Discussion: Spoilers/Rumors

It looks as if she's kneeling, but Leia might be standing on a ramp leading to a ship.

I think it's Luke that Leia ia reacting to in that scene. We saw pics of him on the Crait set with Carrie.

Darth_Awakened wrote:
@nonesuch

WOW!

I'd like to watch this movie!

EDIT: A thought crossed my mind. It's deal done that Finn & Rose escape SD. My question is: HOW? Who help them escape? (Finn's not a pilot, and I'am guessing neither is Rose).

@nonesuch, same here. I'd watch that movie. The only wrinkles I'd add are what we've been guessing at via Bloodline and some of the databank materials/rumors:

SPACE POLITICS: All of the background details from Bloodline about the different power players in the NR and on the fringe, who were secretly collaborating with the FO. I'd say Holdo isn't just interested in a power play for the sake of pushing Leia out and taking over, but that she has some kind of alliance via the NR factions show in Bloodline. This likely figures into Hux's trip to the Planet of the Rich Assholes

THE NR AIN'T THAT GREAT: Vis Leia and Bloodline, but likely also in showing part of what drove Ben into defecting to the FO as the son of a high ranking leader who grew up in the capitol. And in contrast to somebody like Rey, left alone in a place with no law and poverty.

THE TRUTH THAT IS YOUR FAMILY: Also some of the details from Bloodline and the dialogue in TFA about the impact on Luke and Leia of their father's brutal dual identity as Darth Vader. Including how it was kept a secret until Leia is outted. And how that has impacted each twin - it likely fueled some of whatever cause Luke got involved because he saw their father idealistically versus how Leia stayed in denial (and kept it a secret from Ben to protect him) until she was forced to face it.

THE FORCE IS OUT OF BALANCE: This is the big one, we have little or no idea what Luke had been involved with in recent years. And from hints, it doesn't sound like he was doing field ethnography about the early history of the Jedi with grad student assistant Ben. It sounds a little more like the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition.

WHATEVER HAPPENED AT UNCLE LUKE'S BIBLE CAMP: They've hinted at there being another flashback, this time about when Ben 'destroyed it all.' Which most audience members are expecting a school shooter or Vader 2.0 scenario. But which likely will show some kind of situation where he reacts in part because of the Vader reveal, family tension/secrets, and an ideological rift. Luke bears a major responsibility for what happened and that's why he's in hiding.

SPACE BEAR: May not overtly call it a Force Bond, but that there will be *something* weird which connects these two characters.

If they did the reunion between Leia and Ben the way you wrote it, there would not be a dry eye in the house. Mine included!

Eh, I wouldn't be so sure. There are many characters who have pants tucked in their boots. Could be a Random Resistance Redshirt, could be Poe, could be Finn, could be Luke, etc. They all look the same in the shadow cause they wear the same crap from waist down.

Also, Kylo's knightly tunic should be there and it isn't. It's someone who only has pants and a shirt, not pants and a tunic.

vaderito wrote:


Eh, I wouldn't be so sure. There are many characters who have pants tucked in their boots. Could be a Random Resistance Redshirt, could be Poe, could be Finn, could be Luke, etc. They all look the same in the shadow cause they wear the same crap from waist down.

Also, Kylo's knightly tunic should be there and it isn't. It's someone who only has pants and a shirt, not pants and a tunic.

@vaderito

I have no idea if that is Kylo or not, but I wouldn't rule him out over the lack of long tunic. He may get a third outfit by the end. Remember Jason saying he got an outfit similar to Luke's ROTJ outfit.

snufkin wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:
@nonesuch

WOW!

I'd like to watch this movie!

EDIT: A thought crossed my mind. It's deal done that Finn & Rose escape SD. My question is: HOW? Who help them escape? (Finn's not a pilot, and I'am guessing neither is Rose).

@nonesuch, same here. I'd watch that movie. The only wrinkles I'd add are what we've been guessing at via Bloodline and some of the databank materials/rumors:

SPACE POLITICS: All of the background details from Bloodline about the different power players in the NR and on the fringe, who were secretly collaborating with the FO. I'd say Holdo isn't just interested in a power play for the sake of pushing Leia out and taking over, but that she has some kind of alliance via the NR factions show in Bloodline. This likely figures into Hux's trip to the Planet of the Rich Assholes

THE NR AIN'T THAT GREAT: Vis Leia and Bloodline, but likely also in showing part of what drove Ben into defecting to the FO as the son of a high ranking leader who grew up in the capitol. And in contrast to somebody like Rey, left alone in a place with no law and poverty.

