ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I could be wrong but it seems as if MSW are getting some of their spoilers from toy manufacturers (who get spoiler information regarding the toys they need to make a year or more in advance) this time around (hence the details about weapons, ships and machinery, and character costumes. In that case, as seen with the Kylo Funko Pop figure with angry red scar that got pulled, we don't know if they've actually seen anything of Adam Driver in make up and costume in TLJ or if their information is based on toy designs (which might have been subject to change). I'm leaning towards the latter because a) security while filming was much tighter this time around, b) the high quality photos we have seen have been of supporting/background cast and sets. All we have of principal cast is blurry long distance shots. C) MSW seem to be hedging their bets (releasing stuff after Celebration) and eeking out the spoilers they do have, which for a site that makes its living off spoilers seems to suggest they don't have much juicy stuff this time around. d) They've already shown what Rey, Finn and Poe will look like in TLJ but there's been nothing official about Kylo. We don't even know if and when we will get a glimpse of him if there's nothing in the trailer. If MSW know something sensational about him besides what they've spilled about his costume, I would expect them to be all over it, given the premium on genuine Kylo spoilers.

Pablo already pretty much confirmed Kylo would have a scar and we know what the wound looked like in TFA. Anyone can make an educated guess based on all that. We won't know for sure until we see him.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That makes a lot of sense. I do think that they had some sort of contact in costuming and/or set design, but the latest batch of spoilers have had a very "tidbit feel". Kylo's personal TIE fighter, his costume, Phasma's spear, etc... That could all be explained by them having seen toy packaging or the toys themselves.

@ISeeAnIsland

I think MSW clearly have various sources. The description of the burning tree Jason saw doesn't seem to be on the toy packaging. It looks to me like a genuine leak from VFX department or something similar suggesting the shot-screencap (?) photo (?) was directly taken after the editing process.

Kyla Ren wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Kyla Ren wrote:

Helix wrote:The fact it's so big ( yeah, you can make an innuendo out of this ) might just boil down to Rule of Cool and scars are considered kewl and intimidating on villains.

@Helix

Yeah, actually, I can totally see Kylo wanting to keep the scar because he thinks it makes him look cool.  And besides, Grandpa had a scar.

@Kyla Ren


Or to punish himself. Maybe he doesn't think he deserves to have an un-scarred face?

@bossbaby

Poor Kylo.    Maybe once he gets redeemed he can get some synthskin.

@Kyla Ren

Or maybe the scar will finally heal at the end of Episode 9?

Maybe it will still be healing in episode 8 so it might be red and very noticeable (both as a reminder of what Rey did to him, a reminder to Rey that she went close to the dark side etc)...but once he returns to the good side, it might heal completely....take the instance of Vader in RO- he spent hour in his bacta bath on Mustafar....while bacta cannot re-grow limbs, it can heal wounds and scars....maybe he'll agree to get it treated once he returns to the light/grey side to indicate his complete transformation?

So, I'm finally getting a chance to listen to this week's NTIP, and Jason emphasized how odd Kylo's helmet looks with his new costume. He did note that the costume looks like Luke's costume from early in ROTJ (with a hint of First Order styling thrown in), and that the helmet just doesn't go with the look, so he speculated that he doesn't think that Kylo wears the helmet much in TLJ.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:So, I'm finally getting a chance to listen to this week's NTIP, and Jason emphasized how odd Kylo's helmet looks with his new costume. He did note that the costume looks like Luke's costume from early in ROTJ (with a hint of First Order styling thrown in), and that the helmet just doesn't go with the look, so he speculated that he doesn't think that Kylo wears the helmet much in TLJ.

@ISeeAnIsland

I have the feeling that MSW's main source for these descriptions is concept art. I'm sure whoever is feeding him the art is letting him know which designs made it into the movie and which ones didn't, but I bet the artwork doesn't accurately reflect whether or not Kylo's helmet "goes" with the rest of his costume.

