Discussion: Podcasts

Saracene wrote:Just wanted to add, the reason we're residing in our little echo chamber here is because we actually take romantic love as a serious story element and not a silly frivolous thing that's only relevant to shippers and tumblr fangirls. It's impossible to overstate the sheer cringe factor that's often associated with the romance in the wider discussions. I know I had to overcome a mental block of sorts in order to discuss romantic Reylo in an open matter-of-fact manner in the other corners of the internet.

@Saracene
Oh, I'm endlessly amused that despite two years of being called delusional fangirls Rian et al. obviously considered romantic attachment to be a very real and impactful story element. 

Today I was reminiscing a bit about Death and the Maiden's initial predictions surrounding Kylo's one-sided obsession and Rey choosing the "nice guy" after her cautionary tale with the sensual villain. The irony is this is now what the antis are clinging to as a story. The very first popular Reylo meta is the best they can hope for, and it's already 100% nonsense given the fact that Rey clearly has deep feelings for Ben. Her vision gives her this look of wonder and a single tear falls down her face. She just saw Kylo killing Snoke? Sure, Jan. 

It's like they've had to slowly climb up the rungs of a ladder, accepting each step as it came to them. Funny for a bunch of geniuses who were adamant that Kylo would never develop feelings for the girl he envied and feared. Now he's making "I'm just a girl" confessions and the only thing they can cling to is retcon and the Skywalker line being wiped out. HAHAHA.

Saracene wrote:Just wanted to add, the reason we're residing in our little echo chamber here is because we actually take romantic love as a serious story element and not a silly frivolous thing that's only relevant to shippers and tumblr fangirls. It's impossible to overstate the sheer cringe factor that's often associated with the romance in the wider discussions. I know I had to overcome a mental block of sorts in order to discuss romantic Reylo in an open matter-of-fact manner in the other corners of the internet. Even now that many others have noticed the romantic/sexual undertones to the dynamic, I still get an impression that they're seen by many as ultimately inconsequential and not important to the *story*.

@Saracene

True

snufkin wrote:

That's 1.30a Wednesday, Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) for those of you in other time zones should you want to listen

@snufkin

Rian Johnson: "No one listens to what I say." I know he said this half jokingly but DAMN show this to the antis. He played Rey's theme on a banjo at the beginning of the podcast haha. Things of note:

- Rey's mirror cave scene was visually inspired by the film Under the Skin (I really need to get around to watching this).




- One version of that scene included lots of Reys going backwards in age till she was a baby being held by a shadow that you might think is the mother but would turn out to be an older Rey holding baby Tey. Really wacky.

- Rian compared Snoke to the Wizard of Oz with his theatricality and everything (another thing Reylo's discussed).

- He's adamant about not being influenced by public reaction while writing TLJ. It was literally impossible. He saw dailies while writing, but he was writing it before even seeing a rough final cut of TFA. Praised JJ's casting sensibilities. He wouldn't go back and change any of the decisions he made, even if he had the opportunity to.

- Snoke's throne room was staged and inspired by the look of Anthony Minghella's opera "Madame Butterfly."




- The curtains were not CGI but actually a huge fabric that wrapped around the set. They were edited in post by ILM to take out any creases/wrinkles and to make it look seamless.

- He had a "big a** document" on his laptop which he would update regularly and send to/discuss with Kiri Hart of the story group. He wrote down his thoughts surrounding major TFA questions i.e. Rey's parentage. He wrote down all possible scenarios. Even terrible ones. One of them included Rey as a robot. He said some of them matched Reddit theories too lol.

- On the implications of Broom Boi meaning anyone can have the force: Story is focused on Rey's hero's journey. Assuming this means they won't delve into this too much in IX.

- He was aware of George Lucas' original storyline for the ST but his chief inspiration was TFA and its script and his previous knowledge of SW. Emphasised the blank slate, how each director can do their own thing (PlotGate is back lol).

- No pushback from LF over killing Luke. Rian was breaking the story with them along the way and he didn't just want to drop the script on them as a surprise.

- The red dust on Crait was used as you can't show blood in a SW movie too much. Symbolises violence. He liked how the battle evolves into a "hellscape."

