Virgin!Kylo: Yea or Nay?

BastilaBey wrote:

vaderito wrote:It's totally about Kylo. the scene exposes his incredibly kissy lips:



that everyone is picking up on his crush on the girl (means crush confirmed)

and that he really doesn't want another star system blown up (especially since mommy lives in it).

All in all, great character work.

@vaderito

It's actually crazy how much they fit into all of Kylo's scenes, particularly those he's in with Rey. He was on screen for what...just over 20 minutes? He obviously casts a shadow over a lot more, since Han and Leia talk about him, there's the force vision, etc. but still. There are so many layers and every time I think I've got it all, there's something else - another micro-expression, another possible double meaning to the dialogue. People who say this movie was simply a rehash of ANH missed all the good stuff.

@BastilaBey

I agree.  A lot of the "comfort food" aspect feels rehashy, and there is a lot of it.  But it is hiding the real heart of the story.  Even JJ admitted something in an interview along the lines of "people will think the big Death Star space battle is the important thing, when it is really this moment between these two people on the ground." I wish I could find that interview.

Regarding the Kylo scenes, IMO, the writers concentrated on them the most.  That's why they are so impactful, efficient and deep.

Also it bothers her that he looks down on her just like it bothers him that she hates him at the start of the scene. When he calls her a scavenger, it upsets her that this man she finds attractive thinks she's "beneath him"

Then he shows his attraction to her "you know I can take whatever I want" and her face turns from hurt to curiosity

ÓLPRogue Rey wrote:Kylo Ren is a bag of conflicted emotions bless his tortured little heart.

In the cliff bit he draws her close then pushes her away with his lightsaber so that she's practically bent double on the cliff edge and still he doesn't know what's going on.  He just patiently stands there waiting for her to make her mind up.  And at that moment she doesn't show any fear of him at all.  There is no tension in the way she's holding her lightsaber.  It's not as if she's having to keep him at bay because he's pressing against hers.  And of course she closes her eyes - if she was really scared of him would she do that and then look so serene? He simply just gazes at her, until she embraces the Force and then he looks scared as if he knew her answer before she even acted on it.  

Then the lightsaber dance bit - he resists at first and then just gives up and lets her extinguish his lightsaber, which then leads to her cutting it in half and then branding him (he knows he's owned by her now - like cattle )

He is in deep and he knows it.

@Rogue Reyy 

And in this naughty context, what does the bolded part mean? 
He gave up guys and his seduction was complete. That was consumation because swords have so often been used in fiction as phallic symbols and his is the one that gets extinguished.  The guy looks spent in the end as if he'd had a complete sexual experience. 

I also know there's another meaning and if his sabre represets the DS , this would mean defeat for the DS, but the sexual imagery is just as interesting here. We had a mating ritual in a forest (in the wild) where two males fight for a woman and the most powerful one ( the alpha male if he was an animal) wins. The problem (for him) is that the female has her own agenda and won't let the guys decide who gets her like two brutes, she will have the last word. 

Ah, but the call of the Force ( the call of nature,the wild) is too powerful and she "lets it in", as JJ said, at the edge of the cliff. That was also symbolic as f... becase she really was about to fall there, but not to her death but in his grasp, giving in to seduction ( I can show you...). That scene was her temptation by him and she was on the brink of really "falling".

She resists, gets carried away by her DS and fights him back. In the end he is the one utterly seduced, owned and branded, as you said. But she branded him as "hers" and that's terribly intimate for them both. This "fight" can't be over and he will always bear a reminder of how he "gave in to seduction", how she seduced him and claimed him as hers, whether she wanted to or not.

I don't think she would have killed him if the ravine hadn't separated them. She looked concerned because she had to leave him to his death. If he is affected she is too and that scar of his will haunt her as much as him. It speaks of unfinished business and you know what kind of business I mean, LOL.

Of course there are other issues but while everyone else is fighting they are alone engaged in their own strange mating ritual. It's the third time this happens (1st, Takodana forest, 2nd, interrogation scene, so 3rd is snowy forest duel) and three is a magic number in fairy tales. Third is the charm, as they say.