The way Jason describes it makes it sound like this:



But I highly doubt that is what we're getting.

I need a context for this "foxy" comment. Someone give me a time.

Kylo is not only a "naughty nephew" and a "dangerous dreamboat", but also "foxy" I love it.

Piper Maru wrote:Chill, guys. Kylo looks hot even with the fresh wound. The scar won't take away his prettiness.

@Piper Maru

Thank you xD This comment made me laugh.

Xylo Ren wrote:I need a context for this "foxy" comment. Someone give me a time.

@Xylo Ren

Here's the transcript http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/159192644030/he-has-a-darth-vaders-style-cape-but-its-like

The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

Perhaps there was a draft of TFA where his eye was injured? We know that they were working on the script/story for TLJ before TFA was finished. My guess was that it was just early concept art before TFA was completely solidified.

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

There are Greek tragedies where a hero who commits some grave sins is punished by blindness, though if I remember correctly the story's message is less one of "this is an evil man", but more of a "this is good man who lost his way."  (@panki, @Darth Dingbat, @jakkusun? What story was that?).  I wonder if they started off giving a nod to stories like that, since Kylo really does fit with a lot of those characters, being in the grey area between fate and free will that the Greeks liked to explore.

But then maybe they realized they were being completely insane because Adam Driver's eyes are amazing and a huge factor in his performances, and said, "No! No! He has to have his eyes! Have her scar him instead then ... We can do a good-looking scar right?" :-)

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

There are Greek tragedies where a hero who commits some grave sins is punished by blindness, though if I remember correctly the story's message is less one of "this is an evil man", but more of a "this is good man who lost his way."  (@panki, @Darth Dingbat, @jakkusun? What story was that?).  I wonder if they started off giving a nod to stories like that, since Kylo really does fit with a lot of those characters, being in the grey area between fate and free will that the Greeks liked to explore.

But then maybe they realized they were being completely insane because Adam Driver's eyes are amazing and a huge factor in his performances, and said, "No! No! He has to have his eyes! Have her scar him instead then ... We can do a good-looking scar right?" :-)

@SoloSideCousin

In some versions of Oedipus' story, he blinds himself after realising he'd murdered his father and married his mother and then goes into exile with two of his daughters. Also, the Ancient Greek stories don't portray cases of 'good' and 'bad' per se, it was more a case of 'honourable' vs 'dishonourable' and paying due respect to the gods and to those people whom Ancient Greek custom decreed were to be respected.

But yeah, there's is a strong correlation between Kylo and certain figures of the Ancient Greek stories

I've said elsewhere that he reminds me of Orestes, the son of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra. In the Oresteia, Orestes is goaded by his sister, Elektra, and the god Apollo into murdering his mother after the latter killed Agamemnon. He goes through with the deed, but is then tormented by the Furies who demand blood retribution. His only recourse is to call on Athena for help.

They wouldn't even need to scar his face if they were just going to downplay it/take it away next movie. It's a reminder of his sins, so it should at least be prominent. As much as I love disgusting gore, I don't expect a ton of it in a series selling toys to kids. It'll be there, but it'll probably just be discolored flesh along his face.

bossbaby wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:So, I'm finally getting a chance to listen to this week's NTIP, and Jason emphasized how odd Kylo's helmet looks with his new costume. He did note that the costume looks like Luke's costume from early in ROTJ (with a hint of First Order styling thrown in), and that the helmet just doesn't go with the look, so he speculated that he doesn't think that Kylo wears the helmet much in TLJ.

@ISeeAnIsland

I have the feeling that MSW's main source for these descriptions is concept art. I'm sure whoever is feeding him the art is letting him know which designs made it into the movie and which ones didn't, but I bet the artwork doesn't accurately reflect whether or not Kylo's helmet "goes" with the rest of his costume.

The way Jason describes it makes it sound like this:



But I highly doubt that is what we're getting.

