Discussions: Tweets/Instagram

I find the Grey Jedi debate so tiresome that every time I see the word these days I feel like throwing my laptop out of the kitchen window.

That's why I only believe in the Candy Pink Jedi, who use the fabulous side of the Force. There's no light and dark, only things that are fabulous and things that are un-fabulous.

There's also a dress code.

I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

@Darth Dingbat

But balance in Star Wars doesn't mean "grey" - Lucas's view was that balance only came in Return of the Jedi, when the Sith were destroyed but the Jedi remained. He said it was the Sith who threw the Force out of balance because the Dark Side is power-hungry and consumes everything, and the Jedi fell because they became too "grey" and got involved in a war.

Even in the new canon Bendu says he's "the one in the middle" but ends up being angry and destructive - that's the Dark Side.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

@Darth Dingbat

I don't personally see them criticising the balance, although Dave Filoni and others' comments about Bendu do suggest they favour the choosing of sides in storytelling. I think the balance, as we hear Rey say it in TLJ trailer, isn't meant to be viewed as being in between light and dark, as in taking aspects of both dark and light side philosophies, but as something more like Yin and Yang. As I understand it, it's more to do with the nature of dark and light, neither being good or evil, they just are as all natural forces are. It is the intention and philosophy of the force user that determines the moral side of it. The Jedi have their code and the Sith had their code, both used the force accordingly. The balance is by its nature neutral because it does not take sides or favour any one over the other. I'm probably explaining this badly, but basically I don't think it's the speculation about the balance that's the problem, it's the misunderstanding about how the Jedi could somehow become all things to all people.

BenOrgana wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

@Darth Dingbat

But balance in Star Wars doesn't mean "grey" - Lucas's view was that balance only came in Return of the Jedi, when the Sith were destroyed but the Jedi remained. He said it was the Sith who threw the Force out of balance because the Dark Side is power-hungry and consumes everything, and the Jedi fell because they became too "grey" and got involved in a war.

Even in the new canon Bendu says he's "the one in the middle" but ends up being angry and destructive - that's the Dark Side.

@BenOrgana

maybe they're going on a different direction in the ST. Both Jedi and Sith are wrong, but I'm biased on this matter. I just hate how jedi think. They want you to be compassionate, to love while they kill everybody and let themselves corrupted by both the dark side and fascist politics. maybe it's time for the Jedi...to recognize they're fricking wrong.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I find the Grey Jedi debate so tiresome that every time I see the word these days I feel like throwing my laptop out of the kitchen window.

That's why I only believe in the Candy Pink Jedi, who use the fabulous side of the Force. There's no light and dark, only things that are fabulous and things that are un-fabulous.

There's also a dress code.

@Darth Dingbat

Sign me up for that order. And the whole tiresome debate? This is where some of the stuff that reminds me of George Lucas talking about moral parables for children and God help me, he sounds like the most boring Sunday school teacher ever. Actually a lot of the 'debate' itself (or when people start earnestly arguing that Ben has to 'earn' his redemption) sound like a really tedious Bible study class.

BenOrgana wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

@Darth Dingbat

But balance in Star Wars doesn't mean "grey" - Lucas's view was that balance only came in Return of the Jedi, when the Sith were destroyed but the Jedi remained. He said it was the Sith who threw the Force out of balance because the Dark Side is power-hungry and consumes everything, and the Jedi fell because they became too "grey" and got involved in a war.

Even in the new canon Bendu says he's "the one in the middle" but ends up being angry and destructive - that's the Dark Side.

@BenOrgana

I know that was the vision of the OT, but I feel like they might be exploring some new ideas and questions about balance in the ST. If TLJ is going to explore what balance means this time around (as the teaser seems to imply, unless it's totally misleading) will they just go over the philosophy of the OT again?

I see the Bendu a bit differently - I felt like he represented the natural world, if you will. Life force itself, the nature, is neutral; but it finds a way of striking back if its harmony is disrupted. The Bendu didn't get angry and destructive out of greed or hunger for power or any other morally reprehensible motive, but because its habitat was threatened. But of course, moral agents must make moral decisions, and no conscious being can simply exist in a "natural" state. So one might argue that as a conscious being the Bendu's choice to stay out of the conflict and reject choosing sides even to the point of blowing up like he did was passive or even cowardly, but I don't see that passive neutrality as Dark, any more than the Lurmen in TCW were Dark, although their pacifism was also shown in a poor light.

