Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

by SoloSideCousin Sat 03 Dec 2016, 2:15 am

motherofpearl1 wrote:
krissy01 wrote:Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime. When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson
@krissy01

It's funny that Adam says that; when I watch TFA I always think that his execution of the Jakku villagers was to him executing terrorists. We see Resistance fighters, Ren sees the IRA or even Daesh.

@motherofpearl1

I absolutely agree. That village has to be the equivalent of Raqqa for him. Couple that with the whole "yeah, we have hyperdrives but we really can seem like the Roman Republic/Empire in space more frequently than not" vibe you get from all of the SW universe where people are just blown up or shot as a matter of course, the village action makes a lot of sense in that more brutal context. I mean how many villages were burned to the ground and everyone killed over the centuries when no one was engaging in anything questionable, never mind being a weapons stronghold and/or holding a fugitive? I mean the Roman Republic, the supposedly better model, burned Carthage and its people completely out of existence. It's actually a fairly recent phenomenon in the history of war that a village like LST's wouldn't have suffered from dire consequences from an enemy. Like @snufkin said, there's no hint of Geneva Convention around this universe. I think that's why KK said in that French interview that Kylo could do things that would really be bad in our world, but not so bad in the SW world ... because I swear, the more I read these new canon works, the more "old school/no rules" war seems to be the way of things in this universe.

by Saracene Sat 03 Dec 2016, 3:04 am

@SoloSideCousin I think the filmmakers are careful to only use the "old school/no rules" for portrayal of the bad guys. You're probably not going to see The Resistance round up a bunch of captured stormtroopers and execute them while they weep and cower, or torture a stormtrooper with a mind drill while they're strapped in a chair. They introduced a former stormtrooper character with Finn, but backed away from humanising them in general so that the audience can still cheer when good guys shoot them up. As presented in TFA, there's zero ambiguity as to who the good and bad side are.

If the ST does get more complicated down the track, I expect it to be complicated in the way of the PT - the good side might be flawed, corrupt and so on, but the bad side is still 100% bad and evil.

by SoloSideCousin Sat 03 Dec 2016, 3:52 am

krissy01 wrote:Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime. When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

@krissy01

This is a really outstanding interview. Thank you for posting this Very Happy

... also ... when he talks about this family stuff and making it "personal", I really think he is talking about Episode VIII for sure and that makes me so excited! Very Happy

I love the family stuff!!!

by Reylo Lemon Sat 03 Dec 2016, 4:07 am

SoloSideCousin wrote:
krissy01 wrote:Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime. When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson
@krissy01

This is a really outstanding interview. Thank you for posting this ... also ... when he talks about this family stuff and making it "personal", I really think he is talking about Episode VIII for sure and that makes me so excited! I love the family stuff!!!

@SoloSideCousin

There's really a sense of abandonment in his words.

by **Kessel** Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:18 am

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
snufkin wrote:
the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.

Huh, that's interesting. Certainly can support the theorizing we've done here that something happened to alienate him from his family, be it that they effed up more than just keeping the family history a secret from him (e.g. the theory he was kidnapped/captured and nobody tried to rescue him). And that could easily describe Rey's challenge now that she's been forced to stop pretending that she hasn't been all on her own and lost/forgotten/abandoned by her family.
@snufkin

I've been thinking a lot about that quote from Adam since it was posted here. I still very much believe that Ben's fall was a result of something much, much worse than Han and Leia simply not being around enough.

Just from how things have been worded (e.g. "I never should have sent him to Luke--that's when I lost you both"), the comments about him sounding like he was a relatively normal kid in Bloodline, etc. I'm starting to think that Ben was sent to Luke very much against his will. If it was done as a result of something inadvertently dark side-y that slipped out from Ben, getting sent to Luke could seem not just like a punishment but also like a total rejection from his parents.

Then, imagine that he's with his weird uncle, being subjected to all of this arcane Jedi training and is completely miserable...he space Skypes with mom, wants to come home, but she tells him that no, he has to stay there. (We all knew that one kid in college who desperately wanted to transfer/come home but whose parents made him/her stick things out for at least the full year.)