@bossbaby

Yeah...that makes sense. Wasn't it also said somewhere that maybe one of MSW's source(s) for TLJ might be someone(s) in the costume department? It makes sense considering how most of the "spoilers" have revolved around character attire for Luke, Kylo, Rey, etc.

I like what MSW are saying about Kylo's outfit in TLJ though. I like the idea of a more streamlined and fitted outfit, and the fact his helmet looks a little off seems to bode well for the possibility he won't be wearing it much.

I don't like the possibility of tptb previously conceptualizing with the possibility of having one of Kylo's eyes damaged (seems a bit over the top), but it's clearly not something they ultimately went with. We know Kylo is going to be marked/scarred after killing Han and being defeated by Rey so the scar will be prevalent; I think the scar will have the same shape it did after Kylo was cut in TFA (thicker on the cheek), but I'm pretty confident the scar will be the extent of his damage.  

He's still going to be attractive based on hints like the "naughty nephew" and "dangerous dreamboat" comments Mark made and now Jason's "foxy" comment. I do wonder whether the scar will be more pale or reddish/pink (angry looking) in color. I'm thinking it will be a little bit of both?

Armadeus wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

There are Greek tragedies where a hero who commits some grave sins is punished by blindness, though if I remember correctly the story's message is less one of "this is an evil man", but more of a "this is good man who lost his way."  (@panki, @Darth Dingbat, @jakkusun? What story was that?).  I wonder if they started off giving a nod to stories like that, since Kylo really does fit with a lot of those characters, being in the grey area between fate and free will that the Greeks liked to explore.

But then maybe they realized they were being completely insane because Adam Driver's eyes are amazing and a huge factor in his performances, and said, "No! No! He has to have his eyes! Have her scar him instead then ... We can do a good-looking scar right?" :-)

@SoloSideCousin

In some versions of Oedipus' story, he blinds himself after realising he'd murdered his father and married his mother and then goes into exile with two of his daughters. Also, the Ancient Greek stories don't portray cases of 'good' and 'bad' per se, it was more a case of 'honourable' vs 'dishonourable' and paying due respect to the gods and to those people whom Ancient Greek custom decreed were to be respected.

But yeah, there's is a strong correlation between Kylo and certain figures of the Ancient Greek stories

I've said elsewhere that he reminds me of Orestes, the son of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra. In the Oresteia, Orestes is goaded by his sister, Elektra, and the god Apollo into murdering his mother after the latter killed Agamemnon. He goes through with the deed, but is then tormented by the Furies who demand blood retribution. His only recourse is to call on Athena for help.

@Armadeus

Oooohhhh, I like that one a lot.  That story nicely tracks with Kylo, especially if he thinks Han did something wrong ... Athena definitely tracks with Rey.

You should try The Theatre of War by Bryan Doerries.  He's a classicist, theatre director and uses Greek tragedy for sufferers of trauma.  He's on the board of AITAF and Adam Driver narrates the book in the audio version.  My education is obviously lacking in the Greek classics, lol, but the book has taught me a lot of things.  I haven't finished it, but I listen to it while taking long walks.  @jakkusun introduced us to the book a while back on one of the Kylo boards.

Kessel89 wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:So, I'm finally getting a chance to listen to this week's NTIP, and Jason emphasized how odd Kylo's helmet looks with his new costume. He did note that the costume looks like Luke's costume from early in ROTJ (with a hint of First Order styling thrown in), and that the helmet just doesn't go with the look, so he speculated that he doesn't think that Kylo wears the helmet much in TLJ.

@ISeeAnIsland

I have the feeling that MSW's main source for these descriptions is concept art. I'm sure whoever is feeding him the art is letting him know which designs made it into the movie and which ones didn't, but I bet the artwork doesn't accurately reflect whether or not Kylo's helmet "goes" with the rest of his costume.

The way Jason describes it makes it sound like this:



But I highly doubt that is what we're getting.

