The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Mana wrote:Do you think we'll get the official TLJ movie poster at Celebration next month? Or is it too soon?

@Mana

Anything is possible, especially considering how early the film was originally supposed to come out. I don't think the TFA one came out until October or November-ish... I don't completely remember. They may not wanna blow something like that so soon. Maybe after a few big trailers.

I admit it, I don't want to raise my hopes too high, but I'm hoping for a mask-less Kylo on the TLJ poster.

Irina de France wrote:I admit it, I don't want to raise my hopes too high, but I'm hoping for a mask-less Kylo on the TLJ poster.

@Irina de France

Me too. Could they feature both masked Kylo and unmasked as Kylo and Ben?

Similar to ROTS:



or Marvel (Iron Man, Ant-Man etc):

Wrong thread

My random thoughts are back! And this one is exceptionally silly

Anyway her goes: given how Kylo turned evilllll when the sun went out on the bridge scene with Han am I right or wrong in thinking or seeing that you only see Kylo do really bad things when it's nighttime/dark??

The village massacre was at night.
Killing Han happened when the sun went out.
Hurting Finn and fighting Rey on Starkiller was in the dark.

I mean the only time he was out in the daytime/light was when he was at Takodana and he didn't actually kill anyone - just stomped around until he caught up with Rey and then froze her and looked inside her mind.

Maybe darkness is the trigger for his evilness. (Like in Capt America:Civil War with Bucky - there are trigger words for mind control).

Told you it was random

Rogue Rey wrote:My random thoughts are back!  And this one is exceptionally silly

Anyway her goes: given how Kylo turned evilllll when the sun went out on the bridge scene with Han am I right or wrong in thinking or seeing that you only see Kylo do really bad things when it's nighttime/dark??

The village massacre was at night.  
Killing Han happened when the sun went out.
Hurting Finn and fighting Rey on Starkiller was in the dark.

I mean the only time he was out in the daytime/light was when he was at Takodana and he didn't actually kill anyone - just stomped around until he caught up with Rey and then froze her and looked inside her mind.  

Maybe darkness is the trigger for his evilness. (Like in Capt America:Civil War with Bucky - there are trigger words for mind control).

Told you it was random

@Rogue Rey

It may not mean anything in the narrative, but it's definitely a visual cue.

Whenever Kylo is surrounded by 'light' he's shown as 'not so evil'. In Takodana, as you mentioned, and in the interrogation scene with Rey. The room is completely bright and he's trying to go easy on her. Compare that with his interrogation with Poe, where the room is in almost complete darkness.

Rogue Rey wrote:My random thoughts are back!  And this one is exceptionally silly

Anyway her goes: given how Kylo turned evilllll when the sun went out on the bridge scene with Han am I right or wrong in thinking or seeing that you only see Kylo do really bad things when it's nighttime/dark??

The village massacre was at night.  
Killing Han happened when the sun went out.
Hurting Finn and fighting Rey on Starkiller was in the dark.

I mean the only time he was out in the daytime/light was when he was at Takodana and he didn't actually kill anyone - just stomped around until he caught up with Rey and then froze her and looked inside her mind.  

Maybe darkness is the trigger for his evilness. (Like in Capt America:Civil War with Bucky - there are trigger words for mind control).

Told you it was random

@Rogue Rey

I have had that thought with the sun going out.  But I hadn't considered all the "dark" scenes ... though his behavior is mixed in the dark snowy forest.  But if he does have some programming like the Winter Soldier then maybe killing Han made any would-be programming start to crumble, like in The Bourne Identity where Jason Bourne starts to defy his programming when there is a child in his assassination target's lap.  If you read Empire's End, there is a scene with some seriously programmed kids who become feral and murderous when the lights are turned off ... so it might be just symbolism like @Piper Maru suggested, but there is canon precedent for darkness possibly triggering violent behavior.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:My random thoughts are back!  And this one is exceptionally silly

Anyway her goes: given how Kylo turned evilllll when the sun went out on the bridge scene with Han am I right or wrong in thinking or seeing that you only see Kylo do really bad things when it's nighttime/dark??

The village massacre was at night.  
Killing Han happened when the sun went out.
Hurting Finn and fighting Rey on Starkiller was in the dark.

I mean the only time he was out in the daytime/light was when he was at Takodana and he didn't actually kill anyone - just stomped around until he caught up with Rey and then froze her and looked inside her mind.  

Maybe darkness is the trigger for his evilness. (Like in Capt America:Civil War with Bucky - there are trigger words for mind control).