Depending on how Snoke had access to him and whatever went down with Luke (and I'm guessing that Luke majorly effed up, too)...those things could have all laid the groundwork for Ben to be indoctrinated whenever the final break happened.

@ISeeAnIsland

I agree, it looks like Ben was sent to Luke aganist his will. Especially since he seems to believe he was abandoned/betrayed. Whatever happened, I think it's likely that because of unresolved issues with Vader, Leia (and Han) reacted strongly to something about Ben (Force powers, temperment, some specific act?). Since Ben didn't know about Vader, he wouldn't understand why his parents reacted like they did. He would see it as rejection of him, rather than their unresolved fear/issues.

I think one of the themes of the ST (regarding the Skywalkers) is the legacy/continued consequences of Anakin's fall to the dark side. The family is going to have to deal with the consequences of what Vader did, but also their own acceptance, forgiveness and how their issues affected Ben. In the Bloodline novel, it was clear that Leia still resented Vader - which was understandable - but this likely impacted the way she dealt with her son and her reactions to him (or his Force powers). The impact of Vader is something she and Kylo will have to resolve because I dont think they've had an opportunity to discuss it (and who knows what poison Snoke has told him). In Bloodline, Leia made a recording for Ben after Vader was publicly revealed as Luke and Leia's father. I think this recording may be the thing that Claudia was alluding to as something that will be referenced in Episode VIII. It's interesting because Luke completely forgave Vader, unlike Leia. In Bloodline, there's a passage where Leia thinks about how whenever Luke told the story of Vader's redemption,

"a beatific smile lit up his face; his memories of that event gave him a level of comfort and even joy that susrained him. Those were memories Leia couldn't share."

I think Ben's fall likely shook Luke's faith and may have tarnished the comforting memory Luke had of witnessing Vader's redemption.

As it appears that the legacy of Vader's fall (and redemption ) impacted Leia, Luke and Ben so greatly, I just can't see Kylo dying unredeemed, never coming to terms with it. That would send the message that regardless of Vader's redemption, his legacy is tragic and his childrens' efforts were for naught; that the mistakes they may have made because of Vader led to his grandson repeating the same mistakes and being lost forever? That Luke's memory of Vader's redemption remains tarnished by Kylo's fall? Han's death was a win for the dark side? Leia and Kylo never reconcile? How depressing and empty. Why build up all that conflict just to never resolve it properly? I still find it hard to believe some people actually believe that would make a good story for the Skywalkers, regardless of who Rey (who grew up on Jakku, far away from the Skywalkers), happens to be.

by CienaRee Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:55 am

Kessel89 wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:
snufkin wrote:
the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime.

Huh, that's interesting. Certainly can support the theorizing we've done here that something happened to alienate him from his family, be it that they effed up more than just keeping the family history a secret from him (e.g. the theory he was kidnapped/captured and nobody tried to rescue him). And that could easily describe Rey's challenge now that she's been forced to stop pretending that she hasn't been all on her own and lost/forgotten/abandoned by her family.
@snufkin

I've been thinking a lot about that quote from Adam since it was posted here. I still very much believe that Ben's fall was a result of something much, much worse than Han and Leia simply not being around enough.

Just from how things have been worded (e.g. "I never should have sent him to Luke--that's when I lost you both"), the comments about him sounding like he was a relatively normal kid in Bloodline, etc. I'm starting to think that Ben was sent to Luke very much against his will. If it was done as a result of something inadvertently dark side-y that slipped out from Ben, getting sent to Luke could seem not just like a punishment but also like a total rejection from his parents.

Then, imagine that he's with his weird uncle, being subjected to all of this arcane Jedi training and is completely miserable...he space Skypes with mom, wants to come home, but she tells him that no, he has to stay there. (We all knew that one kid in college who desperately wanted to transfer/come home but whose parents made him/her stick things out for at least the full year.)