@bossbaby

Yeah...that makes sense. Wasn't it also said somewhere that maybe one of MSW's source(s) for TLJ might be someone(s) in the costume department? It makes sense considering how most of the "spoilers" have revolved around character attire for Luke, Kylo, Rey, etc.

I like what MSW are saying about Kylo's outfit in TLJ though. I like the idea of a more streamlined and fitted outfit, and the fact his helmet looks a little off seems to bode well for the possibility he won't be wearing it much.

I don't like the possibility of tptb previously conceptualizing with the possibility of having one of Kylo's eyes damaged (seems a bit over the top), but it's clearly not something they ultimately went with. We know Kylo is going to be marked/scarred after killing Han and being defeated by Rey so the scar will be prevalent; I think the scar will have the same shape it did after Kylo was cut in TFA (thicker on the cheek), but I'm pretty confident the scar will be the extent of his damage.  

He's still going to be attractive based on hints like the "naughty nephew" and "dangerous dreamboat" comments Mark made and now Jason's "foxy" comment. I do wonder whether the scar will be more pale or reddish/pink (angry looking) in color. I'm thinking it will be a little bit of both?

@Kessel89

MSW having a contact in the costume department is just speculation, given that so many of their spoilers this time around have been about costumes.

I agree that Jason's "foxy" comment seems in line with Mark joking about his "naughty nephew" the "dangerous dreamboat". TPTB wanting to preserve Adam's looks actually says quite a bit, IMO. Even if we don't get, say, a kiss in TLJ, with Adam's look for TLJ (that chest! that hair! sexy scar!), I think it's pretty clear that he's going to probably provide a pretty big temptation to Rey, even if she tries to deny it/fight it.

panki wrote:

Kyla Ren wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Kyla Ren wrote:

Helix wrote:The fact it's so big ( yeah, you can make an innuendo out of this ) might just boil down to Rule of Cool and scars are considered kewl and intimidating on villains.

@Helix

Yeah, actually, I can totally see Kylo wanting to keep the scar because he thinks it makes him look cool.  And besides, Grandpa had a scar.

@Kyla Ren


Or to punish himself. Maybe he doesn't think he deserves to have an un-scarred face?

@bossbaby

Poor Kylo.    Maybe once he gets redeemed he can get some synthskin.

@Kyla Ren

Or maybe the scar will finally heal at the end of Episode 9?

Maybe it will still be healing in episode 8 so it might be red and very noticeable (both as a reminder of what Rey did to him, a reminder to Rey that she went close to the dark side etc)...but once he returns to the good side, it might heal completely....take the instance of Vader in RO- he spent hour in his bacta bath on Mustafar....while bacta cannot re-grow limbs, it can heal wounds and scars....maybe he'll agree to get it treated once he returns to the light/grey side to indicate his complete transformation?

@panki

I think those are all definite possibilities.  It would be very interesting if the scar faded as he moved from the dark side to the light to the point where it was very faint or completely gone.  Or, even if that didn't happen, as you said he could probably eventually decide to have it treated.  Or maybe he'll decide to keep it as a reminder of his dark side past and the terrible things he has done.  I don't think Kylo will ever completely forgive himself.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I'm a bit alarmed by this as well... especially since it reminds me of the concept art for the jedi killer:



I've also seen some FO characters (yet to appear) and imperials sport cybernetic eyes as well as TFA concept art for Kylo where it looks like he is sporting a cybernetic eye.





I really hope they don't take this route as a scarred up and one eyed Kylo means his toys will not sell well among kids as the hero of the story.... they'll have to market him as Vader ver.2.

@SoloSideCousin .... seems I am a little late to the greek tragedy discussion....I think the closest EU equivalent of someone being punished for their sin is the story of Ulic Quel Droma.... the guy pretends to leave the jedi and join the sith so he can destroy the sith and bring peace....but he gets tortured by the sith and turned to the dark side....then he starts committing all sorts of evil acts....but finally when he kills his own brother, the girl he loves gets really angry and permanently cuts him off form his ability to use the force. I guess that it a blindness of sorts because a force user who loses his ability to use the force sort of loses one of his senses. Sometimes I wonder if Rey will do something like that to Kylo and he might actually be relieved if he saw his ability as a burden.

