The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Makes me wonder if George doesn't/wouldn't care for the way the ST is going. Frankly I love the fresh new ideas, but plenty old 'old skool' fans hate the new ideas. There's plenty who do and are open to the new stuff, the people who don't are just always the most vocal.

Helix wrote:Makes me wonder if George doesn't/wouldn't care for the way the ST is going. Frankly I love the fresh new ideas, but plenty old 'old skool' fans hate the new ideas. There's plenty who do and are open to the new stuff, the people who don't are just always the most vocal.

@Helix

The truth is they are NEVER going to please everybody - that is an uphill battle no one can win. I'm sure when all is said and done, there are going to be corners that will absolutely hate this trilogy (too nuanced, too many shades of grey, not enough good vs evil), but ask yourselves, is that really a gripping, powerful story you'd expect from a story of epic proportions? If they churn out something the fanboys would want, sure that section will be happy, but in the end you'll have something so forgettable the GA isn't going to be talking about it even six months later. What kills me though is Star Wars has ALWAYS been character driven, and we all know Anakin was never all light or all dark, much like a certain younger darksider we all know and love.

What's one single SW moment that 40 years later people still talk about? It's the "I Am Your Father" moment. It's iconic. It lets you know that what you thought was a bad*** 100% evil villain was anything but that. So I wonder why that faction think is our interpretation of TFA any different from that...

The truth is, the story team is using the same formula of the OT with a brand new unique story between villain and heroine. The GA is going to eat it up.

IoJovi wrote:

Helix wrote:Makes me wonder if George doesn't/wouldn't care for the way the ST is going. Frankly I love the fresh new ideas, but plenty old 'old skool' fans hate the new ideas. There's plenty who do and are open to the new stuff, the people who don't are just always the most vocal.

@Helix

The truth is they are NEVER going to please everybody - that is an uphill battle no one can win. I'm sure when all is said and done, there are going to be corners that will absolutely hate this trilogy (too nuanced, too many shades of grey, not enough good vs evil), but ask yourselves, is that really a gripping, powerful story you'd expect from a story of epic proportions? If they churn out something the fanboys would want, sure that section will be happy, but in the end you'll have something so forgettable the GA isn't going to be talking about it even six months later. What kills me though is Star Wars has ALWAYS been character driven, and we all know Anakin was never all light or all dark, much like a certain younger darksider we all know and love.

What's one single SW moment that 40 years later people still talk about? It's the "I Am Your Father" moment. It's iconic. It lets you know that what you thought was a bad*** 100% evil villain was anything but that. So I wonder why that faction think is our interpretation of TFA any different from that...

The truth is, the story team is using the same formula of the OT with a brand new unique story between villain and heroine. The GA is going to eat it up.

@IoJovi

Oh yeah, if we got a film for the fanboys it would be the most boring and predictable SW film to date. They would probably be the only ones who like it and in the end I'm happy KK and Lucasfilm aren't tripping over themselves to please them.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:I'm sorry to be snarky, but in end SW is nothing but a product that I and everyone else can choose to buy. It's LF's job to make it attractive me, not my job to pass some nerdtastic litmus test

The nerdtastic litmus test really is what 'traditional' (or legacy if you will) fandom has been for 40 years. I liked the movies as a kid but the whole business of fandom itself and what you were or weren't supposed to be interested in. Or God forbid, maybe it's not the cornerstone of your identity and there are other things you like the same way or even more than SW was always a big turn off for me. And it would seem to be at odds with everything Kathleen Kennedy has at least tried to stress about the franchise becoming more open to other fans outside of a very narrow demographic, that there shouldn't be any one 'right' way to be a fan. But otherwise, some of this just comes off as further gatekeeping - which at least from the executive level is something that they're supposed to be moving past.

@snufkin

Yeah, if I was part of the marketing team for the ST, I don't know if I would be in love with PH's twitter feed much of the time. I often wonder if the reason he hasn't been told to "de-snark" is because they know he represents the traditionalist fan and they want those fans to have "their person" when things start to become more open-ended in the franchise.

After going to SWC and then watching some of the panels (like that 40th anniversary one), I just really get the strong feeling that KK is performing a balancing act at all times. I need to go drive somewhere in a few minutes so I won't be able to complete this thought, but I will leave it at this ... I noticed a total lack of "crossing the streams" at SWC. IOW, there was no interaction between Rian Johnson and Daisy and John with George Lucas. I also felt a sense of "walking on eggshells" around GL at the 40th that I did not get when I was actually in the room for the TLJ panel. Further, KK and RJ had some palpable anxiety IMO, and KK made a point of talking about risk taking. I could be completely off, but I think that there is a tension between old and new, and I think that it's there because I don’t think that they are going to follow everything GL wanted. Just my opinion on the vibes I got.