THE TRUTH THAT IS YOUR FAMILY: Also some of the details from Bloodline and the dialogue in TFA about the impact on Luke and Leia of their father's brutal dual identity as Darth Vader. Including how it was kept a secret until Leia is outted. And how that has impacted each twin - it likely fueled some of whatever cause Luke got involved because he saw their father idealistically versus how Leia stayed in denial (and kept it a secret from Ben to protect him) until she was forced to face it.

THE FORCE IS OUT OF BALANCE: This is the big one, we have little or no idea what Luke had been involved with in recent years. And from hints, it doesn't sound like he was doing field ethnography about the early history of the Jedi with grad student assistant Ben. It sounds a little more like the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition.

WHATEVER HAPPENED AT UNCLE LUKE'S BIBLE CAMP: They've hinted at there being another flashback, this time about when Ben 'destroyed it all.' Which most audience members are expecting a school shooter or Vader 2.0 scenario. But which likely will show some kind of situation where he reacts in part because of the Vader reveal, family tension/secrets, and an ideological rift. Luke bears a major responsibility for what happened and that's why he's in hiding.

SPACE BEAR: May not overtly call it a Force Bond, but that there will be *something* weird which connects these two characters.

If they did the reunion between Leia and Ben the way you wrote it, there would not be a dry eye in the house. Mine included!

@snufkin

YES! @nonesuch, fantastic job in putting this together.

And I agree that there's going to be more to the story of Ben's fall than his parents being a bit too self-absorbed in their own causes. We've speculated on a lot of possibilities for this here, and I'm not sure which one I favor most...although I do suspect that Luke will be directly responsible for it (even if it's inadvertently).

The official move synopsis even promises "shocking revelations of the past", and I'd be shocked if Ben's fall isn't one of those. (And I bet another one will be something horrible that the early Jedi did.)

SoloSideCousin wrote:
I have no idea if that is Kylo or not, but I wouldn't rule him out over the lack of long tunic. He may get a third outfit by the end. Remember Jason saying he got an outfit similar to Luke's ROTJ outfit.

@SoloSideCousin

What's he wearing now is the uniform similar to Luke's. Also, it doesn't make any sense that he approaches from that angle. So likely just a staff on the set, not a finished scene.

It's not him.

snufkin wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:
@nonesuch

WOW!

I'd like to watch this movie!

EDIT: A thought crossed my mind. It's deal done that Finn & Rose escape SD. My question is: HOW? Who help them escape? (Finn's not a pilot, and I'am guessing neither is Rose).

@nonesuch, same here. I'd watch that movie. The only wrinkles I'd add are what we've been guessing at via Bloodline and some of the databank materials/rumors:

SPACE POLITICS: All of the background details from Bloodline about the different power players in the NR and on the fringe, who were secretly collaborating with the FO. I'd say Holdo isn't just interested in a power play for the sake of pushing Leia out and taking over, but that she has some kind of alliance via the NR factions show in Bloodline. This likely figures into Hux's trip to the Planet of the Rich Assholes

THE NR AIN'T THAT GREAT: Vis Leia and Bloodline, but likely also in showing part of what drove Ben into defecting to the FO as the son of a high ranking leader who grew up in the capitol. And in contrast to somebody like Rey, left alone in a place with no law and poverty.

THE TRUTH THAT IS YOUR FAMILY: Also some of the details from Bloodline and the dialogue in TFA about the impact on Luke and Leia of their father's brutal dual identity as Darth Vader. Including how it was kept a secret until Leia is outted. And how that has impacted each twin - it likely fueled some of whatever cause Luke got involved because he saw their father idealistically versus how Leia stayed in denial (and kept it a secret from Ben to protect him) until she was forced to face it.