- Going to be in charge of the entire plot front to back for his trilogy. Sounds like he may be directing all three or at least majorly involved with all. May try to squeeze in directing original movies in between or beforehand.

- He was offered a lot of franchise projects after doing Looper. Turned them all down. Was working on a sci-fi movie with a cool premise for 1.5 yrs after doing Looper but couldn't crack the script so he dropped it. Thinks KK chose him based off Looper. After his meeting with her where he asked to think about it, he went home and watched a bunch of mountain climbing disaster documentaries for a few days lol.

He chucks in quite a lot of film references. No offence to JJ but you can tell Rian has a very extensive knowledge of film and film history. He did his research and knows his stuff.

@Kylo Rey

Just wanna say that Under the Skin is a terrific film. One of Johansson's best performances. Cannot recommend it enough.

Uhhh...so, I have a podcast. And I thought I'd mention it. Since I'm a Reylo...it's Reylo friendly. If y'all like to give us a listen, we're on SoundCloud and I-tunes.
Our most recent episode is: Balancing on the Blade of a Lightsaber (The concept of balance in Star Wars.) Naturally, I can't be trusted not to make pro-Reylo comments periodically. Fair warning: Southern accents abound - some might even call it country. In at least one part, I swear the ladies from s*** Southern Women Say would approve.

Here's the Soundcloud link:Soundcloud
I-tunes:I-tunes

I hope those links work (in case anyone is interested....)

- He was aware of George Lucas' original storyline for the ST but his chief inspiration was TFA and its script and his previous knowledge of SW. Emphasised the blank slate, how each director can do their own thing (PlotGate is back lol).

One reason this strikes me as a slightly disingenuous thing to say is that, at some point, Colin Trevorrow was disallowed from "doing his own thing."

It's just funny that this keeps becoming a discussion point, by anyone involved in these films. Since Rian so closely tried to follow J.J's script, and is now handing things back to J.J himself... well, this is basically going to wind up being J.J's series when all is said and done. And that's *fine*. I'm not sure why those involved with the films are trying to make it seem like the new Star Wars is the first six episodes of the original Twin Peaks, lol.

Aside from that, Rian seems absolutely lovely and highly intelligent.

nickandnora wrote:

- He was aware of George Lucas' original storyline for the ST but his chief inspiration was TFA and its script and his previous knowledge of SW. Emphasised the blank slate, how each director can do their own thing (PlotGate is back lol).

One reason this strikes me as a slightly disingenuous thing to say is that, at some point, Colin Trevorrow was disallowed from "doing his own thing."

It's just funny that this keeps becoming a discussion point, by anyone involved in these films. Since Rian so closely tried to follow J.J's script, and is now handing things back to J.J himself... well, this is basically going to wind up being J.J's series when all is said and done. And that's *fine*. I'm not sure why those involved with the films are trying to make it seem like the new Star Wars is the first six episodes of the original Twin Peaks, lol.

Aside from that, Rian seems absolutely lovely and highly intelligent.

@nickandnora

Not to mention sidelining Gareth Edwards when LF decided RO didn't align with their exact vision and other directors were hired on to reshoot half the movie. And most infamously, Lord and Miller being replaced by Ron Howard to redo most of Solo. Sure, LF lets directors do whatever they want.

Perhaps Rian, being given the middle installment, had more freedom than others did. He neither had to resuscitate a franchise nor bring it home.

californiagirl wrote:

nickandnora wrote:

- He was aware of George Lucas' original storyline for the ST but his chief inspiration was TFA and its script and his previous knowledge of SW. Emphasised the blank slate, how each director can do their own thing (PlotGate is back lol).

One reason this strikes me as a slightly disingenuous thing to say is that, at some point, Colin Trevorrow was disallowed from "doing his own thing."

It's just funny that this keeps becoming a discussion point, by anyone involved in these films. Since Rian so closely tried to follow J.J's script, and is now handing things back to J.J himself... well, this is basically going to wind up being J.J's series when all is said and done. And that's *fine*. I'm not sure why those involved with the films are trying to make it seem like the new Star Wars is the first six episodes of the original Twin Peaks, lol.

Aside from that, Rian seems absolutely lovely and highly intelligent.

