Discussion: Podcasts

To be honest, my impression is that many of the long-time SW fans just lose the sight of how simple and optimistic the OT was. I had a conversation with my brother who was a huge SW fan for years and consumed everything SW-related: EU books, games, etc. He said that after 15 years or so of being immersed in an expanded universe that was way more complex than what the movies allowed, he finds the simplicity of the new trilogy boring (the old trilogy is of course different because of the haze of nostalgia/childhood memories). He's at least completely self-aware about it. I often see this desire from the big SW fans for the series to "grow up" and become darker and more morally ambiguous, but looking at the ST films so far, I just see no reason *not* to look at the story through the prism of the OT's spirit of optimism and simple messages of good conquering evil, love saving the day, etc. I see no reason to be open to all possibilities when the nature of the series only allows limited options for the outcome.

My take is to let people enjoy what they enjoy. Personally, I like to hear what people outside of the Reylo community think but I totally get why others prefer to stay within the community. What I don't like is when fans start to fight over who's the best fan. As a fan of ASOIAF/GoT and SW I'm so tired of people trying to out-fan each other, it's toxic.

It doesn't matter to me if someone is arguing that the story is going to go a certain way based on canon lore, literary analysis or media coverage/interviews. If you like Star Wars, can provide a good argument and is civil towards those who disagree with you then I'm happy. From what I've seen, I've yet to encounter anything that makes me doubt Reylo.

Saracene wrote:To be honest, my impression is that many of the long-time SW fans just lose the sight of how simple and optimistic the OT was. I had a conversation with my brother who was a huge SW fan for years and consumed everything SW-related: EU books, games, etc. He said that after 15 years or so of being immersed in an expanded universe that was way more complex than what the movies allowed, he finds the simplicity of the new trilogy boring (the old trilogy is of course different because of the haze of nostalgia/childhood memories). He's at least completely self-aware about it. I often see this desire from the big SW fans for the series to "grow up" and become darker and more morally ambiguous, but looking at the ST films so far, I just see no reason *not* to look at the story through the prism of the OT's spirit of optimism and simple messages of good conquering evil, love saving the day, etc. I see no reason to be open to all possibilities when the nature of the series only allows limited options for the outcome.

@Saracene

I don't want to paint all old EU people with a broad brush, because of people like your brother and the old EU fans here ... but a lot of those old EU fans just turned into Luke worshippers, and though maybe some of said worshippers may say that they want moral ambiguity, their reception of Kylo says otherwise.  There are a bunch of people coming from that sector of the old EU fan base who wanted Kylo to be shot down like a rabid dog after TFA even though it was clear that Kylo was not a classic SW villain. And I imagine that a lot from that same sector think Kylo is irredeemable because he became Renperor. They ignore the circumstances of him becoming Renperor, and they seem to think that by the mere act of him becoming Renperor, he has to immediately morph into Palpatine. That kind of thinking from those Luke worshippers reflects a real desire for simplistic black and white thinking.

But at the same time, I agree, the old EU has made some of these folks forget the actual tenor of the OT movies. In the books Jaina kills her brother. In the movies, Luke saves his father.

Yeah the interim period after the OT ended and before LF started producing films is definitely where this mindset started to develop and take hold. Along with the whole mainstreaming of sci-fi/fantasy fandom as part of popular culture and an activity people center their social lives and identities around. Versus being somebody who's like "I remember this being very straight forward and optimistic." I just find it a bit hard to take that we're supposed to give fanboy theories which grew out of that 30 or so year institutional culture a fair listen when besides our own experiences with a relatively hostile fandom at large, Rey's entire arc is about thinking she needs to find a (male) hero to show her what her place is in the larger picture, appeals to the two legacy sons for their bona fides and education (Luke and Ben), and ultimately has the epiphany of Dorothy Gale, the power was within her all along. And just to drive that home further to the audience, LF has made the point of having Han Solo say "Women always figure out the truth" and Yoda saying "The girl, Rey, has everything she needs." That's a meta commentary on fandom culture and that female fans don't need to get permission or interact with things like Force lore/the history under the guidance of the (predominantly male) legacy fans in order to get things right or experience it the way it's "supposed" to be experienced. You even get Rian Johnson chiming in on a discussion with pulling out a particular quote used in it, a very loaded quote if you've studied literary theory and feminism, Audre Lord's "The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House."