Told you it was random

@Rogue Rey

I have had that thought with the sun going out.  But I hadn't considered all the "dark" scenes ... though his behavior is mixed in the dark snowy forest.  But if he does have some programming like the Winter Soldier then maybe killing Han made any would-be programming start to crumble, like in The Bourne Identity where Jason Bourne starts to defy his programming when there is a child in his assassination target's lap.  If you read Empire's End, there is a scene with some seriously programmed kids who become feral and murderous when the lights on turned off ... so it might be just symbolism like @Piper Maru suggested, but there is canon precedent for darkness possibly triggering violent behavior.

@SoloSideCousin

If there is some sort of triggering that's tied to the light/dark, I think it's interesting that Rey and Kylo's big fight on Ahch-To reportedly takes place at sunset. I'd always thought that Rian used that setting just because it would be pretty, but perhaps it will have narrative implications?

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:My random thoughts are back!  And this one is exceptionally silly

Anyway her goes: given how Kylo turned evilllll when the sun went out on the bridge scene with Han am I right or wrong in thinking or seeing that you only see Kylo do really bad things when it's nighttime/dark??

The village massacre was at night.  
Killing Han happened when the sun went out.
Hurting Finn and fighting Rey on Starkiller was in the dark.

I mean the only time he was out in the daytime/light was when he was at Takodana and he didn't actually kill anyone - just stomped around until he caught up with Rey and then froze her and looked inside her mind.  

Maybe darkness is the trigger for his evilness. (Like in Capt America:Civil War with Bucky - there are trigger words for mind control).

Told you it was random

@Rogue Rey

I have had that thought with the sun going out.  But I hadn't considered all the "dark" scenes ... though his behavior is mixed in the dark snowy forest.  But if he does have some programming like the Winter Soldier then maybe killing Han made any would-be programming start to crumble, like in The Bourne Identity where Jason Bourne starts to defy his programming when there is a child in his assassination target's lap.  If you read Empire's End, there is a scene with some seriously programmed kids who become feral and murderous when the lights are turned off ... so it might be just symbolism like @Piper Maru suggested, but there is canon precedent for darkness possibly triggering violent behavior.

@SoloSideCousin

When they had the last convention and live streamed it, wasn't there a panel from the art directors in which they discussed how the light and dark, especially for the scene between Han and Ben, was very specifically meant to be symbolic and how it shifts back and forth? Also in the Blue Rey DVD commentary?

OTOH, his fight with Rey was in a dark environment and she had no problem siphoning off his DS rage.

Apologies for double-posting here and in the Empire's End thread, but I thought that a lot of you would be interested in this, including those not reading Empire's End. It's a meta of pretty much all of the potential plot points from the Aftermath series that might have ramifications in the ST. Some of this, we've discussed already, but there are other connections she makes that I haven't seen before:

http://holocroning.tumblr.com/post/157573913188/unknown-regions-snoke-jakku-the-mystery-of-the

Here's the TL;DR version:

Alas, I have come to the end of this beast, and it is time for a compilation of my predictions for Episode VIII:

* Rey’s parents were part of Palpatine’s contingency plan, and traveled to the Unknown Regions or Wild Space never to return
* Snoke is at the very least 1000 years old, and has associations with the ancient Sith
* Maz Kanata knows who Snoke is and where he came from; she serves as his Light Side counterpart
* The First Order, or part of it, will be congregating around Ilum in the next installment**
* Rey will construct her own lightsaber using a Kyber Crystal from this planet**
* Jakku’s core is made of kyber, which emits an essence of the living Force. For some sinister reason, the essence has been stifled.
* The Unknown Regions/Wild Space and their mythology will explore the connections between the cosmic Force and the living Force
* Snoke is a cosmic, humanoid manifestation of the Dark Side—perhaps the inverse of a Whill, and he has been existing in the Unknown Regions for some time
* The First Order has another superweapon hidden in the Unknown Regions/Wild Space akin to the Star Forge
* Rakata Prime will be pictured in the Sequel Trilogy films
* The concept of Force ghosts and the lore behind them will be explored
* Jakku will return, at least in part, to its previous state of water and greenery when the borehole is mended
* Anakin’s birth was a Force-driven reaction to Snoke’s existence
* Brendol Hux’s feral children or the Acolytes of the Beyond will become the Knights of Ren

And that is all I have for you. If you made it this far, I thank you for your interest! Feel free to message me with speculation or questions. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

** The theories about Ilum have already largely been disproven, as Star Wars official social media has strongly hinted that Ilum became Starkiller Base.

