ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 2

@BastilaBey I was joking bout the Reywalkiest of Reywalkers, not Tracy lol! But yeah I think you're her about her not believing Reywalker anymore. Her recent comments from this and previous podcasts have suggested this.

Edit: Wait, I think I'm getting Tracy and Amanda mixed up lol!

BastilaBey wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@Queen of the Knights I usually try to be nice with people's SW speculation, but when Tracy said she didn't think the island Kylo saw in Rey's mind was Ahch-To, I actually did an

@BastilaBey

Even the Reywalkiest of the Reywalkers have made that connection.... How could it be anything else  

@IoJovi

Ikr...she thinks it's Rey dreaming of her home planet, from repressed memories that Kylo uncovers. People seriously like to overcomplicate this stuff, she ends up on an island in the middle of an ocean by the end of the movie...yeah, it's supposed to be connected. That's how stories work.

@applecrumble122 Lol I don't even think she believes they're related anymore, her rationale seems to be that Rey really wants to find her family so of course that's all she's going to dream about. It's a little weird because obviously she even knows the spoiler about kylo coming to ahch-to. That's why it's important that he saw it in Rey's mind...basic storytelling. And now I sound like I'm being condescending and mean, dammit.

Also those comments about finn...yikes. Saying he provided some of the comic relief in tfa is valid, sure, but that he messes everything up and is a 'dipshit'? Not very nice.

@BastilaBey
@Vaderito might like to hear them say that. 

Lol I don't agree with them on that. I would say it was actually part of the comic relief that he didn't mess up. Like, everything fell into place despite his plans being so rushed and awkward.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:@Queen of the Knights I usually try to be nice with people's SW speculation, but when Tracy said she didn't think the island Kylo saw in Rey's mind was Ahch-To, I actually did an

@BastilaBey

Even the Reywalkiest of the Reywalkers have made that connection.... How could it be anything else  

@IoJovi

Ikr...she thinks it's Rey dreaming of her home planet, from repressed memories that Kylo uncovers. People seriously like to overcomplicate this stuff, she ends up on an island in the middle of an ocean by the end of the movie...yeah, it's supposed to be connected. That's how stories work.

@applecrumble122 Lol I don't even think she believes they're related anymore, her rationale seems to be that Rey really wants to find her family so of course that's all she's going to dream about. It's a little weird because obviously she even knows the spoiler about kylo coming to ahch-to. That's why it's important that he saw it in Rey's mind...basic storytelling. And now I sound like I'm being condescending and mean, dammit.

Also those comments about finn...yikes. Saying he provided some of the comic relief in tfa is valid, sure, but that he messes everything up and is a 'dipshit'? Not very nice.

@BastilaBey
@Vaderito might like to hear them say that. 

Lol I don't agree with them on that. I would say it was actually part of the comic relief that he didn't mess up. Like, everything fell into place despite his plans being so rushed and awkward.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I do! I like that 180 degree a lot! 

Great transcript @BastilaBey as always you are on top of things.

Can't wait for spoilers. Will give us something to talk about.

Crazy Luke is perfectly in line with old rumors about uncontrollable power and self-exile. Hell exploding hut! 

Spoilers as soon as this coming Monday's podcast?

here's hoping though they may not be that soon.

Rey was having Force visions before she ever left Jakku, I think. She saw a tiny glimpse of her destiny: to learn the ways of the Force on that island. (I do think Luke is going to accept her as his student.) Anakin was also having visions/dreams of his future while he was still a slave in the novelization for Phantom Menace. It seems to be a common occurrence for Force users who haven't yet discovered their powers.

No matter how much I am excited about Rogue One, I am as well much angry about R1 stopping spoilers for VIII.

I am afraid we have to wait another 2 months + Christmas season for something juicy to pop-up.
Hopefully I am wrong.

No matter how hard lucasfilm and "spoiler sources" are all pushing "rey random nobody who's background is not important to the story"

I have an incredibly hard time believing that they would give everything which is usually main character building to Kylo instead of rey. So Kylo gets the inner and external conflicts, he gets the daddy issues, he gets the legacy story, the redemption story, all the importance of the former trilogies lies completely with him and maintaining the skywalker legacy. He carries the mantle of the saga and previous stories. He gets the reconciliation and understanding of his past. All of this gets taken away from this generations lead female protagonist of Star Wars and is given to a man, leaving her a blank slate with no link to any past or the saga as a whole or anything which other lead characters get in stories in order to make them three dimensional.


She's not like Ashoka because she was not built up as as a mystery.

there is no way rey random is the final ending answer. why would Pablo etc be giving the answer away so early? It's not even supposed to be revealed until episode 9 and that's straight from the directors mouth.