Sadly a lot of fans haven't picked up on that theme because they're too fixated on Luke and making sure that his arc plays out in a way that doesn't threaten their idealization of that character and how they've centered the franchise around the male gaze/perspective/being the default PoV for the story.

@SoloSideCousin
I'm from the old EU-fanbase - and I admit the main reason I didn't like TFA at first was because I had difficulties to let go of the EU characters I used to love.

BUT I was aware of my own "problems" and while TFA had many flaws it wasn't the reason I personally didn't like it back then.

After the prequels we were left to believe there wouldn't be another movie after RotJ- so all we had was the EU for many years.
I actually grew up together with the legend kids from Han & Leia...read about them as little children and how they grew up into teenagers and adults. So I had a emotional attachment to them.

Anyway - there were many remarkable good books and stories in the EU but I had the impression the authors and story groups went out of ideas.
AND while they killed of many new characters including Anakin Solo (oh how I HATED them for it! I wanted to burn Star by Star ) and after I finally started to like Jacen they made him fall to the dark side (which made no sense after all he went through without becoming dark) BUT the OT main characters always survived and acted like they were still in their twenties most of the time.  
I was never a Luke- worshipper. He was too perfect and boring... I liked his EU wife much better  

I don't know what I expected in the ST- I hoped they will take all the good stuff from the EU und erase the bad ones. But of course that's not how it works... they needed a fresh start. And I kind of liked that they made the OT characters more human and flawed.

I try to remember what I thought of Kylo when TFA came out... I know that I rewatched it after more than a year because I saw Adam in an interview and liked him- yeah that was a surprise because at first I was like...they casted that guy as Han and Leia's son
Well- good thing I'm not the kind of person to spread hate and mention everywhere how much I hate a movie or an actor because that would've been very embarrassing after I changed my mind so drastically.

Why do people do that by the way? I'll never get it. I personally don't like the prequels - but I don't hate them or make a podcast or a blog just to ramble about how much I HATE something. That's such a waste of energy
I love to watch youtube videos or hear podcasts where people talk and analyze things or even make a parody/fun- but just to spread negativity? Are they feeling better after that? Maybe? I don't know - it would make me even more miserable.

Saracene wrote:To be honest, my impression is that many of the long-time SW fans just lose the sight of how simple and optimistic the OT was. I had a conversation with my brother who was a huge SW fan for years and consumed everything SW-related: EU books, games, etc. He said that after 15 years or so of being immersed in an expanded universe that was way more complex than what the movies allowed, he finds the simplicity of the new trilogy boring (the old trilogy is of course different because of the haze of nostalgia/childhood memories). He's at least completely self-aware about it. I often see this desire from the big SW fans for the series to "grow up" and become darker and more morally ambiguous, but looking at the ST films so far, I just see no reason *not* to look at the story through the prism of the OT's spirit of optimism and simple messages of good conquering evil, love saving the day, etc. I see no reason to be open to all possibilities when the nature of the series only allows limited options for the outcome.

@Saracene

Especially since the likes of Kathleen Kennedy have come out and literally said that the ST is keeping up that traditional spirit of Star Wars being about hope and compassion. I don't know how much clearer they can be.

ZioRen wrote:

Saracene wrote:To be honest, my impression is that many of the long-time SW fans just lose the sight of how simple and optimistic the OT was. I had a conversation with my brother who was a huge SW fan for years and consumed everything SW-related: EU books, games, etc. He said that after 15 years or so of being immersed in an expanded universe that was way more complex than what the movies allowed, he finds the simplicity of the new trilogy boring (the old trilogy is of course different because of the haze of nostalgia/childhood memories). He's at least completely self-aware about it. I often see this desire from the big SW fans for the series to "grow up" and become darker and more morally ambiguous, but looking at the ST films so far, I just see no reason *not* to look at the story through the prism of the OT's spirit of optimism and simple messages of good conquering evil, love saving the day, etc. I see no reason to be open to all possibilities when the nature of the series only allows limited options for the outcome.

@Saracene

Especially since the likes of Kathleen Kennedy have come out and literally said that the ST is keeping up that traditional spirit of Star Wars being about hope and compassion. I don't know how much clearer they can be.