I'm somehow getting the impression that the natural state of the Force is to be undivided, and the division itself is a wound that needs to be healed. The Dark Side wouldn't exist without the division.

Obviously, that has nothing to do with using Dark Side powers without repercussions, or whatever else people tend to mock the "Grey Jedi" term for.

BenOrgana wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

@Darth Dingbat

But balance in Star Wars doesn't mean "grey" - Lucas's view was that balance only came in Return of the Jedi, when the Sith were destroyed but the Jedi remained. He said it was the Sith who threw the Force out of balance because the Dark Side is power-hungry and consumes everything, and the Jedi fell because they became too "grey" and got involved in a war.

Even in the new canon Bendu says he's "the one in the middle" but ends up being angry and destructive - that's the Dark Side.

@BenOrgana

Yeah I'm beginning to think this might be the case. In the Rebels season four trailer Kanan tells Ezra, "we are the balance," meaning that the Jedi are the balance, I think. In the TLJ trailer, the word balance comes when they show the Jedi order symbol.

I think maybe the Jedi are supposed the be the balance of the universe...holding back the darkness to make sure it never takes over the light. There will always be dark and light, but they have to be kept in balance by the light-wielding Jedi.

It's not like Jedi don't mess up...Ezra has used the darkside and is still a Jedi...he's just not supposed to do it. Luke told Leia in Aftermath that everyone has light and darkness within them, so no one is pure light or dark...but that doesn't mean ppl should use both sides of the force either, I guess. It kinda fits with nature being both light and dark, like the Bendu, but the Jedi stand for with the light as guardians over the natural balance, holding the darkness back.

But I hope I'm wrong and @Darth Dingbat is right, though, about the ST exploring new ideas hopefully. I agree with your thoughts on the Bendu.

Also totally agree with you @snufkin I'm with everyone else on how sick I am of the moralizing and everything when it comes to this issue, it's totally like bible study class. lol Pink candy Jedi all the way, ppl, cause I'm sour.

jakkusun wrote:Also totally agree with you @snufkin I'm with everyone else on how sick I am of the moralizing and everything when it comes to this issue, it's totally like bible study class. lol Pink candy Jedi all the way, ppl, cause I'm sour.

It's the same reaction I have every time I read somebody arguing that "Rey has to do ____ because she's a role model," "Rey should be Luke's daughter to restore his lost hope in the Jedi/carry on the Skywalker name," "Kylo/Ben should suffer and be punished for being a bad person."



I think I *get* what George Lucas was reaching for because I also had the Methodist upbringing. Which sure, you're serious and not frivolous but you're also down with the downtrodden. The whole compassion speech sounds like stuff I got taught growing up. And even being a groovy Northern Californian, I can sorta understand the Jedi stuff borrowing from Buddhism and practicing non-attachment (though in truth I've known an awful lot of passive aggressive, anger repressing hippies who go through life pretending everything's groovy). But a lot of the earnest discussion on these topics just sound like really vapid Sunday School or Bible Study lessons, so maybe @Helix's joke about Ben finally snapping because he got packed off to Uncle Luke's Bible Camp instead of somebody actually listening to why he was unhappy is on the nose.

jakkusun wrote:

BenOrgana wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

@Darth Dingbat

But balance in Star Wars doesn't mean "grey" - Lucas's view was that balance only came in Return of the Jedi, when the Sith were destroyed but the Jedi remained. He said it was the Sith who threw the Force out of balance because the Dark Side is power-hungry and consumes everything, and the Jedi fell because they became too "grey" and got involved in a war.

Even in the new canon Bendu says he's "the one in the middle" but ends up being angry and destructive - that's the Dark Side.

@BenOrgana

Yeah I'm beginning to think this might be the case. In the Rebels season four trailer Kanan tells Ezra, "we are the balance," meaning that the Jedi are the balance, I think. In the TLJ trailer, the word balance comes when they show the Jedi order symbol.

I think maybe the Jedi are supposed the be the balance of the universe...holding back the darkness to make sure it never takes over the light. There will always be dark and light, but they have to be kept in balance by the light-wielding Jedi.

