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There. That's better.

IoJovi wrote:
I don't understand why Finn has to be Force sensitive and end up with the heroine to be a compelling character in his own right. Luke Skywalker never got the girl (incest aside).  Han wasn't Force sensitive.  Yet both are iconic to the point where they are household names.  

@IoJovi

I always liked Han more than Luke... and I really like Finn- my issue with him is that his behavior totally don't fit a brainwashed-from-birth Stormtrooper-gone-rogue (at least how I imagine a character like that should behave). He is too- I don't know how to put it into words... cheery?  

Night Huntress wrote:

IoJovi wrote:
I don't understand why Finn has to be Force sensitive and end up with the heroine to be a compelling character in his own right. Luke Skywalker never got the girl (incest aside).  Han wasn't Force sensitive.  Yet both are iconic to the point where they are household names.  

@IoJovi

I always liked Han more than Luke... and I really like Finn- my issue with him is that his behavior totally don't fit a brainwashed-from-birth Stormtrooper-gone-rogue (at least how I imagine a character like that should behave). He is too- I don't know how to put it into words... cheery?  

@Night Huntress Yeah, the Force stuff in ESB was magical (and meaningful) to kid me, but Leia and Han were always my favorite characters.

[size=50] If Finn is Force sensitive I see it in more of a Leia/Chirrut/(I'd even argue Han here with his inordinate amount of "luck") way. There's active "I use the Force" types. And there are characters who more closely resemble folks IRL who can "hear the Spirit" or have strong gut feelings. The Force, in this way, is a metaphor for our intuition/sensitivity to God's messages (if you're the religious or spiritual type, which Lucas was). Finn resembles this type at the Jakku village. The Force/his conscience awakens and he makes the right choice. I just hope Rian makes his characterization more consistent (*cough* and cuts back on the OTT behavior).[/size]

I wish Finn would be more like John Boyega (confident, assertive, vibrant) and less like... well... Finn.

But then that would be confusing the character for the actor, I know. However I know John loves this character a lot. This character is basically his big break. We know that he wouldn't allow his alter ego to become a 2nd rate side character the fans are so afraid he might be.

And the fact that they're so afraid is because they've only seen Finn for what he is in TFA; confused, blundering, fish out the water, and basically no one.

They know that and they don't want that. They want him to be awesome, and the only awesome they consider in the SW is if you were a Jedi, and so they want him to be a Jedi.

They really should give Finn a chance to prove himself in TLJ, and then they'll see that he's awesome for who he is, and not because he's FS, Luke's estranged kid, or both or the Chosen One.

He's Finn. He's a Big Deal.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:I wish Finn would be more like John Boyega (confident, assertive, vibrant) and less like... well... Finn.

But then that would be confusing the character for the actor, I know. However I know John loves this character a lot. This character is basically his big break. We know that he wouldn't allow his alter ego to become a 2nd rate side character the fans are so afraid he might be.

And the fact that they're so afraid is because they've only seen Finn for what he is in TFA; confused, blundering, fish out the water, and basically no one.

They know that and they don't want that. They want him to be awesome, and the only awesome they consider in the SW is if you were a Jedi, and so they want him to be a Jedi.

They really should give Finn a chance to prove himself in TLJ, and then they'll see that he's awesome for who he is, and not because he's FS, Luke's estranged kid, or both or the Chosen One.

He's Finn. He's a Big Deal.

@Rei of Sunshine

I think one of the reasons why Finn worked, despite the fact that I don't feel like JJ and Larry Kasdan gave him as much thought as they should have, is really due to the fact that John played him. He's a very charismatic dude, and in the scenes where he was alone with Harrison Ford, like, HARRISON F*CKING FORD, he actually managed to never get overshadowed. That takes some serious skill.

So yeah, it's only a good thing that Finn is the hero of his own plot in TLJ. That will give John the opportunity to really shine, and especially if the chemistry with KMT is great (and I have no doubt it is).

MeadowofAshes wrote:

If Finn is Force sensitive I see it in more of a Leia/Chirrut/(I'd even argue Han here with his inordinate amount of "luck") way. There's active "I use the Force" types. And there are characters who more closely resemble folks IRL who can "hear the Spirit" or have strong gut feelings. The Force, in this way, is a metaphor for our intuition/sensitivity to God's messages (if you're the religious or spiritual type, which Lucas was). Finn resembles this type at the Jakku village. The Force/his conscience awakens and he makes the right choice. I just hope Rian makes his characterization more consistent (*cough* and cuts back on the OTT behavior)

@MeadowofAshes

well, since I'm an atheist it's no wonder I can relate more to the "normal" characters.  