THE FORCE IS OUT OF BALANCE: This is the big one, we have little or no idea what Luke had been involved with in recent years. And from hints, it doesn't sound like he was doing field ethnography about the early history of the Jedi with grad student assistant Ben. It sounds a little more like the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition.

WHATEVER HAPPENED AT UNCLE LUKE'S BIBLE CAMP: They've hinted at there being another flashback, this time about when Ben 'destroyed it all.' Which most audience members are expecting a school shooter or Vader 2.0 scenario. But which likely will show some kind of situation where he reacts in part because of the Vader reveal, family tension/secrets, and an ideological rift. Luke bears a major responsibility for what happened and that's why he's in hiding.

SPACE BEAR: May not overtly call it a Force Bond, but that there will be *something* weird which connects these two characters.

If they did the reunion between Leia and Ben the way you wrote it, there would not be a dry eye in the house. Mine included!

@snufkin

Aww, thank you so much everyone! I really enjoyed writing the breakdown, so I'm glad to see people appreciate it .

eta: never mind

It is staff ( source BTS Last Jedi on youtube 2.29 - 2.30 )

More promo material from NewsFromJakku (they are leaking so much lately)

@nonesuch, you're welcome! It's fun to come up with ideas based not just on what we can confirm, but which sounds plausible in terms of the characters and stories. I think that there will definitely be an unexpected alliance between all of these characters the further the movie progresses towards the finale. Rey will be the key figure. She's dangerous to somebody like Snoke not just because of her Force powers, but because she's good at taking charge and influencing other characters. Whatever happened with Han and Finn will likely also happen with Luke and Ben.

I spent part of the morning afternoon seeing the 70mm Imax print of Dunkirk (can tell where there are parts Inception and Interstellar were training for how the story was shot/edited) and TFA teaser in Imax is glorious. Beautifully shot and definitely worth seeing in that projection. But it tells absolutely nothing at all, just that Rey is with Luke on Ache-to, stuff gets blown up, there are father-daughter parallels between Leia/Vader, the Resistance is under fire, and Kylo shows up with his rebuilt saber. Looks great, but it's the opposite of how most trailers tell you the entire story as a way of selling it to you. So while Mystery Box is frustrating, I was also like "this looks beautiful and it doesn't spoil anything." Versus the Blade Runner sequel trailer which followed it and I can already guess what the big secret in that movie. Also funny that it's the same type of story if you figure the Ryan Gosling character is basically Rey and Deckard is Luke.

So another random spoiler type thought which occurred to me. But you know the tidbit about Kylo's ship and having his skills "passed down" by Han? Besides the heart rending implications of that statement (bad pun?), it jogged my memory on a couple of ideas I'd had after seeing TFA for the first time:

* Han taught him how to fly using the MF and it's possible that Ben may have been involved with whatever wanderlusting/shady business Han got into when he and Leia hit the point of spending too much time together. So if Ben has Han's temperament/flying skills, shady behavior, and Force powers, plus the details about him being reckless by nature and getting involved with a bad crowd. That sounds like the background for whatever caused Leia to send him to Luke and the initial rift in the family. Especially if Ben didn't want to go and appealed to Han to intervene. But that would account for some of Han's guilt in the situation with his son.

* The "What Girl?!" moment. I thought it was him freaking out that whomever Rey was had to be somebody who was either on the ground working with Poe on behalf of the Resistance or a villager who had escaped from Tuanel. Hence making it his personal mission to capture and figure out who she is. But the detail in that moment is that Mitaka tells him the exact model of ship, which is a ship he's intimately familiar with. He also knows that Finn is a grunt foot soldier, not a pilot, accompanied by a cute little droid, who also can't fly. So it's both the "which side is this girl working for" plus the knowledge that if she can fly a ship like the MF w/out a co-pilot and outrun Hux's troops which makes him immediately want to go after her. He knows that this is somebody with some serious skills and is shocked to learn that she's just a motivated bystander.