It's not like Jedi don't mess up...Ezra has used the darkside and is still a Jedi...he's just not supposed to do it. Luke told Leia in Aftermath that everyone has light and darkness within them, so no one is pure light or dark...but that doesn't mean ppl should use both sides of the force either, I guess. It kinda fits with nature being both light and dark, like the Bendu, but the Jedi stand for with the light as guardians over the natural balance, holding the darkness back.

But I hope I'm wrong and @Darth Dingbat is right, though, about the ST exploring new ideas hopefully. I agree with your thoughts on the Bendu.

Also totally agree with you @snufkin I'm with everyone else on how sick I am of the moralizing and everything when it comes to this issue, it's totally like bible study class. lol Pink candy Jedi all the way, ppl, cause I'm sour.

@jakkusun

Re: the bolded - that's a good point. Perhaps they're going with the Jedi Order being right all along, after all.

I was just thinking that with Rian's Robert Bly inspiration, there's got to be something new on the table, in the way they approach the problem of Darkness. Not radically new, but still something. Like many others, I thought going back to ancient history would mean there was some wisdom that had been lost over the millennia.

To clarify, I never meant something like, it's okay to be evil sometimes... which is how Pablo et al. seem to characterise the "Grey Jedi" discussion.

I was thinking more like, nothing in nature is evil unless you use it to evil purposes. Nature just is.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I find the Grey Jedi debate so tiresome that every time I see the word these days I feel like throwing my laptop out of the kitchen window.

That's why I only believe in the Candy Pink Jedi, who use the fabulous side of the Force. There's no light and dark, only things that are fabulous and things that are un-fabulous.

There's also a dress code.

@Darth Dingbat

Just dropping by to say: I ADORE THESE TWO LADIES ABOVE! ABFAB FOREVAH!

Darth Dingbat wrote:
@jakkusun

Re: the bolded - that's a good point. Perhaps they're going with the Jedi Order being right all along, after all.

I was just thinking that with Rian's Robert Bly inspiration, there's got to be something new on the table, in the way they approach the problem of Darkness. Not radically new, but still something. Like many others, I thought going back to ancient history would mean there was some wisdom that had been lost over the millennia.

To clarify, I never meant something like, it's okay to be evil sometimes... which is how Pablo et al. seem to characterise the "Grey Jedi" discussion.

I was thinking more like, nothing in nature is evil unless you use it to evil purposes. Nature just is.

@Darth Dingbat

They could maybe approach the "Shadow" from a new angle but without fundamentally changing the core conflict. There's a really good book called The Journey of Luke Skywalker which examines the OT from a Jungian point of view, and talks about the way Luke learns to accept and master his Shadow, so it's always been part of Star Wars.

They even made it explicit in The Clone Wars, the last thing Lucas worked on. It's worth watching - Yoda goes on a Force trial and has to literally confront his Shadow. He tries to suppress and deny it but it doesn't work, and realises he has to accept that it is a part of him to gain mastery over it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ-zZe2HaI0

@Darth Dingbat don't worry I knew that was what you meant yeah, I hope they specifically explore how emotions are like that because I think emotions are a part of natural things like that--they aren't good or bad, they just exist, but can be used for good or evil.

@BenOrgana hmm yeah it's true a lot of those kinds of understanding the shadow storylines already seem to exist. I like to be critical of the Jedi but they might already be lot more Jungian than I give them credit.

So yeah I agree with both of you... there really might be a good chance of the Jedi being right all along, but hopefully it's through discovering that the original ancient Jedi teachings were even wiser than what we have seen before, specifically focusing on the incorporation of the shadow in a new way.

@snufkin yeah religion definitely isn't all bad. I think my own strict religious upbringing is what makes me so bitter. Choosing not to accept all the dogma shoved down my throat since I was a child is viewed as selfish, entitled, foolish, etc....by not agreeing with everything the "one true pure religion" dictated for me, I'm "cherry picking" morality and trying to hide from the consequences and guilt for "sinning."

Seeing anything similar to that kind of attitude in fandom around the Jedi can be frustrating, but I do need to remember not everyone has the same experiences with religion and that there is still a lot of good in what Lucas intended with the the Jedi and everything.