(Thanks to @nonesuch and @BastilaBey for pointing this out via Scavenger's Hoard.)

dunno if this has been posted before.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/mar/27/gary-barlow-cameo-star-wars-last-jedi-episode-viii?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Gary Barlow confirms Star Wars: The Last Jedi cameo appearance

Barlow is not the only unlikely figure set to make an appearance in The Last Jedi. In 2016, it was reported that princes William and Harry had filmed a scene as stormtroopers while visiting Pinewood Studios. “The rebel characters are in a lift with Benicio del Toro’s character when a group of stormtroopers enter – two of whom are William and Harry,” a source told the Mail on Sunday. Taboo actor Tom Hardy will also reportedly appear as a stormtrooper, and Gareth Edwards, who directed recent Star Wars spin-off Rogue One, has been given an unspecified cameo role.

i'd love tom hardy in this, just for the novelty of thinking that star wars and tom hardy came together

I just had to make a run to that special American circle of Hell we call Costco and noticed that they're selling the new visual dictionary. I don't really buy books in general (and my sum lifetime SW related item purchases are a original vinyl soundtracks, Topps trading cards, and paperbacks from the OT), but I did flip through it and figured some of ya'll probably will buy it. But it's interesting in how there are sections for Dark and Light, Jedi and Sith, but that there are also designations for non-affiliated users. And Rey is very much listed as non-affiliated Light and Ren is listed as non-affiliated Dark.

There's also a section for the First Order and interesting use of words, headline over Ren and Hux emphasizing the word Hate. Which is a much different connotation than simply calling a group evil. Hateful isn't a great thing to be, but it's a very different thing from being evil and a more transient state for sure.

Anyways, I'm sure some of you will probably buy it and do more justice to the analysis of what's included. I was definitely amused having had to develop taxonomies for websites and databases that there was probably somebody in charge of developing a Star Wars taxonomy.

From The Last Jedi at SW Celebration today:

Rian: "So much of what makes little girls want to be like Rey...those things are Daisy."

AND what also makes grown women, like myself, want to be like Rey

I wasn't sure whether to start a new thread for this or if we already had one for exploring what the whole light, dark, balance thing might mean. But as this is a general discussion thread, I guess here is as good a place as any...

I know people are sick to death of the whole Grey/Gray Jedi debate but it got me thinking about some things. I will try to set them out here as clearly as I can, because it's a confusing topic at times.

In TLJ trailer we have the whole Light, Dark, Balance thing plus It's time for the Jedi to end. Many people, me included in the past have interpreted this to mean that Rey and Kylo will be a new generation of force users, which for want of a better term have been labelled "Grey/Gray Jedi". The more I've thought about it, the less certain I am that this is where things are headed. It isn't just Pablo Hidalgo's deep dislike of the Grey/Gray Jedi thing, although his recent tweets have been very scathing...



Anyway, focusing on what we do actually know from TFA...

1) Lor San Tekka tells Poe at the start of TFA "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the force."

2) Snoke warns Kylo "If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise."

3) The TFA novelization by Alan Dean Foster began with this poem, which is seen by many as a pointer towards Grey/Gray Jedi...

"First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight."
―Journal of the Whills, 7:477

I want to focus on this bit...

The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight.

That doesn't say Grey/Gray Jedi to me, it says new improved Jedi. The difference is only made right by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight Resolving = finding a solution and Refined = Purified, clarified, improved, fine-tuned etc.

Also, when it comes to Yin and Yang, my understanding of its nature is that light and dark work together to complement each other. In the Yin/Yang philosophy, there is no good and evil. It is the way of nature such as a plant with its roots in the dark soil and its shoots growing towards the light.

I'm still musing on all of this because there's a lot to chew on. I just feel we are missing something somewhere in what will actually happen with Rey, Luke and Kylo on Ahch-To. Pablo Hidalgo did say that George Lucas' treatment for Episode 7 was primarily about 'A young woman's journey toward becoming a Jedi' and that that never changed as they went into TFA. How do we reconcile what we know about Rey, Luke and Kylo and the Jedi into something workable going forward? I have to say that many fans would be perfectly happy with the ST ending with Rey becoming a Jedi, so where does that leave us? I know we are all Reylo shippers here or are open to it, thus we view most things through that filter, but maybe we are missing something in the bigger picture here. Anyway, that's enough rambling from me. Maybe someone can help resolve it for me with their refined sight, Jedi or otherwise!

I do think the idea that Kylo and Rey are going to be a new generation of Force users ("grey") is slightly misguided.