* Beyond that, if they ever give out any kind of explanation of how Plutt ended up in possession of the MF, I'd bet that Ben got involved in something where the ship got stolen, setting off his banishment to Luke and the chain of theft where it ended up on Jakku.

snufkin wrote:I spent part of the morning afternoon seeing the 70mm Imax print of Dunkirk (can tell where there are parts Inception and Interstellar were training for how the story was shot/edited) and TFA teaser in Imax is glorious. Beautifully shot and definitely worth seeing in that projection. But it tells absolutely nothing at all, just that Rey is with Luke on Ache-to, stuff gets blown up, there are father-daughter parallels between Leia/Vader, the Resistance is under fire, and Kylo shows up with his rebuilt saber. Looks great, but it's the opposite of how most trailers tell you the entire story as a way of selling it to you. So while Mystery Box is frustrating, I was also like "this looks beautiful and it doesn't spoil anything." Versus the Blade Runner sequel trailer which followed it and I can already guess what the big secret in that movie. Also funny that it's the same type of story if you figure the Ryan Gosling character is basically Rey and Deckard is Luke.

So another random spoiler type thought which occurred to me. But you know the tidbit about Kylo's ship and having his skills "passed down" by Han? Besides the heart rending implications of that statement (bad pun?), it jogged my memory on a couple of ideas I'd had after seeing TFA for the first time:

* Han taught him how to fly using the MF and it's possible that Ben may have been involved with whatever wanderlusting/shady business Han got into when he and Leia hit the point of spending too much time together. So if Ben has Han's temperament/flying skills, shady behavior, and Force powers, plus the details about him being reckless by nature and getting involved with a bad crowd. That sounds like the background for whatever caused Leia to send him to Luke and the initial rift in the family. Especially if Ben didn't want to go and appealed to Han to intervene. But that would account for some of Han's guilt in the situation with his son.

* The "What Girl?!" moment. I thought it was him freaking out that whomever Rey was had to be somebody who was either on the ground working with Poe on behalf of the Resistance or a villager who had escaped from Tuanel. Hence making it his personal mission to capture and figure out who she is. But the detail in that moment is that Mitaka tells him the exact model of ship, which is a ship he's intimately familiar with. He also knows that Finn is a grunt foot soldier, not a pilot, accompanied by a cute little droid, who also can't fly. So it's both the "which side is this girl working for" plus the knowledge that if she can fly a ship like the MF w/out a co-pilot and outrun Hux's troops which makes him immediately want to go after her. He knows that this is somebody with some serious skills and is shocked to learn that she's just a motivated bystander.

* Beyond that, if they ever give out any kind of explanation of how Plutt ended up in possession of the MF, I'd bet that Ben got involved in something where the ship got stolen, setting off his banishment to Luke and the chain of theft where it ended up on Jakku.

@snufkin

Something similar to this has long been my headcanon for a pre-fall Ben. I just had the feeling that Ben was more of a pilot/scoundrel-in-the-making type than a Jedi/dark lord type.

From what I recall, there's a canon source (Visual Guide, maybe?) that said that Han lost the Falcon at a time of personal turmoil. I think you're onto something there. (It's also a piece of evidence cited by Reywalker-types that Kylo left young Rey on Jakku after the massacre or Rey Soloists as evidence of Rey Solo.) I think that your son who you've been teaching to fly, etc, with, getting in a huge amount of trouble and sent away would easily qualify as "personal turmoil". It'd even be more ironic that Han "lost" the Falcon because, say, Ben lost the Falcon gambling with some shady underworld type.

We know the MF is gone by the time Bloodline happens. We also know that Ben had a troubled childhood and was rumored to have "fallen in with the wrong crowd". MSW even made mention of him being involved with "gangs". Here, we probably instantly think of street gangs... But in Star Wars, "gangs" has meant things like Kanjiclub, Black Sun, etc. Han certainly would have been likely to cross paths with those gangs in his questionable dealings.

@ISeeAnIsland - oh agreed, "too much of his father in him." And "weak and foolish" I'd say has to do specifically with whatever happened, Han let him down badly.

