Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

@Helix - I'm going with the theory that Leia took Rey to that shopping/spa planet Carrie Fisher always joked about and that while they were there, she helped her get fitted for some fancy high end undergarments because she never got to have the shopping experience with a daughter. Whatever they used in that photo, it's way more flattering than the gaffer tape used on Leia's boobs to prevent zero gravity bra strangling.

snufkin wrote:@Helix  - I'm going with the theory that Leia took Rey to that shopping/spa planet Carrie Fisher always joked about and that while they were there, she helped her get fitted for some fancy high end undergarments because she never got to have the shopping experience with a daughter. Whatever they used in that photo, it's way more flattering than the gaffer tape used on Leia's boobs to prevent zero gravity bra strangling.

@snufkin

I'd love to know what was going through Lucas' mind when he came up with the idea that 'there is no underwear in space'. My favourite part of CF's roast of Lucas was her comment that 'I bet [Padme] wore a bra... You told me, George: there is no underwear in space!'

So, the GFFA has mastered interstellar travel, built planet-wide cities criss-crossed by flying cars, but a bra is WAY beyond their capabilities?

Or maybe it's an Alderaan thing...

@Armadeus - LOL, "Queen Armadillo, who has a costume change every time she walks through a door way. I bet that chick got to wear a bra." I think the translation is that bras girls things, therefore completely mystifying to ol George. Kind of like how journalist Sarah Jeong has busted on the PT being about how an entire civilization falls into totalitarianism because some guy is too much of a dude to drive his wife to Lamaze class.

Helix wrote:Boobgate was the best gate along with Kylo's suspicious bulge-gate.

@Helix

Yes - and why did those carefully staged photos present both actors in frankly sexy poses?
None of the other characters were depicted like that, from Leia and LD's character in their flowing robes to Finn, Poe and Rose fully covered in androgynous uniforms?

Armadeus wrote:

snufkin wrote:@Helix  - I'm going with the theory that Leia took Rey to that shopping/spa planet Carrie Fisher always joked about and that while they were there, she helped her get fitted for some fancy high end undergarments because she never got to have the shopping experience with a daughter. Whatever they used in that photo, it's way more flattering than the gaffer tape used on Leia's boobs to prevent zero gravity bra strangling.

@snufkin

I'd love to know what was going through Lucas' mind when he came up with the idea that 'there is no underwear in space'. My favourite part of CF's roast of Lucas was her comment that 'I bet [Padme] wore a bra... You told me, George: there is no underwear in space!'

So, the GFFA has mastered interstellar travel, built planet-wide cities criss-crossed by flying cars, but a bra is WAY beyond their capabilities?

Or maybe it's an Alderaan thing...

@Armadeus

*Come and get 3 for the price of 2 - the Alderaan special strangling bras*

Okay, what about the guys?
How many bets Kylo isn't wearing much under those leathers?
And did Luke, Han or Anakin ever wear jockstraps...

motherofpearl1 wrote:It always irks me that people believe being 'strong' means choosing to live your life alone.
Some of the strongest women in history were in happy relationships. Katharine Hepburn was an amazingly independant lady in a time when women were supposed to be subservient yet enjoyed a long love affair with Spencer Tracy. Elizabeth 1 may have been single all her life, but had lovers - she never married because it would have meant relinquishing rule of England.

You can be part of a couple and still be strong.

@motherofpearl1

Totally agree with wou. You can be a strong character - whatever the gender is - and be in a happy relationship at the same time. Look at Simone Veil who sadly passed away last friday. To me, she was the best living example of a strong human-being. She went through so many tragedies in her life - because of her imprisonment in Auschwitz-Birkenau and the death of her whole family - achieved great things (law about the right for abortion, first president of the European Parliament) and was happily married for 67 years with her husband. Why do some people keep thinking that love prevent womento achieving great things. You better achieve great things when you feel happy and well-balanced in your live. Great men rarely achieve something great without the support of a partner. Why would it be different for women? We're neither worst nor better than men.

Every time I read those arguments, it's the wrong example to making that argument about -  for both for the story/franchise and the character herself being shown as so isolated/lonely. There's definitely plenty of examples in current pop culture where this argument should be made. Like what a s**tty job Star Wars has done to date with simply showing a range of female characters, both as central characters, characters who are WoC, and just having a universe where you have more female characters than just the lead. Including showing the leads having more to their stories and character than being the LI of the male lead - which is what we're already getting with Rey. But beyond that, it's a really simplistic argument instead of the real issue, writing better female characters who are complex and have relationships/interests outside of how they related/support to the male characters. Whether or not they're in a relationship or just simply are getting some is irrelevant to the larger argument that fans should be making. We are at least getting some ridiculously long overdue female characters in TLJ (not everything should rest on Rey's shoulders, there's Paige/Rose, Holdo, Phasma, and just more women shown as existing in that universe) and the Forces of Destiny series.