Depending on how Snoke had access to him and whatever went down with Luke (and I'm guessing that Luke majorly effed up, too)...those things could have all laid the groundwork for Ben to be indoctrinated whenever the final break happened.
@ISeeAnIsland

I agree, it looks like Ben was sent to Luke aganist his will. Especially since he seems to believe he was abandoned/betrayed. Whatever happened, I think it's likely that because of unresolved issues with Vader, Leia (and Han) reacted strongly to something about Ben (Force powers, temperment, some specific act?). Since Ben didn't know about Vader, he wouldn't understand why his parents reacted like they did. He would see it as rejection of him, rather than their unresolved fear/issues.

I think one of the themes of the ST (regarding the Skywalkers) is the legacy/continued consequences of Anakin's fall to the dark side. The family is going to have to deal with the consequences of what Vader did, but also their own acceptance, forgiveness and how their issues affected Ben. In the Bloodline novel, it was clear that Leia still resented Vader - which was understandable - but this likely impacted the way she dealt with her son and her reactions to him (or his Force powers). The impact of Vader is something she and Kylo will have to resolve because I dont think they've had an opportunity to discuss it (and who knows what poison Snoke has told him). In Bloodline, Leia made a recording for Ben after Vader was publicly revealed as Luke and Leia's father. I think this recording may be the thing that Claudia was alluding to as something that will be referenced in Episode VIII. It's interesting because Luke completely forgave Vader, unlike Leia. In Bloodline, there's a passage where Leia thinks about how whenever Luke told the story of Vader's redemption,

"a beatific smile lit up his face; his memories of that event gave him a level of comfort and even joy that susrained him. Those were memories Leia couldn't share."

I think Ben's fall likely shook Luke's faith and may have tarnished the comforting memory Luke had of witnessing Vader's redemption.

As it appears that the legacy of Vader's fall (and redemption ) impacted Leia, Luke and Ben so greatly, I just can't see Kylo dying unredeemed, never coming to terms with it. That would send the message that regardless of Vader's redemption, his legacy is tragic and his childrens' efforts were for naught; that the mistakes they may have made because of Vader led to his grandson repeating the same mistakes and being lost forever? That Luke's memory of Vader's redemption remains tarnished by Kylo's fall? Han's death was a win for the dark side? Leia and Kylo never reconcile? How depressing and empty. Why build up all that conflict just to never resolve it properly? I still find it hard to believe some people actually believe that would make a good story for the Skywalkers, regardless of who Rey (who grew up on Jakku, far away from the Skywalkers), happens to be.

@Kessel89
Exactly.If Ben wanted his family to be part of his life imagine how he would have felt like being send against his will to his Jedi uncle who most likely thought the old Jedi ways(Leia's comment about Luke being a Jedi alludes to that).
I think Luke aways idolized Vader and when he died saving him this pushed Luke further to separate Anakin and Vader while on the other sode Leia couldn't see past the Vader persona which is mos likely why neither of them were truly able to help or understand what Ben was going through.It's kind of sad if you think about it if Leia had forgiven Vader much earlier than maybe she could have had a chance to reach out to her son since she's the one who takes after Vader/Anakin the most in personality while Luke's more like Padme who ignored all the bad things Anakin had done and refused to see how damaged he was untill it was too late and even then she belived there was good in him.I mean both she and Luke turned out to be right but still.

by motherofpearl1 Sat 03 Dec 2016, 6:43 am

What Ben desperately needed was acceptance. Rather than seeing his more passionate character traits as'too much Vader' in him,they instead should have realised he was simply like his mom. Who thanks to a nice normal upbringing by the Organas turned out fine.

Kylo Ren has the classic personality traits of someone who had to grow up too soon - as does Rey. They are both mature yet childlike. In Rey it shows in her innocence, in Kylo in his pain. They need each other.

by SoloSideCousin Sat 03 Dec 2016, 9:34 am

Maria Antonietta wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
krissy01 wrote:Adam's said something like this before - in the blu-ray interviews - but it's phrased a little differently here, so I thought I'd post.