I think the "balance" and the "resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight" are deeper than that. Something bad happened between Luke, Ben & Snoke, something that probably changed the Force on a fundamental level. And now the Force needs to find its balance -- Rey's awakening is the beginning of that.

The "balance" is more than yin & yang, IMO. Is about fixing something that went wrong ("this will begin to make things right").

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
That doesn't say Grey/Gray Jedi to me, it says new improved Jedi. The difference is only made right by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight Resolving = finding a solution and Refined = Purified, clarified, improved, fine-tuned etc.

Also, when it comes to Yin and Yang, my understanding of its nature is that light and dark work together to complement each other. In the Yin/Yang philosophy, there is no good and evil. It is the way of nature such as a plant with its roots in the dark soil and its shoots growing towards the light.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I think this is exactly what a lot of people mean when they talk about "Grey Jedi", IMO. It's just a silly term (I've never liked it myself) but when I see people talk about it, I get the impression it's about "new, improved Jedi" with a more yin-yang approach to harmony.

I've never seen anyone advocate for "Grey Jedi" in the sense of that Pablo poem. But perhaps that's more common in different types of forums, I don't know.

I figured whatever conflict and mystery that at's the heart, the religious parallels would have to be something along the lines of the Catholic-Protestant split (who's the Martin Luther of the Force), the Mainline-Evangelical/Charismatic rift for Protestants, or Vatican II for Catholics.

Not related, but I thought this was an interesting exploration (with the usual disclaimer that Tumbler imitates the worst sins of academic writing) of what hold Snoke has over Ben with a discussion about WWII and Cold War psychops. They talk about the "our Germans are better than the Russian's Germans" argument you find in the Right Stuff, where both sides took full advantage of the technology and tactics developed as post war spoils

’m going to explore this statement through a bit of historical context that focuses on the CIA operation MKULTRA—a mind control operation that manipulated subjects into doing acts they would not have done otherwise. I have sourced anything that came from online sources, however, much of this comes from a book I own, “The CIA Doctors: Human Rights Violations by American Psychologists” by Dr. Colin Ross.

During this operation, the CIA used several tactics to brainwash their subjects—one of which required enlisting a magician for the purposes of hypnosis, illusion, deception, and trickery. In this scenario, Kylo Ren is the subject and Snoke is the magician, manipulating Ben through very convoluted and controlled acts of “magic” to trick Ben into believing stories/situations that created fears within him that were irrational or out of context of what happened (i.e. the legacy of his grandfather).

I can’t stress enough how incredible that is. Kylo—for his curiosity in a girl—consistently seems to forget and disregard the commands of a powerful, influential father figure who has implanted falsities and delusions within Kylo’s brain from birth. This is not because Kylo is just simply interested—intellectually, sexually, what have you—in Rey. It is because this is how flimsy the manipulation of Kylo Ren’s mind really is. It takes one girl.

Star Wars Parallels in History: Operation Paperclip and MKULTRA (AKA Why Kylo Ren Needs to Stop Being Called an Emo Whiny b**** Who Doesn’t Deserve a Redemption Arc)

snufkin wrote:I figured whatever conflict and mystery that at's the heart, the religious parallels would have to be something along the lines of the Catholic-Protestant split (who's the Martin Luther of the Force), the Mainline-Evangelical/Charismatic rift for Protestants, or Vatican II for Catholics.

Not related, but I thought this was an interesting exploration (with the usual disclaimer that Tumbler imitates the worst sins of academic writing) of what hold Snoke has over Ben with a discussion about WWII and Cold War psychops. They talk about the "our Germans are better than the Russian's Germans" argument you find in the Right Stuff, where both sides took full advantage of the technology and tactics developed as post war spoils

’m going to explore this statement through a bit of historical context that focuses on the CIA operation MKULTRA—a mind control operation that manipulated subjects into doing acts they would not have done otherwise. I have sourced anything that came from online sources, however, much of this comes from a book I own, “The CIA Doctors: Human Rights Violations by American Psychologists” by Dr. Colin Ross.

During this operation, the CIA used several tactics to brainwash their subjects—one of which required enlisting a magician for the purposes of hypnosis, illusion, deception, and trickery. In this scenario, Kylo Ren is the subject and Snoke is the magician, manipulating Ben through very convoluted and controlled acts of “magic” to trick Ben into believing stories/situations that created fears within him that were irrational or out of context of what happened (i.e. the legacy of his grandfather).