@ZioRen

I don't have the link, but there is an interview where Rian all but laughs out loud at the idea of Ben not being redeemed.  He goes onto say something along the lines that while the ball is in JJ's court now, he had set TLJ up for a redeemed Ben Solo, and the fact that people don't anticipate it seems strange to him.  I'm paraphrasing of course, but the fact he was that candid made my jaw drop.  

If someone has it, please feel free to share.

IoJovi wrote:

ZioRen wrote:

Saracene wrote:To be honest, my impression is that many of the long-time SW fans just lose the sight of how simple and optimistic the OT was. I had a conversation with my brother who was a huge SW fan for years and consumed everything SW-related: EU books, games, etc. He said that after 15 years or so of being immersed in an expanded universe that was way more complex than what the movies allowed, he finds the simplicity of the new trilogy boring (the old trilogy is of course different because of the haze of nostalgia/childhood memories). He's at least completely self-aware about it. I often see this desire from the big SW fans for the series to "grow up" and become darker and more morally ambiguous, but looking at the ST films so far, I just see no reason *not* to look at the story through the prism of the OT's spirit of optimism and simple messages of good conquering evil, love saving the day, etc. I see no reason to be open to all possibilities when the nature of the series only allows limited options for the outcome.

@Saracene

Especially since the likes of Kathleen Kennedy have come out and literally said that the ST is keeping up that traditional spirit of Star Wars being about hope and compassion. I don't know how much clearer they can be.

@ZioRen

I don't have the link, but there is an interview where Rian all but laughs out loud at the idea of Ben not being redeemed.  He goes onto say something along the lines that while the ball is in JJ's court now, he had set TLJ up for a redeemed Ben Solo, and the fact that people don't anticipate it seems strange to him.  I'm paraphrasing of course, but the fact he was that candid made my jaw drop.  

If someone has it, please feel free to share.

@IoJovi

What did you expect from people who were wrong for 2 years? They'll be wrong again, and again, and again

Saracene wrote:To be honest, my impression is that many of the long-time SW fans just lose the sight of how simple and optimistic the OT was. I had a conversation with my brother who was a huge SW fan for years and consumed everything SW-related: EU books, games, etc. He said that after 15 years or so of being immersed in an expanded universe that was way more complex than what the movies allowed, he finds the simplicity of the new trilogy boring (the old trilogy is of course different because of the haze of nostalgia/childhood memories). He's at least completely self-aware about it. I often see this desire from the big SW fans for the series to "grow up" and become darker and more morally ambiguous, but looking at the ST films so far, I just see no reason *not* to look at the story through the prism of the OT's spirit of optimism and simple messages of good conquering evil, love saving the day, etc. I see no reason to be open to all possibilities when the nature of the series only allows limited options for the outcome.

@Saracene
All of this. Matt Martin was Tweeting the other day about Star Wars being all about hope and love and that jazz. The movies thus far give me no reason not to look at the final chapter through that lens, even more so than The Last Jedi's darker middle chapter (which, let's be real, is still all about hope for the future and inner good conquering pride and failure). Like, people who want something more "complex" out of SW probably need to seek out other franchises to fill that void because between Rose's "Not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love" and Luke's "Nobody's ever really gone" the ST's finale is not going to satisfy them that way.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Saracene wrote:To be honest, my impression is that many of the long-time SW fans just lose the sight of how simple and optimistic the OT was. I had a conversation with my brother who was a huge SW fan for years and consumed everything SW-related: EU books, games, etc. He said that after 15 years or so of being immersed in an expanded universe that was way more complex than what the movies allowed, he finds the simplicity of the new trilogy boring (the old trilogy is of course different because of the haze of nostalgia/childhood memories). He's at least completely self-aware about it. I often see this desire from the big SW fans for the series to "grow up" and become darker and more morally ambiguous, but looking at the ST films so far, I just see no reason *not* to look at the story through the prism of the OT's spirit of optimism and simple messages of good conquering evil, love saving the day, etc. I see no reason to be open to all possibilities when the nature of the series only allows limited options for the outcome.