Kyla Ren wrote:
Or maybe the scar will finally heal at the end of Episode 9?

Maybe it will still be healing in episode 8 so it might be red and very noticeable (both as a reminder of what Rey did to him, a reminder to Rey that she went close to the dark side etc)...but once he returns to the good side, it might heal completely....take the instance of Vader in RO- he spent hour in his bacta bath on Mustafar....while bacta cannot re-grow limbs, it can heal wounds and scars....maybe he'll agree to get it treated once he returns to the light/grey side to indicate his complete transformation?
@panki

I think those are all definite possibilities.  It would be very interesting if the scar faded as he moved from the dark side to the light to the point where it was very faint or completely gone.  Or, even if that didn't happen, as you said he could probably eventually decide to have it treated.  Or maybe he'll decide to keep it as a reminder of his dark side past and the terrible things he has done.  I don't think Kylo will ever completely forgive himself.

@Kyla Ren

I think the scar can always remain in his heart (not necessarily on his face), especially if he felt killing Han was something he had to do for the greater good of the galaxy....if he did it to turn darker and become Vader 2, then I definitely think the scar will remain on his face as a reminder to never venture down that path.

Icymi- a shameless plug...Nonesuch and I were guests on fangirls going rogue last week. They wanted to hear about how we met, why we started the podcast and what some of our ideas are for where the franchise might be going. We don't really touch upon reylo, but I did bring up Erik Maell and my love of Kylo merch.

http://fangirlsgoingrogue.com/2017/03/27/priority-transmission-4-scavengers-hoard/

Claudia Gray is their guest this week, so just about to listen to that. Apparently she has a new (non-SW) book coming out, has anyone read her work beyond Lost Stars and Bloodline?

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Armadeus wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

There are Greek tragedies where a hero who commits some grave sins is punished by blindness, though if I remember correctly the story's message is less one of "this is an evil man", but more of a "this is good man who lost his way."  (@panki, @Darth Dingbat, @jakkusun? What story was that?).  I wonder if they started off giving a nod to stories like that, since Kylo really does fit with a lot of those characters, being in the grey area between fate and free will that the Greeks liked to explore.

But then maybe they realized they were being completely insane because Adam Driver's eyes are amazing and a huge factor in his performances, and said, "No! No! He has to have his eyes! Have her scar him instead then ... We can do a good-looking scar right?" :-)

@SoloSideCousin

In some versions of Oedipus' story, he blinds himself after realising he'd murdered his father and married his mother and then goes into exile with two of his daughters. Also, the Ancient Greek stories don't portray cases of 'good' and 'bad' per se, it was more a case of 'honourable' vs 'dishonourable' and paying due respect to the gods and to those people whom Ancient Greek custom decreed were to be respected.

But yeah, there's is a strong correlation between Kylo and certain figures of the Ancient Greek stories

I've said elsewhere that he reminds me of Orestes, the son of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra. In the Oresteia, Orestes is goaded by his sister, Elektra, and the god Apollo into murdering his mother after the latter killed Agamemnon. He goes through with the deed, but is then tormented by the Furies who demand blood retribution. His only recourse is to call on Athena for help.

@Armadeus

Oooohhhh, I like that one a lot.  That story nicely tracks with Kylo, especially if he thinks Han did something wrong ... Athena definitely tracks with Rey.

You should try The Theatre of War by Bryan Doerries.  He's a classicist, theatre director and uses Greek tragedy for sufferers of trauma.  He's on the board of AITAF and Adam Driver narrates the book in the audio version.  My education is obviously lacking in the Greek classics, lol, but the book has taught me a lot of things.  I haven't finished it, but I listen to it while taking long walks.  @jakkusun introduced us to the book a while back on one of the Kylo boards.

