Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

How can they be sw fans? They hate it. That's the truth. I hope they will cry by the end of the trilogy.

Rogue Rey wrote:In the latest Jedi Council episode (posted in the Rumours thread) on Collider the panel is asked if they'd sooner see Kylo Ren redeemed or Rey turn to the Dark Side by the end of Ep IX and they all said Rey turn or at least dabble with the Dark Side.

Their reasons against Kylo Ren redemption were:

They've already seen a bad guy be redeemed - Darth Vader
He killed Han Solo and can't come back from it and if he were to be redeemed then it would lessen the impact of Han's death

I don't agree with the idea that it would lessen Han's death if Kylo is redeemed because that is what Han wanted and died for that belief - he believed it was possible even in his dying moment.  So Kylo Ren going through the whole trilogy as a generic bad guy just to get killed off at the end of IX is what they want.  What a waste of a character and a waste of an actor.  Adam Driver is such an emotive actor that you're surely not going to waste his talents and his ability to express every little emotion with simple gestures by having him just play a bad guy to get killed off.

As for the waste of a character they could have kept Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren - the right hand man of Snoke rather than make Kylo Ren actually be Ben Solo the heir of legends and legacies.  Why do that if you're just going to have him be a bad guy who's only purpose is to be killed off?

I can understand people's feelings regarding him killing Han Solo - it was the worst thing he could have done.  But to have Han and Leia's baby boy being forever lost to the Dark Side and getting killed off in a typical good v bad/hero v villain fight at the end of IX is boring and almost a disservice to both Han and Leia.  Han would have died in vain (his last tender gesture and his whole speech would have been pointless) and Leia would have lost everything (apart from Luke - a brother she clearly doesn't see much of).  She'd have lost the loves of her life - her husband and her son.

@Rogue Rey

I couldn't agree more. The whole "he needs to get eviler and eviler" thing just shows such a lack of imagination IMO. I know that is a little harsh, but come on! It would be repetitive for a bad guy to be redeemed? How about spending a whole trilogy watching a guy slouch closer and closer to the dark side ... because we've already done that with the prequels ... and that whole process was less than satisfactory storywise.

How about hoping that the writers can achieve the seemingly impossible? Bring back Han's killer and not killing him for it? I mean that is the much harder task.

How about forcing the audience into a complex place where Kylo/Ben's actions though immoral on the surface might arguably be "moral" if Kylo/Ben is somehow willing to sacrifice himself and damn himself for others like @Reynak and @Darth Dingbat were talking about the other day in relation to Scorsese's new movie Silence where a character might damn himself to save others?
KK actually has experience with this kind of question as the producer of Munich, and as a frequent collaborator with writer Tony Kushner, who never takes the easy way. Neither does Rian Johnson.

To think that this team is going to close all kinds of narrative doors for themselves because conventional thought mandates certain character actions equal certain outcomes is just so short-sighted to me.

KK is used being nominated for Best Picture Oscars. But now that she runs Lucasfilm she suddenly doesn't care about critical acclaim? No way. That woman wants to produce movies that are paradigm changing, that are on par with Nolan's The Dark Knight and go beyond. And you don't "go beyond" following "paint by number" rules.

I just saw Manchester by the Sea. It is heart wrenching and excellent. It will be nominated for Best Picture and there is nothing "paint by numbers" about it. It's obviously a different genre than SW, but it challenges the audience, makes you ask questions down in your soul and surprises you. I bet you anything that KK wants to do the same. Daring, challenging, even tempting the audience to forgive Kylo Ren when he seems unforgivable would do just that ... unlike turning him into Anakin with black hair.

The script makes a big deal about a rebirth of a sun....aka (son)

They wouldn't have kylo so torn all the time.
Han in the book, forgave his son and hoped one day his son would forgive him in return. Something bad happened to kylo. Even Lor San tekka says to kylo "something far worse has happened to you".

Has someone notice how all those fanboys (who helplessly want Kylo to be more evil) rarely talk about Kylo killing his father, they usually talk about Kylo Ren killing Han Solo - their childhood hero.