I can’t stress enough how incredible that is. Kylo—for his curiosity in a girl—consistently seems to forget and disregard the commands of a powerful, influential father figure who has implanted falsities and delusions within Kylo’s brain from birth. This is not because Kylo is just simply interested—intellectually, sexually, what have you—in Rey. It is because this is how flimsy the manipulation of Kylo Ren’s mind really is. It takes one girl.

Star Wars Parallels in History: Operation Paperclip and MKULTRA (AKA Why Kylo Ren Needs to Stop Being Called an Emo Whiny b**** Who Doesn’t Deserve a Redemption Arc)

@snufkin

Along the same lines I just watched The Stanford Prison Experiment with Billy Crudup and Ezra Miller ... and holy sith it was insane how quickly that people started to lose their identity in their roles and how quickly people just fell into line with authority. Apparently the movie was pretty accurate to the actual events according to some viewers who had studied the actual case, and if that's true, then it doesn't take much for people in certain circumstances to really get into a "brainwash-ish" kind of mindset. Further, there was no hypnosis of any kind involved in this situation, just a lot of mental degradation and no windows and no sense of time, and they had to call it off by Day 6 because the experiment had long passed immoral because most of the participants' behavior had begun to be radically changed days before. So IOW they could very easily do an indoctrination thing with Ben and have it be realistic. In fact, they'd probably need to make it worse because people won't believe a Stanford type situation in a movie like this.

@SoloSideCousin - I had to watch Quiet Rage for a class on Research Methods/Statistics for the whole use of human subjects issue and remember how the participants flipped pretty fast. It's certainly not out of bounds considering that they allude to Finn having been conditioned as both a child and after his refusal to fire on the villagers on Jakku. And if he's going to be butting heads with Phasma in the next movie, they have to be showing something about Hux's claim that his program conditions those soldiers from birth. The whole irony of Kylo snarking on them committing treason is that he's deluded about how he's no different with his "the Supreme Leader is wise" mantra.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
That doesn't say Grey/Gray Jedi to me, it says new improved Jedi. The difference is only made right by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight Resolving = finding a solution and Refined = Purified, clarified, improved, fine-tuned etc.

Also, when it comes to Yin and Yang, my understanding of its nature is that light and dark work together to complement each other. In the Yin/Yang philosophy, there is no good and evil. It is the way of nature such as a plant with its roots in the dark soil and its shoots growing towards the light.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I think this is exactly what a lot of people mean when they talk about "Grey Jedi", IMO. It's just a silly term (I've never liked it myself) but when I see people talk about it, I get the impression it's about "new, improved Jedi" with a more yin-yang approach to harmony.

I've never seen anyone advocate for "Grey Jedi" in the sense of that Pablo poem. But perhaps that's more common in different types of forums, I don't know.

@Darth Dingbat

I agree. And this is exactly what I had in my mind since the beginning of the deabte.

I don't follow Pablo on Twitter so closely - so I don't know exactly what people ask him.
Somehow Pablo concluded that "Grey Jedi" solely means: "a force user using both sides of the Force simultaneously", but I want to remind of another tweet from Pablo: "The Jedi (from PT) were more an Order, than Jedi" which I think is more telling in the scope of the discussion for the potential evolution of Jedi.

As well, despite Pablo, there're a lot of "things" brought in in the new canon as of lately which definitely give the larger view on the matter of the Force than we were used to it before, hence the confusion among fans.

- Bendu (In Rebels as someone "in the middle")
- The Whills and the characters like Chirrut and Maz
- Most of all: the trailer with : light, darkness, balance

The only thing that prevails in all of it: it's the confusion of the fanbase reagrding the Force stuff (latest NTIP is a proof for it: I would say Jason Ward is also super confused about it).

I just don't get (and perhaps it's not the right place and time to discuss it) why all of the hysteria about the fans trying to explain to themselves obvious hints (or red herrings at the end)mentioned above.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
That doesn't say Grey/Gray Jedi to me, it says new improved Jedi. The difference is only made right by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight Resolving = finding a solution and Refined = Purified, clarified, improved, fine-tuned etc.

Also, when it comes to Yin and Yang, my understanding of its nature is that light and dark work together to complement each other. In the Yin/Yang philosophy, there is no good and evil. It is the way of nature such as a plant with its roots in the dark soil and its shoots growing towards the light.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I think this is exactly what a lot of people mean when they talk about "Grey Jedi", IMO. It's just a silly term (I've never liked it myself) but when I see people talk about it, I get the impression it's about "new, improved Jedi" with a more yin-yang approach to harmony.

I've never seen anyone advocate for "Grey Jedi" in the sense of that Pablo poem. But perhaps that's more common in different types of forums, I don't know.