I have to admit I kind of like the idea of an "natural energy field" all living things produce and that can be manipulated by certain people to do supernatural things like levitating and so on- BUT I loathe it when they make the force a kind of conscious being that can make decision or influence happenings and people. My interpretation of the force was always more "scientific" than spiritual.

That's why the whole "chosen one" concept was a big meeehh for me.

Night Huntress wrote:

I have to admit I kind of like the idea of an "natural energy field" all living things produce and that can be manipulated by certain people to do supernatural things like levitating and so on- BUT I loathe it when they make the force a kind of conscious being that can make decision or influence happenings and people. My interpretation of the force was always more "scientific" than spiritual.

That's why the whole "chosen one" concept was a big meeehh for me.

@Night Huntress

I was into Harry Potter when I saw the PT so I didn't really mind the Chosen One thing. But putting it in a certain perspective, maybe the Force is an entity, not one to be worshipped like a god, but more like to understand and accept, like nature.

And maybe the Chosen One and all these prophecies were only created by the old Jedi who treated the Force like a religion, and a religion normally needed a 'chosen one'. This could explain why there has been so much turmoil over the balance of the Light and the Dark.

This actually reminds me right now of how the Sith and Jedi fight against each other yet both believe in the Force and are similar to how Christians and Muslims have fought for hundreds of years due to religious conflict, when ironically the Quoran and Bible are basically the same book written in different languages and with a different messiah, and God and Allah are one and the same.

Although I am curious, if you view the Force as scientific, what's your take in the possible 'Adam and Eve' role that Rey and Kylo might have in the ST?

Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Night Huntress

I was into Harry Potter when I saw the PT so I didn't really mind the Chosen One thing. But putting it in a certain perspective, maybe the Force is an entity, not one to be worshipped like a god, but more like to understand and accept, like nature.

Yeah, EXACTLY! That's how I see it.

And maybe the Chosen One and all these prophecies were only created by the old Jedi who treated the Force like a religion, and a religion normally needed a 'chosen one'. This could explain why there has been so much turmoil over the balance of the Light and the Dark.

This actually reminds me right now of how the Sith and Jedi fight against each other yet both believe in the Force and are similar to how Christians and Muslims have fought for hundreds of years due to religious conflict, when ironically the Quoran and Bible are basically the same book written in different languages and with a different messiah, and God and Allah are one and the same.

Although I am curious, if you view the Force as scientific, what's your take in the possible 'Adam and Eve' role that Rey and Kylo might have in the ST?

@Rei of Sunshine

Adam and Eve role in what way? In the metaphorical way? I think there are many different ways you can interpret a story / myth. Kylo and Rey are often referred to as "yin and yang" -"In Chinese philosophy, yin and yang (陰陽 yīnyáng, lit. "dark-bright", "negative-positive") describe how seemingly opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they may give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another. Many tangible dualities (such as light and dark, fire and water, expanding and contracting) are thought of as physical manifestations of the duality symbolized by yin and yang. " That's how I see them. But unlike most religious people I accept and respect different opinions.[/b]

@MeadowofAshes - hahaha! I love that you put your teacher's big red pen right through that passage and made the corrections. I have to admit that it's been so long since I went through my mythology phase that Hades and Persephone didn't even occur to me until I started thinking "did other people see that?" and started finding what people had written. Although I do definitely remember that the version I read as a kid, while she does get kidnapped, she also ends up very much in control of her relationship with Hades by the end of the story.

The main things with the Chosen One trope these days is that you have writers like George Lucas and JK Rowling who created wildly successful works which kickstarted creative industries, who then seek to replicate that formula. Like you have your classics such as LotR, the Hobbit, Wizard of Oz, A Wrinkle in Time, The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe et cetera with those types of heroes/heroines. Or even orphans like Jane Eyre, Anne of Green Gables or James and the Giant Peach. But now when I happen to browse the YA section in a bookstore or library, it's predominantly more the fantastic and always about one person whose unassuming appearance/life belies the mantle of greatness they must accept.

Night Huntress wrote:

Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Night Huntress

I was into Harry Potter when I saw the PT so I didn't really mind the Chosen One thing. But putting it in a certain perspective, maybe the Force is an entity, not one to be worshipped like a god, but more like to understand and accept, like nature.

Yeah, EXACTLY! That's how I see it.

And maybe the Chosen One and all these prophecies were only created by the old Jedi who treated the Force like a religion, and a religion normally needed a 'chosen one'. This could explain why there has been so much turmoil over the balance of the Light and the Dark.