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

I can't bring myself to believe that Pablo would make fun of the Gray Jedi idea if he knew the ST were heading in that direction. People tend not to explicitly insult their bosses' plans on Twitter when they know thousands of people are monitoring what they say. :/

So now my theory is that Kylo and Rey will just become classic Lightside jedi by the end of the trilogy, rather than some third way between Dark and Light.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:

ZioRen wrote:I can't tell if Pablo is harping on this because they're going a little in that direction in TLJ and he hates it, or if it's because they're not. He's been quite passive aggressive about the ST before.

@ZioRen

From what I can see on Twitter people keep badgering him about it and he's fed up of it. I seriously doubt the ST is headed in that direction because Pablo made clear he and the rest of the Lucasfilm story group worked closely with Rian Johnson for TLJ. The other week, Pablo tweeted a picture of him and Rian hugging affectionately at SWCE because someone asked how he got along with RJ.

I know people are sick to death of the Grey Jedi thing either way so I won't harp on too much about it, but I'm 99.9% sure the ST will not be introducing such a thing. You only have to listen to George Lucas' idea of the force and the Jedi and Sith, ditto Dave Filoni, Pablo and many other Lucasfilm employees to know why they dislike the Grey Jedi thing so much.

@Mrs Ben Solo

But the thing is, I originally thought the whole debacle was about the term being silly and paradoxical. But the more I read people's angry comments about this - including Pablo's - it seems like a moral issue. As if seeking balance itself were seen as morally compromised and cowardly, regardless of the term used.

Which I find a bit odd because there's obviously a new emphasis on balance in canon sources - and in the TLJ trailer itself! And yet speculating about such a balance seems to be seen as wrong.

@Darth Dingbat

I think Balance might not mean a state of being in between where Kylo and Rey are in TFA. Balance might mean Rey bringing Kylo over to her side (the Light). Like how ROTJ ended with Luke bringing Vader back to the light, and the movie treated it as balance achieved simply because there were no more Dark side Force users left standing.

We'll just have to see what they have in store, but I think that it's doubtful at this point that Balance means what we originally thought it meant.

jakkusun wrote:
Yeah I'm beginning to think this might be the case. In the Rebels season four trailer Kanan tells Ezra, "we are the balance," meaning that the Jedi are the balance, I think. In the TLJ trailer, the word balance comes when they show the Jedi order symbol.

@jakkusun

As many times as I've seen this trailer, that never registered for me before.

Makes me wonder what else I missed. Off to watch again!

I'm thinking that Rey will end up as an all new and improved Jedi. What exactly that will mean, I don't know. I'm less sure about romantic Reylo because I don't see how attachments can ever reconcile with Jedi philosophy. Fear of loss is what leads to fear, anger and hate. The real life equivalency (sort of) would be the debate around allowing Catholic Priests to marry. Also, when I think of Kylo as reverse Anakin, that kinda implies to me that he must be selfless, even if he loves Rey, not selfish like Anakin was with Padme. To me, that means letting her go/supporting her to achieve her goals. I know we always say, well, Rey wants love and a family. Does she, though? We don't know what she wants. Maybe the journey for her is letting go of the past and her attachment to it. If Rey ended the ST in a new Jedi Academy type situation surrounded by younglings and other padawans, couldn't that be the belonging she seeks?

Look guys, I'm still a romantic Reylo shipper and I'd love to see it happen, I'm just wondering if it's made me blinkered as to where the ST might actually be headed.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I find the Grey Jedi debate so tiresome that every time I see the word these days I feel like throwing my laptop out of the kitchen window.

That's why I only believe in the Candy Pink Jedi, who use the fabulous side of the Force. There's no light and dark, only things that are fabulous and things that are un-fabulous.

There's also a dress code.

@Darth Dingbat

Got cha.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I'm thinking that Rey will end up as an all new and improved Jedi. What exactly that will mean, I don't know. I'm less sure about romantic Reylo because I don't see how attachments can ever reconcile with Jedi philosophy. Fear of loss is what leads to fear, anger and hate. The real life equivalency (sort of) would be the debate around allowing Catholic Priests to marry. Also, when I think of Kylo as reverse Anakin, that kinda implies to me that he must be selfless, even if he loves Rey, not selfish like Anakin was with Padme. To me, that means letting her go/supporting her to achieve her goals. I know we always say, well, Rey wants love and a family. Does she, though? We don't know what she wants. Maybe the journey for her is letting go of the past and her attachment to it. If Rey ended the ST in a new Jedi Academy type situation surrounded by younglings and other padawans, couldn't that be the belonging she seeks?