@Darth Dingbat

I agree. And this is exactly what I had in my mind since the beginning of the deabte.

I don't follow Pablo on Twitter so closely - so I don't know exactly what people  ask him.
Somehow Pablo concluded that "Grey Jedi" solely means:  "a force user using both sides of the Force simultaneously", but I want to remind of another tweet from Pablo: "The Jedi (from PT) were more an Order, than Jedi" which I think is more telling in the scope of the discussion for the potential evolution of Jedi.

As well, despite Pablo, there're a lot of "things" brought in in the new canon as of lately which definitely give the larger view on the matter of the Force than we were used to it before, hence the confusion among fans.

- Bendu (In Rebels as someone "in the middle")
- The Whills and the characters like Chirrut and Maz
- Most of all: the trailer with : light, darkness, balance

The only thing that prevails in all of it: it's the confusion of the fanbase reagrding the Force stuff (latest NTIP is a proof for it: I would say Jason Ward is also super confused about it).

I just don't get (and perhaps it's not the right place and time to discuss it) why all of the hysteria about the fans trying to explain to themselves  obvious hints (or red herrings at the end)mentioned above.

@Darth_Awakened

I agree with everything you say here 100%, and especially with the bolded, because honestly, what is so terrible about people trying to speculate/analyze/"figure things out" with this issue? Especially when everything is still so unknown that we actually don't even have the language of what it looks like they may be trying to achieve, hence the falling back on "Grey Jedi".

Pablo may think he's all great with his "insult of a Grey Jedi Code", but to me it just makes me have less respect for him and his opinion because that is just straight up "nerd bullying" and/or gatekeeping.  IOW, it conveys an attitude of "if you don't interpret this thing just like I do, or you don't know all the 'right' words like I do, then you are an idiot and need to keep quiet." I'd expect that kind of nonsense from a dude in his Mom's basement, not somebody with a big job at LF, but what do I know, lol?  Maybe LF actually *wants* to keep the fanbase small and insular and have the simplistic mindset of the ending of ROTJ rule the day forever more ... though somehow I doubt it. 

The hiring of Adam Driver vs. one the Chrises, and the hiring of Rian Johnson vs. a Michael Bay or his progeny indicate something different.  In fact, if this wasn't SW, all this information would indicate something ambiguous without question.  And had Kasdan gotten his way 34 years ago, we would not have this "built-in" sense that everything must be black and white with SW.  And oh wait, the guy who told Kasdan to forget the complexity 34 years ago sold this whole thing for $4 billion and is no longer around ... and lo and behold, who helped set up this new thing? Kasdan.  And his friend Rian of "the Jedi must end" fame is following through.

I'm sorry to be snarky, but in end SW is nothing but a product that I and everyone else can choose to buy.  It's LF's job to make it attractive me, not my job to pass some nerdtastic litmus test set up by Pablo when he has all the information and I have almost none.  In the end PH and his "this is the way it's always been and this is the way it will stay, like it or leave it" compatriots will either be right and the franchise will stay safe and black-and-white and forever worshipping GL's frequently, IMO, "social skill inept" school of storytelling, and if that's the case, then good luck to Disney with its efforts to keep this thing fresh for a worldwide audience (much of which has no sentimental attachment to the old movies) for the 30 year haul when tentpoles need to innovate or die ... OR ... the canon materials are telling us that something is up, that the force might get turned on its head, that you will not be spoonfed things anymore, that this will be more like Nolan than Michael Bay. 

That change could be yin and yang or making emotion not evil or making the morality of force usage dependent on intention as opposed to what "side" is utilized, but with the way PH has treated this issue, at this point I honestly don't think it's useful to even talk about this kind of stuff with him.  With the way the guy has said he prefers Jabba or the Emperor to Kylo, with the way he has downplayed Adam Driver's and JJ's interpretation of the character and with the way he is being so incredibly obtuse about this Grey Jedi business, I honestly believe that either he is either pretty dense when it comes to nuanced storytelling/analysis/interpretation -OR- this is all some kind of an act to prevent people from getting too far down the analysis path.  Either way the guy is not going to be useful to talk to about these kinds of things, and his snarky, "hit me over the head with a sledgehammer" analysis of obviously ambiguous things just makes the fandom less fun.