There’s elements of hopefully yourself in all the things you get to do. Even something like Star Wars, I think that character makes sense to me and the family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be a part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and the lot of anger that that creates that lasts a lifetime. When we finished that that felt like we made it personal. ...

He also makes similar 'terrorist' remarks that he made in the Variety interview.

https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson
@krissy01

This is a really outstanding interview. Thank you for posting this ... also ... when he talks about this family stuff and making it "personal", I really think he is talking about Episode VIII for sure and that makes me so excited! I love the family stuff!!!
@SoloSideCousin

There's really a sense of abandonment in his words.

@Maria Antonietta

Absolutely. I think Adam's words seriously suggest a real family detachment or even abandonment situation which bodes well for a redemption arc/sympathetic backstory for Kylo.

OTOH, I was tired when writing the other message and didn't want to get into this too much because it is real life ... but based on everything I have heard from AD in past interviews, but especially this one, I find myself pretty appalled by the levels of emotional abandonment AD seems to have endured from his own family. I know that some approve of that harda** "ground you every minute and cut you off when you're 18" school of parenting, but I think that it's terrible. This is obviously a good and sensitive man, despite bad grades and whatnot. He has done what he has done in spite of what appears to be a pretty unsupportive upbringing IMO.

by snufkin Sun 04 Dec 2016, 12:28 am

One thing with the line of discussion about it being a civil war and more nuanced in showing both sides. Makes you wonder if when the dust finally settles, what's left of the NR and the FO (minus Hux and Snoke, 'cause you know they're getting offed) will merge along with the Force getting balanced. They can put that nice Mitaka fellow in charge of the FO side.

by Scavengerscum Sun 04 Dec 2016, 1:15 am

Yeah I haven't thought too much about that actually. Its all well and good to bring balance to the force but what does that mean exactly for the government/state of the galaxy? I actually had a thought...is it possible that there will be some kind of...order 66 parallel? You know, ring composition and all that. From both the book and the movie we understand that though no one has ever defected before, there has been times of noncomformity in the other stormies who are then sent to reconditioning. So what if, in some kind of reversal of ep III, Finn is the catalyst to a mass exodus of defecting stormies taking down the FO from the inside. Obviously it wouldn't be all of them, but the whole mind control, conformity thing would be interesting to explore as well as Finn being a "Big Deal" and saving his stormy brethren (instead of shooting them down). Just a crack theory lol Razz

Okay so back to the subject.

"Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain, and not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process." - JJ

Do you guys think he is specifically talking about TFA or even onwards? A lot of people have taken this as evidence for a villian who gets eeevviiillleeerr as the trilogy progresses.

by Saracene Sun 04 Dec 2016, 2:02 am

Scavengerscum wrote:Okay so back to the subject.

"Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain, and not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process." - JJ

Do you guys think he is specifically talking about TFA or even onwards? A lot of people have taken this as evidence for a villian who gets eeevviiillleeerr as the trilogy progresses.

@Scavengerscum

I think that Kylo's "villain" evolution is going to be about him becoming more powerful and skilled. TFA ended with him losing to Rey and Snoke proclaiming that it was time for him to complete his training. So yes Kylo is a work in progress, from this point of view.

If you take the view that evolution of the villain is about Kylo becoming eeeeviller, does this mean that evolution of the hero is about... Rey getting "gooder"? More so than she already was in TFA? Goodness, she might as well be whisked away by angels or given a sainthood or something then Wink

by ladyconsular Sun 04 Dec 2016, 2:09 am

Spoiler:

by CienaRee Sun 04 Dec 2016, 3:35 am

ladyconsular wrote:
Spoiler:

@ladyconsular

Spoiler:

by ladyconsular Sun 04 Dec 2016, 9:09 am

CienaRee wrote:
ladyconsular wrote:
Spoiler:
@ladyconsular
Spoiler:

@CienaRee

Spoiler:

by ISeeAnIsland Sun 04 Dec 2016, 1:19 pm

ladyconsular wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
ladyconsular wrote:
Spoiler:
@ladyconsular
Spoiler:
@CienaRee

Spoiler:

@ladyconsular

If the rumors are true that an attack on the Resistance puts Leia in a coma for a good chunk of VIII, I think that we could definitely see that sort of storyline play a part.