@Saracene
All of this. Matt Martin was Tweeting the other day about Star Wars being all about hope and love and that jazz. The movies thus far give me no reason not to look at the final chapter through that lens, even more so than The Last Jedi's darker middle chapter (which, let's be real, is still all about hope for the future and inner good conquering pride and failure). Like, people who want something more "complex" out of SW probably need to seek out other franchises to fill that void because between Rose's "Not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love" and Luke's "Nobody's ever really gone" the ST's finale is not going to satisfy them that way.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Lord, Matt Martin was on a role the other day!  I participated in a few responses to him, and he liked all of them.  I think I have some of them saved.   Here is one of mine that he liked.  The Stay Strong was in response to a bunch of Reylo shippers tweeting that he had given them hope.  

I complained on another thread last week that Jedi Council (since we're on the podcast thread) had this weird duality going on. They have said they know the franchise is primarily for 12 year olds, as George Lucas himself said as recently as last year. They all love ESB, as well as TLJ, for being more complex than many other SW movies or media. They are not whining about how Han or Luke died. They are open to Reylo happening on some level in IX and think it would be more interesting than Rey-Poe. They generally believe the Rey-Kylo connection will be important. Kylo is in fact their favorite character, and they love his complexity.

But they are 100% confident there will be no redemption, and that he will surpass Vader in terms of darksidedness. He would now sacrifice his three-dimensional complexity they love so much to be a straightforward Evil Bad Guy like in every superhero movie, when they themselves complain about the villain problem many big tentpoles have? They are okay with their Jedi hero Rey (who some believe will be training Jedi kids in the next installment, despite her knowing very little and the whole point about the Jedi Order in TLJ being that the Jedi failed through fault of their own in the prequels) having a romance with the evil guy? Why? Some believe he needs to die, maybe Rey would have to kill him. How does this facilitate the furthering of the SW story, characters, message, and franchise? The cycle of violence and messed-up Skywalkers would just continue. They like the feel-good optimism of the OT, but that somehow does not apply anymore to these new movies (the reason some liked the bleaker RO). Yet at the same time they would have IX be the most boring, non-nuanced story of Rey with Jedi killing bad guys, despite enjoying the different directions TLJ took.

Some pointed out Adam Driver is young and the character is marketable, so he could live. But how would uber-evil Kylo alive at the end of IX bring closure to the 9-part saga about the Skywalkers? Apparently he is this maturing villain on a villain's journey, yet nobody brings up, or maybe even notices, how defeated and sad and pathetic he is at the end of TLJ. What about the messages Rian spelled out for everyone? Failure is the greatest teacher, and they all love that Yoda part, but somehow this doesn't apply to Kylo? Saving what we love, not destroying what we hate? Many people across the internet didn't like the line, and especially in the context of what Rose did just before she said it, but still, they told you the point of movie, the trilogy, and how this very long series will end (at lest for now) during the climax of TLJ and no one notices or cares or realizes this will carry over into the next film.

They are all big GoT fans, and I have read the books and seen parts of the show too, but their claims they know SW is made with mostly kids in mind doesn't actually play out because they expect GoT levels of moral ambiguity and tragedy. Kristian Harloff hadn't been there the week they discussed Kylo, so I went back for the next week's episode like an idiot, even though I said I wouldn't, and regretted it and had to stop listening. Other segments of fandom have the freedom to say whatever they want, others' thoughts aren't inherently bad, and being in a bubble/echo chamber isn't always good either, but when others ignore major parts of the movies and even quotes from Rian about how he didn't peel back all these layers from Kylo just to determine he's some bad guy who needs to die, it's not very useful or informative to listen to many other people. I've even been avoiding Red Letter Media lately because some of their film analysis and commentary on SW and its fandom became rather shallow and even sort of petty, and I'm not sure if I want to see their next Plinkett review.

When the majority of takes on SW make very little sense in the context of SW itself, beyond just that TLJ subverted expectations and muddied the waters a little, and therefore SW can do anything it wants now, we don't have to listen to the silliness. The above mini-essay is why we are not required to listen to major mainstream outlets just so we can be well-rounded. I watched Jedi Council for just a couple of months, because as others pointed out in the last few pages, these kinds of groups are very knowledgable about canon, though they admit the old EU was mostly lame and repetitive, and they know all the SW news every week. But that does not mean they understand SW or storytelling better than anyone else. Kristian Harloff hadn't been there the week they discussed Kylo, so I went back for the next week's episode like an idiot, even though I said I wouldn't, and regretted it. Okay, actually not going back, I swear!  