She hates it because he is a monster but the Force has already designed it, they are meant to be together.

Bumping this up because...Bloodline.

Just wondering if anyone's opinions on Virgin! Kylo have changed because of the info in Bloodline, such as Ben not turning until he was at least 23, and that it sounds like he had a somewhat normal childhood (albeit with absentee parents).

Bu we don't know when he was shipped off to Luke and if he could fool around with other students or whether Luke blew huts if he did?

I stand by my loyalty to Virgin!Kylo. Snoke wouldn't let him.

vaderito wrote:Bu we don't know when he was shipped off to Luke and if he could fool around with other students or whether Luke blew huts if he did?

I stand by my loyalty to Virgin!Kylo. Snoke wouldn't let him.

@vaderito

Oh yeah Snoke has totally slapped a chastity belt on poor old Kylo ala Maid Marian in Robin Hood Men in Tights

Rogue Rey wrote:

Oh yeah Snoke has totally slapped a chastity belt on poor old Kylo ala Maid Marian in Robin Hood Men in Tights

@Rogue Rey

With a GPS.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Bumping this up because...Bloodline.

Just wondering if anyone's opinions on Virgin! Kylo have changed because of the info in Bloodline, such as Ben not turning until he was at least 23, and that it sounds like he had a somewhat normal childhood (albeit with absentee parents).

@ISeeAnIsland

I think it still depends on when he was sent to Luke.  At 10 years old, probably not too much action because Luke, IMO, is coming off as this wandering nomad, with no home base, searching for lore, while Ben has to follow in tow.  If Luke has no home base, Ben may not get much of a chance to really meet someone .... but if they follow a kind The Name of the Rose precedent, there could be a one-off chance for Ben.

However, if Ben gets sent later, like at 16 or 17, the chances of some dabbling go up a lot higher.  To tell you the truth there was a second in Bloodline where I thought that Ben might have had a thing with one of the people Han mentors and may have even had a disabled/ill baby with her, but that was resolved in such a way that I don't believe that happened at all.

Also, as it went on, it seemed like Ben was probably isolated from Han and his racing apprentices because there was a line about how Han taught them in a way he wishes he could have with his son.  There are a lot of reasons why Han didn't train Ben from a simple one like Ben's force sensitivity would make him ineligible for sports even if they hid it (which I think they did) to there being issues between Han and Ben to Ben being sent off when he was really young.  Frankly, Han and Leia have a lot of surrogate mentee kids for some reason.

Also, I am very interested in how long Ben was deemed "normal".  He's like the apple of Leia's eye in the book, but then there is a reason he had to be sent to Luke.  Was it because he couldn't control his force powers and couldn't hide them (a la Elsa ... since Leia seems to purposely not mention Ben's FS) or was there more to it, like he had darkness too.  I think there is a question of when his powers awakened.  I think prior to awakening he might have been quite typical with friends and all.  So if he awakened at 19 like the others, then he could have had a whole life before including a girlfriend.  But with the Snoke whispering starting in childhood, that might indicate that he awakened earlier.

I'm starting to think that whenever he awakened it might have been pretty traumatic for the family.  I mean Leia seems to have been able to ignore her force sensitivity quite a bit.  In the book she also puts logic and common sense before the force most of the time.  I am sure Han and she would have been quite okay with Ben being a low-key FS like her.  But I have a feeling that he might have shown himself to be a prodigy and they didn't know what to do with it.  Ben might not have even wanted to go (and I am sure Han didn't want him to either), but Leia said he needed to go to get under control.

vaderito wrote:Bu we don't know when he was shipped off to Luke and if he could fool around with other students or whether Luke blew huts if he did?

I stand by my loyalty to Virgin!Kylo. Snoke wouldn't let him.

@vaderito

I guess there is that inter-student romance option too. I am thinking though that Luke might have put some stupid old Jedi restrictions on them, but maybe not.