It may not be important in 8 who she is, but it seems to be important for 9

I mean it's extremely character and gender degrading if this generations lead female character of the saga is just being used as a red herring to hide a mans greater importance to the story.

If we are not getting the actual answer to who she is in 8, what if the random pushing is also a red herring? misleading people for episode 9 when reys background will actually be revealed according to the director.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@BastilaBey I was joking bout the Reywalkiest of Reywalkers, not Tracy lol! But yeah I think you're her about her not believing Reywalker anymore. Her recent comments from this and previous podcasts have suggested this.

Edit: Wait, I think I'm getting Tracy and Amanda mixed up lol!

@AppleCrumble122

which one of them made a turnaround on rey skywalker?

Gemini wrote:No matter how hard lucasfilm and "spoiler sources" are all pushing "rey random nobody who's background is not important to the story"

I have an incredibly hard time believing that they would give everything which is usually main character building to Kylo instead of rey. So Kylo gets the inner and external conflicts, he gets the daddy issues, he gets the legacy story, the redemption story, all the importance of the former trilogies lies completely with him and maintaining the skywalker legacy. He carries the mantle of the saga and previous stories. He gets the reconciliation and understanding of his past. All of this gets taken away from this generations lead female protagonist of Star Wars and is given to a man, leaving her a blank slate with no link to any past or the saga as a whole or anything which other lead characters get in stories in order to make them three dimensional.

@Gemini

Well, blame the reluctance of the filmmakers to create a genuinely complicated female character, opting instead to make their female lead as likeable as possible at the cost of everything else. Even if Rey turns out to have a super-important heritage, it's going to be secondary compared to the Skywalker drama and her arc is unlikely to be as dramatic as Kylo's.

Pablo never has and never will give a concrete answer to Rey's parentage. I don't really see any of his tweets pointing specifically at Rey random and he wouldn't reveal anything on Twitter anyway. The only unambiguos debunk was done by Daisy when she confiirmed Rey was not Han and Leia's daughter. The movie itself along with subsequent related material and hints from production decidedly point away from Rey Skywalker, but beyond that we really have no idea of what Rey's story will actually be about. IMO what's worse is to think that Rey can only be important to her own story if she is somehow related to a well-known character. That's a much bigger disservice than saying Kylo's story somehow shifts the focus away from the protagonist. It doesn't. If we're given details of Kylo's life and family drama, it's because it's all meant to play some role in Rey's story, not the other way round. C. Trevorrow's words "Rey is a character that is important in this universe, not just in the context of TFA, but in the entire galaxy" do not read as "unimportant". I personally think that having a legacy relation is not the defining assset that Rey needs to be the key figure in the story.

Maria Antonietta wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:@BastilaBey I was joking bout the Reywalkiest of Reywalkers, not Tracy lol! But yeah I think you're her about her not believing Reywalker anymore. Her recent comments from this and previous podcasts have suggested this.

Edit: Wait, I think I'm getting Tracy and Amanda mixed up lol!

@AppleCrumble122

which one of them made a turnaround on rey skywalker?

@Maria Antonietta

They all did but that isn't something to mock because people have right to make turnarounds based on new evidence. I've no problem with anyone who drops one theory/headcanon in the wake of debunk/mounting evidence to the contrary. I've problem with stubborn hold onto that stuff and inability to move on while terrorizing everyone who disagrees. Like Soloists and Reywalkers. The former should have moved on the moment they'd seen the movie, let alone after DR spelled it out loud. The latter were finished the moment Pablo debunked "Rey was dumped after the massacre" theory that was the only thing Reywalker was really built on (and that was super shaky itself). Let alone after JJ's awesome slip, Bloodline, etc.

But if you want the biggest evidence that Rey isn't Reylwated, look no further than Rey and Kylo interaction. We've talked a lot about Interrogation and Snow Fight/Force Sex, but it all really started with this moment:

















He made her feel naked. Why didn't Finn make her feel naked? They were way too comfortable with each other, just like siblings. Would a brother make one feel naked? or a cousin? Sorry but they didn't give her that Birth of Venus/David and Bathsheba moment to emphasize that they are siblings/cousins, spiritual or otherwise. And than there's whole lotta more.


Heck, what's the first thing she ever sees of Kylo? His phallic symbol!






Talk about sexual awakening. She starts as this totally child-like woman who meets another guy that acts just as child-like, as if they are 2 kids in the sandbox (cue sandbox planet). And than she reaches a forest planet and - boom - things start getting very sexy. The saber (phallic symbol) is calling to her. Than she sees phallic symbol in all its might. Than the owner makes her feel naked. Etc.


Not related. That's your biggest proof.