It's personal to them. I know it's quite irrational as it seems, because most of those guys are grown ups. Most of them are quite intelligent (Colliders for example), however they still mourn Han.

Darth_Awakened wrote:Has someone notice how all those fanboys (who helplessly want Kylo to be more evil) rarely talk about Kylo killing his father, they usually talk about Kylo Ren killing Han Solo - their childhood hero.

It's personal to them. I know it's quite irrational as it seems, because most of those guys are grown ups. Most of them are quite intelligent (Colliders for example), however they still mourn Han.

@Darth_Awakened

if they love him, they should feel the same for his son. they're not real sw fans. that's all.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:In the latest Jedi Council episode (posted in the Rumours thread) on Collider the panel is asked if they'd sooner see Kylo Ren redeemed or Rey turn to the Dark Side by the end of Ep IX and they all said Rey turn or at least dabble with the Dark Side.

Their reasons against Kylo Ren redemption were:

They've already seen a bad guy be redeemed - Darth Vader
He killed Han Solo and can't come back from it and if he were to be redeemed then it would lessen the impact of Han's death

I don't agree with the idea that it would lessen Han's death if Kylo is redeemed because that is what Han wanted and died for that belief - he believed it was possible even in his dying moment.  So Kylo Ren going through the whole trilogy as a generic bad guy just to get killed off at the end of IX is what they want.  What a waste of a character and a waste of an actor.  Adam Driver is such an emotive actor that you're surely not going to waste his talents and his ability to express every little emotion with simple gestures by having him just play a bad guy to get killed off.

As for the waste of a character they could have kept Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren - the right hand man of Snoke rather than make Kylo Ren actually be Ben Solo the heir of legends and legacies.  Why do that if you're just going to have him be a bad guy who's only purpose is to be killed off?

I can understand people's feelings regarding him killing Han Solo - it was the worst thing he could have done.  But to have Han and Leia's baby boy being forever lost to the Dark Side and getting killed off in a typical good v bad/hero v villain fight at the end of IX is boring and almost a disservice to both Han and Leia.  Han would have died in vain (his last tender gesture and his whole speech would have been pointless) and Leia would have lost everything (apart from Luke - a brother she clearly doesn't see much of).  She'd have lost the loves of her life - her husband and her son.

@Rogue Rey

I couldn't agree more. The whole "he needs to get eviler and eviler" thing just shows such a lack of imagination IMO. I know that is a little harsh, but come on! It would be repetitive for a bad guy to be redeemed? How about spending a whole trilogy watching a guy slouch closer and closer to the dark side ... because we've already done that with the prequels ... and that whole process was less than satisfactory storywise.

How about hoping that the writers can achieve the seemingly impossible? Bring back Han's killer and not killing him for it? I mean that is the much harder task.

How about forcing the audience into a complex place where Kylo/Ben's actions though immoral on the surface might arguably be "moral" if Kylo/Ben is somehow willing to sacrifice himself and damn himself for others like @Reynak and @Darth Dingbat were talking about the other day in relation to Scorsese's new movie Silence where a character might damn himself to save others?
KK actually has experience with this kind of question as the producer of Munich, and as a frequent collaborator with writer Tony Kushner, who never takes the easy way. Neither does Rian Johnson.

To think that this team is going to close all kinds of narrative doors for themselves because conventional thought mandates certain character actions equal certain outcomes is just so short-sighted to me.

KK is used being nominated for Best Picture Oscars. But now that she runs Lucasfilm she suddenly doesn't care about critical acclaim? No way. That woman wants to produce movies that are paradigm changing, that are on par with Nolan's The Dark Knight and go beyond. And you don't "go beyond" following "paint by number" rules.

I just saw Manchester by the Sea. It is heart wrenching and excellent. It will be nominated for Best Picture and there is nothing "paint by numbers" about it. It's obviously a different genre than SW, but it challenges the audience, makes you ask questions down in your soul and surprises you. I bet you anything that KK wants to do the same. Daring, challenging, even tempting the audience to forgive Kylo Ren when he seems unforgivable would do just that ... unlike turning him into Anakin with black hair.