@nickandnora

Not to mention sidelining Gareth Edwards when LF decided RO didn't align with their exact vision and other directors were hired on to reshoot half the movie. And most infamously, Lord and Miller being replaced by Ron Howard to redo most of Solo. Sure, LF lets directors do whatever they want.

Perhaps Rian, being given the middle installment, had more freedom than others did. He neither had to resuscitate a franchise nor bring it home.

@californiagirl

He probably just saw the vision JJ had in TFA and went based off that and therefore there was no need to interfere. If he came to the same vision and conclusion they did they would have no reason to change what he was doing.

whisperingwillow wrote:

californiagirl wrote:

nickandnora wrote:

- He was aware of George Lucas' original storyline for the ST but his chief inspiration was TFA and its script and his previous knowledge of SW. Emphasised the blank slate, how each director can do their own thing (PlotGate is back lol).

One reason this strikes me as a slightly disingenuous thing to say is that, at some point, Colin Trevorrow was disallowed from "doing his own thing."

It's just funny that this keeps becoming a discussion point, by anyone involved in these films. Since Rian so closely tried to follow J.J's script, and is now handing things back to J.J himself... well, this is basically going to wind up being J.J's series when all is said and done. And that's *fine*. I'm not sure why those involved with the films are trying to make it seem like the new Star Wars is the first six episodes of the original Twin Peaks, lol.

Aside from that, Rian seems absolutely lovely and highly intelligent.

@nickandnora

Not to mention sidelining Gareth Edwards when LF decided RO didn't align with their exact vision and other directors were hired on to reshoot half the movie. And most infamously, Lord and Miller being replaced by Ron Howard to redo most of Solo. Sure, LF lets directors do whatever they want.

Perhaps Rian, being given the middle installment, had more freedom than others did. He neither had to resuscitate a franchise nor bring it home.

@californiagirl

He probably just saw the vision JJ had in TFA and went based off that and therefore there was no need to interfere. If he came to the same vision and conclusion they did they would have no reason to change what he was doing.

@whisperingwillow
Yeah, I get the feeling Rian had a unique experience working as a LF director. I bet if you asked Lord and Miller or Trevorrow they would all give you a very different description of how tight the higher-ups' control is over their films. Like, maybe Rian's perspective involved being given free reign to do pretty much whatever he wanted because LucasFilm liked his vision and work ethic so much. He got things done ahead of schedule and put his heart into everything (whether every detail of TLJ was a hit or not). What more could they really have asked for?

It's funny. At the end of the day Plotgate may only be as real as a director's vision is clear. 3/5 directorial teams so far have required intervention from LucasFilm. It's interesting to think about.

I'm actually starting to see this as less of a "PlotGate" thing at all, and more of a "Disney/LF has had major problems hanging onto directors in a ridiculously short spans of time, but Rian Johnson played very nice, and continues to play very nice, and is trying to rewrite the narrative that Disney/LF are really, really difficult to work with, and also gets a nice, shiny Star Wars Trilogy to play with as a reward."

This ain't no PlotGate, people.

(Again, understand that I love Rian to bits. But I think he's basically being incredibly diplomatic, and essentially a good employee.)

nickandnora wrote:I'm actually starting to see this as less of a "PlotGate" thing at all, and more of a "Disney/LF has had major problems hanging onto directors in a ridiculously short spans of time, but Rian Johnson played very nice, and continues to play very nice, and is trying to rewrite the narrative that Disney/LF are really, really difficult to work with, and also gets a nice, shiny Star Wars Trilogy to play with as a reward."

This ain't no PlotGate, people.

(Again, understand that I love Rian to bits. But I think he's basically being incredibly diplomatic, and essentially a good employee.)

@nickandnora
Rian was saying this stuff before there were problems with Trevorrow or Lord and Miller. There's evidence of Abrams saying they didn't plan out the story in any great detail as early as 2015. When this Rian Johnson PlotGate business really got underway nobody knew about the directorial issues so I can't say they had any impact on anything.

Apparently Gareth Edwards was basically wasting his time filming content for other projects during his work hours (I swear I read this somewhere so I'm sorry if I'm remembering it wrong), Lord and Miller weren't getting the job done and Trevorrow... god, who knows. I hear he's pretty infamous. So I don't know if it's LF/Disney being hard to work with or simply bad luck with directors.

