The Last Jedi Trailer(s): NO SPOILERS

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Some thoughts on the past week…

It’s become clear to me that most amazing thing about this forum is the members’ capacity to adjust theories based on new reveals. Before TFA hardcore fans latched onto theories like Reywalker, Rey Solo, FinnRey, Snoke/Plagieus, etc. and when they saw the movie, they automatically engaged in mental gymnastics in an attempt to gather evidence for their favourites. Reylo, on the other hand, is the only theory that was born from the movie itself, and that’s why—to this day—it’s largely the only theory that has real narrative potential. We created the theory not because we wanted it to be true or we wanted to win some nonexistent fantasy football game that started before TFA’s release, but because we felt it would make for a good story. To this day, despite how satisfying it’s been to be to see all the fan groups who were condescending toward our theory lose all their theories to #canon, that has remained our #1 incentive. A good story.

Because all we want is a good story we’re capable of weighing options, theories and taking new canon into consideration in a way many other fans simply can’t. Over the past two years we’ve remoulded our theories to fit new contexts at every turn. The most memorable would have to be  losing kid Ben Solo who was corrupted by Snoke and fell in his teens. Most early Reylos were rather confident in that theory, even though it turned out to be quite false. Despite how attached we were, we let it go, accepting that, if Ben’s backstory was potentially changed, it was changed for a good reason… because whatever Rian came up with was ultimately the better story. And it really was. Raw power Rey and Kylo is my new jam, tbh. I’m a big Naruto fan and anything that reminds me of the literal demon trapped inside the main character that goes out of control against friend and foe gets me hyped.

Side-note, but I’m hyped for Rey and Luke now in a way I wasn’t before the trailer. When everybody figured Luke was going to be a crazy, disenfranchised hermit who would ultimately be redeemed by and train Rey I was like “Meh, sure, whatever”. But now that Luke’s scared of her because she reminds him so much of Ben… sIGn Me UpPpPppp!1!!111!!! Bonus points if Rey actually killed her parent(s) and ends up hurting her mentor with the flick of a wrist. I need me some guilty, confused Rey in my life (a.k.a. flawed, nuanced Rey). Meanwhile, everybody was too busy calling Rey a Mary Sue to think… hey, maybe this overwhelming power will actually be part of the story.

Months ago we talked about protagonists who contain a literal-on-a-story-level darkness (Naruto, Harry Potter) and those who are tempted by an ultra powerful darkness (Frodo and the Ring), and to my immense satisfaction Rey’s joining the first fold rather than the #toopureforthisworld fold. Thank freaking god, Rian. That dynamic was not only getting tired as hell, it always would have been received poorly by antis—confirming on some level what they’ve been whining about over two years with regards to Kylo taking over the story and Rey being relegated to the role of Skywalker love-interest.

I honestly wonder if JJ’s original backstory for Kylo and “version” of Reylo wasn’t more “man of dark, woman of light”, and this was one of the big changes Rian made when he came in during TFA’s production. He didn’t want a power struggle between Rey and Kylo with one representing goodness and the other representing temptation balancing each other, he wanted a dynamic of Force equals who both struggle to control their overwhelming and probably destructive Force abilities. What do you guys think? Is this one of the “changes” Rian made?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Some thoughts on the past week…

It’s become clear to me that most amazing thing about this forum is the members’ capacity to adjust theories based on new reveals. Before TFA hardcore fans latched onto theories like Reywalker, Rey Solo, FinnRey, Snoke/Plagieus, etc. and when they saw the movie, they automatically engaged in mental gymnastics in an attempt to gather evidence for their favourites. Reylo, on the other hand, is the only theory that was born from the movie itself, and that’s why—to this day—it’s largely the only theory that has real narrative potential. We created the theory not because we wanted it to be true or we wanted to win some nonexistent fantasy football game that started before TFA’s release, but because we felt it would make for a good story. To this day, despite how satisfying it’s been to be to see all the fan groups who were condescending toward our theory lose all their theories to #canon, that has remained our #1 incentive. A good story.