It's also I suspect, a bit pre-emptive not just in trying to avoid some of the fanboy backlash against "my Star Wars being ruined by dumb girls," but pre-emptive against the suspicion that if she is going to get involved with any of the male characters, it's the one that a lot of these same fans absolutely hate. Which another interesting question, how often do these fans ever stop to consider some of the antagonism that they have against this character is tied up with how that character doesn't conform to gender norms for masculinity?

On a side note, anybody who uses the "she should stay single/be strong" type argument when it comes to fandom should at least be aware about how that argument is one which more than frequently gets used about characters who are WoC and understand why it's not always as feminist as they probably think it is.

I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

Saracene wrote:I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

@Saracene

I think that's part of it. They see Reylo as a very legitimate story arc and they're frightened by it. What they fail to realize though is how empowering for Rey as a woman, to make her own choices of who she wants to be with, even if it ends up being the damaged son of legends who she can help out out back together and make whole again.

Rey is a scavenger. That's what she does. She finds broken things nobody else wants, sees the hidden value and puts them back together again. How that's anti-feminist I'll never know

IoJovi wrote:

Saracene wrote:I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

@Saracene

I think that's part of it. They see Reylo as a very legitimate story arc and they're frightened by it. What they fail to realize though is how empowering for Rey as a woman, to make her own choices of who she wants to be with, even if it ends up being the damaged son of legends who she can help out out back together and make whole again.

Rey is a scavenger. That's what she does. She finds broken things nobody else wants, sees the hidden value and puts them back together again. How that's anti-feminist I'll never know

@IoJovi

I suddenly got a mental image of Rey selling Kylo for... five thousand portions!

Completely agree that some of what drives the "strong female character" comments is that fans who expected that Rey and Finn being a sweet and adorable couple while that awful emo villain gets darker until they kill him are realizing that's not what's going to happen based on the scant information about TLJ. You also see a lot of comments about how they're fine with a redemption arc as long as it doesn't involve Rey. Which yes, agreed that it should not be a situation where she has to do the emotional labor for a male character. Especially because that was a central plot point (dead mom, wife in danger who drives hero's descent into villany) for the PT. But again, things like the Databank information and Blue Ray director's commentary point towards these two characters being involved with each other in a way which drives their respective stories and character development. Which those same fans are not happy about. This is actually where I sort of fall on the romance or not spectrum. That it's likely to happen, but it'll come out of something that's complicated, egalitarian, not romance for the sake of checking off a plot point, and where they likely end up helping each other evolve/change.

The other thing about these arguments goes back to @Armadeus' comment about some fans wanting to infantilize her when she's a grown adult. I was talking awhile back to a friend whose daughter is getting close to hitting adolescence, so she's trying to figure out The Talk ahead of time. Not just the basics, but about consent, self-defense, sexual exploration and orientations, what constitutes a healthy attitude etc. So she was reading Peggy Orenstein's book and commented that just talking about the sexuality of young women in a context of anything other than morality or even self defense, like God forbid acknowledging that this is part of their development and something that they have a right to explore/enjoy, is a 3rd rail in our society. That if you talked about how some of the "Feeling the Force" between these two characters can be read to have a sexual subtext and that there are moments when she's lost in the experience of sharing that sensation with him, that would likely freak out a lot of fans because of those attitudes.

Saracene wrote:I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

@Saracene

It would end up worse for Finn's than Rey's character, I think. He would be in her shadow, her sidekick to the end of episode IX. With Reylo, it could be Rey that is overshadowed (it's more likely than Kylo being overshadowed) if it's badly done.

For me, Kylo was the most interesting character in TFA. It is good that Finn will have his own adventure in TLJ. He has the chance to became more interesting and compelling. Rey's character needs more layers. The more character is like the "strong female/male (Does this term exist?) lead" the bigger chances that she will end up as Mary Sue type (And this term is not sexist. There are male characters that have simillar problems and are called Gary Stu). For now, Rey was the only important character that didn't need help. The rest needed some. Han, Finn, Poe, Kylo (he didn't get help because Rey escaped from him. Snoke is not that quick ). They all needed help. Only Rey can handle herself. This is why I don't get the comments that Reylo is abusive and it is Kylo that is the abuser. From what I saw in TFA, I think differently. I don't consider it abusive, but if it's abusive then Rey is the abuser (he let her do it I know but it show him as a masochist, so it doesn't change much ). I would appreciate if she would show more of her flaws in the upcoming movies, more than in TFA. Her character would benefit much from it, the story would benefit too.

