Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

@CienaRee
It's funny because after Finn talks about "doing the right thing" and sparing the life of the villagers - he attacks his comrades almost...gleefully. I know this is Star Wars so I only have a slight problem with that but its interesting that the act is seen as righteous because the stormies are the bad guys. I was talking to a friend about Kylos eventual redemption, how Hans sacrifice and forgiveness will be the catalyst of him choosing the right side irrespective if its the light side and all anyone has said to me in response is: "Nah he is the bad guy. He KILLED his dad. Thats evil." And I just wanted to pace palm.
@snufkin
Yes! I've been trying to explain to my brothers about the FO. That it is a faction of a government, just like the resistance is another faction. In Bloodline it talks about the Centrists secretly funding the FO and in TFA we have the Republic secretly funding the 'loathesome resistance'. It is more of a civil war between two opposing view points. However, blowing up Hosnian Prime would make the FO the ultimate authority in the galaxy now?

Scavengerscum wrote:
@snufkin

Yes! I've been trying to explain to my brothers about the FO. That it is a faction of a government, just like the resistance is another faction. In Bloodline it talks about the Centrists secretly funding the FO and in TFA we have the Republic secretly funding the 'loathesome resistance'. It is more of a civil war between two opposing view points. However, blowing up Hosnian Prime would make the FO the ultimate authority in the galaxy now?

@Scavengerscum

I don't know who started the "Attack on the Death Star was equally as bad as Alderaan" line, but you see it used a lot by political conservatives. Which always sounds to me like a false equivalency or Devil's Advocate type of argument. And not even because it would drive George Lucas nuts because his politics are very liberal/progressive. But because there are differences between attacking a military target versus taking out civilians (which is what the allies did to Dresden, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and even the internment of Japanese American citizens as a response to Pearl Harbor). The attack on Hosnian Prime is pretty much an attack on both a strategic and civilian population. But it is also a first strike in the civil war that's been waged covertly up until that point. So I'd expect that VIII is very much going to be ugly because it's a civil war. Of course the ridiculous part about Hux's argument is that the FO itself is a shadow organization for the Centrists and whatever's left of the Imperial Old Guard. But they think that they're "right," so the ends justifies the means. And it sounds like there were be something equivalent shown for the Resistance as well.

snufkin wrote:

Scavengerscum wrote:
@snufkin

Yes! I've been trying to explain to my brothers about the FO. That it is a faction of a government, just like the resistance is another faction. In Bloodline it talks about the Centrists secretly funding the FO and in TFA we have the Republic secretly funding the 'loathesome resistance'. It is more of a civil war between two opposing view points. However, blowing up Hosnian Prime would make the FO the ultimate authority in the galaxy now?

@Scavengerscum

I don't know who started the "Attack on the Death Star was equally as bad as Alderaan" line, but you see it used a lot by political conservatives. Which always sounds to me like a false equivalency or Devil's Advocate type of argument. And not even because it would drive George Lucas nuts because his politics are very liberal/progressive. But because there are differences between attacking a military target versus taking out civilians (which is what the allies did to Dresden, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and even the internment of Japanese American citizens as a response to Pearl Harbor). The attack on Hosnian Prime is pretty much an attack on both a strategic and civilian population. But it is also a first strike in the civil war that's been waged covertly up until that point. So I'd expect that VIII is very much going to be ugly because it's a civil war. Of course the ridiculous part about Hux's argument is that the FO itself is a shadow organization for the Centrists and whatever's left of the Imperial Old Guard. But they think that they're "right," so the ends justifies the means. And it sounds like there were be something equivalent shown for the Resistance as well.

@snufkin
Adam mentioned the Empire destroying Alderaan and the Rebellion destroying the Death Star(and he mentioned people with families being killed there eventhough they're suppose to be ''evil'') as paralells when he was talking about how the FO and the Resistance are groups who're fighting for what they believe is right and he thought it was inetersting to play someone who believes is absolutely right(which is a behavior Anakin and Leia bought desplayed).
I think it's kind of interesting that while the Empire wa strying to prove a point about how powerul she is by destroying Alderaan for the FO destroying the Hosnian Prime was more about destroying the New Republic.