Because all we want is a good story we’re capable of weighing options, theories and taking new canon into consideration in a way many other fans simply can’t. Over the past two years we’ve remoulded our theories to fit new contexts at every turn. The most memorable would have to be  losing kid Ben Solo who was corrupted by Snoke and fell in his teens. Most early Reylos were rather confident in that theory, even though it turned out to be quite false. Despite how attached we were, we let it go, accepting that, if Ben’s backstory was potentially changed, it was changed for a good reason… because whatever Rian came up with was ultimately the better story. And it really was. Raw power Rey and Kylo is my new jam, tbh. I’m a big Naruto fan and anything that reminds me of the literal demon trapped inside the main character that goes out of control against friend and foe gets me hyped.

Side-note, but I’m hyped for Rey and Luke now in a way I wasn’t before the trailer. When everybody figured Luke was going to be a crazy, disenfranchised hermit who would ultimately be redeemed by and train Rey I was like “Meh, sure, whatever”. But now that Luke’s scared of her because she reminds him so much of Ben… sIGn Me UpPpPppp!1!!111!!! Bonus points if Rey actually killed her parent(s) and ends up hurting her mentor with the flick of a wrist. I need me some guilty, confused Rey in my life (a.k.a. flawed, nuanced Rey). Meanwhile, everybody was too busy calling Rey a Mary Sue to think… hey, maybe this overwhelming power will actually be part of the story.

Months ago we talked about protagonists who contain a literal-on-a-story-level darkness (Naruto, Harry Potter) and those who are tempted by an ultra powerful darkness (Frodo and the Ring), and to my immense satisfaction Rey’s joining the first fold rather than the #toopureforthisworld fold. Thank freaking god, Rian. That dynamic was not only getting tired as hell, it always would have been received poorly by antis—confirming on some level what they’ve been whining about over two years with regards to Kylo taking over the story and Rey being relegated to the role of Skywalker love-interest.

I honestly wonder if JJ’s original backstory for Kylo and “version” of Reylo wasn’t more “man of dark, woman of light”, and this was one of the big changes Rian made when he came in during TFA’s production. He didn’t want a power struggle between Rey and Kylo with one representing goodness and the other representing temptation balancing each other, he wanted a dynamic of Force equals who both struggle to control their overwhelming and probably destructive Force abilities. What do you guys think? Is this one of the “changes” Rian made?

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I do like Han, but all of this is very melodramatic if you ask me So that blaster would still be there for the OT fans - and I am one - so they can say “she still has Han’s blaster” *tears rolling down their cheeks* Sorry for the sarcasm. It’s one of these days where it comes up as a defense mechanism to cope with whatever sith is bugging me.

I guess I am more interested in Rey embracing the Force. And it would probably annoy me less if it was kept on the left side and not so predominant. I mean what is she going to do with it? Shoot at Kylo. Like that worked the first time around. Yeah, I know, I am complaining about a toy making sense...

Still, I am curious to see if maybe they will change something in the design. Maybe they got new information and have to adapt? Change Rey’s right hand so it fits into Kylo’s hand and kids - young and less young - can replay a TLJ scene. Or add a pair of yellow eyes...

@DarthRen

I am not so sure about the MF ultimately being Rey’s. What if Poe survives - although based on the trailer, it’s looking grim - and he gets it at the end. Personally, I would not mind if neither Rey nor Ben keeps it. Now that would be a fresh start. I know, I know, it would piss off some people. I do wonder if Chewie will indeed return home at the end of the trilogy - he can’t die, please no.

@SanghaRen

Not sure why Poe should get it. There is no emotional pay off or value to him for this unlike Rey or Ben. Just because he's an awesome pilot?

@DarthRen

Yes. Pilot to pilot. New adventures. I have zero emotional connection to the MF by the way. It’s fun, but objects mean little to me in terms of memories. It’s just that the awesome force users who on top of it are awesome MF pilots just sounds restrictive to me like the universe suddenly shrunk. It goes from a smuggler, a princess and a Jedi with their different set of skills in the OT to 2 who have it all. Don’t get me wrong, I do like the two, but I also enjoy it when things are a bit spread over the character ensemble so having someone else than the force superstar duo taking ownership of the MF would make sense to me.