@SoloSideCousin

And KK chose Adam for the role herself. I wouldn't choose someone like Adam for a cookie-cutter type villain. Of course he could play a villain or any type of character, but nobody would have chosen someone with Adam's looks and traits as an actor to play a cartoonishly archetypical villain. That'd bee silly as hell. They really wanted Adam for a reason and obviously not to play a generic villain.

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:Has someone notice how all those fanboys (who helplessly want Kylo to be more evil) rarely talk about Kylo killing his father, they usually talk about Kylo Ren killing Han Solo - their childhood hero.

It's personal to them. I know it's quite irrational as it seems, because most of those guys are grown ups. Most of them are quite intelligent (Colliders for example), however they still mourn Han.

@Darth_Awakened

if they love him, they should feel the same for his son. they're not real sw fans. that's all.

@Maria Antonietta

If Ben was lost for ever -and he is Ben,not Kylo, because that's the name his parents gave him and the one Han used to call him-,that would break Leia's heart and also Han's, wherever he is supposed to be now. If there are Force Ghosts, I'd like to believe there's also a place for "mere" mortals in SW universe. The ultimate tragedy would be for Han to have died in vain and for Leia to have sent him to his death also in vain. So those guys don't really mourn Han but their headcanons, or perhaps they feel offended because they are parents themselves and are shocked by the horror of being hypothetically killed by one's own son. Anyway, Han is not like them and never was, because his last gesture was to forgive his son and show him his unconditional love.

These guys lack imagination, sensitivity and story telling understanding, but I couldn't care less what they think at this point. It's up to them if they want to continue living in denial, they are entitled to their choices, which are also a sign of intolerance.Those who don't accept other ways of thinking and that there are other ways to see the world, what's worse, those who want to smother and ridicule other people's opinions and views are beyong annoying and I have no time for them, sorry.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but certain fans have done away with my supplies of patience, really.

Reynak wrote:

Maria Antonietta wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:Has someone notice how all those fanboys (who helplessly want Kylo to be more evil) rarely talk about Kylo killing his father, they usually talk about Kylo Ren killing Han Solo - their childhood hero.

It's personal to them. I know it's quite irrational as it seems, because most of those guys are grown ups. Most of them are quite intelligent (Colliders for example), however they still mourn Han.

@Darth_Awakened

if they love him, they should feel the same for his son. they're not real sw fans. that's all.

@Maria Antonietta

If Ben was lost for ever -and he is Ben,not Kylo, because that's the name his parents gave him and the one Han used to call him-,that would break Leia's heart and also Han's, wherever he is supposed to be now. If there are Force Ghosts, I'd like to believe there's also a place for "mere" mortals in SW universe. The ultimate tragedy would be for Han to have died in vain and for Leia to have sent him to his death also in vain. So those guys don't really mourn Han but their headcanons, or perhaps they feel offended because they are parents themselves and are shocked by the horror of being hypothetically killed by one's own son. Anyway, Han is not like them and never was, because his last gesture was to forgive his son and show him his unconditional love.

These guys lack imagination, sensitivity and story telling understanding, but I couldn't care less what they think at this point. It's up to them if they want to continue living in denial, they are entitled to their choices, which are also a sign of intolerance.Those who don't accept other ways of thinking and that there are other ways to see the world, what's worse, those who want to smother and ridicule other people's opinions and views are beyong annoying and I have no time for them, sorry.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but certain fans have done away with my supplies of patience, really.

@Reynak

I thought this was very interesting and foreshadowing Kylos return to the light.

"I thought I could shield him from Snokes influence and you from what was happening". Her voice dropped. "It's clear now that I was wrong. WHETHER YOUR INVOLEMENT would have made a difference, we'll never know. (After this Han dies. Hans death. Hans involvement will make a difference of bringing kylo back to the light. Back home to Leia)

LondonGal555 wrote:I thought this was very interesting and foreshadowing Kylos return to the light.

