Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

Damaged at 5 is damaged at 15 is damaged at 23. Virgin!Kylo lives.

He is a Solo, for that reason alone, not a virgin.

I think I stated before that my opinion on this matter would be determined by the age he went fully dark. Had he turned at 15, I'd say he was an honest to goodness virgin, as in the never been kissed type.

Now that this new information has come out, I would say he's definitely been kissed. Has he ever gone further than that? It's possible - I think no matter what the scenario is, he has never been in love and whatever little physical contact he's had in the past left him with no satisfaction or was entirely awkward. So my vote stands - he's dabbled here and there.

Everyone in Star Wars is a virgin, unless they are a dad or a smooth talker like Han and Poe. Lol

IoJovi wrote:I think I stated before that my opinion on this matter would be determined by the age he went fully dark.  Had he turned at 15, I'd say he was an honest to goodness virgin, as in the never been kissed type.  

Now that this new information has come out, I would say he's definitely been kissed.  Has he ever gone further than that?  It's possible - I think no matter what the scenario is, he has never been in love and whatever little physical contact he's had in the past left him with no satisfaction or was entirely awkward.  So my vote stands - he's dabbled here and there.  

@IoJovi

Eh, what does going fully dark mean? Just performing a dark act that shows the world you are dark or being dark without anyone knowing? Ben/Kylo was poisoned by Snoke since early years. It only became apparent to everyone after Luke's Jedi order dream got destroyed. But otherwise, he was like that for a long time.

Guest wrote:surprised to see many of you think Kylo Ren is a virgin....he is not...he is a man, not a boy!


stop projecting lol

@""

Why projecting?
Most of us aren't kids here, many have kids ourselves and, I can assure you that we don't find his being a virigin especially sexy, not me at least, but he is portrayed in a way that suggests he is a virgin, which has nothing to do with being a boy or a man but with his unnatural life experiences.

SanghaRen wrote:@SoloSideCousin

When I hear pilot with girls swirling around, I think Top Gun. Don't ask, it's the first thing that comes to my mind I certainly don't mean to compare SW to Top Gun.

I never saw SW as having the same rules as our world so I would not transfer the peer pressure in our military to SW. It just clashes with my view of the Galaxy being far, far away. All of a sudden I am back to Earth with its (sorry to say) idiotic social rules and pressures. For all we know in this Galaxy they might demand that their men have no relationships of any sort.

Kylo already has enough to deal with his conflict light side/dark side, the weight of the legacy and the lack of support from his legendary parents. Do we want to add sexual issues? I don't know how to explain it but to me it reduces a bit the epic of the story. It's just not Star Wars to me anymore.

Maybe I am cranky today and it's not my favorite topic so sorry if I sound off.

We shouldn't forget that everything happened...



Guys, far far away and A LONG TIME AGO, that's where and when everything happened, so their rules and views were different. Theirs was a mythical and also mystical world, especially for people like Vader, Luke or Kylo. Kylo is a space Knight Templar and we should wonder why they make him look like a celibate warrior monk and fight with a sword that looks so old-fashioned even for his world, it looks medieveal, like his clothes, like the guy himself. In that interrogation scene there are things happening at two levels, the apparently real one, what they really mention and then also what they feel underneath, and surprisingly enough, in front of a more than probable virgin girl he is the one most vulnerable and shaken, the one who shivers and shakes when she gets to him and invades his mind. It's as if she touched him and he freaked out. He was scared because she saw his most hidden secret and weakness but also because intimacy scares him. He craves it as much as it frightens him. In the scene where she entered his mind, when he breaks contact, she looks as if she has just had sex, she really does.



And she looks surprised, but he looks really scared.



He looks as if he was horrified for what he was feeling or what he was about to do, just like a Templar about to fall, to sin.

Why making him look like a celibate warrior monk in galaxy far far away, a long time ago?

Because he is like one, he doesn't behave like a normal thirty-year-old guy in our modern world. He has a blind faith in the Force, he is mystical and "religious", which would explain why he doesn't relate to girls and people in general in a normal way. Luke is a jedi, and jedis where monkish too, they didn't have kids or wives and as long as we know, Luke never had a family;in canon universe, we don't see him having relationships with women. So Kylo didn't have many chances to lead a normal life,not with Snoke manipulating him since childhood and not later in a monkish environment with Luke.