SoloSideCousin wrote:I'm sorry to be snarky, but in end SW is nothing but a product that I and everyone else can choose to buy. It's LF's job to make it attractive me, not my job to pass some nerdtastic litmus test

The nerdtastic litmus test really is what 'traditional' (or legacy if you will) fandom has been for 40 years. I liked the movies as a kid but the whole business of fandom itself and what you were or weren't supposed to be interested in. Or God forbid, maybe it's not the cornerstone of your identity and there are other things you like the same way or even more than SW was always a big turn off for me. And it would seem to be at odds with everything Kathleen Kennedy has at least tried to stress about the franchise becoming more open to other fans outside of a very narrow demographic, that there shouldn't be any one 'right' way to be a fan. But otherwise, some of this just comes off as further gatekeeping - which at least from the executive level is something that they're supposed to be moving past.

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:I'm sorry to be snarky, but in end SW is nothing but a product that I and everyone else can choose to buy. It's LF's job to make it attractive me, not my job to pass some nerdtastic litmus test

The nerdtastic litmus test really is what 'traditional' (or legacy if you will) fandom has been for 40 years. I liked the movies as a kid but the whole business of fandom itself and what you were or weren't supposed to be interested in. Or God forbid, maybe it's not the cornerstone of your identity and there are other things you like the same way or even more than SW was always a big turn off for me. And it would seem to be at odds with everything Kathleen Kennedy has at least tried to stress about the franchise becoming more open to other fans outside of a very narrow demographic, that there shouldn't be any one 'right' way to be a fan. But otherwise, some of this just comes off as further gatekeeping - which at least from the executive level is something that they're supposed to be moving past.

@snufkin

Yeah, if I was part of the marketing team for the ST, I don't know if I would be in love with PH's twitter feed much of the time. I often wonder if the reason he hasn't been told to "de-snark" is because they know he represents the traditionalist fan and they want those fans to have "their person" when things start to become more open-ended in the franchise.

After going to SWC and then watching some of the panels (like that 40th anniversary one), I just really get the strong feeling that KK is performing a balancing act at all times. I need to go drive somewhere in a few minutes so I won't be able to complete this thought, but I will leave it at this ... I noticed a total lack of "crossing the streams" at SWC. IOW, there was no interaction between Rian Johnson and Daisy and John with George Lucas. I also felt a sense of "walking on eggshells" around GL at the 40th that I did not get when I was actually in the room for the TLJ panel. Further, KK and RJ had some palpable anxiety IMO, and KK made a point of talking about risk taking. I could be completely off, but I think that there is a tension between old and new, and I think that it's there because I don’t think that they are going to follow everything GL wanted. Just my opinion on the vibes I got.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:I'm sorry to be snarky, but in end SW is nothing but a product that I and everyone else can choose to buy. It's LF's job to make it attractive me, not my job to pass some nerdtastic litmus test

The nerdtastic litmus test really is what 'traditional' (or legacy if you will) fandom has been for 40 years. I liked the movies as a kid but the whole business of fandom itself and what you were or weren't supposed to be interested in. Or God forbid, maybe it's not the cornerstone of your identity and there are other things you like the same way or even more than SW was always a big turn off for me. And it would seem to be at odds with everything Kathleen Kennedy has at least tried to stress about the franchise becoming more open to other fans outside of a very narrow demographic, that there shouldn't be any one 'right' way to be a fan. But otherwise, some of this just comes off as further gatekeeping - which at least from the executive level is something that they're supposed to be moving past.

@snufkin

Yeah, if I was part of the marketing team for the ST, I don't know if I would be in love with PH's twitter feed much of the time. I often wonder if the reason he hasn't been told to "de-snark" is because they know he represents the traditionalist fan and they want those fans to have "their person" when things start to become more open-ended in the franchise.

After going to SWC and then watching some of the panels (like that 40th anniversary one), I just really get the strong feeling that KK is performing a balancing act at all times. I need to go drive somewhere in a few minutes so I won't be able to complete this thought, but I will leave it at this ... I noticed a total lack of "crossing the streams" at SWC. IOW, there was no interaction between Rian Johnson and Daisy and John with George Lucas. I also felt a sense of "walking on eggshells" around GL at the 40th that I did not get when I was actually in the room for the TLJ panel. Further, KK and RJ had some palpable anxiety IMO, and KK made a point of talking about risk taking. I could be completely off, but I think that there is a tension between old and new, and I think that it's there because I don’t think that they are going to follow everything GL wanted. Just my opinion on the vibes I got.

@SoloSideCousin

I got the same impression. It really jumped out at me when Mark (as part of the TLJ panel) made the comment about how the ST really "aren't Luke's movies any more" or something like that...and KK quickly jumped in and pointed out that Mark/Luke would have a hugely important role in TLJ.