@SanghaRen

I hope no one hates me for this, but I want the Falcon to be destroyed. Either late into TLJ or in Act 1 of Ep IX

It would be the ultimate symbol of letting go of the past (OT) and of defeat and hopelessness.

If it gets destroyed in TLJ, it will really impact the story and the audience. It's like losing Han all over again. Kylo and Rey will be affected too personally. But then there's a chance that it'll magically be repaired (by Chewie and Maz ofc) and at the end of Ep9, it'l be given to Ben and Rey for their honeymoon trip to symbolize that Star Wars now entirely new.

If it gets destroyed in Act 1 of Ep9, then maybe it's never coming back.

Honestly to me, it's like Hedwig or Primrose dying.

*ducks blaster bolts*

IoJovi wrote:  
@FrolickingFizzgig

Lordy Fizz, I'd give this post 1000 likes, if I could. 

This is brilliant.  Although I've been 100% confident of Reylo in some form, I've never had a good grasp on how it would happen until this week.  All the pieces are coming together and it's absolutely beautiful!  I wouldn't be shocked at all if Rey was abandoned because just like Ben, her parents were afraid of her.  Even if their story won't be complete by the end of TLJ, it'll be clear Rey will have such a better understanding of Kylo and his motivations, good or bad, and as a result, will empathize with him.  Maybe even fall in love....

vaderito wrote:

IoJovi wrote:  
@FrolickingFizzgig

Lordy Fizz, I'd give this post 1000 likes, if I could. 

This is brilliant.  Although I've been 100% confident of Reylo in some form, I've never had a good grasp on how it would happen until this week.  All the pieces are coming together and it's absolutely beautiful!  I wouldn't be shocked at all if Rey was abandoned because just like Ben, her parents were afraid of her.  Even if their story won't be complete by the end of TLJ, it'll be clear Rey will have such a better understanding of Kylo and his motivations, good or bad, and as a result, will empathize with him.  Maybe even fall in love....

@IoJovi

I especially like the conclusion that you never know why headcanon burts is good - there may be even better canon. Like in case of ben turning. #RAWPOWAH beats the original headcanon to a pulp.

I'm just not sure that anything could ever top the waterfall headcanon.  

nite0wl29 wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:@“Rei of Sunshine”: I actually also thought about the MF being destroyed but did not dare to say it aloud You know “let the past die, kill it if you have to”. The tagging of composed names still does not work on my ipad so I hope you see the post anyway.

@DarthRen: yeah, but with Ben, we come back to things having to be passed down the family tree and this message is to me a bit archaic. I think things can be passed down to someone who actually wants it and would use it properly. And Ben potentially getting both the legacy lightsaber and MF would be much. I think when someone wants to move away that much from his past, he doesn’t one day wake up and say “Actually, I did not realize it before, but I do want it.” I mean, in the end, it’s probably going to go the way you say, to not have a full generation of people cry their eyes out over a ship, but I like to think that maybe it will go another less expected way.

At the same time, I think Kylo haters would cry their eyes out too if he gets the MF. So there’s no perfect solution. Yeah, let it crash and burn

@SanghaRen

With all the Kylo haters I would love to know their reasoning for the hate had Vader survived in RotJ. I mean, the blood on his hands is far more than Kylo's. I certainly never heard the cries when Obi Wan died. The hypocrisy is ridiculous. BTW, I've been staring at your gif for probably 5 minutes trying to type this lol

IoJovi wrote:

vaderito wrote:

IoJovi wrote:  
@FrolickingFizzgig

Lordy Fizz, I'd give this post 1000 likes, if I could. 

This is brilliant.  Although I've been 100% confident of Reylo in some form, I've never had a good grasp on how it would happen until this week.  All the pieces are coming together and it's absolutely beautiful!  I wouldn't be shocked at all if Rey was abandoned because just like Ben, her parents were afraid of her.  Even if their story won't be complete by the end of TLJ, it'll be clear Rey will have such a better understanding of Kylo and his motivations, good or bad, and as a result, will empathize with him.  Maybe even fall in love....

@IoJovi

I especially like the conclusion that you never know why headcanon burts is good - there may be even better canon. Like in case of ben turning. #RAWPOWAH beats the original headcanon to a pulp.

I'm just not sure that anything could ever top the waterfall headcanon.  

@vaderito

I was probably one of the few here who never had the headcanon of Ben falling at 15 and simultaneously being the one who dropped Rey off on Jakku, or at least being linked to it.   In fact, I was grateful when Bloodlines debunked that because I never really liked the idea of them having met before.  I wanted that first initially meeting in the forest on Takadona to stay exactly that - the first time they had met.  

Also, that was just one more nail in the Reywalker coffin, and I couldn't have been more pleased with that.  As for Ben falling at 23, I interpreted it as someone who managed to fight off Snoke just that much longer, rather than someone who was making a choice to go dark as an adult rather than a teen.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:

DarthRen wrote:

SanghaRen wrote:I do like Han, but all of this is very melodramatic if you ask me So that blaster would still be there for the OT fans - and I am one - so they can say “she still has Han’s blaster” *tears rolling down their cheeks* Sorry for the sarcasm. It’s one of these days where it comes up as a defense mechanism to cope with whatever sith is bugging me.

I guess I am more interested in Rey embracing the Force. And it would probably annoy me less if it was kept on the left side and not so predominant. I mean what is she going to do with it? Shoot at Kylo. Like that worked the first time around. Yeah, I know, I am complaining about a toy making sense...

Still, I am curious to see if maybe they will change something in the design. Maybe they got new information and have to adapt? Change Rey’s right hand so it fits into Kylo’s hand and kids - young and less young - can replay a TLJ scene. Or add a pair of yellow eyes...

@DarthRen

I am not so sure about the MF ultimately being Rey’s. What if Poe survives - although based on the trailer, it’s looking grim - and he gets it at the end. Personally, I would not mind if neither Rey nor Ben keeps it. Now that would be a fresh start. I know, I know, it would piss off some people. I do wonder if Chewie will indeed return home at the end of the trilogy - he can’t die, please no.

@SanghaRen

Not sure why Poe should get it. There is no emotional pay off or value to him for this unlike Rey or Ben. Just because he's an awesome pilot?

@DarthRen

Yes. Pilot to pilot. New adventures. I have zero emotional connection to the MF by the way. It’s fun, but objects mean little to me in terms of memories. It’s just that the awesome force users who on top of it are awesome MF pilots just sounds restrictive to me like the universe suddenly shrunk. It goes from a smuggler, a princess and a Jedi with their different set of skills in the OT to 2 who have it all. Don’t get me wrong, I do like the two, but I also enjoy it when things are a bit spread over the character ensemble so having someone else than the force superstar duo taking ownership of the MF would make sense to me.

@SanghaRen

I hope no one hates me for this, but I want the Falcon to be destroyed. Either late into TLJ or in Act 1 of Ep IX

It would be the ultimate symbol of letting go of the past (OT) and of defeat and hopelessness.

If it gets destroyed in TLJ, it will really impact the story and the audience. It's like losing Han all over again. Kylo and Rey will be affected too personally. But then there's a chance that it'll magically be repaired (by Chewie and Maz ofc) and at the end of Ep9, it'l be given to Ben and Rey for their honeymoon trip to symbolize that Star Wars now entirely new.

If it gets destroyed in Act 1 of Ep9, then maybe it's never coming back.

Honestly to me, it's like Hedwig or Primrose dying.

*ducks blaster bolts*

MindAndMagic wrote:The basis for shared #rawpower was definitely always there in TFA, it's just a matter of when did it evolve into a more defined story concept. I personally get the sense that JJ and RJ have and continue to work closely together to create a cohesive story, so it's not so much that Rain changed anything, but rather expanding upon plot threads that were only hinted at in the first instalment and I think he is doing a very good job at that. Rey and Kylo's connection in TFA was mysterious enough for Rian to take it into whatever direction he desired (which was obviously approved by LF, otherwise they would have reacted like they've done on two separate occasions recently).

I too never had any particular headcanons with regards to Ben's fall, so I wasn't surprised when we found out it happened only 6 years prior to TFA. It's hard to say whether they changed it from a manipulation-induced attack to an accidental rampage caused by the #rawpower acting out, i.e. an unfortunate accident, but because we now know Luke was present when it happened AND he seems genuinely afraid and traumatised by the memory of it, it looks like the latter is much more likely. He is afraid of another disaster happening, this time with Rey because he sees a shadow of his nephew in her/a reminder of his own failure. In any case, I don't think this scenario excludes the possibility of Snoke manipulating young Ben from early childhood/maybe even before birth as subtly indicated in Bloodline. It seems very logical to me that he would go to him in desperation after the accident because he has no other choice and Snoke would only try to antagonise him further against his family to use his power.

I don't know if JJ initially saw Rey and Kylo's dynamic as more of a classic light/dark dichotomy, but I'm glad Rian is taking it in this direction, it's much more interesting and could give some much needed internal conflict, nuance and depth to Rey's character. It seemed all too easy in TFA with her being super powerful and thus prompting all the Mary Sue talk, but TLJ will demonstrate it's not as straightforward/not that great when it's revealed that not only is it a destructive, immensely dangerous power that is hard to control, but it is also the very same power possessed by her enemy.

SanghaRen wrote:

@DarthRen: yeah, but with Ben, we come back to things having to be passed down the family tree and this message is to me a bit archaic. I think things can be passed down to someone who actually wants it and would use it properly. And Ben potentially getting both the legacy lightsaber and MF would be much. I think when someone wants to move away that much from his past, he doesn’t one day wake up and say “Actually, I did not realize it before, but I do want it.” I mean, in the end, it’s probably going to go the way you say, to not have a full generation of people cry their eyes out over a ship, but I like to think that maybe it will go another less expected way.

At the same time, I think Kylo haters would cry their eyes out too if he gets the MF. So there’s no perfect solution. Yeah, let it crash and burn

snufkin wrote:The whole Ben fell at 15, killed everybody except for Rey and dumped her on Jakku theories, I don't know where those came from. Because that's not what I saw in TFA, like @iojovi said, based on his behavior (though they have some major explaining to do about why he killed LST and the village). It wasn't until after I saw TFA for a 2nd time because of my suspicions that I even went online to see what others thought and my brain exploded from Reddit theories and School Shooter/MRA hot takes. I'd thought that he'd killed them but that it was some type of battle where he got outed like Leia in Bloodline and it was a kill or be killed situation. Which I was like WTF? Or that he'd been kidnapped and broken down/turned based on his estrangement from his family and society. Which you see in figures (at least here in the States) like Patty Hearst or Bowe Bergdahl. Who are both victims and collaborators. That's what I thought, but Raw Power is so much more elegant, simple, and unifying for everything. Even explains what Leia went through during her pregnancy, that was an ancient power in the Force released by her and Han conceiving Ben.

Also I really hope that Rey didn't blow up her parents. I mean, they could go that route. But that seems like she wouldn't be so much able to identify with Ben over patricide and matricide as much as horribly guilty/devastated. I do think that if she showed some of these nascent powers when she was little, she either would've been cast out in the proverbial woods like Hansel and Gretel or Snow White. Or that like Finn, her family was targeted as part of The Empire Needs Children but at least were able to keep her out of the FO's hands despite the personal costs.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:


I think the theory became popular after a Youtube video where someone connected Rey as Luke's daughter to Kylo wiping out the Jedi at the temple and then abandoning his kid cousin on Jakku.

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I would also like to see the Millennium Falcon destroyed. It should have gone with Han really because it now feels like a redundant relic of the past. It’s not like destroying it in the ST would be the end for it because we have the anthology movies, comics, books, animated series. In that sense, the MF is immortal but the saga movies should have new ships with the chance to become iconic. I also kind of feel that way about C-3PO and R2-D2... I grew up with those droids and I do love them, I just think we need to move on. C-3PO should perish with Leia as he’s sort of become her right-hand droid. R2-D2 should go when Luke goes or go into long term hibernation. By the end of the ST, I feel the new characters should have come to the fore and the remnants of the past should be laid to rest. Like I said, nothing ever really dies in Star Wars so I would personally welcome an out with the old and in with the new Spring clean by the end of Episode IX.