Changes nothing for me - I never thought that Ben turned to the dark side when very young anyway. There is no reason why he couldn't have been a nerdy, awkward, emotionally stunted teenager with deep personal issues, Snoke or not.

Besides, he could have been under Snoke's influence for a very long time, but Snoke didn't want to really show his hand until it was the right time for him and the First Order to truly rise.

Nothing changes for me because we still don't know exactly when he was shipped off to Luke. If pre-puberty, virgin. If post-puberty, he experimented. A nerd he may be, but he was still a (probably) good-looking teenage boy with normal teenage boy hormones. No woman did or will ever top Rey though. I see Rey being the one who wears the pants in the bedroom, but she still needs a teacher to start out. As others have said before, can't teach unless you know the subject.

MeadowofAshes wrote:Nothing changes for me because we still don't know exactly when he was shipped off to Luke. If pre-puberty, virgin. If post-puberty, he experimented. A nerd he may be, but he was still a (probably) good-looking teenage boy with normal teenage boy hormones. No woman did or will ever top Rey though. I see Rey being the one who wears the pants in the bedroom, but she still needs a teacher to start out. As others have said before, can't teach unless you know the subject.

@MeadowofAshes

But Kylo dropped out of Jedi school and never completed DS training! if he's other "qualification" is as bad as this...

I think I've changed my mind. Hes not a virgin, hes just been abstinent since he turned.

Theres the whole metaphorical force sex and him being the one to teach her the ways of the force theme..He's experienced in the force, he awakens her and teachers her things (she takes). Its all just screaming sexually experienced Kylo who sexually awakens Rey metaphor.

@Gemini if you look at interrogation though, that can be a metaphor for mutual 'awakening', i.e. First sexual experience for both of them. He conveys naive inexperience through not understanding personal space, can't help but look at her all over, looks shocked when the tables get turned on him. Both their faces at the end are like 'wtf was that', like they'd both experienced something new. I guess virgin Kylo is a metaphorical discussion since of course we'd never get a real answer. But he still feels virginal to me, as does Rey. The coming of age story kind of calls for it.

BastilaBey wrote:@Gemini if you look at interrogation though, that can be a metaphor for mutual 'awakening', i.e. First sexual experience for both of them. He conveys naive inexperience through not understanding personal space, can't help but look at her all over, looks shocked when the tables get turned on him. Both their faces at the end are like 'wtf was that', like they'd both experienced something new. I guess virgin Kylo is a metaphorical discussion since of course we'd never get a real answer. But he still feels virginal to me, as does Rey. The coming of age story kind of calls for it.

@BastilaBey

I see what you mean but its just that he is experienced in the force and wants to teach her, to show her...just makes me think he's experienced sexually..

But I agree they both seem to discover force sex...

I imagine it would be refreshing for AD to play a character so inexperienced with matters of the heart and bedroom after playing Adam Sackler for years (even if we never know the truth about Kylo's honor other than how AD plays him in his interactions with Rey )

Gemini wrote:I think I've changed my mind. Hes not a virgin, hes just been abstinent since he turned.

Theres the whole metaphorical force sex and him being the one to teach her the ways of the force theme..He's experienced in the force, he awakens her and teachers her things (she takes). Its all just screaming sexually experienced Kylo who sexually awakens Rey metaphor.

@Gemini

But the poor guy was with uncle Luke in some sort of monastery, LOL, no basement make out sessions with girls for Kylo.

Seriously, he seemed terribly naive and inexperienced when he was in that room with Rey. Adam could have made Kylo seem experienced and confident but he didn't. Based on the acting, I saw him as someone not used to dealing with women in that department. He is a warrior monk now and before he was like a lama following Luke and his mystical teachings. No time for play, poor Ben/Ren.

Reynak wrote:

Gemini wrote:I think I've changed my mind. Hes not a virgin, hes just been abstinent since he turned.

Theres the whole metaphorical force sex and him being the one to teach her the ways of the force theme..He's experienced in the force, he awakens her and teachers her things (she takes). Its all just screaming sexually experienced Kylo who sexually awakens Rey metaphor.