People are going to have FITS when IX comes out and I kind of can't wait. Meanwhile we'll be doing happy dances and victory laps. The script isn't even finished yet but I need December 2019 to come now!

@californiagirl To me it seems like the Jedi Council hosts know there's a segment of fans who like Rey and Kylo and want them to be together, and there's a segment who hate Kylo's guts and want him to die an evil villain, or think he's Vader and Palpatine's evil lovechild who will now function as a generic Marvel villain. As a result, they try to play both sides to keep their viewership because they know both will tune in. From your comment, they don't sound genuine when they say they'd be open to Kylo and Rey as a relationship because everything they say after that contradicts it.

Additionally, they could also claim to be open to a possible relationship in case IX does go there, and that way they can claim they've been onto this development for years and brag about it and how good they are at predicting things on their show, even though they didn't get anything right.

And man, speaking of women's voices in science fiction and fantasy, RIP the great Ursula LeGuin. Who had this to say when asked to blurb a science-fiction anthology of up and coming writers where zero of the writers featured with women.



My hobby horse isn't whether or not Kylo ends up good/bad, dies/lives, or gets to take Rey to Space Prom as her boyfriend. My issues with this line of argument is that SW fandom, as with a lot of niche communities, is already a boy's club and one which has frequently tried to silence/mock the types of discussions and contributions which don't privilege their interests/experience. We see these types of discussions and voices - which have been amplified by the Internet - via blogging, social media, and podcasting that continue to push those entrenched male voice and perspectives. It's particularly bad in areas like journalism and foreign policy, let alone discussing Space Wizards, laser swords and sh*t. The former you get celebrities whose opinions, right or wrong, is treated as gospel. For SW, it's prominent or big name fans. And there's very little different in the types of systems and social behavior which make it more likely the gender of these individuals is male without any questioning of their privilege or bias.

That's 1.30a Wednesday, Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) for those of you in other time zones should you want to listen

I'm confused as to why we're giving fanboy podcasts the time of day. Their opinions didn't matter before VIII and they still don't matter now. I would never want to tell anybody what to do, but surely there are less exasperating ways to kill time. I, for one, am perfectly happy never hearing or reading a word of fanboy speculation ever again.

Tbh I think being subjected to an eternity of boys' club ST podcasts that I could never turn off would be my own personal hell.

rawpowah wrote:@californiagirl To me it seems like the Jedi Council hosts know there's a segment of fans who like Rey and Kylo and want them to be together, and there's a segment who hate Kylo's guts and want him to die an evil villain, or think he's Vader and Palpatine's evil lovechild who will now function as a generic Marvel villain. As a result, they try to play both sides to keep their viewership because they know both will tune in. From your comment, they don't sound genuine when they say they'd be open to Kylo and Rey as a relationship because everything they say after that contradicts it.

Additionally, they could also claim to be open to a possible relationship in case IX does go there, and that way they can claim they've been onto this development for years and brag about it and how good they are at predicting things on their show, even though they didn't get anything right.

@rawpowah

I know Kristian's headcanon, though he knows there is zero chance Disney would do it, is for Rey and Kylo Ren to restart the sith, so maybe that's why. Like what? It undoes the rest of the saga. He's maybe too deep in the EU of both past and present. It might also be the general lack of storytelling skill, realizing that some of the things they say son't actually work together. And he's got a 6-year old daughter who's getting more into SW, and baby daughter too, you'd think his view on the story of SW would be a little kinder and more kid-friendly.

snufkin wrote:

That's 1.30a Wednesday, Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) for those of you in other time zones should you want to listen

@snufkin

I have listened to their main TLJ review. Three of the four hosts on that episode noticed the sexual tension between Rey and Kylo. I hope it comes up during the show!

californiagirl wrote:

rawpowah wrote:@californiagirl To me it seems like the Jedi Council hosts know there's a segment of fans who like Rey and Kylo and want them to be together, and there's a segment who hate Kylo's guts and want him to die an evil villain, or think he's Vader and Palpatine's evil lovechild who will now function as a generic Marvel villain. As a result, they try to play both sides to keep their viewership because they know both will tune in. From your comment, they don't sound genuine when they say they'd be open to Kylo and Rey as a relationship because everything they say after that contradicts it.