"I thought I could shield him from Snokes influence and you from what was happening". Her voice dropped. "It's clear now that I was wrong. WHETHER YOUR INVOLEMENT would have made a difference, we'll never know. (After this Han dies. Hans death. Hans involvement will make a difference of bringing kylo back to the light. Back home to Leia)

@LondonGal555

Agree with you! Harrison Ford himself said that Han's “destiny is resolved in a powerful and effective way,”. If this is no foreshadowing for Ben's redemption, then what for is he dead?

Reynak wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:In the latest Jedi Council episode (posted in the Rumours thread) on Collider the panel is asked if they'd sooner see Kylo Ren redeemed or Rey turn to the Dark Side by the end of Ep IX and they all said Rey turn or at least dabble with the Dark Side.

Their reasons against Kylo Ren redemption were:

They've already seen a bad guy be redeemed - Darth Vader
He killed Han Solo and can't come back from it and if he were to be redeemed then it would lessen the impact of Han's death

I don't agree with the idea that it would lessen Han's death if Kylo is redeemed because that is what Han wanted and died for that belief - he believed it was possible even in his dying moment.  So Kylo Ren going through the whole trilogy as a generic bad guy just to get killed off at the end of IX is what they want.  What a waste of a character and a waste of an actor.  Adam Driver is such an emotive actor that you're surely not going to waste his talents and his ability to express every little emotion with simple gestures by having him just play a bad guy to get killed off.

As for the waste of a character they could have kept Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren - the right hand man of Snoke rather than make Kylo Ren actually be Ben Solo the heir of legends and legacies.  Why do that if you're just going to have him be a bad guy who's only purpose is to be killed off?

I can understand people's feelings regarding him killing Han Solo - it was the worst thing he could have done.  But to have Han and Leia's baby boy being forever lost to the Dark Side and getting killed off in a typical good v bad/hero v villain fight at the end of IX is boring and almost a disservice to both Han and Leia.  Han would have died in vain (his last tender gesture and his whole speech would have been pointless) and Leia would have lost everything (apart from Luke - a brother she clearly doesn't see much of).  She'd have lost the loves of her life - her husband and her son.

@Rogue Rey

I couldn't agree more. The whole "he needs to get eviler and eviler" thing just shows such a lack of imagination IMO. I know that is a little harsh, but come on! It would be repetitive for a bad guy to be redeemed? How about spending a whole trilogy watching a guy slouch closer and closer to the dark side ... because we've already done that with the prequels ... and that whole process was less than satisfactory storywise.

How about hoping that the writers can achieve the seemingly impossible? Bring back Han's killer and not killing him for it? I mean that is the much harder task.

How about forcing the audience into a complex place where Kylo/Ben's actions though immoral on the surface might arguably be "moral" if Kylo/Ben is somehow willing to sacrifice himself and damn himself for others like @Reynak and @Darth Dingbat were talking about the other day in relation to Scorsese's new movie Silence where a character might damn himself to save others?
KK actually has experience with this kind of question as the producer of Munich, and as a frequent collaborator with writer Tony Kushner, who never takes the easy way. Neither does Rian Johnson.

To think that this team is going to close all kinds of narrative doors for themselves because conventional thought mandates certain character actions equal certain outcomes is just so short-sighted to me.

KK is used being nominated for Best Picture Oscars. But now that she runs Lucasfilm she suddenly doesn't care about critical acclaim? No way. That woman wants to produce movies that are paradigm changing, that are on par with Nolan's The Dark Knight and go beyond. And you don't "go beyond" following "paint by number" rules.

I just saw Manchester by the Sea. It is heart wrenching and excellent. It will be nominated for Best Picture and there is nothing "paint by numbers" about it. It's obviously a different genre than SW, but it challenges the audience, makes you ask questions down in your soul and surprises you. I bet you anything that KK wants to do the same. Daring, challenging, even tempting the audience to forgive Kylo Ren when he seems unforgivable would do just that ... unlike turning him into Anakin with black hair.

@SoloSideCousin

And KK chose Adam for the role herself. I wouldn't choose someone like Adam for a cookie-cutter type villain. Of course he could play a villain or any type of character, but nobody would have chosen someone with Adam's looks and traits as an actor to play a cartoonishly archetypical villain. That'd bee silly as hell. They really wanted Adam for a reason and obviously not to play a generic villain.