Look guys, I'm still a romantic Reylo shipper and I'd love to see it happen, I'm just wondering if it's made me blinkered as to where the ST might actually be headed.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I understand your concern but I think we should all relax. I'm telling you this as a person who doesn't really care about romantic Reylo. I'm more interested in the dynamics of their relationship and I don't care about romance at all. Narratively, Kylo and Rey's relationship was built over several romantic structures.

1. Class difference, mandatory in fictional romances dating back from Ancient Greek theater and poetry; Kylo is a royalty in-universe from two sides - he's the son of a literal princess AND he's a Skywalker. In-universe, Skywalkers are "myths", "legends", almost deities. Kylo is the legacy of Anakin, the Chosen One born of a virgin mother. Meanwhile, Rey is depicted as poor, humble and you could even argue that she looks like a homeless person - no family, scavenging trash for a living, being paid in food only and living in an old AT-AT.

2. Unique understanding of each other's feelings. Kylo and Rey are the only ones who know each other's deepest fears and secrets. Kylo knows Rey's dreams and she knows his biggest fear. They share something unique, something that only them can see.

3. Physical intensity. Kylo bridal carries Rey, Kylo almost licks her neck in the interrogation, they constantly look at each other's eyes, they hold each other in the duel... They're the only two characters in the movie who share this kind of physical intimacy.

So... even if romantic Reylo never happens (which is a possibility), their dynamic is inherently romantic. I suggest Roland Barthes' The Preparation of the Novel. He analyzes these three romantic tropes over the course of History and how they're ALWAYS present in love stories.

That said, it doesn't mean that we're right about everything. We can't predict future plot points, we can only analyze what is at hand. And it's obvious that there's more to the ST than Kylo and Rey being romantically involved.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I'm thinking that Rey will end up as an all new and improved Jedi. What exactly that will mean, I don't know. I'm less sure about romantic Reylo because I don't see how attachments can ever reconcile with Jedi philosophy. Fear of loss is what leads to fear, anger and hate. The real life equivalency (sort of) would be the debate around allowing Catholic Priests to marry. Also, when I think of Kylo as reverse Anakin, that kinda implies to me that he must be selfless, even if he loves Rey, not selfish like Anakin was with Padme. To me, that means letting her go/supporting her to achieve her goals. I know we always say, well, Rey wants love and a family. Does she, though? We don't know what she wants. Maybe the journey for her is letting go of the past and her attachment to it. If Rey ended the ST in a new Jedi Academy type situation surrounded by younglings and other padawans, couldn't that be the belonging she seeks?

Look guys, I'm still a romantic Reylo shipper and I'd love to see it happen, I'm just wondering if it's made me blinkered as to where the ST might actually be headed.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I subscribe to this view as well especially after reading some of the recent novels.

I feel like the jedi (or any force user for that matter) have a tricky destiny....for one thing, they have to deal with immense powers and the responsibility that goes with them....and on the other, you have unsavory elements keen to exploit said powers (hence the stories of young force users, padawans and even jedi masters being kidnapped by bounty hunters and crime bosses...if I remember correctly, a captured jedi master was worth 4 million credits during the clone wars)...now throw love and family into the mix....this gives the bad guys more leverage to make a force user obey them (a simple example is when Anakin opened a holocron for Cad Bane when he almost killed Ahsoka in TCW...so instead of love and attachment being a source of strength, it will end up being the cause of weakness and pain. So this brings up the question- would you choose fleeting happiness if it meant that the galaxy could burn for your momentary joy (Anakin's turn to Vader being the best example)?

I also agree with you about what constitutes belonging...a recent canon children's novel tells us of a force sensitive boy (as differentiated from a force user) who is around Rey's age and contemporary joining the resistance ... he is an orphan but he literally finds family and belonging in the resistance...sometimes family doesn't mean a spouse and kids...it could be something as simple as finding ones place in the galaxy and being happy.