@CienaRee - yeah the "People on the Death Star were casualties too" is common fan argument. Think maybe it got started by Kevin Smith in one of his films? But it's kind of a classic false equivalency, 'cause attacking a civilian target unprovoked versus taking out an aggressive military target (even if it includes lowly radar technicians on board) is a different thing. But the ST does sound like it'll be more of an ugly civil war type situation, especially because Leia's started the Resistance because she's as much of a zealot as her biological father was and that's something her son inherited from the both of them.

I'm not really about that 'dark side positivity' I see a lot on tumblr, but I also can't stand the Jedi in the PT. And am pretty sure that's by design? Adam's right, the Resistance are terrorists just as much as the FO, even though the FO are visually coded as fascist whereas the Resistance are plucky 'freedom fighters'.

Redemption as I understand it - if the ST is ultimately about bringing balance to the force - will be Rey and Kylo together managing to acknowledge and harness the dark and light within both of them. I think we were supposed to notice that Rey was dangerously close to the dark side when she struck him down, she's not a perfect beam of light and Kylo isn't completely lost to the dark.

VIII sounds like it could also show the flaws at work in the Resistance too, with the infighting between Dern's character, Poe and Leia. Anything that brings in that 'ambiguity and nuance' that Adam talked about sounds good to me!

snufkin wrote:@CienaRee  - yeah the "People on the Death Star were casualties too" is common fan argument. Think maybe it got started by Kevin Smith in one of his films? But it's kind of a classic false equivalency, 'cause attacking a civilian target unprovoked versus taking out an aggressive military target (even if it includes lowly radar technicians on board) is a different thing. But the ST does sound like it'll be more of an ugly civil war type situation, especially because Leia's started the Resistance because she's as much of a zealot as her biological father was and that's something her son inherited from the both of them.

@snufkin
Yeah,I think Adam's mentioned it before in another interview that he and JJ talked about how innocent people with families died on the Death Star but the OT played it in much more back and white terms where the Empire were detsroying plantes and the Rebels were ''justified'' in destroying the Death Star thus it was played as a triumphant moment.However the recent additional materials have tried to make that conflict more grey and I think this will continue in the ST as well.I think the stance they're taking here is that in a war noone wins you just have to find a way to stop it(I think in Life Debt General Ackbar says something similair) because at the end of the day even if you're doing it for the right reasons you still end up killing people.
And Leia deffinatly makes a much better general/soldier than she does a senator Bloodline mentions a couple of times how she misses the Rebellion days.She just wasn't the diplomat her mother was.
Btw,I'm reading a book called ''Killing from the Inside''Out'' which talks about how war affects the soldiers and how justifiable their methods are  and  I deffinatly reccomend it.

Makes me wonder how Adam Drivers personal views on such matters will come into play. I know that actors aren't writers, they're just given a part to play but a big part of his lifes work is to do with war and trauma and how that effects people and how people can find healing. For me, it is one of the most reassuring evidence that Kylo Ren will be redeemed because I can't imagine Adam playing such a huge role in such a huge franchise if it doesn't correspond in some way with his lifes work.
I am so excited about the direction they seem to be taking with the ST and if even touches on SOME of the things you guys have been saying I'll be very pleased.

JJ's friends with Kevin Smith (whose cameo is as the stormtrooper who interrupts Kylo when he's breathing down Rey's neck on Takodana) and they're both massive fanboys, so of course that's why that argument has made its way into the press interviews. But that scenario really works more with a civil war, which is what the conflicts in the PT and ST are really about, a society that literally is being torn apart in two by differing impulses/ideologies/beliefs. Which is where the nuance and complexity that keeps hinted at is headed.