@Reynak

Couldn't agree more.  

If I remember rightly (please correct me if I'm wrong) but didn't it take a lot of convincing to get Adam on board in the first place?

Also I can't imagine the team would have allowed Adam to portray Kylo the way he did (especially when he was unmasked with Han and to an extent with Rey) if the end goal is Kylo Ren is nothing more than a typical one note bog standard bad guy who's going to get killed off without any redeemable qualities in a rather generic fight with the hero.

There's frankly as much chance of Kylo remaining unredeemed by the end of the trilogy as there is of the ST ending with Snoke and FO winning and Rey's head displayed on a pike outside of Snoke's palace. And BTW isn't "good guys winning" a total cliche we've seen in movies over and over? "Cliche" is basically a stand-in for "storyline I don't personally want".

I get why people can't really connect Kylo to their childhood heroes and see him as Han's murderer rather than his son. But that doesn't change the fact that he is their son.

According to the book Star Wars Year By Year A Visual History Kathleen Kennedy's motto is that creativity leads.

It's interesting that Kylo's lightsaber is described as Yellow-Red and not just red like all darksiders. It's because he isn't full dark which he shows it a lot in the film and book. "Forgive me. I feel it again the pull to the light."

Kylo has compassion for Rey and how he literally treats her different compared to how he treats Poe.

It's interesting how people say Kylo wants revenge when the Force Awakens book Kylo says
" Revenge is a little more than an adolescent concession to personal vanity."

The trooper(Finn) saw only LIGHT reflecting off a mask, and his own fear.

There is so many more hints and pieces of kylo being torn. "I am immuned to the light. I will not be seduced" oh kylo, yes you are and its name is Rey :-)

"I can show you ways of the force". He doesn't say the Darkside to Rey.

I've tried, and I honestly can't see any way that Kylo dying unredeemed gives Han's death more weight than if he was redeemed. This is so opposite from how a good narrative should work that it kind of baffles me. It's like they completely disregard that this is their precious Han Solo's son they're talking about. The one he forgave in his last act before death.

Han also forgives Kylo and hopes Kylo can one day forgive Han. Something bad happened to Kylo. According to Carrie " Rey is very forgiving".
If Rey is forgiving in sure the audience will be too

If there hadn't been a ST, what would fanboy podcasters be talking about anyways? Vader's cape? New toy releases?

For me, Ben is garaunteed to be redeemed. I even think he'll live. My concerns are for how he'll get there. Snoke is going to finish his training; how does that impact what happened with Han on the bridge? What kind of suffering is in store for him, how will he begin to recover himself, what quality of life will Ben have after all this? Will the writers do this character justice? I guess all these high stakes questions is what makes Kylos potential redemption arc so compelling. I actually hope that most people will be rewarded by his story - even all the haters, etc. I want them to be so blown away by this characters journey that every perception that they have of TFA is blown to smitherines and that every part of that movies holds new significance to them. I honestly hope and actually believe that most people will love Ben/Kylo and be rooting for his redemption. Its optimistic yeah, but I trust the writers especially if TFA is anything to go by.

Scavengerscum wrote:For me, Ben is garaunteed to be redeemed. I even think he'll live. My concerns are for how he'll get there. Snoke is going to finish his training; how does that impact what happened with Han on the bridge? What kind of suffering is in store for him, how will he begin to recover himself, what quality of life will Ben have after all this? Will the writers do this character justice? I guess all these high stakes questions is what makes Kylos potential redemption arc so compelling. I actually hope that most people will be rewarded by his story - even all the haters, etc. I want them to be so blown away by this characters journey that every perception that they have of TFA is blown to smitherines and that every part of that movies holds new significance to them. I honestly hope and actually believe that most people will love Ben/Kylo and be rooting for his redemption. Its optimistic yeah, but I trust the writers especially if TFA is anything to go by.

@Scavengerscum

I don't think Snoke wants to really finish his training, otherwise kylo Ren will overpower him.