If Hux/Snoke were behind such an attack, while Kylo was off on Ahch-To, I think it would be reasonable that the attack could cause a (further) splinter between Kylo and the FO.

by snufkin Sun 04 Dec 2016, 2:10 pm

Speaking of the more nuanced and nobody's 100% a good guy perspective, it sounds like one of the big items from R1 which change things around from the OT perspective is that in the tie-in novel:

Spoiler:

by LondonGal555 Sun 04 Dec 2016, 2:29 pm

Didn't Daisy say in a interview she's idk if she said worried but she's wondering how people will see Rey in the next movie. How she made it seemed like Rey will be flirting with the dark side and not be as pure as in the force awakens

by BastilaBey Sun 04 Dec 2016, 2:56 pm

@londongal555 Here's the comment from Daisy about feeling like the custodian of the role now http://www.gamesradar.com/star-wars-daisy-ridley-describes-herself-custodian-rey/

I have never actually seen a source for 'rey will flirt with the dark side' but I see it referenced all the time on tumblr. It seems like a fandom-created rumor but if someone can prove me wrong, please do!

by LondonGal555 Sun 04 Dec 2016, 3:15 pm

Bastilabey you are the best! Thank you.

by snufkin Sun 04 Dec 2016, 3:27 pm

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
ladyconsular wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
ladyconsular wrote:
Spoiler:
@ladyconsular
Spoiler:
@CienaRee

Spoiler:
@ladyconsular

If the rumors are true that an attack on the Resistance puts Leia in a coma for a good chunk of VIII, I think that we could definitely see that sort of storyline play a part.

If Hux/Snoke were behind such an attack, while Kylo was off on Ahch-To, I think it would be reasonable that the attack could cause a (further) splinter between Kylo and the FO.

@ISeeAnIsland

Not that I didn't pay attention to anything in the PT that didn't involve Ewan McGregor, but "Leia in a coma" (can't wait for the Smiths song) rumors at least sound like they aren't trying to fridge her as much as give room for the newer characters to run, allow Carrie Fisher off time to writer her book & handle her mom's health issues, and also be a "making it right" replay of AotC. Killing your dad didn't go so well for Ben, so it's hard to imagine that he'd be super cool with Hux trying to kill his mom. Also have to wonder how much of what he's been up to started in something related to what happened to Leia in the NR/Vader reveal.

by ladyconsular Sun 04 Dec 2016, 3:44 pm

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
ladyconsular wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
ladyconsular wrote:
Spoiler:
@ladyconsular
Spoiler:
@CienaRee

Spoiler:
@ladyconsular

If the rumors are true that an attack on the Resistance puts Leia in a coma for a good chunk of VIII, I think that we could definitely see that sort of storyline play a part.

If Hux/Snoke were behind such an attack, while Kylo was off on Ahch-To, I think it would be reasonable that the attack could cause a (further) splinter between Kylo and the FO.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yeah I thought of that rumor about Leia when I saw that scene in SWTOR last night. I also heard that despite not being canon the trailer for SWTOR: Knights of the Fallen Empire was watched by J.J I think and it's pretty interesting. You see twin boys and a sister. The boy in white turns dark but because he was wearing white I had a feeling we could redeem him and the dark sister is a hopeless cause that gets darker each chapter. I have seen nothing on Kylo being like the sister at all. He is so much like Prince Arcann (boy in white) based on that. Lots of ying and yang.

We also see the Jedi and Sith and Empire and Republic joining to stop the body-hopping emperor.

by LondonGal555 Sun 04 Dec 2016, 4:20 pm

Rey and Kylo on the cover of my dvd has their weapons alined and are looking in the same direction which to me foreshadows them teaming up against a common foe.

by Rogue Rey Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:08 am

In the latest Jedi Council episode (posted in the Rumours thread) on Collider the panel is asked if they'd sooner see Kylo Ren redeemed or Rey turn to the Dark Side by the end of Ep IX and they all said Rey turn or at least dabble with the Dark Side.