As we can deduce from his reaction to Rey, Snoke had reasons to keep him away from females because he gets attached fiercely and that would make Snoke lose his hold on him. The guy pursued the girl while bleeding out and after killing his own father, he betrayed Snoke offering to train her, he offered to show her the ways of the force himself and forgot about Snoke and the DS. Snoke was right to keep him away from intimacy.

@Reynak Or maybe he's scared because of what she could see in his mind? if he's ashamed of something in particular, thought nobody knew. You never know. He didn't expect that she could break in so to speak let alone see one of his most or the most intimate fear.

vaderito wrote:@Reynak Or maybe he's scared because of what she could see in his mind? if he's ashamed of something in particular, thought nobody knew. You never know. He didn't expect that she could break in so to speak let alone see one of his most or the most intimate fear.

@vaderito

Sure, I agree he was scared of that, but many of us have always thought there was a second reading of the scene, the subtext, and there I think there's this other meaning. There seems to be something else going on in the subtext without disregarding what is obviously there. I agree with what you say but I think more is "suggested" there, that's why the scene feels erotic when nothing remotely sexual is happening. That's why some find the scene rapey, because it is sexually charged but in its subtext, not in what is actually going on. Nobody would say entering someone's mind is rapey if they hadn't picked up on the sensual subtext, IMO, of course. Nothing is set on stone.

Interrogation Kylo, " I can take whatever I want...."  not a virgin.
Cliffside Kylo, "You need a teacher!" virgin. 
Jealous Kylo kicking finn's a** "traitor!" not a virgin
Bridal carry Kylo "We have what we need" virgin.

vaderito wrote:

IoJovi wrote:I think I stated before that my opinion on this matter would be determined by the age he went fully dark.  Had he turned at 15, I'd say he was an honest to goodness virgin, as in the never been kissed type.  

Now that this new information has come out, I would say he's definitely been kissed.  Has he ever gone further than that?  It's possible - I think no matter what the scenario is, he has never been in love and whatever little physical contact he's had in the past left him with no satisfaction or was entirely awkward.  So my vote stands - he's dabbled here and there.  

@IoJovi

Eh, what does going fully dark mean? Just performing a dark act that shows the world you are dark or being dark without anyone knowing? Ben/Kylo was poisoned by Snoke since early years. It only became apparent to everyone after Luke's Jedi order dream got destroyed. But otherwise, he was like that for a long time.

@vaderito

I mean went onboard with Snoke and betrayed his family. I can imagine he hasn't been alright for a long time prior to that. I completely understand what you are saying - it may have been a shock to those in his family when he turned. However, I'm sure it wasn't a shock to Ben, and he'd been feeling a certain way a long time. It didn't happen over night.

That said, I'm sure there were girls around in his teenage years that would have tried either successfully or unsuccessfully to get with him. Some may have succeeded, but I doubt it was satisfying at all for young Ben.

panki wrote:I just can't imagine Kylo wanting to be physically intimate with anybody....he had Snoke in his head as a kid telling him he should be Vader II....then he gets sent off to Uncle Luke, possibly at the age of 8-10.....god knows what other weird stuff happened to him...I can't imagine getting laid being a priority for him....I mean, who is going to be intimate with anyone knowing an evil old creeper is watching and sensing all one's thoughts and emotions??!!?!?!?     I won't be surprised if Kylo remained chaste just for that reason!

At the most I can imagine that he had some childhood crush/first love (the kind you kiss but not much else) who might have met a tragic end.....which would have spurred him to go after Snoke.....

Regarding the bolded: Oh man ... I hadn't even thought of that possibility.  I had considered Snoke implanting all kinds of false and disgusting memories in his mind, which could really make him loathe himself or be disgusted and distrustful of himself ... but I had never had thought of the voyeur option ... Oh gawd, just the thought of the Creeper watching makes me sick.  Actually sick. Even in RL the worst predators can't get into your head like that. .
@panki

-

Rey will be his 'first', for sure.

Can I vote Virgin AND Dabbled? As a teenage prince I reckon he had a few fumbled encounters with the odd slave girl or serving wench about the place, but nothing since the dark side came along. The vibe I get is that Rey is the first girl he's ever met who he both desires AND looks up to. That's why he always ends up so flustered and sweaty in her presence, he literally does not know how to handle his feelings toward her. He certainly ends up making sheep's eyes at her in most of their scenes!