They're really walking a tightrope, as far as wanting to keep the old school fanboys happy while they're trying to bring in new fans and expand the Star Wars universe in general.

"@SoloSideCousin"
I agree 100% with everything you've said. Here are my thoughts on the matter. I have never been a fan of PH's overly simplistic interpretations of pretty much everything related to the saga, but I just accept we don't see eye to eye and move on. This is especially true regarding Kylo's characterization where JJ and Adam's comments is all I need. I don't care what he or anyone else besides the director has to say and I don't think we should pay that much attention to such remarks because they're not "Word of God". Some peope like RO, others prefer TFA and IMO that shows what type of fan you are. To me, the latter was the film that brought something new to SW despite numerous claims of rehash, mostly coming from people who fail to notice the real subtance beneath the surface level similarities. No matter what anyone says, we've never had a female-driven storyline or a character like Kylo Ren and we've never had such compelling, intimate dynamic between a young heroine and a young villain who is a villain from the get-go. TFA's strength comes not from technical consistency, but from characterization and the core idea behind it, which is what some fans will never get. I just hope that wasn't due to the fact that JJ's company was involved in production. I have faith that RJ will do something never seen before in this universe, which has been emphasized by both actors and writers involved. I know RJ has reportedly said Luke is his favorite character, but that does in no way guarantee he won't take risks with him. In fact, the way I see it, sometimes you're more likely to take the biggest risks and symbolically "torture" the character you love the most. The truth is, taking a character to a dark place (not necessarily the dark side, it could be a "misguided light" or whatever), makes for an interesting arc, it adds complications for the other characters, namely Rey and Kylo. In spite of what some people might say, an all-mighty, infallible Jedi Master Luke who comes back home willingly to help the Resistance is just boring. Obviously Luke is no longer the protagonist, but he'll have an important ideological role to play and perhaps his fall from grace as a mentor will aid Rey's journey even more, e.g. his skepticism vs. Rey's heroic optimism/faith.

The grey Jedi concept is quite broad and very ambiguous at the moment, there is no right or wrong answer so it's a bit foolish to make fun of it when everyone has his own version of what it means. Frankly, this attitude leaves a bad taste of in my mouth. Just because people have no other word to use for a Force user who is neither a Jedi, nor a Sith, doesn't mean they're stupid or uninformed or that they should be ridiculed. This again IMO shows a certain lack of understanding or willingness to dig a little deeper (which is more intellectually demanding) because the focus is placed on the terminology rather than on what actually matters: the subtance, the idea of a Force user who has come to understand that no side is perfect and aims to use his/her power in a more reasonable way. Someone who acknowledges human emotions instead of trying to repress them, which can lead to more trouble. I have no idea what direction the Force plot is going to take, but I hope we do see something original and complex, which takes into account the Jedi's past mistakes and lack of insight while still acknowledging the corruptive nature of the darkside. Maybe the answer lies somewhere else, not necessarily in between the two. Balance doesn't mean literally merging the two sides, again that's ovesimplification. It can mean they can co-exist and they actually do because no one is pure good or pure evil, we all have both light and dark within us. The main point is, it's not a black and white issue and certainly not something worth mocking.

Now, on the question of Rey's journey, we still don't know where the story will take her so it's natural to have doubts and manage personal expectations. It is possible that she is meant to be the next leader of a new generation of Force users and maybe that's where her belonging lies. However, we've also talked about female perspective and the heroine's journey, how Rey's storyline is inherently feminine in nature, etc. In other words, Rey is not Luke even though she plays a similar role in the narrative. There are certain specifics when it comes to a heroine's journey so we shouldn't expect an exact dublicate of Luke's coming-of-age story. Kylo may or may nor end up on a journey of atonement, he may or may not stay with her at the end, and it's more likely we'll get some kind of bittersweet ending rather than ROTJ-style ending (though you could argue that was bittersweet as well because Luke was only able to spend a few minutes with his redeemed dad). However, no one who has watched TFA and paid attention can deny the uniquely intimate (non-familial) connection Rey and Kylo share. They've entered each others' minds and explored each other's greaters fears and dreams. This is a deep level of intimacy you can't have with just anyone, even if it's a best friend. Rey and Kylo share another unique quality, they are the only two young Force users left (that we know of). Their uniqueness as individuals and the connection they share with each other is something precious, which should not got to waste IMO. They've both suffered greatly, they've both been alone and starved for intimacy for far too long and it is very rare to find someone who understands you so throughly. I have always believed and still believe that they are each other's belonging in an emotional sense and ultimately they will be each other's salvation.