And I for one don't believe they have the story planned out in any great detail. That's what they're saying and I see no reason not to believe them. Still, there's a difference between extensive planning and knowing the major themes behind your project, which they have said. As long as you have those themes down each director can hypothetically be given free reign to tell the story however they want to tell it. Ultimately their vision still has to respect the major themes.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

nickandnora wrote:I'm actually starting to see this as less of a "PlotGate" thing at all, and more of a "Disney/LF has had major problems hanging onto directors in a ridiculously short spans of time, but Rian Johnson played very nice, and continues to play very nice, and is trying to rewrite the narrative that Disney/LF are really, really difficult to work with, and also gets a nice, shiny Star Wars Trilogy to play with as a reward."

This ain't no PlotGate, people.

(Again, understand that I love Rian to bits. But I think he's basically being incredibly diplomatic, and essentially a good employee.)

@nickandnora
Rian was saying this stuff before there were problems with Trevorrow or Lord and Miller. There's evidence of Abrams saying they didn't plan out the story in any great detail as early as 2015. When this Rian Johnson PlotGate business really got underway nobody knew about the directorial issues so I can't say they had any impact on anything.

Apparently Gareth Edwards was basically wasting his time filming content for other projects during his work hours (I swear I read this somewhere so I'm sorry if I'm remembering it wrong), Lord and Miller weren't getting the job done and Trevorrow... god, who knows. I hear he's pretty infamous. So I don't know if it's LF/Disney being hard to work with or simply bad luck with directors.


And I for one don't believe they have the story planned out in any great detail. That's what they're saying and I see no reason not to believe them. Still, there's a difference between extensive planning and knowing the major themes behind your project. As long as you have those themes down each director can hypothetically be given free reign to tell the story however they want to tell it. Ultimately their vision still has to respect the major themes.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Everything you said in the last paragraph. Each director seems to have a bit of a free reign in choices as long as they build on what came before them. If Rian wanted to completely disregard the themes JJ put down in TFA than I am sure he and LF would have had a very different relationship. Instead he choose to build on what JJ started and build off the narrative that was already there and in Star Wars in general.

Armadeus wrote:@Kylo Rey

Just wanna say that Under the Skin is a terrific film. One of Johansson's best performances. Cannot recommend it enough.

@Armadeus

DUDE, reading that hit me over the head. Because the sequence it references is already iconic and already turned up in Stranger Things.

@Kylo Rey THANK YOU so much for the recap (I only listen to podcasts at the gym & I'm in a lazy rut at the moment). He does sound incredibly lovely, intelligent, and talented. Also yes @nickandnora, very diplomatic and a good employee who knows how to say the right things. Poor Trevorrow never stood a chance in comparison with this as an opening act. Random thoughts:

+ He plays the banjo?! Anybody else I'd side eye for being affected (looking at you Wes Anderson), but coming from him I buy it. Still don't think that merits somebody getting a banjo playing Porg tattoed on their a**.
+ Yeah the Under the Skin, Wizard of Oz,  and Minghella's production of Madame Butterfly references? He's a nerd the way a lot of us here are nerds, curious/into a variety of different things. Which is why the hardcore, obsessive and nerdy 100% about Star Wars fans didn't figure things out. Because they're only immersed in one specific fictional universe and work.

@nickandnora Agreed. Maybe LF just doesn't want to come across as some kind of domineering monster out to control and silence creative thought? It's kind of problematic in a way to think of a company hiring talented creatives only to puppet their every action. I can understand why KK wouldn't want that kind of reputation. Imagine their pitch "hi talented director x. you have the opportunity to make a SW movie! *except not really because this company is a machine, the story is already written, and we already know exactly what we want you to do."

Obviously no creative gets to just do just anything. Like I don't think something like Chewbacca dying again in the new canon or Jar-Jar showing up on Ahch-To to chill with Rey would've flown. It is disingenuous to say so. TLJ was the only production since the Disney acquisition that wasn't plagued by hiccups. Even TFA had major writing issues at first. Seems like, as a writer/director, you're given creative freedom so long as you're doing an awesome job (if it's not working out, it makes sense you might be let go. That's any job). I'm sure passion for SW, having a vision, and just being a warm, positive person helps too. No wonder Rian had such a great experience. In the end, I don't really buy either extreme ("do whatever tf you want" or "we are God do our bidding"). The truth is a balance, as it usually is.