IoJovi wrote:I think I stated before that my opinion on this matter would be determined by the age he went fully dark. Had he turned at 15, I'd say he was an honest to goodness virgin, as in the never been kissed type.

Now that this new information has come out, I would say he's definitely been kissed. Has he ever gone further than that? It's possible - I think no matter what the scenario is, he has never been in love and whatever little physical contact he's had in the past left him with no satisfaction or was entirely awkward. So my vote stands - he's dabbled here and there.

See he could be sexually experienced because it fits I with the obvious sexualisation of the force and his "you need a teacher, I could show you the ways of the force" he is experienced in the force, he awakens the darkness in her in 2 scenes and again the sexual subtext would indicate that he also has sexual experience
@IoJovi

vaderito wrote:@Reynak Or maybe he's scared because of what she could see in his mind? if he's ashamed of something in particular, thought nobody knew. You never know. He didn't expect that she could break in so to speak let alone see one of his most or the most intimate fear.

@vaderito

I'm off the opinion that she seducing him in that moment. He doesn't even notice her go in his mind until it's too late

Something is happening when the tables turn for sure, it's not about the map at all there. He is letting her do something.

There's something very suspect about how he hits a wall with the mind probe, smirks, notices it awaken something in her then he decides to do it (push) again when it cuts to a sexually suggestive shot. Why do that again ren if it's not working?

Gemini wrote:  

I'm off the opinion that she seducing him in that moment. He doesn't even notice her go in his mind until it's too late

Something is happening when the tables turn for sure m, it's not about the map. He is letting her do something.

@Gemini

Oh you are right. It totally isn't about the map. It was never about the map ever since he'd heard about the girl. He wanted to be seduced.

Totally being seduced physically and emotionally here:



The direction of the camera movement  even suggests she is doing simething to him and not the other way around here

Gemini wrote:Totally being seduced physically and emotionally here:

@Gemini

And on the Force level. FS feel it physically, emotionally and through the Force. Unlike non-FS. Inappropriate use of the Force.

Gemini wrote:

I'm off the opinion that she seducing him in that moment. He doesn't even notice her go in his mind until it's too late

Something is happening when the tables turn for sure, it's not about the map at all there. He is letting her do something.

There's something very suspect about how he hits a wall with the mind probe, smirks, notices it awaken something in her then he decides to do it (push) again when it cuts to a sexually suggestive shot. Why do that again ren if it's not working?

@Gemini

I completely agree with the bold. There is something in that scene, especially in the subtle power shift between them, that was conveyed in the manner of sensuality/seduction.

As an aside, I wanted to thank you for pointing out the camera technique that is used when Rey first awakens in the interrogation room and the camera comes up from her feet along her body, all the way up to her face. I rewatched TFA recently and it seems clear that this is from Ren's point of view, as he is crouching near her. He is taking her in. He already looked her up and down when they came face to face in Takodana. Why do this if there wasn't meant to be some kind of sexual dynamic between them? Not so counsinly, imo. XD

I like your extrapolation about the duel having sexual energy and that his offer to teach her translates into his having something to teach, i.e., sexual experience. It's a nice way to look at it, and it does feel like there is some double talk in a lot of Rey and Ren's communication - not necessarily sexual, but to me there are two conversations going on at the same time whenever they are speaking: the overtly said and the underlying meaning. "You need a teacher, I can show you the ways of the Force" = I am fascinated by you, let's leave here together. Don't leave my side, I will show you everything.

As for the topic at hand:
I also think that Ren has some sexual experience. It just strikes me as unlikely that he would be a virgin as it is that he would be some sex fiend with a lover in every spaceport. I don't like extremes, idk.

All of this to say, Ren could be a virgin in terms of intimacy/what is tritely called "lovemaking" but not at all in terms of sexual experience. The two aren't necessarily the same thing. The dark side is all about giving in to your baser/dark impulses as a shortcut to harnessing power. Being sexual without giving it any meaning, seeing your partner as merely a sexual object, a vessel for your own pleasure, can be exactly that. It doesn't fit in with the idea of a Disney Prince, and Kylo Ren is bad enough with what he has done on screen, so I get why a lot of fans would want to leave that possible side of Ren unexplored and just think of him as a virgin.