Their reasons against Kylo Ren redemption were:

They've already seen a bad guy be redeemed - Darth Vader
He killed Han Solo and can't come back from it and if he were to be redeemed then it would lessen the impact of Han's death

I don't agree with the idea that it would lessen Han's death if Kylo is redeemed because that is what Han wanted and died for that belief - he believed it was possible even in his dying moment. So Kylo Ren going through the whole trilogy as a generic bad guy just to get killed off at the end of IX is what they want. What a waste of a character and a waste of an actor. Adam Driver is such an emotive actor that you're surely not going to waste his talents and his ability to express every little emotion with simple gestures by having him just play a bad guy to get killed off.

As for the waste of a character they could have kept Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren - the right hand man of Snoke rather than make Kylo Ren actually be Ben Solo the heir of legends and legacies. Why do that if you're just going to have him be a bad guy who's only purpose is to be killed off?

I can understand people's feelings regarding him killing Han Solo - it was the worst thing he could have done. But to have Han and Leia's baby boy being forever lost to the Dark Side and getting killed off in a typical good v bad/hero v villain fight at the end of IX is boring and almost a disservice to both Han and Leia. Han would have died in vain (his last tender gesture and his whole speech would have been pointless) and Leia would have lost everything (apart from Luke - a brother she clearly doesn't see much of). She'd have lost the loves of her life - her husband and her son.

by Reylo Lemon Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:39 am

Fanboys bias won't impact the trilogy. That's why we need more sw connection and scavenger's hoard podcasts and less biased people

by **Kessel** Fri 09 Dec 2016, 10:51 am

Rogue Rey wrote:In the latest Jedi Council episode (posted in the Rumours thread) on Collider the panel is asked if they'd sooner see Kylo Ren redeemed or Rey turn to the Dark Side by the end of Ep IX and they all said Rey turn or at least dabble with the Dark Side.

Their reasons against Kylo Ren redemption were:

They've already seen a bad guy be redeemed - Darth Vader
He killed Han Solo and can't come back from it and if he were to be redeemed then it would lessen the impact of Han's death

I don't agree with the idea that it would lessen Han's death if Kylo is redeemed because that is what Han wanted and died for that belief - he believed it was possible even in his dying moment. So Kylo Ren going through the whole trilogy as a generic bad guy just to get killed off at the end of IX is what they want. What a waste of a character and a waste of an actor. Adam Driver is such an emotive actor that you're surely not going to waste his talents and his ability to express every little emotion with simple gestures by having him just play a bad guy to get killed off.

As for the waste of a character they could have kept Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren - the right hand man of Snoke rather than make Kylo Ren actually be Ben Solo the heir of legends and legacies. Why do that if you're just going to have him be a bad guy who's only purpose is to be killed off?

I can understand people's feelings regarding him killing Han Solo - it was the worst thing he could have done. But to have Han and Leia's baby boy being forever lost to the Dark Side and getting killed off in a typical good v bad/hero v villain fight at the end of IX is boring and almost a disservice to both Han and Leia. Han would have died in vain (his last tender gesture and his whole speech would have been pointless) and Leia would have lost everything (apart from Luke - a brother she clearly doesn't see much of). She'd have lost the loves of her life - her husband and her son.

@Rogue Rey

So, hypothetically they're cool with Rey and Kylo being dark at the same time? Or would they rather see Rey kill Kylo and go dark? That's not likely...

Vader may have been redeemed, but it was so quick, we barely got to explore or really process it before he died.

I also dont see how it can be satisfying for Kylo to turn into a full-on cardboard bad guy or a tragic misled bad guy who continues to be conflicted, but ultimately never makes the right decision. The first scenario is boring and the second is tragic and lacks catharsis because Kylo is Han and Leia's only child. It makes Leia and Han's romance a tragedy and Han's death even more of a tragedy than it already is. Also, Kylo is wrong (he's misguided). What good will it do for him to die like that?

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