Saracene wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

Saracene wrote:I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

@Saracene

I think that's part of it. They see Reylo as a very legitimate story arc and they're frightened by it. What they fail to realize though is how empowering for Rey as a woman, to make her own choices of who she wants to be with, even if it ends up being the damaged son of legends who she can help out out back together and make whole again.

Rey is a scavenger. That's what she does. She finds broken things nobody else wants, sees the hidden value and puts them back together again. How that's anti-feminist I'll never know

@IoJovi

I suddenly got a mental image of Rey selling Kylo for... five thousand portions!

@Saracene



I cackled out loud at this. I'm picturing all kinds of things with this scenario, and in every single one it's Kylo who winds up without his dignity...

Geralt_Riv wrote:

Saracene wrote:I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

@Saracene

It would end up worse for Finn's than Rey's character, I think. He would be in her shadow, her sidekick to the end of episode IX. With Reylo, it could be Rey that is overshadowed (it's more likely than Kylo being overshadowed) if it's badly done.

For me, Kylo was the most interesting character in TFA. It is good that Finn will have his own adventure in TLJ. He has the chance to became more interesting and compelling. Rey's character needs more layers. The more character is like the "strong female/male (Does this term exist?) lead" the bigger chances that she will end up as Mary Sue type (And this term is not sexist. There are male characters that have simillar problems and are called Gary Stu). For now, Rey was the only important character that didn't need help. The rest needed some. Han, Finn, Poe, Kylo (he didn't get help because Rey escaped from him. Snoke is not that quick ). They all needed help. Only Rey can handle herself. This is why I don't get the comments that Reylo is abusive and it is Kylo that is the abuser. From what I saw in TFA, I think differently. I don't consider it abusive, but if it's abusive then Rey is the abuser (he let her do it I know but it show him as a masochist, so it doesn't change much ). I would appreciate if she would show more of her flaws in the upcoming movies, more than in TFA. Her character would benefit much from it, the story would benefit too.  

@Geralt_Riv

Totally agree about absolutely everything there! Below an interview about Emma Watson's responding to criticisms about Belle supposedly having the Stockholm Syndrome stressing how Belle remains strongly independant and argues with Beast. Even more interesting is the way she sees the relationship between Belle and Beast stressing the important of having them developing "slowly slowly slowly"  a friendship before ultimately falling in love. I think this is important to keep all these things in mind especially when we get worry that romantic Reylo would not happen by the end of the trilogy

Every time this gif set comes up in my Tumblr feed, I literally laugh out loud. Foreshadowing much?

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Every time this gif set comes up in my Tumblr feed, I literally laugh out loud. Foreshadowing much?

@Cowgirlsamurai

It's hard to know if this is done purposely but if it is, my god.

Yeah Finn you're going to be glad that one is none of your business when the time comes...

That is awesome.

@IoJovi

I don't think it was intentional at all, but I can't stop laughing

Ditto!

However "boyfriend" was a term thrown around a few times.......
I have never seen that gif! It's awesome! Hahaha!

reylo1992 wrote:

Geralt_Riv wrote:

Saracene wrote:I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

@Saracene

It would end up worse for Finn's than Rey's character, I think. He would be in her shadow, her sidekick to the end of episode IX. With Reylo, it could be Rey that is overshadowed (it's more likely than Kylo being overshadowed) if it's badly done.

For me, Kylo was the most interesting character in TFA. It is good that Finn will have his own adventure in TLJ. He has the chance to became more interesting and compelling. Rey's character needs more layers. The more character is like the "strong female/male (Does this term exist?) lead" the bigger chances that she will end up as Mary Sue type (And this term is not sexist. There are male characters that have simillar problems and are called Gary Stu). For now, Rey was the only important character that didn't need help. The rest needed some. Han, Finn, Poe, Kylo (he didn't get help because Rey escaped from him. Snoke is not that quick ). They all needed help. Only Rey can handle herself. This is why I don't get the comments that Reylo is abusive and it is Kylo that is the abuser. From what I saw in TFA, I think differently. I don't consider it abusive, but if it's abusive then Rey is the abuser (he let her do it I know but it show him as a masochist, so it doesn't change much ). I would appreciate if she would show more of her flaws in the upcoming movies, more than in TFA. Her character would benefit much from it, the story would benefit too.  