Gemini wrote:Totally being seduced physically and emotionally here:



The direction of the camera movement  even suggests she is doing simething to him and not the other way around here

@Gemini

Yes re: the meaning of the panning camera!

Gemini wrote:

vaderito wrote:@Reynak Or maybe he's scared because of what she could see in his mind? if he's ashamed of something in particular, thought nobody knew. You never know. He didn't expect that she could break in so to speak let alone see one of his most or the most intimate fear.

@vaderito

I'm off the opinion that she seducing him in that moment. He doesn't even notice her go in his mind until it's too late

Something is happening when the tables turn for sure, it's not about the map at all there. He is letting her do something.

There's something very suspect about how he hits a wall with the mind probe, smirks, notices it awaken something in her then he decides to do it again when it cuts to a sexually suggestive shot. Why do that again ren if it's not working?

@Gemini

Exactly, that's exactly what it looks like. If we didn't know they were talking about a map and the room was different, without all those torture objects around them the subtext would come forward and we would witness a game of seduction and he loses. He said to Snoke he wouldn't be seduced but he let his barriers down, he let Rey in, as you said. I know he is horrified because Rey discovered his worst fear and threw at his face but I have the impression that he is also scared because he's been seduced by her. He owned him and he knows it, that's why she runs away like that.

I agree that he let her in because she managed to throw him out of her mind when he was inside and he managed to break their connection when he freaked out, so if he didn't stop her before, is because for some reason he liked that intimacy, having that deep connection with her even though it meant she was invading his mind. These two always have something else going on behind appearances (search for the map, interrogation,duel, offer to turn into teacher apprentice...), there's a war going on around them and they don't care enough, the snowy planet crumbles below their feet and they don't seem to notice.

I think the map and the droid aren't as important to any of them as the other person they have just discovered but probably seen or dreamt of before in some fashion, whether they realised this or not. Yes, he was seduced but I don't think she left unscathed. So much curiosity on her face, that fascination in her face when Han told her the story of a boy who "destroyed it all", she can't acknowledge her feelings because he is an enemy and later a patricide,he also hurts Finn,but she is attracted to him. There are no rules over attraction, either you feel it or you don't and Rey feels attracted to Kylo but not to Finn, not in a sexual and potentially romantic way. It's up to her to reject these feelings as if she never felt them but she was affected by him, that's a fact, if her expression is an indication.

Darth Rowan wrote:

Gemini wrote:

I'm off the opinion that she seducing him in that moment. He doesn't even notice her go in his mind until it's too late

Something is happening when the tables turn for sure, it's not about the map at all there. He is letting her do something.

There's something very suspect about how he hits a wall with the mind probe, smirks, notices it awaken something in her then he decides to do it (push) again when it cuts to a sexually suggestive shot. Why do that again ren if it's not working?

@Gemini

I completely agree with the bold. There is something in that scene, especially in the subtle power shift between them, that was conveyed in the manner of sensuality/seduction.

As an aside, I wanted to thank you for pointing out the camera technique that is used when Rey first awakens in the interrogation room and the camera comes up from her feet along her body, all the way up to her face. I rewatched TFA recently and it seems clear that this is from Ren's point of view, as he is crouching near her. He is taking her in. He already looked her up and down when they came face to face in Takodana. Why do this if there wasn't meant to be some kind of sexual dynamic between them? Not so counsinly, imo. XD

I like your extrapolation about the duel having sexual energy and that his offer to teach her translates into his having something to teach, i.e., sexual experience. It's a nice way to look at it, and it does feel like there is some double talk in a lot of Rey and Ren's communication - not necessarily sexual, but to me there are two conversations going on at the same time whenever they are speaking: the overtly said and the underlying meaning. "You need a teacher, I can show you the ways of the Force" = I am fascinated by you, let's leave here together. Don't leave my side, I will show you everything.

As for the topic at hand:
I also think that Ren has some sexual experience. It just strikes me as unlikely that he would be a virgin as it is that he would be some sex fiend with a lover in every spaceport. I don't like extremes, idk.