@vaderito For me, it's this moment



I do not believe that Disney would approve of the idea of a big brother or older cousin saying that to the heroine while she's strapped to a chair. Even without a kiss, that's a hundred times worse than the Luke/Leia disaster. Kasdan and JJ were going for actual sexual subtext here, and Kasdan knows what he's doing when it comes to writing sex (see: Body Heat). It's not even about Kylo knowingly playing into that himself, but more like subliminal messaging to the audience that these two are NOT family.

As open as I am to Rey Kenobi many would regard that heritage as lesser than being a Skywalker. Even being a Solo from Leia's line is seen as lesser in some people's eyes!

I personally see no problem with Rey not being descended from a non-legacy character. She doesn't need to be defined by her bloodline, it's her story that counts. The truth of the matter is if she's not Luke's daughter some hardcore fans wouldn't give a fig about her anyway. The general audience just want a good story and probably aren't invested in any legacy character bloodline. The target audience of young kids love Rey for being Rey just as people loved Luke back in the day before the Skywalker name meant anything.

And this








That's not your average straining-to-call-the-Force face. That's sexual pleasure face.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:As open as I am to Rey Kenobi many would regard that heritage as lesser than being a Skywalker. Even being a Solo from Leia's line is seen as lesser in some people's eyes!

I personally see no problem with Rey not being descended from a non-legacy character. She doesn't need to be defined by her bloodline, it's her story that counts. The truth of the matter is if she's not Luke's daughter some hardcore fans wouldn't give a fig about her anyway. The general audience just want a good story and probably aren't invested in any legacy character bloodline. The target audience of young kids love Rey for being Rey just as people loved Luke back in the day before the Skywalker name meant anything.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Exactly. To say Rey isn't a worthy character if she isn't well known, is the same as saying Kylo Ren isn't a Skywalker because his bloodline descends from Leia instead of Luke. If she is random (which I'm also not sold on), I'm not going to prejudge the story before it's told. We already know the writers are incredibly competent, and I have full faith we'll get something that's nothing less than spectacular.

There's also something very poetic about the fallen son of heroes and the daughter of nothing finding their place in the galaxy with each other.

@Queen of the Knights

I'd have to disagree

Imagine if Ren was not a legacy character. No one would be emotionally invested in his story as much as they are. That's why they changed him from random to a legacy. Han and Leias only son, the last skywalker has to be redeemed. It holds far more emotional impact wth the audience if he is not a random Jedi killer. So why on earth would they do this to a character who is supposed to be the lead? Why must he outshine her? My answer is that they won't. Just a guess.

If Ren is a legacy and she's a random, he will always be he most memorable character and more important to the saga as a whole than her. To me it's just very important that she has some equal standing with him and not just marry into the legacy.

Gemini wrote:@Queen of the Knights

I'd have to disagree

Imagine if Ren was not a legacy character. No one would be emotionally invested in his story as much as they are. That's why they changed him from random to a legacy. Han and Leias only son, the last skywalker has to be redeemed. It holds far more emotional impact wth the audience if he is not a random Jedi killer. So why on earth would they do this to a character who is supposed to be the lead? Why must he outshine her? My answer is that they won't. Just a guess.

If Ren is a legacy and she's a random, he will always be he most memorable character and more important to the saga as a whole than her. To me it's just very important that she has some equal standing with him and not just marry into the legacy.

@Gemini

If you look at the original trilogy, the story is actually about Vader's journey, seen through Luke's eyes. Yes Luke is the main character, and this doesn't make him any less beloved in the audience's eyes. And back in 1977, nobody gave two siths about the Skywalker name - Luke was as random as they come. Yet, he was beloved in his own right.

I see this played out in nearly the same way as the OT - this indeed will be about Kylo's journey seen though Rey's eyes. Only this time instead of going from enemies to father and son, we have enemies to lovers. It doesn't make Rey any less important by saving the Skywalker legacy. She'll help him come to terms with his past, just as he'll help her come to terms with hers.

@Vaderito

@BastilaBey

This is always the moment that clinched it for me. You don't make a cousin look at a cousin like this, they make a point of him stepping back to get a good look at her face and lips in a longing way, totes cousins.

Gemini wrote:@Queen of the Knights

I'd have to disagree

Imagine if Ren was not a legacy character. No one would be emotionally invested in his story as much as they are. That's why they changed him from random to a legacy. Han and Leias only son, the last skywalker has to be redeemed. It holds far more emotional impact wth the audience if he is not a random Jedi killer. So why on earth would they do this to a character who is supposed to be the lead? Why must he outshine her? My answer is that they won't. Just a guess.