@Geralt_Riv

Totally agree about absolutely everything there! Below an interview about Emma Watson's responding to criticisms about Belle supposedly having the Stockholm Syndrome stressing how Belle remains strongly independant and argues with Beast. Even more interesting is the way she sees the relationship between Belle and Beast stressing the important of having them developing "slowly slowly slowly"  a friendship before ultimately falling in love. I think this is important to keep all these things in mind especially when we get worry that romantic Reylo would not happen by the end of the trilogy

@reylo1992

The more I think about it, the more I think of the three stages of Belle and the Beast's relationship, and how Kylo and Rey's might be told over three films:
Hatred - The Force Awakens (she even calls him a monster)
Pity - The Last Jedi
Love - Episode 9

Sometimes I wonder if antis even watched SW. I mean, those movies made a romantic lead out of a bad boy twice, even though OT had a nice guy option, since Luke/Leia were GL's original plan. However, thank goodness that Kasdan had enough common sense to stop that boredom from happening, so we got Hanleia in ESB. GL dutifully neutered them in ROTJ by giving them Fictional Couple's Malady (character transplant that changes their personalities from pre-hookup spunky to post-hookup dull) but the point still is that the romantic hero role was given to the cynical and selfish drug spice smuggler who shoots first, not to the righteous wide-eyed farmer turned knight in a shiny armor.

PT actually tried the Byronic Hero route with Anakin. Lines like this:



would not be out of place in a Heathcliffe monologue but Lucas makes several cardinal mistakes in setting the stage for true Byronic melodrama that most fans didn't recognize this intention on his part. However, the point is, that the romantic hero of the trilogy is the legit bad guy and there isn't even a half-arsed attempt at a love triangle with the good guy to give that one some romantic sheen.

So how's ST controversial or anti-SW for positioning Kylo as the romantic (Byronic) hero?

Regarding Lord Ren, I bought a talking Kylo Ren plushie, and does anyone know if that's actually Adam's voice on there?

motherofpearl1 wrote:Regarding Lord Ren, I bought a talking Kylo Ren plushie, and does anyone know if that's actually Adam's voice on there?

@motherofpearl1

Is this the same one where he sounds more like he's trying get a girl into bed than trying to turning someone over to the Darkside?

He says, "Don't fight it. You know you can't." I know this because I bought this for my mom...

motherofpearl1 wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:

Geralt_Riv wrote:

Saracene wrote:I do think that the "strong single female character" stuff gets trotted out to specifically protest Rey's relationship with Kylo. If Rey instead got to have a sweet uncomplicated romantic relationship with Finn, I don't think there'd be much fuss at all, either from traditional fanboys or feminists.

@Saracene

It would end up worse for Finn's than Rey's character, I think. He would be in her shadow, her sidekick to the end of episode IX. With Reylo, it could be Rey that is overshadowed (it's more likely than Kylo being overshadowed) if it's badly done.

For me, Kylo was the most interesting character in TFA. It is good that Finn will have his own adventure in TLJ. He has the chance to became more interesting and compelling. Rey's character needs more layers. The more character is like the "strong female/male (Does this term exist?) lead" the bigger chances that she will end up as Mary Sue type (And this term is not sexist. There are male characters that have simillar problems and are called Gary Stu). For now, Rey was the only important character that didn't need help. The rest needed some. Han, Finn, Poe, Kylo (he didn't get help because Rey escaped from him. Snoke is not that quick ). They all needed help. Only Rey can handle herself. This is why I don't get the comments that Reylo is abusive and it is Kylo that is the abuser. From what I saw in TFA, I think differently. I don't consider it abusive, but if it's abusive then Rey is the abuser (he let her do it I know but it show him as a masochist, so it doesn't change much ). I would appreciate if she would show more of her flaws in the upcoming movies, more than in TFA. Her character would benefit much from it, the story would benefit too.  

@Geralt_Riv

Totally agree about absolutely everything there! Below an interview about Emma Watson's responding to criticisms about Belle supposedly having the Stockholm Syndrome stressing how Belle remains strongly independant and argues with Beast. Even more interesting is the way she sees the relationship between Belle and Beast stressing the important of having them developing "slowly slowly slowly"  a friendship before ultimately falling in love. I think this is important to keep all these things in mind especially when we get worry that romantic Reylo would not happen by the end of the trilogy

@reylo1992

The more I think about it, the more I think of the three stages of Belle and the Beast's relationship, and how Kylo and Rey's might be told over three films:
Hatred - The Force Awakens (she even calls him a monster)
Pity - The Last Jedi
Love - Episode 9

@motherofpearl1

Agree! I have the same feeling about this