@Gemini

But the poor guy was with uncle Luke in some sort of monstery, LOL, no basement make ouy sessions with girls for Kylo.

Seriosly, he seemed terribly naive and inexperienced when he was in that room with Rey. Adam could have made Kylo seem experienced and confident but he didn't. Based on the acting, I saw him as someone not used to dealing with women in that department. He is a warrior monk now and before he was a like a lama following Luke and his mystical teachings. No time for play, poor Ben/Ren.

@Reynak

LOL, he did seem quite out of his element with Rey.

Putting her to sleep and carrying her to his ship was the easy part for Kylo. But then he tries to have a conversation with her and the best he can come up with is stuff like, "Tell me about the droid"... the droid that he let go, what is there to talk about? Oh and "You... a scavenger" which makes her cry. Dude might be a total bad*** on the battlefield but is completely awkward and hopeless around a woman he is attracted to.

vaderito wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:Nothing changes for me because we still don't know exactly when he was shipped off to Luke. If pre-puberty, virgin. If post-puberty, he experimented. A nerd he may be, but he was still a (probably) good-looking teenage boy with normal teenage boy hormones. No woman did or will ever top Rey though. I see Rey being the one who wears the pants in the bedroom, but she still needs a teacher to start out. As others have said before, can't teach unless you know the subject.

@MeadowofAshes

But Kylo dropped out of Jedi school and never completed DS training! if he's other "qualification" is as bad as this...

@vaderito

Maybe he dropped out of lovemaking school and went to kink school.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

vaderito wrote:

MeadowofAshes wrote:Nothing changes for me because we still don't know exactly when he was shipped off to Luke. If pre-puberty, virgin. If post-puberty, he experimented. A nerd he may be, but he was still a (probably) good-looking teenage boy with normal teenage boy hormones. No woman did or will ever top Rey though. I see Rey being the one who wears the pants in the bedroom, but she still needs a teacher to start out. As others have said before, can't teach unless you know the subject.

@MeadowofAshes

But Kylo dropped out of Jedi school and never completed DS training! if he's other "qualification" is as bad as this...

@vaderito

Maybe he dropped out of lovemaking school and went to kink school.

@MeadowofAshes

Strapping Rey to interrogation bed is a good start.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Bumping this up because...Bloodline.

Just wondering if anyone's opinions on Virgin! Kylo have changed because of the info in Bloodline, such as Ben not turning until he was at least 23, and that it sounds like he had a somewhat normal childhood (albeit with absentee parents).

@ISeeAnIsland

I think it still depends on when he was sent to Luke.  At 10 years old, probably not too much action because Luke, IMO, is coming off as this wandering nomad, with no home base, searching for lore, while Ben has to follow in tow.  If Luke has no home base, Ben may not get much of a chance to really meet someone .... but if they follow a kind The Name of the Rose precedent, there could be a one-off chance for Ben.

However, if Ben gets sent later, like at 16 or 17, the chances of some dabbling go up a lot higher.  To tell you the truth there was a second in Bloodline where I thought that Ben might have had a thing with one of the people Han mentors and may have even had a disabled/ill baby with her, but that was resolved in such a way that I don't believe that happened at all.

Also, as it went on, it seemed like Ben was probably isolated from Han and his racing apprentices because there was a line about how Han taught them in a way he wishes he could have with his son.  There are a lot of reasons why Han didn't train Ben from a simple one like Ben's force sensitivity would make him ineligible for sports even if they hid it (which I think they did) to there being issues between Han and Ben to Ben being sent off when he was really young.  Frankly, Han and Leia have a lot of surrogate mentee kids for some reason.

Also, I am very interested in how long Ben was deemed "normal".  He's like the apple of Leia's eye in the book, but then there is a reason he had to be sent to Luke.  Was it because he couldn't control his force powers and couldn't hide them (a la Elsa ... since Leia seems to purposely not mention Ben's FS) or was there more to it, like he had darkness too.  I think there is a question of when his powers awakened.  I think prior to awakening he might have been quite typical with friends and all.  So if he awakened at 19 like the others, then he could have had a whole life before including a girlfriend.  But with the Snoke whispering starting in childhood, that might indicate that he awakened earlier.