@SoloSideCousin

Will try to get it. It sounds interesting and I love that these ancient stories continue to serve their purpose and find new audiences

Another interesting tidbit about the Oresteia that I think tracks with something people have talked about here before: the idea that the perspective the Jedi used to have of the Force is out of date, that 'Jedi sight' needs to be 'refined'. The final part of the Oresteia is Orestes' trial in Athens. Athena is the judge, the Furies the prosecutors, the elders of Athens the jury.

The trial ends with the votes in favour and the votes against Orestes coming up equal. It is left to Athena to decide the outcome and she elects to spare Orestes because, according to ancient Greek custom, mercy should always take precedence over bloodshed and vengeance.

The idea was that Greek society was moving away from an era of blood feuding. The old ways of vengeance and bloody retribution (personified by the Furies) were incompatible with the blooming of Greek civilisation (represented by Athena). The old ways weren't working and so a new order had to be founded. One where courts of law and justice would decide people's fates.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Armadeus wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

There are Greek tragedies where a hero who commits some grave sins is punished by blindness, though if I remember correctly the story's message is less one of "this is an evil man", but more of a "this is good man who lost his way."  (@panki, @Darth Dingbat, @jakkusun? What story was that?).  I wonder if they started off giving a nod to stories like that, since Kylo really does fit with a lot of those characters, being in the grey area between fate and free will that the Greeks liked to explore.

But then maybe they realized they were being completely insane because Adam Driver's eyes are amazing and a huge factor in his performances, and said, "No! No! He has to have his eyes! Have her scar him instead then ... We can do a good-looking scar right?" :-)

@SoloSideCousin

In some versions of Oedipus' story, he blinds himself after realising he'd murdered his father and married his mother and then goes into exile with two of his daughters. Also, the Ancient Greek stories don't portray cases of 'good' and 'bad' per se, it was more a case of 'honourable' vs 'dishonourable' and paying due respect to the gods and to those people whom Ancient Greek custom decreed were to be respected.

But yeah, there's is a strong correlation between Kylo and certain figures of the Ancient Greek stories

I've said elsewhere that he reminds me of Orestes, the son of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra. In the Oresteia, Orestes is goaded by his sister, Elektra, and the god Apollo into murdering his mother after the latter killed Agamemnon. He goes through with the deed, but is then tormented by the Furies who demand blood retribution. His only recourse is to call on Athena for help.

@Armadeus

Oooohhhh, I like that one a lot.  That story nicely tracks with Kylo, especially if he thinks Han did something wrong ... Athena definitely tracks with Rey.

You should try The Theatre of War by Bryan Doerries.  He's a classicist, theatre director and uses Greek tragedy for sufferers of trauma.  He's on the board of AITAF and Adam Driver narrates the book in the audio version.  My education is obviously lacking in the Greek classics, lol, but the book has taught me a lot of things.  I haven't finished it, but I listen to it while taking long walks.  @jakkusun introduced us to the book a while back on one of the Kylo boards.

@SoloSideCousin

aw thank you for remembering. i don't know much about Greek classics, either. I only listened to the book cause Adam driver narrated it. XD but I did learn a lot. Though I probably need to re-listen because my memory is rusty by now. But yeah, Im sorry I don't have much insight beyond the Oedipus story.

Also, I wonder if they were thinking about samauri themes as well? I know people talk about kanan as reminiscent of stories about blind samauri, and then we also have chirrut, of course. But both of them were honorably blinded or blind from brith, supposedly, so it probably doesn't fit if Kylo were blind as more of a punishment representing his inner conflict. Though episode VIII is supposed to be inspired by samauri movies, so that's why it came to mind. The Greek stuff fits much better tho.

Oh also mr Rochester was blinded as a sort of humbling literary punishment too and we all know the similarities with Kylo and characters like that.

