One thing I don't quite understand, though: how does one person - however powerful - just plain murder a bunch of grown and at least partially trained Force-sensitives who, by the looks of it, are armed with lightsabers? I assume they would fight back.

Unless they were killed by some means that killed a bunch of them instantly or something.

@Darth Dingbat

All this.  And on the bolded, either (1) Kylo/Ben was/is a lot more powerful than given credit for ... or (2) that's Luke, the uber-powerful, losing it and blowing up more than a hut.  I doubt the former.  Kylo/Ben is just not that together for something like that.  If it's the latter, which is not impossible, given the rumors about Luke being out-of-control, some of the deaths could have actually been tragically accidental ... *and* if Luke did that, he'd run away to a deserted island really fast and never come back because he'd want to protect everyone.

On the first part, I agree. How powerful is Kylo/Ben? Was Luke's Jedi class full of a bunch of slackers or something? I am wondering if Luke and Ben got into a really nasty fight and if they both have blood on their hands from collateral damage to the padawans.  I mean what's the burning temple about.  Did these people die in a burning building? Did Kylo/Ben and Luke set a fire in their fight?

Or to play devil's advocate, do Luke's eyes briefly turn yellow, and that's why he went into hiding?

ISeeAnIsland wrote:If it does turn out to be a self-defense situation for Ben, and he does end up taking them all out, I can't get over the parallel with Luke taking out all of the KoR.

@ISeeAnIsland

THIS!!!!!!!!

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:One thing I don't quite understand, though: how does one person - however powerful - just plain murder a bunch of grown and at least partially trained Force-sensitives who, by the looks of it, are armed with lightsabers? I assume they would fight back.

Unless they were killed by some means that killed a bunch of them instantly or something.

@Darth Dingbat

All this.  And on the bolded, either (1) Kylo/Ben was/is a lot more powerful than given credit for ... or (2) that's Luke, the uber-powerful, losing it and blowing up more than a hut. :face:  I doubt the former.  Kylo/Ben is just not that together for something like that.  If it's the latter, which is not impossible, given the rumors about Luke being out-of-control, some of the deaths could have actually been tragically accidental ... *and* if Luke did that, he'd run away to a deserted island really fast and never come back because he'd want to protect everyone.

On the first part, I agree. How powerful is Kylo/Ben? Was Luke's Jedi class full of a bunch of slackers or something? I am wondering if Luke and Ben got into a really nasty fight and if they both have blood on their hands from collateral damage to the padawans.  I mean what's the burning temple about.  Did these people die in a burning building? Did Kylo/Ben and Luke set a fire in their fight?

@SoloSideCousin

Forget the charter school jokes, now I'm thinking it's something like Deep Springs College. Which is a very unique weird regional college out here that's young men only where they go through the total Robert Bly right of passage thing. It's actually very prestigious in terms of alumni going on to Ivy League schools and advanced academic degrees (I using to work with a f***ing brilliant cardiologist who's an alumni). So if they were off doing that sort of Iron John Jedi stuff and something went wrong, including the other students ganging up on already troubled Ben after the Vader bombshell (like what happened to his mother), things could wrong and Snoke could use it as a crime of opportunity.

Either way, the 'spoiler' isn't anything which we've already speculated about here and which sounds like got edited out of the original plan for VII and Rey's vision. Sounds like she'll get the rest of the puzzle and that will play into the guilt/weird compassion she already has for him after having kicked his a** and left him on SKB. Could also play at him showing up in a rage, that he thought she was different but she's like the rest of the FS youths who turned on him.

SanghaRen wrote:I am also in the "no yellow eyes for Kylo" club. That one would kill the redemption and would make no sense at this point. A yellow eyed Rey would be more to my taste. I'd love to see the face of some people in the theater. Perfect sweet flower Rey Skywalker turning into a sith... And Kylo saving her from the Dark Side as the icing on the cake... Please, can we have that?

Why am I in such a machiavelic mood today? Oh, that's right, first week back to work after a long holiday. I am out for blood.

@SanghaRen

Sing it @SanghaRen!!!!!

Macha Ren wrote:Or to play devil's advocate, do Luke's eyes briefly turn yellow, and that's why he went into hiding?