When I finally saw TFA and was trying to figure it out, all of the theories about the MF ending up on Jakku proving Reylated at Jedi Academy just seemed like reaching to me. So if it's something they never explain (which sometimes is the best approach), it's fine because you can just imagine whatever Han got into which caused that to happen. And it'd be ironic b/c supposedly he cheated Lando out of it. But if they did tie it in with whatever happened with Ben, especially if that's a possible reason why Han doesn't back him against Leia wanting to send him away, that would work very well too. Especially with the contrasting father-son scenes in the ship (even if they cut Ben's) meaning something more about their relationship and its loss. But anyways, that throw away line w/the release of his ship specs, there's more going on there than just he's a bad a** pilot. It has to do with his relationship with Han, the full implication of what happened before Bloodline and during TFA, and also part of why he initially pursues Rey because knowing that type of ship, he already knows her stealing it/flying it solo (ha) means the person who has the droid is pretty damn capable.

snufkin wrote:@nonesuch, you're welcome! It's fun to come up with ideas based not just on what we can confirm, but which sounds plausible in terms of the characters and stories. I think that there will definitely be an unexpected alliance between all of these characters the further the movie progresses towards the finale. Rey will be the key figure. She's dangerous to somebody like Snoke not just because of her Force powers, but because she's good at taking charge and influencing other characters. Whatever happened with Han and Finn will likely also happen with Luke and Ben.

@snufkin

I they don't want to end up with something as dull as ROTJ as the final movie, they have to set up some interesting alliances for IX. I don't expect Kylo as an ally in TLJ until the very end so it could roll over into IX. As JB says, Civil War situation.

So Thor 3 scores again! Brilliant fun poster (unlike these dull as a dishwasher red TLJ posters), amazing trailer. Their marketing has been on point, unlike TLJ.

vaderito wrote:So Thor 3 scores again! Brilliant fun poster (unlike these dull as a dishwasher red TLJ posters), amazing trailer. Their marketing has been on point, unlike TLJ.

@vaderito


You have to consider that Star Wars and Thor, tho both under Disney, are two different franchises and of different genres. 

Marvel does typical comic book movie things for their marketing. Star Wars is not a comic book movie and will not be marketed like such.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

vaderito wrote:So Thor 3 scores again! Brilliant fun poster (unlike these dull as a dishwasher red TLJ posters), amazing trailer. Their marketing has been on point, unlike TLJ.

@vaderito


You have to consider that Star Wars and Thor, tho both under Disney, are two different franchises and of different genres. 

Marvel does typical comic book movie things for their marketing. Star Wars is not a comic book movie and will not be marketed like such.

@Rei of Sunshine

Exactly. I really loved those posters, and I was ecstatic to see not only Kylo the only "villain" featured among the heroes as a true lead, but you also have Rey and Kylo facing the exact same direction to the far right. How anyone can hate on those is beyond me.

IoJovi wrote:

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

vaderito wrote:So Thor 3 scores again! Brilliant fun poster (unlike these dull as a dishwasher red TLJ posters), amazing trailer. Their marketing has been on point, unlike TLJ.

@vaderito


You have to consider that Star Wars and Thor, tho both under Disney, are two different franchises and of different genres. 

Marvel does typical comic book movie things for their marketing. Star Wars is not a comic book movie and will not be marketed like such.

@Rei of Sunshine

Exactly.  I really loved those posters, and I was ecstatic to see not only Kylo the only "villain" featured among the heroes as a true lead, but you also have Rey and Kylo facing the exact same direction to the far right.  How anyone can hate on those is beyond me.  

@IoJovi

I'm still excited about the fact that Rian posted Kylo's along with that "sweetheart" comment      

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

vaderito wrote:So Thor 3 scores again! Brilliant fun poster (unlike these dull as a dishwasher red TLJ posters), amazing trailer. Their marketing has been on point, unlike TLJ.

@vaderito
He

You have to consider that Star Wars and Thor, tho both under Disney, are two different franchises and of different genres. 

Marvel does typical comic book movie things for their marketing. Star Wars is not a comic book movie and will not be marketed like such.