They probably decided that blinding Kylo in one eye was overdoing it I guess. That's what I think at least. It's much simpler with just the scar like Zuko. Tho I wouldn't be against him being blind in one eye as long as they didn't make him look too much like a pirate xD that would be funny. But it definitely sounds like an old discarded concept.

Edit- I like all this stuff about Orestes, @armadeus I wonder if Rey would sorta be the Athena of this story?

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

There are Greek tragedies where a hero who commits some grave sins is punished by blindness, though if I remember correctly the story's message is less one of "this is an evil man", but more of a "this is good man who lost his way."  (@panki, @Darth Dingbat, @jakkusun? What story was that?).  I wonder if they started off giving a nod to stories like that, since Kylo really does fit with a lot of those characters, being in the grey area between fate and free will that the Greeks liked to explore.

But then maybe they realized they were being completely insane because Adam Driver's eyes are amazing and a huge factor in his performances, and said, "No! No! He has to have his eyes! Have her scar him instead then ... We can do a good-looking scar right?" :-)

@SoloSideCousin

It's Oedipus among others. The guy who killed his father

Events after the revelation depend on the source. In Sophocles' plays, Oedipus went in search of Jocasta and found she had killed herself. Using the pin from a brooch he took off Jocasta's gown, Oedipus blinded himself and was then exiled. His daughter Antigone acted as his guide as he wandered through the country, finally dying at Colonus where they had been welcomed by King Theseus of Athens. However, in Euripides' plays on the subject, Jocasta did not kill herself upon learning of Oedipus' birth, and Oedipus was blinded by a servant of Laius.

Armadeus wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Armadeus wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

bossbaby wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:The bit about the concept art showing Kylo with one white eye is puzzling me. We saw that both of his eyes were fine at the end of TFA as he's shown staring after Rey. The eye injury would have to have occurred post-snow fight or maybe it happens during TLJ. MSW are talking about it as a rejected concept for Kylo's TLJ look, though. I don't know, it's odd.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That art might have been drawn before TFA was even completed. Rian did begin working on TLJ's script way back in early 2015, and concept artists usually begin their work as the script is still being formed.

At the time that was drawn, the extent of Kylo's final injury probably hadn't even been decided on.

@bossbaby

That is a possibility. I guess it just alarms me that they were even thinking of giving him that kind of lasting damage. It doesn't sound like MSW have seen Adam Driver in full make up and costume, though, so the final result of the concept art and "things they've heard" remains to be seen.

@Mrs Ben Solo

There are Greek tragedies where a hero who commits some grave sins is punished by blindness, though if I remember correctly the story's message is less one of "this is an evil man", but more of a "this is good man who lost his way."  (@panki, @Darth Dingbat, @jakkusun? What story was that?).  I wonder if they started off giving a nod to stories like that, since Kylo really does fit with a lot of those characters, being in the grey area between fate and free will that the Greeks liked to explore.

But then maybe they realized they were being completely insane because Adam Driver's eyes are amazing and a huge factor in his performances, and said, "No! No! He has to have his eyes! Have her scar him instead then ... We can do a good-looking scar right?" :-)

@SoloSideCousin

In some versions of Oedipus' story, he blinds himself after realising he'd murdered his father and married his mother and then goes into exile with two of his daughters. Also, the Ancient Greek stories don't portray cases of 'good' and 'bad' per se, it was more a case of 'honourable' vs 'dishonourable' and paying due respect to the gods and to those people whom Ancient Greek custom decreed were to be respected.

But yeah, there's is a strong correlation between Kylo and certain figures of the Ancient Greek stories

I've said elsewhere that he reminds me of Orestes, the son of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra. In the Oresteia, Orestes is goaded by his sister, Elektra, and the god Apollo into murdering his mother after the latter killed Agamemnon. He goes through with the deed, but is then tormented by the Furies who demand blood retribution. His only recourse is to call on Athena for help.