@Macha Ren

I'd be on board with this. :-)  To be totally honest, I have never found Luke that interesting.  And even as a little kid back in 1983, I thought his sudden turn to Jedi zen-ness seemed to come out of nowhere and made him less of a flesh and blood human being.  The dude's a Skywalker.  They're not the most stable bunch, lol. I'd love it if Luke had a bit of a meltdown and had to rethink everything and pull himself back togeher. :-)

@snufkin

"
Forget the charter school jokes, now I'm thinking it's something like Deep Springs College. Which is a very unique weird regional college out here that's young men only where they go through the total Robert Bly right of passage thing. It's actually very prestigious in terms of alumni going on to Ivy League schools and advanced academic degrees (I using to work with a f***ing brilliant cardiologist who's an alumni). So if they were off doing that sort of Iron John Jedi stuff and something went wrong, including the other students ganging up on already troubled Ben after the Vader bombshell (like what happened to his mother), things could wrong and Snoke could use it as a crime of opportunity.

Either way, the 'spoiler' isn't anything which we've already speculated about here and which sounds like got edited out of the original plan for VII and Rey's vision. Sounds like she'll get the rest of the puzzle and that will play into the guilt/weird compassion she already has for him after having kicked his a** and left him on SKB. Could also play at him showing up in a rage, that he thought she was different but she's like the rest of the FS youths who turned on him."

I agree with all of this. :-)  But the bolded particularly grabbed me.  I have never been a fan of the "he wants to kill her" spoiler.  It never felt quite in character to me ... but this ... the anger coming from a place of really vulnerable hurt, as opposed to some effort to do Snoke's bidding or to get darker (To me, Snoke was already shown to be a liar when Kylo got weaker from killing Han), feels much truer to me.  From AD's performance I definitely get the sense that at the bottom of it all that Kylo/Ben is a very hurt person, like wounded animal hurt ... and a sense of how she may have been like the others would bring out "wounded animal" blind rage for sure.

Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Excellent point @Mrs Ben Solo. I have said this before, but I think the books are little dress rehearsals at times for kinds of things we will see in the movies ... and I think the reaction to Leia and Ransolm's hatred of Vader could very easily be a hint of what is to come. Also, the padawans burning the temple is an unexpected, but brilliant thought. They really could think it is all lies and want to attack both of Vader's descendants.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I agree with most of it. I think it is very plausible scenario for Ben s motivations. As well, good questions on padawans and Luke and reaction to Vader reveal.

Everything that was written today on the subject by everyone here is very interesting and clever.
We must only decide on the start of the Snoke s influence. When it started and how? What was Ben s weakness that Snoke used to pull him into his games.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Maybe the padawans set the temple on fire. I don't rule out Luke or Ben being responsible for the fire if their powers went out of control, but it could be the Vader reveal that lit the touch paper so to speak. I keep thinking about how visceral the reaction was towards Leia and she was among respectable politicians. We know nothing about Luke's other students or where they came from. Again, I'm left thinking of Ransolm Casterfo's burning hatred of Palpatine and Vader for what they did to his home planet. We focus on how Ben must have felt after finding out his family kept such a big thing secret from him, but what about Luke's other padawans? Wouldn't they also feel cheated and duped for placing their trust and faith in the son of Darth Vader? I guess if they were all in their late teens, they wouldn't have experienced the Empire first hand. But it was recent history and the effects on families would still have been felt. Whatever happened, I don't think we can assume that Ben was the only one upset by the news.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I agree with most of it. I think it is very plausible scenario for Ben s motivations. As well, good questions on padawans and Luke and reaction to Vader reveal.

Everything that was written today on the subject by everyone here is very interesting and clever.
We must only decide on the start of the Snoke s influence. When it started and how? What was Ben s weakness that Snoke used to pull him into his games.

@Darth_Awakened

In TFA, Leia said that Snoke had been there "from the start" and it was him that had turned Ben to the dark side. In the Aftermath: Life Debt book, a very pregnant Leia seems to sense some kind of malevolent presence around her baby. She could just have been projecting her own fears, I'm not sure. I haven't actually read the book yet only the extract that was posted when Leia was sensing her baby through the force. But, depending on what and who Snoke actually is, there's the potential for him to have been targetting Ben through the force from before he was born. However, Ben seems to have resisted Snoke for a long time or at least struggled enough to maintain his Jedi training, unless he was being duplicitous all the time. The latter doesn't seem likely, though, given how torn apart he still was in TFA. If he had been cruelly decieving his family for years prior to actually joining Snoke, you would have thought he wouldn't need reassuring and guiding all the time by the time we meet him 5-6 years after his fall.