If Ren is a legacy and she's a random, he will always be he most memorable character and more important to the saga as a whole  than her. To me it's just very important that she has some equal standing with him and not just marry into the legacy.

@Gemini
We shouldn't pretend that this would be a first for the franchise though. I would be willing to argue that it is not Luke, Leia, Han Solo, Chewie, Yoda, etc. who is the most memorable character to come out of the OT. It's this guy right here:



Iconic to the max. Even people who don't know SW at all know him, his costume, his voice and some of his most powerful lines. I cannot say the same for any other character in the OT, not even the protagonist, Luke! And Anakin's narrative importance was fleshed out as soon as the Prequels were made. George Lucas even went as far as to say that the original SW stories were the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, not the hero's journey of Luke.

As for Ren, creative decisions made him the iconic character he is. We can't overlook that either. It's kind of pointless to say "they changed him from non-legacy to legacy so people would care". That wasn't just some minor alteration back in the Arndt treatment, it was the idea that ended up defining TFA and the timeline that preceded it. It shaped the entirety of what we know of the ST today, it decided the fates of the OT characters and it makes Kylo's future much more transparent. Saying that nobody here would care about the character if he wasn't Han and Leia's kid just seems a little shortsighted to me. He is. He had to be. His legacy status is a game-changer, and that's why the Reywalker red-herring existed to begin with.

I also want to point out that it's been heavily hinted (and now the way leakers are talking point more in this direction) that we are not getting a definitive answer about Rey's origins until Episode IX. So I wouldn't be bummed by leakers talking about Rey as though she is "random". In the context of TFA, and perhaps in the context of VIII as well, she is and perhaps will continue to be. With what Trevorrow has said about IX, it's pretty logical to assume that IX will be handling Rey's origin mystery, not VIII. 

I still don't think a Kenobi lineage would put Rey "on-par" with Kylo. Not even close. But that's just me. Kenobi means... nothing, in the grand scheme of things. There are "bigger" things out there than legacy name-drops, as I've said a hundred times over.

@Iojovi

But Luke is still descended from a legacy character. That's what makes it so poweful, his link to his past.

Even Persephone (who Rens abduction of rey is supposed to resemble hades and Persephone )was the daughter of Zeus and not a random no one from a nothing background.

I don't think anyone here is saying that Rey is not a "worthy" character unless she is related to someone, but I believe what some are trying to say is that saying she is random and that makes her a better character than a legacy character, is in fact, a fallacy. For me, this is star wars and it operates under certain precedent created by the PT & OT, it's a saga, how Rey fits in that depends on a lineage or lack thereof.  

This was Vader's story but it was also Obi wan's they were dual protagonists, GL gave us enough of Obi's origin in TPM that Vader's story is his story it is intertwined.

Luke as the protagonist, hero is journey was obvious within the first 30 minutes of ANH, no one in the audience had to wait 1 hour and 2 years to get the gist of what his purpose was. But his purpose was predicated on his lineage.

I will say Kenobi is not and never was "nothing" he is huge in the Saga, huge with GL, huge with the fandom,  Kenobi is the key to Vader's tragedy, he is the catalyst.

Gemini wrote:@Iojovi

But Luke is still descended from a legacy character. That's what makes it so poweful, his link to his past.

Even Persephone (who Rens abduction of rey is supposed to resemble hades and Persephone )was the daughter of Zeus and not a random no one from a nothing background.

@Gemini
It's really the bolded you have to get out of your mind, because that's not going to be Rey at all, legacy relation or not. There are unique narrative ways for her to be important to the galaxy, universe, mythology, etc. that have nothing to do with her being related to someone we've met before. You just have to be patient and let the story be told. But Rey is NOT a "random no one from a nothing background" already. There are mysteries surrounding her abandonment and her origins that were raised by the film itself. I have never disagreed with you on that. We just disagree that a legacy relation is the only answer. To me, it isn't.

I'm still failing to see how a legacy relation to Obi-Wan could be "powerful" storytelling when he hasn't even been mentioned in the context of this trilogy yet. They've introduced a bunch of other plot-points, but no Obi-Wan. That's a HUGE damper in the theory for me. Always has been. I expect the ST to elaborate on plot-points it has already brought up (Ahch-To, Snoke, Jakku maybe, origins of the Force, etc.) Narratively it would make sense for Rey to connect to one of these, not to a character who hasn't even been mentioned.

If we are back to the circular argument that Rey must be descended from a legacy bloodline then logic dictates that she must be Luke Skywalker's daughter. Nothing else would trump Kylo/Ben being a Solo from the female Skywalker bloodline in some people's eyes. Rey being a Kenobi would certainly not be equal to Kylo being from the Skywalker bloodline in the opinion of those fans.