This actually reminds me right now of how the Sith and Jedi fight against each other yet both believe in the Force and are similar to how Christians and Muslims have fought for hundreds of years due to religious conflict, when ironically the Quoran and Bible are basically the same book written in different languages and with a different messiah, and God and Allah are one and the same.

Although I am curious, if you view the Force as scientific, what's your take in the possible 'Adam and Eve' role that Rey and Kylo might have in the ST?

@Rei of Sunshine

Adam and Eve role in what way? In the metaphorical way? I think there are many different ways you can interpret a story / myth. Kylo and Rey are often referred to as "yin and yang" -"In Chinese philosophy, yin and yang (陰陽 yīnyáng, lit. "dark-bright", "negative-positive") describe how seemingly opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they may give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another. Many tangible dualities (such as light and dark, fire and water, expanding and contracting) are thought of as physical manifestations of the duality symbolized by yin and yang. " That's how I see them. But unlike most religious people I accept and respect different opinions.[/b]

@Night Huntress

Adam and Eve, basically using the term loosely as they are a man and a woman. But yes to all you've said. It's how we've all seen them since TFA came out. Yin and Yang, Dragon Tiger, Adam and Eve, Fire and Ice, bride and groom

All these are honestly in your face details, not to mention how they were both dressed in TFA with contrasting yet similar outfits, and up until now I do not understand how some fans missed that.

Most of us here see the Adam and Eve as an alt route for the Chosen One, which only required one person, and how balancing the Force seems to overwhelming for a single person. Why not two people instead? One for the dark side and another for the light. Other than the fact that it does lend more to the great Force lore, it also seems like a good way to ease the die hard OT fans into the idea of a 'grey' area in the Force.

Also, it's a great way to introduce romance to the Force plot.

MeadowofAshes wrote:There. That's better.

Night Huntress wrote:

IoJovi wrote:
I don't understand why Finn has to be Force sensitive and end up with the heroine to be a compelling character in his own right. Luke Skywalker never got the girl (incest aside).  Han wasn't Force sensitive.  Yet both are iconic to the point where they are household names.  

@IoJovi

I always liked Han more than Luke...

Yes, I always liked Han (and Leia) more than Luke, even though Luke is the only one of the trio who becomes a Jedi, so I don't understand why Force sensitivity matters. It's better to give Finn his own plot than to have him follow around Rey all the time.

Thought this was an interesting thread of discussion about audience expectations for movies, or really any piece of pop culture from Matt Zoller Seitz, who's a film critic for NY Magazine and RogerEbert.com. His argument isn't so much that audiences shouldn't expect a "the customer is always right" experience from creators, but that it's probably healthier to expect to be the experience/engagement itself. In this example, he's talking about the type of vitriol a lot of people have towards Mother! in likely going in expecting a typical JLaw movie and instead getting hit with something more challenging. Reminds me of seeing box office signs for Pan's Labrynth and The Tree of Life b/c so many people walked out demanding refunds.

Also thought his comments are interesting because he's very pro-TFA and has tackled the whole "Rogue One is better than Force Awakens" type of binary argument. You can like one or the other, you can like both -  it's not an either/or competition. You can even appreciate the reasons why something didn't click with you. Seeing Rogue One and spending enough time reading fan comments and positive reviews that it's "more Star Wars" has made me realize that there are some type of fans whose enjoyment/enthusiasm comes from the immersion in that type of fictional universe and world building. Which Rogue One has those details, such as Easter Eggs for Rebels, and the entire story/world is tied up in the universe created for the first movie and that time period in the "history" of that fictional universe. Which are interesting details, but they're not the meat of what I'm particularly interested in. It's more the storytelling, character development, and relationships, and use of classic literature/myths/fairy tales and cinema which has my attention. Different interests for different members of the audience and in the end, we can only invest ourselves in the experience. Whether or not something plays out to our personal satisfaction, like how I got hooked more into the ST versus R1 really didn't do it for me. There's no guarantee but the experience itself and even if it's bad, there's still the opportunity to think/engage with something. Which is something both @helix and @frolickingfizzgig have both pointed out here, ultimately the creators owe us nothing beyond the experience of the film.

Another good one from Twitter, which are the type of talking points that outta come up in response to some of the "Rey should be a role model" type comments. In retrospect, Leia should've kept the Princess title

@snufkin

I always figured that teaching your son to like princesses WAS part of feminism. Edit: Ah, now I see that "feminist" is in quotes.

I love this article: How to Raise a Feminist Son

 Offer open-ended activities, like playing with blocks or clay, and encourage boys to try activities like dress-up or art class, even if they don’t seek them out, social scientists say. Call out stereotypes. (“It’s too bad that toy box shows all girls because I know boys also like to play with dollhouses.”) It could also improve the status of women. Researchers say the reason parents encourage daughters to play soccer or become doctors, but not sons to take ballet or become nurses, is that “feminine” equals lower status.