Additionally, they could also claim to be open to a possible relationship in case IX does go there, and that way they can claim they've been onto this development for years and brag about it and how good they are at predicting things on their show, even though they didn't get anything right.

@rawpowah

I know Kristian's headcanon, though he knows there is zero chance Disney would do it, is for Rey and Kylo Ren to restart the sith, so maybe that's why. Like what? It undoes the rest of the saga. He's maybe too deep in the EU of both past and present. It might also be the general lack of storytelling skill, realizing that some of the things they say son't actually work together. And he's got a 6-year old daughter who's getting more into SW, and baby daughter too, you'd think his view on the story of SW would be a little kinder and more kid-friendly.

@californiagirl
But restart the sith as platonic bffs, right? Cuz there ain't nothing icky going on between those two.

MyOnlyHope wrote:

californiagirl wrote:

rawpowah wrote:@californiagirl To me it seems like the Jedi Council hosts know there's a segment of fans who like Rey and Kylo and want them to be together, and there's a segment who hate Kylo's guts and want him to die an evil villain, or think he's Vader and Palpatine's evil lovechild who will now function as a generic Marvel villain. As a result, they try to play both sides to keep their viewership because they know both will tune in. From your comment, they don't sound genuine when they say they'd be open to Kylo and Rey as a relationship because everything they say after that contradicts it.

Additionally, they could also claim to be open to a possible relationship in case IX does go there, and that way they can claim they've been onto this development for years and brag about it and how good they are at predicting things on their show, even though they didn't get anything right.

@rawpowah

I know Kristian's headcanon, though he knows there is zero chance Disney would do it, is for Rey and Kylo Ren to restart the sith, so maybe that's why. Like what? It undoes the rest of the saga. He's maybe too deep in the EU of both past and present. It might also be the general lack of storytelling skill, realizing that some of the things they say son't actually work together. And he's got a 6-year old daughter who's getting more into SW, and baby daughter too, you'd think his view on the story of SW would be a little kinder and more kid-friendly.

@californiagirl
But restart the sith as platonic bffs, right? Cuz there ain't nothing icky going on between those two.

@MyOnlyHope

Nah. They'll restart the sith as sibling cousins who are also twins!

@BenRey I know there are some other forum members who listen to that podcast (maybe @nonesuch?) so that's good to hear. Not sure about the listener who's volunteering to get a Porg tattooed on their a** though!

If people don’t want to talk about fanboy podcasts then they don’t need to join the conversation #sorrynotsorry

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:If people don’t want to talk about fanboy podcasts then they don’t need to join the conversation #sorrynotsorry

@Cowgirlsamurai
I totally understand your perspective and fully respect your right to listen to and post whatever you want, but I'll try to give my point of view. I apologize in advance if you already know the story. 

Two years ago about 70 of us posted in "another place" where we were bullied by the users and moderation for several months. Our crime? We saw something in TFA they didn't (or didn't want to admit they saw). Rey and Kylo wouldn't be sibling-cousin-twins, but would have a romantic and transformative connection. That thread grew huge and was the most popular thread on their forum, but they were ashamed of it. We were called "love poem fanfic writers" and eventually the thread was closed. It came out that one of the reasons the thread was shut down was because the higher ups were scared that such a popular thread would impact LucasFilm's story direction for the ST. Of course, TLJ was already written, but it goes to show how paranoid people can be when they're afraid.

For two years we were called delusional, silly fangirls. Tons of people spoke out against the story direction we were convinced would be a reality. Many of us went through countless stages of doubt. Lots of "fanboy" perspectives were posted and discussed. It felt like the whole world was convinced Rey was a Skywalker! But we persevered and look at what we got out of it. Narrative/film analysis won in the end. We predicted about 80% of TLJ based on three TFA scenes and TLJ casting rumours/a leaked photo of Finn and a girl on a horse. 

After TLJ many of us are just... tired, I guess? Rey isn't a flipping Skywalker/Solo and she and Kylo have an epic, romantic connection. We were completely right. Reylo is canon, we just don't have the final chapter yet. The battle is over for me and has been for a long time. People who don't want to see the ST through the lens it's being written (a Reylo lens)... tough luck.