But that being said, I am hopeful for reylo because DR did say that Rey wont be a jedi....maybe Rey decides to choose getting married and having a family over becoming a jedi? I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, especially if Luke survives episode 9...maybe he'll just train a new batch of students?

Piper Maru wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I'm thinking that Rey will end up as an all new and improved Jedi. What exactly that will mean, I don't know. I'm less sure about romantic Reylo because I don't see how attachments can ever reconcile with Jedi philosophy. Fear of loss is what leads to fear, anger and hate. The real life equivalency (sort of) would be the debate around allowing Catholic Priests to marry. Also, when I think of Kylo as reverse Anakin, that kinda implies to me that he must be selfless, even if he loves Rey, not selfish like Anakin was with Padme. To me, that means letting her go/supporting her to achieve her goals. I know we always say, well, Rey wants love and a family. Does she, though? We don't know what she wants. Maybe the journey for her is letting go of the past and her attachment to it. If Rey ended the ST in a new Jedi Academy type situation surrounded by younglings and other padawans, couldn't that be the belonging she seeks?

Look guys, I'm still a romantic Reylo shipper and I'd love to see it happen, I'm just wondering if it's made me blinkered as to where the ST might actually be headed.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I understand your concern but I think we should all relax. I'm telling you this as a person who doesn't really care about romantic Reylo. I'm more interested in the dynamics of their relationship and I don't care about romance at all. Narratively, Kylo and Rey's relationship was built over several romantic structures.

1. Class difference, mandatory in fictional romances dating back from Ancient Greek theater and poetry; Kylo is a royalty in-universe from two sides - he's the son of a literal princess AND he's a Skywalker. In-universe, Skywalkers are "myths", "legends", almost deities. Kylo is the legacy of Anakin, the Chosen One born of a virgin mother. Meanwhile, Rey is depicted as poor, humble and you could even argue that she looks like a homeless person - no family, scavenging trash for a living, being paid in food only and living in an old AT-AT.

2. Unique understanding of each other's feelings. Kylo and Rey are the only ones who know each other's deepest fears and secrets. Kylo knows Rey's dreams and she knows his biggest fear. They share something unique, something that only them can see.

3. Physical intensity. Kylo bridal carries Rey, Kylo almost licks her neck in the interrogation, they constantly look at each other's eyes, they hold each other in the duel... They're the only two characters in the movie who share this kind of physical intimacy.

So... even if romantic Reylo never happens (which is a possibility), their dynamic is inherently romantic. I suggest Roland Barthes' The Preparation of the Novel. He analyzes these three romantic tropes over the course of History and how they're ALWAYS present in love stories.

That said, it doesn't mean that we're right about everything. We can't predict future plot points, we can only analyze what is at hand. And it's obvious that there's more to the ST than Kylo and Rey being romantically involved.

@Piper Maru

Thank you, you do make some great points.

I'm not really stressed out about romantic Reylo not happening. We've discussed it so much from so many different angles, I can see quite a few scenarios I'd be o.k with and not all of them include reciprocated romantic love between them. When I read the ST discourse in other places, many people seem to want Rey to end up as a Jedi. I guess that's part of the reason there so much anti-Reylo sentiment because it's hard to see how romantic love/attachments could ever be compatible with being a Jedi, new and improved or not!

panki wrote:

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I'm thinking that Rey will end up as an all new and improved Jedi. What exactly that will mean, I don't know. I'm less sure about romantic Reylo because I don't see how attachments can ever reconcile with Jedi philosophy. Fear of loss is what leads to fear, anger and hate. The real life equivalency (sort of) would be the debate around allowing Catholic Priests to marry. Also, when I think of Kylo as reverse Anakin, that kinda implies to me that he must be selfless, even if he loves Rey, not selfish like Anakin was with Padme. To me, that means letting her go/supporting her to achieve her goals. I know we always say, well, Rey wants love and a family. Does she, though? We don't know what she wants. Maybe the journey for her is letting go of the past and her attachment to it. If Rey ended the ST in a new Jedi Academy type situation surrounded by younglings and other padawans, couldn't that be the belonging she seeks?

Look guys, I'm still a romantic Reylo shipper and I'd love to see it happen, I'm just wondering if it's made me blinkered as to where the ST might actually be headed.

@Mrs Ben Solo

I subscribe to this view as well especially after reading some of the recent novels.