I'm starting to think that whenever he awakened it might have been pretty traumatic for the family.  I mean Leia seems to have been able to ignore her force sensitivity quite a bit.  In the book she also puts logic and common sense before the force most of the time.  I am sure Han and she would have been quite okay with Ben being a low-key FS like her.  But I have a feeling that he might have shown himself to be a prodigy and they didn't know what to do with it.  Ben might not have even wanted to go (and I am sure Han didn't want him to either), but Leia said he needed to go to get under control.

@SoloSideCousin

but don't they keep vader a secret too? sorry i haven't read it so i'm just going by vague spoilers...

if they 'don't mention the force' and vader, i think discovering force powers would have been a very strange thing indeed... and very alienating in itself.

i imagine that if he had force powers very early on, he would have used them without being aware of them as such. and then he learns to control them? idk.

too many questions.

guardienne wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Bumping this up because...Bloodline.

Just wondering if anyone's opinions on Virgin! Kylo have changed because of the info in Bloodline, such as Ben not turning until he was at least 23, and that it sounds like he had a somewhat normal childhood (albeit with absentee parents).

@ISeeAnIsland

I think it still depends on when he was sent to Luke.  At 10 years old, probably not too much action because Luke, IMO, is coming off as this wandering nomad, with no home base, searching for lore, while Ben has to follow in tow.  If Luke has no home base, Ben may not get much of a chance to really meet someone .... but if they follow a kind The Name of the Rose precedent, there could be a one-off chance for Ben.

However, if Ben gets sent later, like at 16 or 17, the chances of some dabbling go up a lot higher.  To tell you the truth there was a second in Bloodline where I thought that Ben might have had a thing with one of the people Han mentors and may have even had a disabled/ill baby with her, but that was resolved in such a way that I don't believe that happened at all.

Also, as it went on, it seemed like Ben was probably isolated from Han and his racing apprentices because there was a line about how Han taught them in a way he wishes he could have with his son.  There are a lot of reasons why Han didn't train Ben from a simple one like Ben's force sensitivity would make him ineligible for sports even if they hid it (which I think they did) to there being issues between Han and Ben to Ben being sent off when he was really young.  Frankly, Han and Leia have a lot of surrogate mentee kids for some reason.

Also, I am very interested in how long Ben was deemed "normal".  He's like the apple of Leia's eye in the book, but then there is a reason he had to be sent to Luke.  Was it because he couldn't control his force powers and couldn't hide them (a la Elsa ... since Leia seems to purposely not mention Ben's FS) or was there more to it, like he had darkness too.  I think there is a question of when his powers awakened.  I think prior to awakening he might have been quite typical with friends and all.  So if he awakened at 19 like the others, then he could have had a whole life before including a girlfriend.  But with the Snoke whispering starting in childhood, that might indicate that he awakened earlier.

I'm starting to think that whenever he awakened it might have been pretty traumatic for the family.  I mean Leia seems to have been able to ignore her force sensitivity quite a bit.  In the book she also puts logic and common sense before the force most of the time.  I am sure Han and she would have been quite okay with Ben being a low-key FS like her.  But I have a feeling that he might have shown himself to be a prodigy and they didn't know what to do with it.  Ben might not have even wanted to go (and I am sure Han didn't want him to either), but Leia said he needed to go to get under control.

@SoloSideCousin

but don't they keep vader a secret too? sorry i haven't read it so i'm just going by vague spoilers...

if they 'don't mention the force' and vader, i think discovering force powers would have been a very strange thing indeed... and very alienating in itself.

i imagine that if he had force powers very early on, he would have used them without being aware of them as such. and then he learns to control them? idk.

too many questions.

@guardienne

He does know Luke is the uncle. He and Leia were supposed to be "war orphans" adopted out. So he would know that he has force in the family. However, there is a bit in the story that indicates that most people don't have enough knowledge in the force to know it's inherited. So if Leia downplayed her abilities, Ben might just think Luke was an outlier ... so in that respect getting the force would be a shock in and of itself.