I'm sorry if anything I said upset you. That was not my intention at all, I just have no care left for certain perspectives. I completely get others wanting to discuss these topics, though. Please don't let anything I or anyone else has said prevent you from doing so. 

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:If people don’t want to talk about fanboy podcasts then they don’t need to join the conversation #sorrynotsorry

@Cowgirlsamurai
Sure, but I'm just saying that expecting these guys to have anything valuable to say is like expecting Kylo's black leather glove water to be dry.

Just wanted to add, the reason we're residing in our little echo chamber here is because we actually take romantic love as a serious story element and not a silly frivolous thing that's only relevant to shippers and tumblr fangirls. It's impossible to overstate the sheer cringe factor that's often associated with the romance in the wider discussions. I know I had to overcome a mental block of sorts in order to discuss romantic Reylo in an open matter-of-fact manner in the other corners of the internet. Even now that many others have noticed the romantic/sexual undertones to the dynamic, I still get an impression that they're seen by many as ultimately inconsequential and not important to the *story*.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:If people don’t want to talk about fanboy podcasts then they don’t need to join the conversation #sorrynotsorry

@Cowgirlsamurai
I totally understand your perspective and fully respect your right to listen to and post whatever you want, but I'll try to give my point of view. I apologize in advance if you already know the story. 

Two years ago about 70 of us posted in "another place" where we were bullied by the users and moderation for several months. Our crime? We saw something in TFA they didn't (or didn't want to admit they saw). Rey and Kylo wouldn't be sibling-cousin-twins, but would have a romantic and transformative connection. That thread grew huge and was the most popular thread on their forum, but they were ashamed of it. We were called "love poem fanfic writers" and eventually the thread was closed. It came out that one of the reasons the thread was shut down was because the higher ups were scared that such a popular thread would impact LucasFilm's story direction for the ST. Of course, TLJ was already written, but it goes to show how paranoid people can be when they're afraid.

For two years we were called delusional, silly fangirls. Tons of people spoke out against the story direction we were convinced would be a reality. Many of us went through countless stages of doubt. Lots of "fanboy" perspectives were posted and discussed. It felt like the whole world was convinced Rey was a Skywalker! But we persevered and look at what we got out of it. Narrative/film analysis won in the end. We predicted about 80% of TLJ based on three TFA scenes and TLJ casting rumours/a leaked photo of Finn and a girl on a horse. 

After TLJ many of us are just... tired, I guess? Rey isn't a flipping Skywalker/Solo and she and Kylo have an epic, romantic connection. We were completely right. Reylo is canon, we just don't have the final chapter yet. The battle is over for me and has been for a long time. People who don't want to see the ST through the lens it's being written (a Reylo lens)... tough luck.

I'm sorry if anything I said upset you. That was not my intention at all, I just have no care left for certain perspectives. I completely get others wanting to discuss these topics, though. Please don't let anything I or anyone else has said prevent you from doing so. 

@FrolickingFizzgig

I know the story    I lurked here long before I joined back in March, and while I wasn’t in on the discussion in the forbidden place, I have had plenty of fanboys flame me and female fans in general for trying to sexualize the relationship between two people who were obviously rival siblings/cousins. I’m sensitive to it too, but I haven’t seen Bryan Young flame anyone. He just seems to ignore people’s comments on different outlooks for Kylo. Maybe it’s rudeness, or maybe he just doesn’t know how to respond. I haven’t heard him talk/post about Reylo at all, which I find surprising, but the rest of what he has to say about Star Wars is interesting and on the same level of some of the analyses that I’ve seen here. I was just wondering if he still had this “Kylo is doomed” outlook after seeing the film 13 more times. Some Reylos are willing to listen to commentary outside our bubble, and I thought this would be the place to ask. I was personally turned off by Full of Sith after that one episode and couldn’t listen anymore, which is too bad. Not all fanboys are the same.

I’ve had people here put me in my place before too. (As in, had my opinion put down or not valued because I wasn’t one of the original Reylos who came over from the bad place.) Also been accused of “anti behavior” when I said that I didn’t think coincidental hearts in TFA scenes were solid Reylo foreshadowing. We could all chill a bit I think. If there’s an inappropriate conversation, the mods will cut it off, or move it to where it needs to go.