@Rei of Sunshine

I watched Infinity war leaked trailer, Thor trailer and Justice League new trailer in a row and felt quite happy that SW looks and feels differently from those

Marvel movies are marketed in a totally different way to Star Wars. The Marvel panels have owned SDCC for years now and D23 attendees seemed to be putting the Marvel stuff way ahead of Star Wars in polls of what they were most excited for (the Disney live action movies also came out ahead of The Last Jedi). I don't have the figures to hand, but I think The Empire Strikes Back was the lowest performing at the box office, and it's been the most critically lauded ever since. Lucasfilm don't expect The Last Jedi to do anywhere near the box office of TFA, and it won't. Rogue One outperformed expectations partly on novelty value too. This won't extend to the Han Solo movie. Marvel know how to work the crowds and they promote their heroes and villains in a way Star Wars won't or can't because of all the mystery box stuff. I don't think the Marvel style would really work or suit Star Wars, they did a bit with Rogue One by having BM come on stage in full Krennic costume and they've had the droids/storm troopers at certain events in the past. I'm glad they didn't have AD dress up as Kylo, though. Anyway, as expected the marketing for TLJ isn't the same as for TFA, the nostalgia factor has been used up. I'm sure things will ramp up with the new trailer around October time. Hopefully they'll be a bit more daring with what they tease by then to get the hype levels going.

This thread is starting to remind me of an episode of CSI.

I love the red posters.

SkyStar wrote:

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

vaderito wrote:So Thor 3 scores again! Brilliant fun poster (unlike these dull as a dishwasher red TLJ posters), amazing trailer. Their marketing has been on point, unlike TLJ.

@vaderito
He

You have to consider that Star Wars and Thor, tho both under Disney, are two different franchises and of different genres. 

Marvel does typical comic book movie things for their marketing. Star Wars is not a comic book movie and will not be marketed like such.

@Rei of Sunshine

I watched Infinity war leaked trailer, Thor trailer and Justice League new trailer in a row and felt quite happy that SW looks and feels differently from those

@SkyStar

Marvel are becoming more and more like teen comedies, with the exception of the Captain America movies. SW has far more depth.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Marvel movies are marketed in a totally different way to Star Wars. The Marvel panels have owned SDCC for years now and D23 attendees seemed to be putting the Marvel stuff way ahead of Star Wars in polls of what they were most excited for (the Disney live action movies also came out ahead of The Last Jedi). I don't have the figures to hand, but I think The Empire Strikes Back was the lowest performing at the box office, and it's been the most critically lauded ever since. Lucasfilm don't expect The Last Jedi to do anywhere near the box office of TFA, and it won't. Rogue One outperformed expectations partly on novelty value too. This won't extend to the Han Solo movie. Marvel know how to work the crowds and they promote their heroes and villains in a way Star Wars won't or can't because of all the mystery box stuff. I don't think the Marvel style would really work or suit Star Wars, they did a bit with Rogue One by having BM come on stage in full Krennic costume and they've had the droids/storm troopers at certain events in the past. I'm glad they didn't have AD dress up as Kylo, though. Anyway, as expected the marketing for TLJ isn't the same as for TFA, the nostalgia factor has been used up. I'm sure things will ramp up with the new trailer around October time. Hopefully they'll be a bit more daring with what they tease by then to get the hype levels going.

@Mrs Ben Solo


[size=83]Agreed. [/size]


[size=83]Marvel is a whole different monster than Star Wars, and I daresay that it has a bigger fanbase because there are more Heroes to root for. By that I mean Iron Man has a big fanbase, then Cap has his own, Spidey has his own etc. Put them all together and it's a colossus compared to what Star Wars might have. Not saying that the SW fanbase is small, but the way they target their market is a different method. [/size]


[size=83]Marvel has their comic book universe and the separate MCU. Fans have the choice which thread to follow. MCU has a lot of freedom to expand and do so as they please with their stories to keep it fresh. There are so many different versions and worlds to Marvel that fans can choose whichever they want. The MCU is just the tip of the iceberg.[/size]


[size=83]While SW has only one canon thread and all books, comics and movies adhere to that thread. What more is SW has the pressure of both keeping it nostalgic yet fresh to reign in both old and new fans. [/size]


[size=83]So far MCU is going for colorful, quirky, yet edgy in their marketing. It's like the Guardians of the Galaxy has influenced all subsequent MCU movies to be on the same wavelength.[/size]


[size=83]Star Wars only has trilogies and they have a story telling pattern to follow to reach a satisfying conclusion. Marketing will reflect that. 
[/size]


I think we should just trust that LFL knows what they're doing. Marketing-wise, I'm sure they're just giving other Disney movies leeway for now, but come September, it'll be full force. Disney knows how to play the marketing game and it's impossible for them to just let Star Wars fall off the race.