I think someone mentioned Kylo being the actual BALANCE to the force? And that Snoke wants to suppress him and squash him more than actually allying himself with him? So yeah, its rather interesting - wonder what 'training' entails precisely and what Kylo thinks now that he knows killing Han didn't have the results he thought it was going to have...

I think the GA and others are angry on Han's behalf at what Kylo did unlike Han himself.

If Han was angry at what his son had just done he could have showed it - reacted with anger rather than the tender caress of his son's face.  

Hell he's even got a blaster on his right hip and is standing on a bridge without rails - he could have shot Kylo or pushed him off the bridge as he fell himself - seeing as according to most people Kylo Ren is going to die anyway by the end of the trilogy - they might as well just had Han do it as his last heroic act and saved Rey the bother .

But noooooooooo Han shows love and affection for his son in his dying moment - forgiving him.  

So if Han can forgive his son why can't everyone else?  Oh yeah Kylo Ren killed thier childhood hero! And of course they always compare the fact Darth couldn't kill Luke - no he couldn't but it did take him a while to stop the Emperor from doing it - it was only effectively the death pleas of Luke that swayed his hand.

And don't forget the music in the scene too - it emotes (with strings) sadness and heartbreak even before showing Leia rather than anger and hate - which comes back with brass instruments when Chewie reacts with anger and shoots Kylo and then presses the detonator, knowing full well that the man he no doubt knew as a boy could die as a result of either thing.

Have I made sense?????

Rogue Rey wrote:I think the GA and others are angry on Han's behalf at what Kylo did unlike Han himself.

If Han was angry at what his son had just done he could have showed it - reacted with anger rather than the tender caress of his son's face.  

Hell he's even got a blaster on his right hip and is standing on a bridge without rails - he could have shot Kylo or pushed him off the bridge as he fell himself - seeing as according to most people Kylo Ren is going to die anyway by the end of the trilogy - they might as well just had Han do it as his last heroic act and saved Rey the bother .

But noooooooooo Han shows love and affection for his son in his dying moment - forgiving him.  

So if Han can forgive his son why can't everyone else?  Oh yeah Kylo Ren killed thier childhood hero! And of course they always compare the fact Darth couldn't kill Luke - no he couldn't but it did take him a while to stop the Emperor from doing it - it was only effectively the death pleas of Luke that swayed his hand.

And don't forget the music in the scene too - it emotes (with strings) sadness and heartbreak even before showing Leia rather than anger and hate - which comes back with brass instruments when Chewie reacts with anger and shoots Kylo and then presses the detonator, knowing full well that the man he no doubt knew as a boy could die as a result of either thing.

Have I made sense?????

@Rogue Rey

Yes, that makes sense to me

Han also forgave his son and hoped His son could FORGIVE him in return. Han did something bad or let something bad happen.
" Your son is gone. He was foolish like his father."

"Murderers, traitors and thieves you call friends." Whose the murderer?

Kylo is the last Skywalker so I'm sure he will get redemption and live.
"Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku(her family) are never coming back. But there is someone who still could with your help (ben solo)-- Maz to Rey

Reys had a hard life and was always alone just like Kylo so they wouldn't have Ben be the one who could come back, be the belonging she seeks and be redeemed and then die.
Ben will become Reys family They'll have the next generation of skywalkers.


Rey wants to see the galaxy so I believe at the end of the trilogy that is what will happen. Ben and Rey going off together to explore the galaxy.

He'll get a redemption from one simple point. Han's death has to mean something. If Kylo get more evil, what's the point? Han died for nothing, it has to accomplish something and this will be Kylo's redemption. I think he'll live as it won't be like Vader's redemption. It will happen I guess earlier in Episode IX and not like with Vader at the end. People who are against either doesn't understand his character, hates him for killing Han or simply ignore the fact SW is in some way about redemption.

I agree. Harrison ford said Something like Hans death meant something big.... I took it in a good way like almost his death will save the galaxy. I forget what he said. Someone on this forum knows what I'm talking about Lolol

Why have kylo so conflicted, have him torn and pulled to the light constantly if it was all for nothing.

Leia told Han to bring Kylo home and in the end Hans death will do just that. Maybe Hans force ghost will talk to kylo?