@SoloSideCousin

I got the same impression. It really jumped out at me when Mark (as part of the TLJ panel) made the comment about how the ST really "aren't Luke's movies any more" or something like that...and KK quickly jumped in and pointed out that Mark/Luke would have a hugely important role in TLJ.

They're really walking a tightrope, as far as wanting to keep the old school fanboys happy while they're trying to bring in new fans and expand the Star Wars universe in general.

@ISeeAnIsland @SoloSideCousin

Oh agreed. I'm interested in everything that she's said in related press interviews about trying to change the business side/institutional culture of both Lucasfilm and the film industry to get more women into executive and technical positions. So that doesn't feel to me like somebody who's going to just continue the status quo with the movies when they're talking about changing the paradigm.

It's funny about the 40th anniversary panel, because my first thought was why wasn't James Earl Jones (who I'd argue *is* responsible more than anybody else for making Vader iconic) there. But now that you mention it, I wonder about Lawrence Kasdan also not being present or acknowledged. But after TFA came out Lucas stuck his foot in his mouth about how he felt like his characters had been sold to white slavers and how it was "the movie fans wanted." Like he obviously wasn't happy about the choices made for the original 3 characters. Which from stories about RotJ was what Kasdan had wanted for them. So you'd love to be a fly on the wall about whatever happened when he turned the company/franchise over to Kathleen Kennedy and Disney and then realized that they weren't going to be acting as custodians of his vision, including letting Kasdan finally write what he wanted.

Oh and speaking of Kasdan, I think this is why I always fall more towards being an 'acolyte' of his vision than Lucas'




Which I guess makes me a heretic or whatever in terms of traditional fandom, but his perspective always sounds broader and in understanding the influence/role of the original films and genres which inspired the OT. Versus feeling like a lot of traditional corners of fandom, every discussion ends and begins with what Lucas wanted.

Clearly Rey will be Luke 2.0 and Kylo will end up with Rian's self insert Jian Rohnson.

Helix wrote:Clearly Rey will be Luke 2.0 and Kylo will end up with Rian's self insert Jian Rohnson.

@Helix

I can see where you're going with this. Rian always wanted Adam's/Kylo's hair. Cheeky.

snufkin wrote:Oh and speaking of Kasdan, I think this is why I always fall more towards being an 'acolyte' of his vision than Lucas'




Which I guess makes me a heretic or whatever in terms of traditional fandom, but his perspective always sounds broader and in understanding the influence/role of the original films and genres which inspired the OT. Versus feeling like a lot of traditional corners of fandom, every discussion ends and begins with what Lucas wanted.

@snufkin

I am totally with you on Kasdan. And frankly I would probably be considered a GL heretic to some of the fandom. IMO the more power GL had the worse the movie was. GL is no James Cameron or Woody Allen who can pull everything off by himself. Sure in ANH it was his vision, but at that point he was still subject to producers and financiers and frankly his cast and crew to some extent because he was not a "big" director then. Also, he might be the type to produce better work while under pressure.

Further, ESB brought the franchise to the legendary level, not ANH, and that was when Irving Kershner (who Lucas greatly respected), and Kasdan and Brackett and Gary Kurtz were around. By ROTJ, Kurtz was gone, the director was subservient to Lucas and Kasdan was completely overruled, probably in large part due to GL's desire just to get out of SW and it showed.

By the time of TPM, people acted like he was god and he had full control and sadly that movie was far from divine. In fact, there are issues in that movie that make Michael Bay look like Francis Ford Coppola in the 70s, lol. There was more of the same in AOTC, but there were a few improvements because GL started to get help ... and after being critically panned for the first two prequels, GL started to get significant help for ROTS and again, he was under pressure not to blow the whole trilogy, so that movie was better ... but nowhere in the league of ESB where he had the most assistance, a ton of it from Kasdan.

And now it's Kasdan that has created the foundation for the ST. It's Kasdan and his writing (particularly of Kylo) that has brought many people either into or back into the franchise.

Frankly, my husband didn’t even want to see TFA. If it was GL I wouldn't have broken my neck. It was the new team that got me in the door. I convinced my husband by reminding him that GL was gone, that it was different team, that it was the guy who wrote The Big Chill and the guy who had the guts to blow up Vulcan. I know a bunch of people in that "fanboy" age category that were done with GL and only went because it was a new crew.