It'll be interesting to see how much they can cover ground about what the impact of being in combat and whether you end up agreeing with/having doubts about the cause you're serving. I've known some U.S. military who ultimately felt that their loyalty was to their fellow service people and the cohort in their unit. Because they felt conflicted about the cause they ended up serving. Others not so much, far more straight forward about country and patriotism. And even when it is 100% clear cut that you're on the "right" side (or at least the side which wins & writes history), there are the aftereffects like PTSD. Which we all have stories in our families about relatives/loved ones who've been in combat and how it impacted them. Sometimes to the detriment of the family. Bloodline at least tries to address that with Leia, both with her being more at ease with being a soldier/fighter than political negotiator and also how that plays into her trying to avoid the entire topic of Vader being her biological father.

It's interesting but I saw 'Fantastic Beasts' recently and at the end I really loathed the Wizard's Council.

Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans has been showing their 'hero characters' ( also mostly child soldiers, making it creepier ) become more and more desensitized to war as it goes on. An enemy leader is killed with no trial and the civilian his group was trying to kill even laments that they've gone too far. It's become more blood lust and killing than fighting for something.

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's interesting but I saw 'Fantastic Beasts' recently and at the end I really loathed the Wizard's Council.

@motherofpearl1

Omg,so did I!I was like "You killed an innocent man who had suffered years of neglect and abuse and as a result suppressed his magic and you didn't even bother to let Newt and Tina help him.And you call yourself good guys and the protectors of the magic world?!"And to think that they would have most likely killed that little girl if she hadn't been a red haring. Poor Credence I ended up feeling the most sorry for him since he was used and abused by the real villian yet instead of killing HIM they just ended up locking him up.I was actually losses pff until I found out that there will be as equal and Credence's going to come back.
On another note I've seen few people commenting on it but Ezra Miller really looks like he could play a Reylo child or even young Ben Solo.

Hell yes - when I first saw Ezra I thought: 'he looks like Adam's younger brother!'

And I had exactly the same thoughts regarding Credence and his abuser, and the punishment meted out. Credence reminded me very much of Kylo.

CienaRee wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's interesting but I saw 'Fantastic Beasts' recently and at the end I really loathed the Wizard's Council.

@motherofpearl1

Omg,so did I!I was like "You killed an innocent man who had suffered years of neglect and abuse and as a result suppressed his magic and you didn't even bother to let Newt and Tina help him.And you call yourself good guys and the protectors of the magic world?!"And to think that they would have most likely killed that little girl if she hadn't been a red haring. Poor Credence I ended up feeling the most sorry for him since he was used and abused by the real villian yet instead of killing HIM they just ended up locking him up.I was actually losses pff until I found out that there will be as equal and Credence's going to come back.
On another note I've seen few people commenting on it but Ezra Miller really looks like he could play a Reylo child or even young Ben Solo.

@CienaRee

OMG they better bring back Credence! ( I suspected this because at the end some of the black bits were coming back together, but I am glad to hear it confirmed. Also, I agree about the Wizarding governments. Both the MCUSA and the Ministry of Magic came across as fascist as hell).

I also agree about the similarities between Kylo and Credence to such an extent that I wonder if Episode VIII might even explore something where a young Ben suppressed the dark side himself due to Luke or Jedi dictates and where that suppression ended up pathologizing benign dark side tendencies into something much, much worse ... which would fit very well with the Robert Bly and Jungian elements RJ referred to.

On the whole AD discussion about how each side uses absolutist thinking, I find that crazy intriguing that he has mentioned this pov again *after* Episode VIII has been made. I mean it's one thing for him to have his own personal read after TFA, it's another for him to reiterate this with two movies under his belt. Couple this with RJ saying he couldn't be nostalgic about the OT3, and I think that these complicated moral questions are going somewhere.

I mean he definitely has a point with "terrorist" aspect. Leia runs a private army at best and she is not subject to any legislature. It looks like what she says goes ... which is very Vaderish. Further, IMO, she took this path really too early in Bloodline, which tells me that she is less about constitutions, rule and stability of law and safeguarding processes, and more about what she thinks is right.

As for the FO, I don’t think that we have a clear enough idea of what they are. Did they secede from the Republic and create their own government? Or are they more like IS? Whatever they are, they are full of totalitarian signaling and hence bad. But I wonder if Leia's response to them (bypassing the Republic except for covert funding) actually made them worse? Perhaps a more transparent protest would have worked ... but that would have meant for a longer slog ... and Leia is not like Padme. She is impatient and is okay with going via extra judicial means ... It's no wonder her son is similar.