I feel like the jedi (or any force user for that matter) have a tricky destiny....for one thing, they have to deal with immense powers and the responsibility that goes with them....and on the other, you have unsavory elements keen to exploit said powers (hence the stories of young force users, padawans and even jedi masters being kidnapped by bounty hunters and crime bosses)...now throw love and family into the mix....this gives the bad guys more leverage to make a force user obey them (a simple example is when Anakin opened a holocron for Cad Bane when he almost killed Ahsoka in TCW...so instead of love and attachment being a source of strength, it will end up being the cause of weakness and pain. So this brings up the question- would you choose fleeting happiness if it meant that the galaxy could burn for your momentary joy (Anakin's turn to Vader being the best example)?

I also agree with you about what constitutes belonging...a recent canon children's novel tells us of a force sensitive boy (as differentiated from a force user) who is around Rey's age and contemporary joining the resistance ... he is an orphan but he literally finds family and belonging in the resistance...sometimes family doesn't mean a spouse and kids...it could be something as simple as finding ones place in the galaxy and being happy.

But that being said, I am hopeful for reylo because DR did say that Rey wont be a jedi....maybe Rey decides to choose getting married and having a family over becoming a jedi? I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, especially if Luke survives episode 9...maybe he'll just train a new batch of students?

@panki

Thank you, @panki I always appreciate your input because you have such a wide perspective r.e the whole Star Wars galaxy.

It could be that Rey chooses love and her and Kylo do their own thing. I'm not sure it will go that way though because she is the main protagonist and if they're setting up a new Jedi Order in the ST, I would expect her to be at the forefront of it. I could see Kylo being redeemed and going off to do his own thing at the end. That way you keep the option open for him to find love and have a family somewhere down the road. As Kylo's redemption is number one on my list of stuff I want to see in the ST (and him living and finding some measure of peace) I'd probably be satisfied with that.

I honestly think Maz is referring to Rey's role in the Force when she talks about belonging. I've never thought about marriage and babies and happily ever afters.

I mentioned in the other topic, but I'm reading Rey's Survival Guide and she blindly believes that her people (as she calls them) are all that she has in life. She has no other aspirations or dreams. When she finds Anakin's lightsaber her whole life changes because she is forced to face a new challenge. This is the new belonging (IMO), and she finds it through the Force with the help of Han, Finn and Kylo. Each one helps her during her journey -- Han for taking her to Takodana, Finn for going back for her and Kylo for forcing her to use her powers.

Looks like we're seesawing once again regarding the Jedi, Grey Jedi, New Jedi topic, and honestly, I'm not really a fan of the Jedi after PT, and I vehemently agree with Luke. They gotta end. Now the New Jedi I am interested in. It's not gonna be grey, black or white, but it'll be new and more enlightened, and will outshadow the previous ideals of PT Jedi. 

Not really concrete evidence, but a good point someone brought up sometime ago. Rian Johnson wrote and directed this movie. Same guy who made Brothers Bloom, a movie about conmen brothers, with the protagonist being a conman who wants to stop it all and live a normal life. and Looper. A movie about timetraveling bounty hunter/killer types, with the protagonist wanting to stop and end the system of timetraveling bounty killer/hunter types.

Now when Rian makes Luke say the Jedi gotta end, then I think that's exactly what's gonna happen. 

I can't see Rey accepting the isolated lifestyle of PT Jedi with no attachments and love. Rey has been alone for a long time and CRAVES belonging and love. She wants it so much it just seems cruel for them to turn her into this monkish character just because the Jedi bring balance. And as Daisy herself said that Rey won't be a Jedi. 

Maybe there will be New Jedi by the end of IX and maybe they won't be celebate and asetic monks, but as we still have no idea what they could possibly be, I find it hard to imagine Rey being part of their congregation for now.

I'm sure Daisy Ridley said she didn't know if Rey was a Jedi or not. That isn't exactly ruling it out, it's just a stock evasive answer, IMO. It's time for the Jedi to end can't be as straightforward as the Jedi actually ending. There is far too much reverence for George Lucas' vision at Lucasfilm for them to tear down and destroy what he created with the Jedi and the force. Rian Johnson will doubtless explore a wider interpretation of the force but the way Star Wars works kinda requires the main protagonists to nail their colours to a mast at some point.