@Armadeus

Oooohhhh, I like that one a lot.  That story nicely tracks with Kylo, especially if he thinks Han did something wrong ... Athena definitely tracks with Rey.

You should try The Theatre of War by Bryan Doerries.  He's a classicist, theatre director and uses Greek tragedy for sufferers of trauma.  He's on the board of AITAF and Adam Driver narrates the book in the audio version.  My education is obviously lacking in the Greek classics, lol, but the book has taught me a lot of things.  I haven't finished it, but I listen to it while taking long walks.  @jakkusun introduced us to the book a while back on one of the Kylo boards.

@SoloSideCousin

Will try to get it. It sounds interesting and I love that these ancient stories continue to serve their purpose and find new audiences

Another interesting tidbit about the Oresteia that I think tracks with something people have talked about here before: the idea that the perspective the Jedi used to have of the Force is out of date, that 'Jedi sight' needs to be 'refined'. The final part of the Oresteia is Orestes' trial in Athens. Athena is the judge, the Furies the prosecutors, the elders of Athens the jury.

The trial ends with the votes in favour and the votes against Orestes coming up equal. It is left to Athena to decide the outcome and she elects to spare Orestes because, according to ancient Greek custom, mercy should always take precedence over bloodshed and vengeance.

The idea was that Greek society was moving away from an era of blood feuding. The old ways of vengeance and bloody retribution (personified by the Furies) were incompatible with the blooming of Greek civilisation (represented by Athena). The old ways weren't working and so a new order had to be founded. One where courts of law and justice would decide people's fates.

@Armadeus

Oh wow!!!! This would track amazingly well.  The Jedi/Sith-Light/Dark fight has many of the hallmarks of a vendetta/blood feud/tribal feud.  This would be especially true if (1) if Darth Maul's vision (in that comic of Jedi slaughtering Sith when they weren't warped and just wanted to use their emotions) was actually true, and (2) if Luke and Ben stumble upon that same dark history or something even worse where the Sith/Dark really do have something to get vengeance for.

Also, I really love how this turns incredibly representative, where every faction has a voice.  I've started to think that one of the inherent problems in the galaxy seems to be that they seem to be all about cults of personality where people always look to some kind of elites.  In the Republic, though there was I suppose some democracy, there also seemed to be a pretty significant theocratic element where the Jedi had enormous power, enough that the Senate might defer to them, enough that the Jedi could keep people off of kyber crystal planets when those crystals stored enormous energy that could be used to make people's lives better.  The Jedi also hoarded information in my opinion as well.

When the Jedi fell, the Emperor and Vader became those "top dog" figures.

Then when the Empire fell I suppose Luke and Leia and Han had some moments in the sun.  Further, my read of Bloodline also told me that the whole New Republic was basically built on one woman's, Mon Mothma's, abilities to make deals and keep people happy ... so again, reliance on one or a select group of people ... but in her case that reliance was only partly real because part of the galaxy would eventually yearn for the glory days of the Empire or were already working on the long First Order plan with Snoke as yet another larger-than-life figure.

On the other hand, the march of civilization, though never perfectly linear, moves away from relying on those strong men and women/rock star personality/leaders that people idolize and actually invests more powers in the laws themselves and the process by which those laws are carried out, like a courtroom proceeding.  Court proceedings generally never make anyone 100% happy and that's okay.  Not relying on god-like figure on the mountain means that life is messy and people have to sort stuff out amongst themselves ... as they should because it is their life too and they should take some ownership in it.

Of course, Athena is a goddess, but it sounds like she doesn't really play the goddess role and more of the sober judge role, and though everyone is divided 50/50, she decides in favor of civilization, process and the people having a hand in the ethos of their own nation/world and not just handing it to someone else.

Rey might end up being an even more even-handed Athena, because though she will be blessed like a goddess in the force, she has lived the life of the lowest of the low.  I also think she will be much more of a dark/light character than some people think.  This means that she is in a great position to weigh both sides.