That also makes me think of how Han and Leia are okay with Kylo coming home. Maybe they are okay because they actually think of this as a factional war where people can change sides.

It's all very thought-provoking.

It is, and frankly for me it's the best thing about the ST.
And I'm astonished to say this as a long time, huge OT fan, but if they go in this direction it'll make the ST more memorable than the ot.

It's not like somebody can divulge whatever path their character takes up until after the movie has been release. So as of right now, the line still stands that he's a villain because he was a villain in VII. Or terrorist/Lost Boy in KK's words. Until VIII has cleared the books, he can't really go around talking about what kind of person that character has turned out to be by the 2/3rds mark in the trilogy. But in terms of being a terrorist and moral absolutionist, along with the Force Powers and fabulous hair, he got that from his mother. Speaking of Bloodline, Claudia Grey had input from Rian Johnson to keep that consistent as the backstory for VIII and what happened to Ben, so there is some truth to thinking that we're meant to see that detail about how effed up the politics were for the New Republic and how she started the Resistance in part thinking that she was doing the right thing. You gotta wonder if maybe Poe's part of the story will be about him wading out into morally darker areas by struggling for control over the Resistance with Laura Dern's character. Like an Alexander Haig situation?

ETA - I'm not a Harry Potterer, but I do watch Dr. Who and the "who is good?" and "hero contemplates whether they're a good person or simply in service of their own beliefs" theme is a constant running one in the new series, starting with the 10th Doctor and a big theme for the current 12th version. So that could easily be part of the "who are you?" question that Rey has to wrestle with now that she's let go of the belief that she's simply waiting on Jakku for her family to return for her. Especially being stuck on Jakku with a family who are very much bound up in that belief system and caused havoc/damage as a result.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

CienaRee wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's interesting but I saw 'Fantastic Beasts' recently and at the end I really loathed the Wizard's Council.

@motherofpearl1

Omg,so did I!I was like "You killed an innocent man who had suffered years of neglect and abuse and as a result suppressed his magic and you didn't even bother to let Newt and Tina help him.And you call yourself good guys and the protectors of the magic world?!"And to think that they would have most likely killed that little girl if she hadn't been a red haring. Poor Credence I ended up feeling the most sorry for him since he was used and abused by the real villian yet instead of killing HIM they just ended up locking him up.I was actually losses pff until I found out that there will be as equal and Credence's going to come back.
On another note I've seen few people commenting on it but Ezra Miller really looks like he could play a Reylo child or even young Ben Solo.

@CienaRee

OMG they better bring back Credence! ( I suspected this because at the end some of the black bits were coming back together, but I am glad to hear it confirmed. Also, I agree about the Wizarding governments. Both the MCUSA and the Ministry of Magic came across as fascist as hell).

I also agree about the similarities between Kylo and Credence to such an extent that I wonder if Episode VIII might even explore something where a young Ben suppressed the dark side himself due to Luke or Jedi dictates and where that suppression ended up pathologizing benign dark side tendencies into something much, much worse ... which would fit very well with the Robert Bly and Jungian elements RJ referred to.

On the whole AD discussion about how each side uses absolutist thinking, I find that crazy intriguing that he has mentioned this pov again *after* Episode VIII has been made. I mean it's one thing for him to have his own personal read after TFA, it's another for him to reiterate this with two movies under his belt. Couple this with RJ saying he couldn't be nostalgic about the OT3, and I think that these complicated moral questions are going somewhere.

I mean he definitely has a point with "terrorist" aspect. Leia runs a private army at best and she is not subject to any legislature. It looks like what she says goes ... which is very Vaderish. Further, IMO, she took this path really too early in Bloodline, which tells me that she is less about constitutions, rule and stability of law and safeguarding processes, and more about what she thinks is right.