All of this to say, Ren could be a virgin in terms of intimacy/what is tritely called "lovemaking" but not at all in terms of sexual experience. The two aren't necessarily the same thing. The dark side is all about giving in to your baser/dark impulses as a shortcut to harnessing power. Being sexual without giving it any meaning, seeing your partner as merely a sexual object, a vessel for your own pleasure, can be exactly that. It doesn't fit in with the idea of a Disney Prince, and Kylo Ren is bad enough with what he has done on screen, so I get why a lot of fans would want to leave that possible side of Ren unexplored and just think of him as a virgin.  

@Darth Rowan


The bolded part is why I think he is a virgin or at least celibate, because Kylo/Ben feels far too much, so much he has to cover his face so that nobody can see his feelings exposed all over his too sensitive face. He can't remain unattached and emotionally unaffected, that's why I can't see him sharing his body with anyone for the sake of mere pleasure. They guy would get emotionally attached to anyone who caressed him, even if he was given rough sex or impersonal one he'd be affected because he gets nothing from anyone,no human touch at all. And he also avoids it, those clothes are screaming celibate loud and clear (IMHO, of course). Something must have happened to him to feel like that but I think the guy we saw in the movie can't take human contact. He even flinches when his father approaches him and tries to touch him, so I can't see him sharing his body with anybody, I bet he doesn't let people see him undressed. He freaked out when Hux saw his face so I can't imagine how he would be able to undress and let anyone touch him.

Was he like this all the time? I don't know, but it makes no matter because what matters is who he is now and by the time the events in TFA happen he can't stand intimacy for some reason, some past experience, perhaps Snoke torturing him or invading his mind with horrible images that made him fear all types of intimacy, both physical and emotional. He wouldn't be so emotionally vulnerable if he wasn't so isolated and this includes sex with other people. This is the kind of guy who perhaps would be able to have cybersex but wouldn't manage to expose himself having real intercourse with real people. His clothes and his body language, as well as the mention of seduction as a synonym for falling, failing,being defeated, are the reasons for me to believe he is celibate and perhaps even a virgin. Again, this is just an impression I, like some other viewers, have,which doesn't mean you can't be right.

Reynak wrote:
Was he like this all the time? I don't know, but it makes no matter because what matters is who he is now and by the time the events in TFA happen he can't stand intimacy for some reason, some past experience, perhaps Snoke torturing him or invading his mind with horrible images that made him fear all types of intimacy, both physical and emotional. He wouldn't be so emotionally vulnerable if he wasn't so isolated and this includes sex with other people. This is the kind of guy who perhaps would be able to have cybersex but wouldn't manage to expose himself having real intercourse with real people. His clothes and his body language, as well as the mention of seduction as a synonym for falling, failing,being defeated, are the reasons for me to believe he is celibate and perhaps even a virgin. Again, this is just an impression I, like some other viewers, have,which doesn't mean you can't be right.

@Reynak

I can totally see Ren choosing to be celibate these days. Why not? But the thought of him being a virgin just seems unlikely to me for reasons I've shared before. And I agree that Ren probably has trouble with intimacy and physical touch, but again intimacy =//= sex, and you don't need to remove clothing (even mask...) to have sex. Importantly, he didn't seem to have any trouble getting all up in Rey's face, though I'm glad that they removed his touching her face in the interrogation scene, which is what appears in the novelization. If there is going to be touching between them it should be saved for a more meaningful moment, imo.

The point that you make in your final paragraph I agree with 100%. We just don't know, and at this point it's a matter of our own impressions and how each of us view the character. There's no way to be right or wrong on this one, at least not until we find out in the film or novelizations, and I suspect we'll never really know, this being Star Wars. XD

@Reynak

I know he is horrified because Rey discovered his worst fear and threw at his face but I have the impression that he is also scared because he's been seduced by her.

He's horrified because he likes it, likes her and wants to experience it again. same thing that horrifies her - she likes him, she likes what's happening between them and that horrifies her. Hence scarring his face. Which won't solve anything.

He let go of horror when she picked up the saber. This is his face when she entered his mind:



And this is the famous Marry Me face:



From Horrified to Marry Me. Character development. First time, he was denying that he wants it. second time he was, like, oh yeah, anything! Stay with me! take me! I'm yours!

Rey ain't better. First she's like, this is wow, good?



And than she's like, this is gooooooooooood, ohhhhh....I hate you!



Positively lustful both of them here:



and here: