Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

@cowgirlsamurai wrote: Does anyone else find a disconnect in Kylo’s desperation to be like Vader in TFA and his determination to kill the past and get rid of legacies in TLJ? Like, did losing to Rey make him think, “Welp, I failed at the Vader thing, so I guess I’ll go the opposite direction.”  Question

@cowgirlsamurai

I don't really see a disconnect, so much as I see a shift in his priorities, which I think has a lot to do with Snoke. My interpretation, the first Snoke/Throne room scene sets the ball rolling on Kylo discarding his whole Vader obsession and fulfilling his role as Vader's heir. I see his desperation to be like Vader as a direct result of Snoke's grooming, but when Snoke smacks him down this time, it's really the straw that broke the camels back. He's told he'll never be like Vader, he's a child in a mask. Kylo's given Snoke everything and it's still not enough. Kylo destroying the mask is him giving up on that "dream". Then not soon after Rey manifests and it opens up a whole new realm of possibilities, which leads him to the conclusion that they both need to let the past die and make a new start together. Of course, our boy doesn't really go about this the right way.

@Cowgirlsamurai I think that, because Kylo is the antagonist, many people will always believe that he's just using or manipulating Rey. It wouldn't matter if he delivered a long monologue in TLJ about how much he loves Rey. Many in the audience will only believe it when Kylo does something genuinely selfless.

@Tex

Yeah. I guess he gives up the Vader dream when he smashes the helmet. But then he’s still acts superior to Rey with the “You have no place in this story,” assuming she’ll side with him because he, Darth freaking Vader’s grandson, cares about her even though she’s “nothing.” He’s pleased that she has no legacy (Which makes me think he’s like: “She’s not my cousin! Hehehe”).

@Saracene

Yes, my husband’s even in the “Kylo dying will bring the saga full circle, by ending those ‘bad news’ Skywalkers” camp. It doesn’t matter that he and Rey tenderly touched hands while looking in to each others eyes, that he killed Snoke, or that Han and Luke essentially died for him. His motives will be seen as completely selfish and eeeevilll until he does something for Rey/Leia/The Resistance that doesn’t gain him power. I hope the big name fanboys who still write Reylo off as “imaginary” get smacked over the head with reality in IX and it makes them see that it was there all along.

@Cowgirlsamurai Yeah basically the way you view Kylo's actions towards Rey may depend a lot on how you see the character in general and where you think his story is ultimately going.

I think most of the audience who don't have a deep investment in Kylo being the eeeevil Big Bad of the series or posterboy for some social issue will accept the facts pretty easily.

rawpowah wrote:@DeeBee Thank you for the update! I can't figure out how to access the databank, so I'm thrilled that you're posing all the latest info.

I'm laughing @ "exulted" I guess it was more of an internal thing.

@rawpowah
-awh great rawpowah, I'm so glad to hear others want to see these updates I eat up this new content so happy to share it..

Just in case you are new to the databank.. When exploring the databank there will be two new places for info - the main page, and then the gallery section so make sure you check both.. If you find any updates and can - please share with us  

I've recently shared a few really intersting articles in the takodana section's general discussion from starwars.com also..

Cowgirlsamurai wrote: ...That entry sounds exactly like my husband’s reading of the film. He gets my “romantic” take on things, but he thought Kylo just wanted Rey for her powers. It just highlights how ambiguous they’re keeping the story. Crossing our fingers that Episode IX’s ending solidifies the romance.

Does anyone else find a disconnect in Kylo’s desperation to be like Vader in TFA and his determination to kill the past and get rid of legacies in TLJ? Like, did losing to Rey make him think, “Welp, I failed at the Vader thing, so I guess I’ll go the opposite direction.”  

@Cowgirlsamurai
-yeah it's all a bit frustrating that the romance is not explicitly acknowledged, even though IMHO it's explicitly portrayed in the movie!
Ambiguous is spot on I think. I need to keep reminding myself that it is ambiguous... and that I don't see the movie the way that maybe the GA do.. it's an interesting phase in the journey.
There's a part of me that really hopes we can get a new novelisation of the last jedi - updated with more internal POV for both Kylo/Ben and Rey! But I think that is probably wishful thinking on my part!

A lot of people, I think, are seeing the scene where Kylo screams at Luke "I'll destroy her" as proof of his eeeeevil. But to me it practically shouts: "jilted lover." Kylo is a walking emotional wound who channels his pain into anger, he isn't angry at Rey. He's hurt.

The "I destroy heeer" is one the most ironic lines from the movie. Everybody knows that Kylo will NEVER destroy her. He literally had the chance TWICE (first in TFA and then in TLJ) and instead of pushing her off the cliff/killing her with his saber, decided to propose. It's one of the constants of his character – his entire world falls apart, but Rey is the beacon of light that is always there.

Piper Maru wrote:The "I destroy heeer" is one the most ironic lines from the movie. Everybody knows that Kylo will NEVER destroy her. He literally had the chance TWICE (first in TFA and then in TLJ) and instead of pushing her off the cliff/killing her with his saber, decided to propose. It's one of the constants of his character – his entire world falls apart, but Rey is the beacon of light that is always there.

@Piper Maru

And for some reason everybody forgets what Kylo's final scene was or fails to realize that the way you last see a character in a "cliffhanger" sort of ending in the middle of a trilogy where you wait years between updates matters. And the last we see of Kylo is far from evil, destructive, or angry at Rey. It's exactly the opposite, just like in TFA where the last we see of him is him staring at Rey from a vulnerable position on the ground in sort of awe and no anger or rage despite her mutilating his face and beating him. That mattered, so does TLJ's final Kylo scene. But the majority seems blinded to that for reasons I don't get.

He regrets his choice. Will Rey regret hers?

motherofpearl1 wrote:He regrets his choice. Will Rey regret hers?

@motherofpearl1

Good question. Watching the newest SWC podcast they pointed out something I never really thought about. What if Rey hadn't rushed to him after the hand-touch Force-Skype? What if she had waited and let their relationship develop more?
With her impulsive decision to go to him she put him in an impossible situation.

So it's not only her regretting turning down his proposal- it's also about her choice to ship herself to the Supremacy without a plan and thinking about the consequences for Ben.

Now...that's an interesting observation. For me what stuck in my mind was Rey's conviction that Ben returning to the Light would win the war - in short, saving him would save the 'greater good.' Yet the more I see the film, the more I am convinced that Kylo's primary goal in killing Snoke wasn't to rule the galaxy - that came after. It was to save Rey. Kylo put Rey first. And sadly....she doesn't realise how much that should mean to her. And I can't help but think that in TFA the Resistance - even Leia - put destroying Starkiller before saving Rey - or Kylo, for that matter. It was Finn who chose Rey over the 'greater good.' Now Kylo has. Rey is going to realise this.

rawpowah wrote:@Starliteprism I didn't see the search bar lol. Thank you.

@rawpowah

Don't blame you! It kinda blends in.

hi all, just wanted to say Rey's starwars databank entry has been updated.. (HERE). I added it to her thread which is in the IX section. thought I'd mention it here as there is a second reference to Kylo wanting to create a new galactic order.
[It tickles my funny bone that this is an 'NGO'! - [no profit organisation independent of government - rofl!]

Hey, Rey's gallery has also been updated on starwars.com - it seems to have completed her story to the end of TLJ. and there is of course loads about Kylo/Ben.
See here: http://www.reyloskyforum.net/t665p150-the-heroine-s-journey-rey-s-journey#194714
Where I've shared them in Rey's thread.

-FYI it addresses the closing of the connection!

DeeBee wrote:hi all, just wanted to say Rey's starwars databank entry has been updated.. (HERE). I added it to her thread which is in the IX section. thought I'd mention it here as there is a second reference to Kylo wanting to create a new galactic order.
[It tickles my funny bone that this is an 'NGO'! - [no profit organisation independent of government - rofl!]

Hey, Rey's gallery has also been updated on starwars.com - it seems to have completed her story to the end of TLJ. and there is of course loads about Kylo/Ben.
See here: http://www.reyloskyforum.net/t665p150-the-heroine-s-journey-rey-s-journey#194716
Where I've shared them in Rey's thread.

-FYI it addresses the closing of the connection!

@DeeBee

What is also interesting in addition to the repetition of the New Galactic Order is that it says that she "turned her back on Kylo". There is no mention of him betraying her or any kind of hostile language like that. It doesnt even mention that he refused to save the Resistance. Instead it says that she turned on him and was disillusioned. You're not disillusioned with someone who is evil. You are disillusioned when you care about someone. You are disillusioned when something that you were so sure about doesn't work out the way you thought it would or should.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

DeeBee wrote:hi all, just wanted to say Rey's starwars databank entry has been updated.. (HERE). I added it to her thread which is in the IX section. thought I'd mention it here as there is a second reference to Kylo wanting to create a new galactic order.
[It tickles my funny bone that this is an 'NGO'! - [no profit organisation independent of government - rofl!]

Hey, Rey's gallery has also been updated on starwars.com - it seems to have completed her story to the end of TLJ. and there is of course loads about Kylo/Ben.
See here: http://www.reyloskyforum.net/t665p150-the-heroine-s-journey-rey-s-journey#194716
Where I've shared them in Rey's thread.

-FYI it addresses the closing of the connection!

@DeeBee

What is also interesting in addition to the repetition of the New Galactic Order is that it says that she "turned her back on Kylo". There is no mention of him betraying her or any kind of hostile language like that. It doesnt even mention that he refused to save the Resistance. Instead it says that she turned on him and was disillusioned. You're not disillusioned with someone who is evil. You are disillusioned when you care about someone. You are disillusioned when something that you were so sure about doesn't work out the way you thought it would or should.

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah very interesting no mention of letting the resistance die.. but the content is still unfolding so at the moment - This may come up in the kylo entry - we shall see!

I love the bolded! someone was disillusioned with the big bad? aren't they dumb. they are the big bad! haaaaa.. *sarcasm*
[collider recently declared he has fully turned to the dark side. so silly Rey for being disillusioned with someone who is 100% eeeeevil!]

"kylo did turn" - what does this mean???

I initially thought it meant he turned his lightsaber to kill Snoke but i don't think it means that?

Riri wrote:"kylo did turn" - what does this mean???

I initially thought it meant he turned his lightsaber to kill Snoke but i don't think it means that?

@Riri

He turned against Snoke to save her, that's what it means.

http://bastila-bae.tumblr.com/post/174005670210/but-that-didnt-feel-much-like-a-victory-x
Did you post this @DeeBee? I can't find some of your post...

Moonlight13 wrote:
http://bastila-bae.tumblr.com/post/174005670210/but-that-didnt-feel-much-like-a-victory-x
Did you post this @DeeBee? I can't find some of your post...

@Moonlight13

LOVE. THIS!!

He got everything he thought he wanted but feels more miserable than ever.

IoJovi wrote:

Moonlight13 wrote:
http://bastila-bae.tumblr.com/post/174005670210/but-that-didnt-feel-much-like-a-victory-x
Did you post this @DeeBee? I can't find some of your post...

@Moonlight13

LOVE. THIS!!  

He got everything he thought he wanted but feels more miserable than ever.

@IoJovi
I know...

Moonlight13 wrote:
http://bastila-bae.tumblr.com/post/174005670210/but-that-didnt-feel-much-like-a-victory-x
Did you post this @DeeBee? I can't find some of your post...

@Moonlight13

whoooo have they updated the kylo gallery?! I went out and missed it! Yeah sorry the link I shared originally to the update for Rey's gallery was broken because that comment got deleted (due to me accidentally double posting in my excitement over this new content lol. how embarassing.) I've added back the images in the Rey thread [see here]
I've been busting to see Kylo's databank updated lol. thanks so much for sharing this with us moonlight13 you made my day!! I'm so excited!! Awh Rey shut him out. wow isn't this the most fabulous summing up of where he is left??!!! he hasn't ascended to supreme leader - he has descended!!
'But that didn't feel much like a victory.' - OMG!!!!! I love this!!!!!!

I can go ahead and share the rest of the images here with you guys? I figure if there is a character we want all of them to be shared for it's Kylo/Ben!
Edited to add: here are the new Kylo biography gallery slides..














& the slide Moonlight13 shared..
source: https://www.starwars.com/databank/kylo-ren-biography-gallery

Ben saw Rey's future AND past? This is the first confirmation we have of this!!

Riri wrote:Ben saw Rey's future AND past? This is the first confirmation we have of this!!

@Riri

I was thinking the same!
Well well, that part is really interesting! The novelization somehow implied that Kylo had seen only her past but it didn't feel right to me (after all he already saw Rey's past during the interrogation scene), I knew there had to be something else!  
Now I wonder: same vision with different interpretation or different future moments? Oh man what I'd give to have look at their vision

@cherrylipstick

Exactly! Do you think this was changed to reflect ep9 script or it was always the case? Fry worked with Rian and it outright states that Kylo saw her past in the novel.

I was thinking they probs did see their future together neither light nor dark.

Riri wrote:@cherrylipstick

Exactly! Do you think this was changed to reflect ep9 script or it was always the case? Fry worked with Rian and it outright states that Kylo saw her past in the novel.

I was thinking they probs did see their future together neither light nor dark.

@Riri

Fry said that he had to keep Kylo's thoughts vague and mysterious because we'll find out more in the next movie, so it's possible that they deliberatly decided to keep it more secretive. I really hope that we'll see more.

Maybe they saw a combination of different glimpses of past and future moments like Rey did when she touched the lightsaber the first time. But there must be something so specific and strong (a kiss, a hug, children...) that convinced both of them.