MeadowofAshes wrote:Nothing changes for me because we still don't know exactly when he was shipped off to Luke. If pre-puberty, virgin. If post-puberty, he experimented. A nerd he may be, but he was still a (probably) good-looking teenage boy with normal teenage boy hormones. No woman did or will ever top Rey though. I see Rey being the one who wears the pants in the bedroom, but she still needs a teacher to start out. As others have said before, can't teach unless you know the subject.

@MeadowofAshes

If there was any doubts your meta presents a great case for him having experience before meeting Rey.
http://felixazrael.tumblr.com/post/144074398210/female-sexuality-awakens-the

Hey guys, new kid on the block here!
I don't usually get involved in things like this, but I read through this whole thing and was amazed at how insightful it was!  
Now before I rattle off my thought, I noticed that there is an opinion sway between the ages of the people observing what is going on during the scenes. I'm probably one of the younger ones here being a teenager fresh out of High School. Now for me, Kylo/Ben really darts back and forth between innocence and a full-on seductive "he knows exactly what he's talking about" kind of thing. He carries himself with a swagger and confidence that from my experience from getting hit on by guys, says "you know you like what you see"...its very subtle, and lasts only as long as it takes for him to stride over to Rey. Its easy to get thrown off by how weirdly calm, and traitorously gentle he's being. Additionally, as soon as that mask comes off there is a veritable shift in the air. That pouty not-quite-smirk makes me think he knows he is a pretty-boy (I mean lets be honest, that first shot of him really is magnificent). Which in turn makes me think he's been exposed to at least some kind of flirtation from the opposite sex. Hmm, its really a toss up, because when he is not around Rey, and he has his mask off, he has a more innocent vibe. Still volatile, but awkward. I can sympathize.     

I actually watched some of Adam Driver's other on-screen appearances right after I saw the film because I was thinking his seductiveness might have been a mistake, so I wanted to see if he just comes off like that on a regular basis without even trying.
My discovery? Nope. Adam is an amazing actor and if it was not meant to be there it would not be there. What does this mean as far as virginity? Really, it could go either way again, in my opinion

Krafty wrote:Hey guys, new kid on the block here!
I don't usually get involved in things like this, but I read through this whole thing and was amazed at how insightful it was!  
Now before I rattle off my thought, I noticed that there is an opinion sway between the ages of the people observing what is going on during the scenes. I'm probably one of the younger ones here being a teenager fresh out of High School. Now for me, Kylo/Ben really darts back and forth between innocence and a full-on seductive "he knows exactly what he's talking about" kind of thing. He carries himself with a swagger and confidence that from my experience from getting hit on by guys, says "you know you like what you see"...its very subtle, and lasts only as long as it takes for him to stride over to Rey. Its easy to get thrown off by how weirdly calm, and traitorously gentle he's being. Additionally, as soon as that mask comes off there is a veritable shift in the air. That pouty not-quite-smirk makes me think he knows he is a pretty-boy (I mean lets be honest, that first shot of him really is magnificent). Which in turn makes me think he's been exposed to at least some kind of flirtation from the opposite sex. Hmm, its really a toss up, because when he is not around Rey, and he has his mask off, he has a more innocent vibe. Still volatile, but awkward. I can sympathize.     

I actually watched some of Adam Driver's other on-screen appearances right after I saw the film because I was thinking his seductiveness might have been a mistake, so I wanted to see if he just comes off like that on a regular basis without even trying.
My discovery? Nope. Adam is an amazing actor and if it was not meant to be there it would not be there. What does this mean as far as virginity? Really, it could go either way again, in my opinion

@Krafty

I agree with everything you say here. I'm in the camp that while I don't think Kylo is a virgin in the technical sense of the word, he doesn't have loads of experience. While this may be the case however, he for lack of a better word "peacocks" when he's around her. He KNOWS she's going to like what she sees when he takes off that mask.

And welcome to the board! Glad to see a new face around here!