As for the FO, I don’t think that we have a clear enough idea of what they are. Did they secede from the Republic and create their own government? Or are they more like IS? Whatever they are, they are full of totalitarian signaling and hence bad. But I wonder if Leia's response to them (bypassing the Republic except for covert funding) actually made them worse? Perhaps a more transparent protest would have worked ... but that would have meant for a longer slog ... and Leia is not like Padme. She is impatient and is okay with going via extra judicial means ... It's no wonder her son is similar.

That also makes me think of how Han and Leia are okay with Kylo coming home. Maybe they are okay because they actually think of this as a factional war where people can change sides.

It's all very thought-provoking.

@SoloSideCousin

I find it interesting that the resistance has been stealing technology from the FO even before the SKB attack....looks like all parties are in the wrong in one way or another....the new republic had 30 years where they demilitarized, ignored corruption in the Outer Rim and only cared for planets with resources, neglecting others....the FO conquered the Unknown Regions, turned planets into military bases and weapons manufacturing yards, worked people to death in mines and kidnapped infants for brainwashing...and finally the resistance, an extra-judicial and militant group that was majorly into espionage and stole from the FO....

panki wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

CienaRee wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's interesting but I saw 'Fantastic Beasts' recently and at the end I really loathed the Wizard's Council.

@motherofpearl1

Omg,so did I!I was like "You killed an innocent man who had suffered years of neglect and abuse and as a result suppressed his magic and you didn't even bother to let Newt and Tina help him.And you call yourself good guys and the protectors of the magic world?!"And to think that they would have most likely killed that little girl if she hadn't been a red haring. Poor Credence I ended up feeling the most sorry for him since he was used and abused by the real villian yet instead of killing HIM they just ended up locking him up.I was actually losses pff until I found out that there will be as equal and Credence's going to come back.
On another note I've seen few people commenting on it but Ezra Miller really looks like he could play a Reylo child or even young Ben Solo.

@CienaRee

OMG they better bring back Credence! ( I suspected this because at the end some of the black bits were coming back together, but I am glad to hear it confirmed. Also, I agree about the Wizarding governments. Both the MCUSA and the Ministry of Magic came across as fascist as hell).

I also agree about the similarities between Kylo and Credence to such an extent that I wonder if Episode VIII might even explore something where a young Ben suppressed the dark side himself due to Luke or Jedi dictates and where that suppression ended up pathologizing benign dark side tendencies into something much, much worse ... which would fit very well with the Robert Bly and Jungian elements RJ referred to.

On the whole AD discussion about how each side uses absolutist thinking, I find that crazy intriguing that he has mentioned this pov again *after* Episode VIII has been made. I mean it's one thing for him to have his own personal read after TFA, it's another for him to reiterate this with two movies under his belt. Couple this with RJ saying he couldn't be nostalgic about the OT3, and I think that these complicated moral questions are going somewhere.

I mean he definitely has a point with "terrorist" aspect. Leia runs a private army at best and she is not subject to any legislature. It looks like what she says goes ... which is very Vaderish. Further, IMO, she took this path really too early in Bloodline, which tells me that she is less about constitutions, rule and stability of law and safeguarding processes, and more about what she thinks is right.

As for the FO, I don’t think that we have a clear enough idea of what they are. Did they secede from the Republic and create their own government? Or are they more like IS? Whatever they are, they are full of totalitarian signaling and hence bad. But I wonder if Leia's response to them (bypassing the Republic except for covert funding) actually made them worse? Perhaps a more transparent protest would have worked ... but that would have meant for a longer slog ... and Leia is not like Padme. She is impatient and is okay with going via extra judicial means ... It's no wonder her son is similar.

That also makes me think of how Han and Leia are okay with Kylo coming home. Maybe they are okay because they actually think of this as a factional war where people can change sides.

It's all very thought-provoking.

@SoloSideCousin

I find it interesting that the resistance has been stealing technology from the FO even before the SKB attack....looks like all parties are in the wrong in one way or another....the new republic had 30 years where they demilitarized, ignored corruption in the Outer Rim and only cared for planets with resources, neglecting others....the FO conquered the Unknown Regions, turned planets into military bases and weapons manufacturing yards, worked people to death in mines and kidnapped infants for brainwashing...and finally the resistance, an extra-judicial and militant group that was majorly into espionage and stole from the FO....

@panki

I didn't know that the Resistance were stealing FO technology. That's interesting because some of that technology might have come whatever "source of the dark side" in the Unknown Regions. The Resistance doesn't seem to have kidnapped infants and worked people to death ... but that stealing technology does look a little Werner von Braunish. Real arguments can be made for that kind of co-opting, but it's definitely not cute and kind of is the definition of realpolitik and "the enemy of my enemy".

Also, more importantly, what was Leia planning on doing with that technology? If it is FO technology it has to be pretty globally destructive ... and is this just a matter of her side losing the race? I mean how judicially would she have used that technology? Or would she have turned the Unknown Regions into sand because of her hate od anything that smells imperial?

Assuming she would behave better than Snoke, what would she do with defeated FO territories? I get the feeling that there would be no Marshall Plan as there seemed to be nothing if the sort following the Galactic War. So it looks like the New Republic not only dropped the ball with ignoring corruption and letting the Outer Rim wallow in post-war terribleness, there also seems to have been no effective effort to reintegrate and reconcile with Imperial strongholds ... because you know those planets had to exist. I mean even 30 years later Leia had an "us versus them" attitude and vice versa. Compare that to the relationship between former Allied nations with Japan in 1975. Certainly not perfect and there were definitely different issues with the Cold War, but my point is that no one seemed to step up to the Mandela role here or even the much rougher MacArthur role. It's like Leia, and maybe others, might have been pretty incapable of leaving that war mindset and getting on with it for the sake of the future. I mean if the New Republic had been so wonderful with integration, Snoke and his "hiding in Argentina" ilk might have had a harder time gaining a foothold with certain populations.

With how RO seema to be very WWII-ish, I really wonder if WWII is informing the ST as well.

Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it.  The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.  When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

krissy01 wrote:Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it.  The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.  When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

@krissy01
Thanks for the link.It was really great and insightful interview.I really like what he says about Kylo and wanting family to be part of his life.It's very tragic but also relatable becase you understand why he would ahve this rage inside of him.We already knew that he had abandoment issues but it's good to have it confirmed again after epsiode 8's been shot and Adam knows more about his character.
And Kylo also has this in common with Rey(ha,I wonder why ) which makes me wonder whether he was more hopeful and optimistic in his youth similar to how Rey is right now only to have these hopes destroyed which in turn made him the person he is today.It would be interesting if the trilogy is about Kylo coming to terms and healing while Rey suffers emotionally from something she learns about her family which sets her on a similair path like Kylo and they end up helping each other.It would be a really beautiful thing if something like that ends up happening.

the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it.  The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.

Huh, that's interesting. Certainly can support the theorizing we've done here that something happened to alienate him from his family, be it that they effed up more than just keeping the family history a secret from him (e.g. the theory he was kidnapped/captured and nobody tried to rescue him). And that could easily describe Rey's challenge now that she's been forced to stop pretending that she hasn't been all on her own and lost/forgotten/abandoned by her family.

snufkin wrote:

the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it.  The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.

Huh, that's interesting. Certainly can support the theorizing we've done here that something happened to alienate him from his family, be it that they effed up more than just keeping the family history a secret from him (e.g. the theory he was kidnapped/captured and nobody tried to rescue him). And that could easily describe Rey's challenge now that she's been forced to stop pretending that she hasn't been all on her own and lost/forgotten/abandoned by her family.

@snufkin

I've been thinking a lot about that quote from Adam since it was posted here. I still very much believe that Ben's fall was a result of something much, much worse than Han and Leia simply not being around enough.

Just from how things have been worded (e.g. "I never should have sent him to Luke--that's when I lost you both"), the comments about him sounding like he was a relatively normal kid in Bloodline, etc. I'm starting to think that Ben was sent to Luke very much against his will. If it was done as a result of something inadvertently dark side-y that slipped out from Ben, getting sent to Luke could seem not just like a punishment but also like a total rejection from his parents.

Then, imagine that he's with his weird uncle, being subjected to all of this arcane Jedi training and is completely miserable...he space Skypes with mom, wants to come home, but she tells him that no, he has to stay there. (We all knew that one kid in college who desperately wanted to transfer/come home but whose parents made him/her stick things out for at least the full year.)

Depending on how Snoke had access to him and whatever went down with Luke (and I'm guessing that Luke majorly effed up, too)...those things could have all laid the groundwork for Ben to be indoctrinated whenever the final break happened.

Pretty certain myself something really bad happened to him; I think we're in for a shock with Ep VIII, and so are the Kylo haters!

krissy01 wrote:Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it.  The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.  When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

@krissy01

It's funny that Adam says that; when I watch TFA I always think that his execution of the Jakku villagers was to him executing terrorists. We see Resistance fighters, Ren sees the IRA or even Daesh.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it.  The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.

Huh, that's interesting. Certainly can support the theorizing we've done here that something happened to alienate him from his family, be it that they effed up more than just keeping the family history a secret from him (e.g. the theory he was kidnapped/captured and nobody tried to rescue him). And that could easily describe Rey's challenge now that she's been forced to stop pretending that she hasn't been all on her own and lost/forgotten/abandoned by her family.

@snufkin

I've been thinking a lot about that quote from Adam since it was posted here. I still very much believe that Ben's fall was a result of something much, much worse than Han and Leia simply not being around enough.

Just from how things have been worded (e.g. "I never should have sent him to Luke--that's when I lost you both"), the comments about him sounding like he was a relatively normal kid in Bloodline, etc. I'm starting to think that Ben was sent to Luke very much against his will. If it was done as a result of something inadvertently dark side-y that slipped out from Ben, getting sent to Luke could seem not just like a punishment but also like a total rejection from his parents.

Then, imagine that he's with his weird uncle, being subjected to all of this arcane Jedi training and is completely miserable...he space Skypes with mom, wants to come home, but she tells him that no, he has to stay there. (We all knew that one kid in college who desperately wanted to transfer/come home but whose parents made him/her stick things out for at least the full year.)

Depending on how Snoke had access to him and whatever went down with Luke (and I'm guessing that Luke majorly effed up, too)...those things could have all laid the groundwork for Ben to be indoctrinated whenever the final break happened.

@ISeeAnIsland

Even if it's not a Patty Hearst scenario, getting sent away because he did something DS probably freaked out Leia. Who has her own issues about who specifically is the source of both of their powers. So she sends him away because "too much Vader" being strike one in terms of feeling rejected. And like you said, if it wasn't voluntary and he didn't want to be there, strike two. If Luke is being all eccentric/cut off from society already, turns out to be not as good an uncle as his was, and involved with some weirdo/morally sketchy Jedi stuff, that's strike 3. If Snoke had his eye on this kid all along, he's being teed up to be vulnerable for manipulation.  It could also add into the mix some amount of disillusionment via his family with the political and spiritual systems his family has been at the center of for the NR. At least from Leia says to Han, she realizes how she's responsible for what happened to make him vulnerable to Snoke.

But it has to be something that both explains why he believes that he's right/justified with whatever he does and also the rumor that Rey will defy Luke's orders to kill him. And it has to parallel or echo back what happened to Rey, in being on her own/longing for belonging with her family.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

krissy01 wrote:Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it.  The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.  When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

@krissy01

It's funny that Adam says that; when I watch TFA I always think that his execution of the Jakku villagers was to him executing terrorists. We see Resistance fighters, Ren sees the IRA or even Daesh.

@motherofpearl1

They don't seem to a Geneva Convention there. First viewing, my interpretation of his initial "What Girl?" and pursuit of Rey is that he panics/assumes she escaped from that village*. And then gets curious when he first gets into her mind and realizes that she had nothing to do with them, she's just a concerned bystander.

* other theory is that the FO/Snoke did something similar to her family and whatever community she's actually from. That she has been a fugitive and escapee from the FO/Snoke since she was 5 years old. Just not the one he initially thought that she was.