So yes in serious fandom most people are all about GL, but in that next, bigger concentric circle are people who are thrilled that this thing no longer belongs to him and hopes that the team won't be too loyal to him. KK needs to balance thesw competing interests along with what the GA wants. Under those circumstances I don’t think it will be all what George would want.

@SoloSideCousin - shoot I forgot about Brackett for a second and her influence/contribution is huge too. Also not mentioned along with Kasdan and Jones for the tribute. And I just read about how he had script doctoring help for the first movie from his American Graffiti co-writers, Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz. Katz wrote Leia's best lines, especially when she and Han are bickering

The unsung women of Star Wars: buns, a dead Obi-Wan and the script doctor Showbusiness might, as Carrie Fisher wrote, be a man’s meal, but a group of women played a crucial role in creating the blockbuster franchise

Katz tells me: “George didn’t want anyone to know we worked on the [Star Wars] script. We tried to punch up the characterisation and add as much humour as possible.” In fact, Lucas says they wrote about 30 percent of the dialogue, according to Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays by Laurent Bouzereau. The Katz and Huyck lines are marked out in Bouzereau’s book, and stand out a mile against Lucas’ incomprehensible dialogue. Invariably it is the whip-smart repartee – “Will somebody get that walking carpet out of my way?” and ”You came in that thing? You’re braver than I thought!” – that came from Katz and Huyck. Lucas was later nominated for an Oscar for the Star Wars screenplay, while his secret co-writers remained uncredited.

Their other key contribution to the movie was giving Princess Leia her kick-a** attitude. “George originally wanted Yvette Mimieux in her heydey as Leia,” Katz says. In other words, a blonde bombshell. However, the casting of headstrong brunette Cindy Williams in American Graffiti made Lucas reconsider. Katz says: “We told George that Leia’s character should be more Hawksian woman,” – Barbara Stanwyck or Lauren Bacall – “someone who could take command, who doesn’t take any s***, but at the same time is vulnerable; to write her as really focused instead of just a beautiful woman who schleps along to be saved. And because Carrie Fisher was so young, the contrast between this young girl and her goals became more poignant.”

snufkin wrote:@SoloSideCousin - shoot I forgot about Brackett for a second and her influence/contribution is huge too. Also not mentioned along with Kasdan and Jones for the tribute. And I just read about how he had script doctoring help for the first movie from his American Graffiti co-writers, Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz. Katz wrote Leia's best lines, especially when she and Han are bickering

The unsung women of Star Wars: buns, a dead Obi-Wan and the script doctor Showbusiness might, as Carrie Fisher wrote, be a man’s meal, but a group of women played a crucial role in creating the blockbuster franchise

Katz tells me: “George didn’t want anyone to know we worked on the [Star Wars] script. We tried to punch up the characterisation and add as much humour as possible.” In fact, Lucas says they wrote about 30 percent of the dialogue, according to Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays by Laurent Bouzereau. The Katz and Huyck lines are marked out in Bouzereau’s book, and stand out a mile against Lucas’ incomprehensible dialogue. Invariably it is the whip-smart repartee – “Will somebody get that walking carpet out of my way?” and ”You came in that thing? You’re braver than I thought!” – that came from Katz and Huyck. Lucas was later nominated for an Oscar for the Star Wars screenplay, while his secret co-writers remained uncredited.

Their other key contribution to the movie was giving Princess Leia her kick-a** attitude. “George originally wanted Yvette Mimieux in her heydey as Leia,” Katz says. In other words, a blonde bombshell. However, the casting of headstrong brunette Cindy Williams in American Graffiti made Lucas reconsider. Katz says: “We told George that Leia’s character should be more Hawksian woman,” – Barbara Stanwyck or Lauren Bacall – “someone who could take command, who doesn’t take any s***, but at the same time is vulnerable; to write her as really focused instead of just a beautiful woman who schleps along to be saved. And because Carrie Fisher was so young, the contrast between this young girl and her goals became more poignant.”

@snufkin

Wow. Talk about getting help!!!! 30% of ANH's dialogue? Marcia Lucas edited all 3 of the OT *and* had edited Taxi Driver for Scorsese?!!!!! (Now that's a director who has an eye for great editing and who has had a woman editor forever with the great Thelma Schoonmaker). Marcia told him to kill Ben? Good grief we can thank Marcia for not only Han Solo's perfectly timed rescue of Luke but also for the freaking catwalk scene in TFA because Han had become Ben Kenobi!!!

And 30% of the dialogue and he didn't want to give that couple credit? He took the Oscar nomination on his own without giving them credit? The hairdresser wasn't even credited?!!!

I'm sorry, but all of this looks really, really bad ... especially since GL frequently likes to play "Sunday School Teacher." Not giving credit to people is a really terrible character trait.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:I'm sorry to be snarky, but in end SW is nothing but a product that I and everyone else can choose to buy.  It's LF's job to make it attractive me, not my job to pass some nerdtastic litmus test

The nerdtastic litmus test really is what 'traditional' (or legacy if you will) fandom has been for 40 years. I liked the movies as a kid but the whole business of fandom itself and what you were or weren't supposed to be interested in. Or God forbid, maybe it's not the cornerstone of your identity and there are other things you like the same way or even more than SW was always a big turn off for me. And it would seem to be at odds with everything Kathleen Kennedy has at least tried to stress about the franchise becoming more open to other fans outside of a very narrow demographic, that there shouldn't be any one 'right' way to be a fan. But otherwise, some of this just comes off as further gatekeeping - which at least from the executive level is something that they're supposed to be moving past.

@snufkin

Yeah, if I was part of the marketing team for the ST, I don't know if I would be in love with PH's twitter feed much of the time. I often wonder if the reason he hasn't been told to "de-snark" is because they know he represents the traditionalist fan and they want those fans to have "their person" when things start to become more open-ended in the franchise.

After going to SWC and then watching some of the panels (like that 40th anniversary one), I just really get the strong feeling that KK is performing a balancing act at all times. I need to go drive somewhere in a few minutes so I won't be able to complete this thought, but I will leave it at this ... I noticed a total lack of "crossing the streams" at SWC. IOW, there was no interaction between Rian Johnson and Daisy and John with George Lucas. I also felt a sense of "walking on eggshells" around GL at the 40th that I did not get when I was actually in the room for the TLJ panel. Further, KK and RJ had some palpable anxiety IMO, and KK made a point of talking about risk taking. I could be completely off, but I think that there is a tension between old and new, and I think that it's there because I don’t think that they are going to follow everything GL wanted. Just my opinion on the vibes I got.

@SoloSideCousin

There is definitely a dichotomy going on in terms of how old guard Lucasfilm headed by George Lucas and new guard Lucasfilm with Kathleen Kennedy are handling their fans and I feel that Pablo clearly represents one of those old guard, traditionalist members. That balancing act we were seeing at SWC seems like its related to these growing pains. The mention of having to adhere to a "nerdtastic litmus test" reminds me of a really old discussion regarding fandom. I'm going to reference an 8 year old posting from Dreamwidth by obsession_inc, which breaks fandom down into two types. "Affirmational" fandom and "Transformational" fandom.

In this case George Lucas and the traditionalist fandom comes across as Affirmational, "the source material is re-stated, the author's purpose divined to the community's satisfaction, rules established on how the characters are and how the universe works", which means that in the eyes of George and Pablo they are the last word on everything and what they say is gospel. If George Lucas wants to keep editing "his Star Wars movies" he has the right to because as the all knowing author he is "The only one who really knows". Pablo can be snarky and dismiss the use of "grey jedi" because he knows what's really going on behind the scenes and would rather you not question things. Affirmational fandom also tends to be fans who are all about the minutiae and are typically male.

Enter Kathleen Kennedy and what I feel is her desire to bring in a larger fan base, particularly a female fan base to Star Wars. As of 2014 women made up more than 50% of the movie going population. This is a market that Kathleen, Disney and the Star Wars brand needs to capitalize on if it wants to have legs. And Disney understands the power of female movie goers. Just look at this years number one top grossing movie Beauty and the Beast.

"Transformational" fandom is "about laying hands upon the source and twisting it to the fans' own purposes, whether that is to fix a disappointing issue (a distinct lack of sex-having between two characters, of course, is a favorite issue to fix) in the source material, or using the source material to illustrate a point". This part of fandom is were we see fan art, fan films and metas. This part of fandom culture also tends to be female. The very fact that we have actors being allowed to acknowledge fan art and even bring up the shipping terms like Reylo and Stormpilot in interviews seems very telling of the new direction the company is going in. They are trying to embrace a part of fandom that was previously dismissed. This isn't to say there aren't male and female fans who fall into both categorizes, just food for thought.

I have a lot more to say on this, but unfortunately I have to get to bed. So I'll just stop here for now.

Original post by obsession_inc: https://obsession-inc.dreamwidth.org/82589.html

Does anyone know if Han and Leia romance was shown in marketing and promotion for ESB? I'm guessing it was not since they were still playing with the idea of a love triangle and Luke-Leia's relationship wasn't revealed yet right?

Just getting a bit restless and wondering why they are promoting FinnRose romance but not Reylo, lol. (at least Adam and Daisy's pairing interview)

shii405 wrote:Does anyone know if Han and Leia romance was shown in marketing and promotion for ESB? I'm guessing it was not since they were still playing with the idea of a love triangle and Luke-Leia's relationship wasn't revealed yet right?

Just getting a bit restless and wondering why they are promoting FinnRose romance but not Reylo, lol. (at least Adam and Daisy's pairing interview)

@shii405

I'm not sure when exactly the official poster was revealed, but the pairing of Han and Leia was quite obvious.
No way they will promote Kylo and Rey together, if they intend it to be the big shocker. I think the teaser poster itself is very telling. Apparently Luke and Kylo will have huge influences on her.

shii405 wrote:Does anyone know if Han and Leia romance was shown in marketing and promotion for ESB? I'm guessing it was not since they were still playing with the idea of a love triangle and Luke-Leia's relationship wasn't revealed yet right?

Just getting a bit restless and wondering why they are promoting FinnRose romance but not Reylo, lol. (at least Adam and Daisy's pairing interview)

@shii405

Actually, it was. This is the theatrical poster:



It definitely counts as a spoiler IMO but you could argue HanLeia never had the surprise factor of Reylo. If Reylo is meant to be a huge twist (and as you know, I'm not convinced it's the huge twist) they won't market it at all, or with some oblique "intertwined destinies" stuff.

Remains to be seen how much, if at all, Reylo is hinted at in the coming months. If we do start getting overt hints, it would make more sense for that to happen closer to December when people have the time to go "wait, what?" but won't have months to analyse what exactly it means going forward.

I'm especially curious about the Vanity Fair photos, obviously... and the theatrical poster as well, because I thought the poster for TFA was quite Reylo (to the point that a lot of people seemed to think the poster indicated they were twins).

I do think FinnRose will be marketed more as the "obvious" romance, though. They're obviously keen for people to open their minds to that dynamic.

Yeah, I think they won't promote Reylo. Maybe subtle hints, but it'll be a big surprise in the movie itself.

EP.9 better have a poster with Rey holding a swooning, shirtless Kylo tho.

EchoBase wrote:

shii405 wrote:Does anyone know if Han and Leia romance was shown in marketing and promotion for ESB? I'm guessing it was not since they were still playing with the idea of a love triangle and Luke-Leia's relationship wasn't revealed yet right?

Just getting a bit restless and wondering why they are promoting FinnRose romance but not Reylo, lol. (at least Adam and Daisy's pairing interview)

@shii405

I'm not sure when exactly the official poster was revealed, but the pairing of Han and Leia was quite obvious.
No way they will promote Kylo and Rey together, if they intend it to be the big shocker. I think the teaser poster itself is very telling. Apparently Luke and Kylo will have huge influences on her.

@EchoBase

Yes, and I'm pretty sure Luke's influence will be negative...both the rather sinister appearance of him in the poster and all those comments about Rey finding he 'isn't what she expected' points to that.

I have a strong feeling TLJ will end with Rey joining Kylo which will be a cliffhanger!

Reylo would be the ultimate game changer as it would have very direct effects on the central plot. Kylo's feelings for Rey could be the thing that brings him back to the light, or at least away from Snoke/the First Order. Yes the Han/Leia romance depicted on the poster was a spoiler for ESB, but given that Kylo and Rey are adversaries on opposite sides of the war, this sort of twist is more on the scale of Vader revealing that he is Luke's father. Rey, just like Luke, will be the reason that the villain rethinks and finally resolves his inner conflict.

Even on the TLJ poster I detect a message of unity between the currently rival characters. Luke and Kylo are clearly shown to be at odds, but there is Rey standing in the center, using her light to possibly bring these two together into an alliance that would otherwise not happen.

I think a good cliffhanger would be if at the end of TLJ we'd be left in the dark, so to speak, as to whether Rey is going to go 'dark' or not, and in IX she ends up leading Kylo back into the Light instead.
I think - in fact I'd like - both of them to be more 'grey', as Rey isn't a milk and water heroine so to speak, she has issues, and Kylo is too damaged and has done too much to be Ben Solo again. Those who love him will have to accept him for what he is.

I have a head canon of Rey learning more about Kylo and sympathising with him by the middle of Episode 8....in the meantime...Finn, Poe and Rose reach Ach-to to rescue Rey but instead all five get stranded in some nasty part of the island like the movie Letters Never Sent and are being chased by the FO/the criminal elements in the galaxy... then Kylo saves their lives a couple of times, Rey explains that Kylo is actually a good guy to the others and by the time they escape in episode 9, the five of them are friends....

panki wrote:I have a head canon of Rey learning more about Kylo and sympathising with him by the middle of Episode 8....in the meantime...Finn, Poe and Rose reach Ach-to to rescue Rey but instead all five get stranded in some nasty part of the island like the movie Letters Never Sent and are being chased by the FO/the criminal elements in the galaxy... then Kylo saves their lives a couple of times, Rey explains that Kylo is actually a good guy to the others and by the time they escape in episode 9, the five of them are friends....

@panki

I like that!

Sorry, I'm sure this has been discussed before. I must have missed it. Can anyone please enlighten me the reason of this cast order? I understand the original big3 has to be on top. But Adam before Daisy? As the villain, I would think he'd be placed No.4 after Daisy, John, Oscar. Even after all the Reylo theories, I would still think Adam should be placed 2nd to Daisy in the credit, no?



With this order, may I assume that Rey is just the 2nd main character and that the true main character / (anti) hero of the whole saga here is Kylo Ren?

Hmm... so ST is really about a reverse-Anakin...

Forgive me if anyone's ever talked about this but I had this thought. The scene where Rey and Kylo meet for the first time and the Han and Leia reunion feels really important, especially with how they framed it and because their scenes are right next to each other.


Rey and Kylo meet in the Takodana forest for the first time.


Leia and the Resistance ship land on Takodana.


Kylo takes an unconscious Rey onto his ship.


Han waits for Leia to exit the ship.


Kylo's ship flies away from Takodana.


Han and Leia reunite on Takodana.

This feels pretty heavy-handed to me and it's not that the dialogue or even context of the scenes are similar, they're very different, but the visual notes being taken in both these scenes connotes something very specific to me. I know the reverse trajectory with Padme/Anakin are what most people talk about with Rey and Kylo's dynamic but I thought this was really interesting. It's like the two scenes are inverts of one another and I feel stupid for never picking up on it before despite how many times I've watched the movie.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

shii405 wrote:Does anyone know if Han and Leia romance was shown in marketing and promotion for ESB? I'm guessing it was not since they were still playing with the idea of a love triangle and Luke-Leia's relationship wasn't revealed yet right?

Just getting a bit restless and wondering why they are promoting FinnRose romance but not Reylo, lol. (at least Adam and Daisy's pairing interview)

@shii405

Actually, it was. This is the theatrical poster:



It definitely counts as a spoiler IMO but you could argue HanLeia never had the surprise factor of Reylo. If Reylo is meant to be a huge twist (and as you know, I'm not convinced it's the huge twist) they won't market it at all, or with some oblique "intertwined destinies" stuff.

Remains to be seen how much, if at all, Reylo is hinted at in the coming months. If we do start getting overt hints, it would make more sense for that to happen closer to December when people have the time to go "wait, what?" but won't have months to analyse what exactly it means going forward.

I'm especially curious about the Vanity Fair photos, obviously... and the theatrical poster as well, because I thought the poster for TFA was quite Reylo (to the point that a lot of people seemed to think the poster indicated they were twins).

@Darth Dingbat

Yep, right on the poster in a pose which references Gone with the Wind. And the whole expectations about potential Vanity Fair pictures, the very first set Annie Leibowitz did was for The Empire Strikes Back, which had a cover story for Rolling Stone where the actors discussed Leia and Han having a romance.

@nemapasara - that whole sequence splits the 6 actors into 3 pairs where you'd guess that's the critical relationship to one another. But in the cross cut with Han and Leia (who are also his parents and he's the product of that epic romance), you get the sense of one relationship coming to its end, while the other is just starting.

I've read quite a few comments from viewers who thought Rey and Finn were 'boring' and Kylo the most interesting character in the film.

I personally don't find Finn and Rey boring at all, but it shows how much of an impact Kylo has made. I think that TLJ will show all the characters in a new light - Finn and Rey will be facing some pretty harsh tests, according to Oscar. And Kylo...

I think Kylo is going to be shown as extremely vulnerable.