"Tell him to kiss my pander"

Oh, Rian, how we love you

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/909912126415765504

@cowgirlsamurai - Yep, Theriault has written before about the disingenuousness of parents who think raising their kids to look down on things which are traditionally female counts as feminism. Like "my daughter hates pink and loves Star Wars because she's into X-Wings and lightsabers." Or some of the more dumbass/misogynistic comments that if you are curious about the relationship between the heroine and the villain in the ST and want to discuss it, including film/literature theory, that makes you a stupid, delusional fangirl who's into Twilight : P.

Theriault's awesome and she's also a huge fan of Leia in TFA. It felt in TPM that Lucas wrote Padme to be like one of these real-life warrior queen/stateswomen from Western history. Unfortunately, he blew it in the next two movies.

Not gonna lie, one thing that really annoyed me as of late was how going from "princess" to "general" was seen by many as being some sort of upgrade, and I can finally put the why into words.

Because, honestly, a female character should be judged by her accomplishments and her agency. Not by her titles, or whether she wears a dress or pants (I mean Tiana from The Princess ans the Frog was mind-blowingly awesome while wearing a dress), or by the amount of time she spends talking (because you could have 60% of the dialogue but say a lot of nonsense).

@Irina de France

I think that Leia is portrayed as trying to suppress that identity for any number of possible reasons. Painful memories? Because of the way people treat princesses (too formally? don't take her seriously? like a celebrity? or a figurehead without any real political knowledge or power?). Who knows? Maybe she thinks that if people don't treat her like she's anything "special," she'll get more done.
She seems pretty miserable as the General, though, so I wouldn't call that an upgrade (but that probably has more to do with her family's status than anything). It's funny that people still call her Princess behind her back, and even C3PO makes that slip in front of her
I was hoping for a kickass Leia moment in the ST, but it seems that anything like that would've been saved for Episode 9. I wonder if we'll get to see her as anything but sad in TLJ.

nemapasara wrote:

@nemapasara

Yep. That makes sense. I was a bit reluctant to the speculation of the October the 30th. It seemed to close to the premiere, asTFA trailer was released on October the 19th, and R1 on October the 16th.

I can't wait!

Well, why don't LF release a trailer on a day that does not involve an All American event. A sign for the bigger world out there that is also part of the SW fandom and has limited interest in American football. Just saying, after the "I did not realize some languages actually distinguish plural from singular and female from mascular forms", could be cool. Yeah, still salty about that one because I am starting to see it in all French and German feeds. I was at the cinema this WE and they already had the TLJ poster which made me grin until I saw the title and the plural form in German. I say, release on October 3rd, day of the reunification in Germany. Just because. It's also sooner Even better, you release it only in Germany on October 3rd and rest of the World on 9th

SanghaRen wrote:Well, why don't LF release a trailer on a day that does not involve an All American event. A sign for the bigger world out there that is also part of the SW fandom and has limited interest in American football. Just saying, after the "I did not realize some languages actually distinguish plural from singular and female from mascular forms", could be cool. Yeah, still salty about that one because I am starting to see it in all French and German feeds. I was at the cinema this WE and they already had the TLJ poster which made me grin until I saw the title and the plural form in German. I say, release on October 3rd, day of the reunification in Germany. Just because. It's also sooner Even better, you release it only in Germany on October 3rd and rest of the World on 9th

@SanghaRen

LOL
I can even pretend the release date has something to do with the Croatian Indepedndace day which October the 8th.


On the serious note:

NFL Monday Night - is East Coast Night or West Coast night? Not that I plan to stay awake and wait for it, but nonetheless I like to know,

SanghaRen wrote:Well, why don't LF release a trailer on a day that does not involve an All American event. A sign for the bigger world out there that is also part of the SW fandom and has limited interest in American football. Just saying, after the "I did not realize some languages actually distinguish plural from singular and female from mascular forms", could be cool. Yeah, still salty about that one because I am starting to see it in all French and German feeds. I was at the cinema this WE and they already had the TLJ poster which made me grin until I saw the title and the plural form in German. I say, release on October 3rd, day of the reunification in Germany. Just because. It's also sooner Even better, you release it only in Germany on October 3rd and rest of the World on 9th

@SanghaRen

I would like for once to wake up with good news, but usually everything happens when I have afternoon or evening.

It seems Mark deleted his tweet.

https://makingstarwars.net/2017/09/star-wars-last-jedi-trailer-coming-october-9th/

We'll see what's gonna happen next