Edit: Like others here, I also fully believe Rian when he says he was given the freedom to follow his vision. He just did what any good writer would know to do. He analyzed the story that came before, got to know its characters in depth, considered character dynamics and themes, thought about how he could challenge each character, and then wrote the next chapter. Of course his thinking lined up with J.J.'s. Both clearly know how storytelling works.

whisperingwillow wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

nickandnora wrote:I'm actually starting to see this as less of a "PlotGate" thing at all, and more of a "Disney/LF has had major problems hanging onto directors in a ridiculously short spans of time, but Rian Johnson played very nice, and continues to play very nice, and is trying to rewrite the narrative that Disney/LF are really, really difficult to work with, and also gets a nice, shiny Star Wars Trilogy to play with as a reward."

This ain't no PlotGate, people.

(Again, understand that I love Rian to bits. But I think he's basically being incredibly diplomatic, and essentially a good employee.)

@nickandnora
Rian was saying this stuff before there were problems with Trevorrow or Lord and Miller. There's evidence of Abrams saying they didn't plan out the story in any great detail as early as 2015. When this Rian Johnson PlotGate business really got underway nobody knew about the directorial issues so I can't say they had any impact on anything.

Apparently Gareth Edwards was basically wasting his time filming content for other projects during his work hours (I swear I read this somewhere so I'm sorry if I'm remembering it wrong), Lord and Miller weren't getting the job done and Trevorrow... god, who knows. I hear he's pretty infamous. So I don't know if it's LF/Disney being hard to work with or simply bad luck with directors.


And I for one don't believe they have the story planned out in any great detail. That's what they're saying and I see no reason not to believe them. Still, there's a difference between extensive planning and knowing the major themes behind your project. As long as you have those themes down each director can hypothetically be given free reign to tell the story however they want to tell it. Ultimately their vision still has to respect the major themes.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Everything you said in the last paragraph. Each director seems to have a bit of a free reign in choices as long as they build on what came before them. If Rian wanted to completely disregard the themes JJ put down in TFA than I am sure he and LF would have had a very different relationship. Instead he choose to build on what JJ started and build off the narrative that was already there and in Star Wars in general.

So you think the third and final director/writer gets to single-handedly decide how this all ends? And that they decided to leave this decision in the hands of Colin Trevorrow originally?

I personally don't buy it, but only because I'm seeing the seeds of way too much specific stuff in TFA (more specific than just "romantic Reylo!") But I guess we won't be able to confirm or deny those seeds until 2019.

I'm just saying that the way Rian is describing the process is a little unrealistic. I think they were given a little more than a theme, a blank piece of paper, a time limit and good wishes. This didn't go down like some stream of consciousness writing exercise in Grade 12 Writer's Craft class.

(I'm biased because I'm coming at this as a very specific type of reader/writer though, I suppose.)

@nickandnora
No, that's not what I'm saying and I don't think that's what I described. They have major themes planned out. For example: "dark/light romance" and "villain who hides behind a mask and transforms as the story unfolds." That's how they're choosing to approach this. These directors/writers are creating sequels, not separate stories that aren't meant to connect. 

I am NOT saying that they are allowed to do whatever they want. They aren't.

Trust me, I was very bothered by this whole thing for a long time, but I've had to just let it go. They aren't lying. They do give the directors creative freedom (Rian created Rose and told the version of Reylo he wanted to tell), but ultimately if JJ had walked into the IX treatment read and said "I'm going to bring Luke back to life, kill off Kylo and tell the epic romance of Luke and Rey. Pure. Not even father and daughter"... that nonsense would not have left the board room. They aren't allowed to do whatever they want, but LF aren't hiring complete fools either. Like, JJ said it himself. Rian wrote the story he felt was right but it was in line with what he and Kasdan were thinking. TLJ was written as TFA was filming. They want to do a good job. 

I'm also an avid reader/writer who has always believed in planning. I'm sure I just went through all the same motions you are. This was the only "gate" that really got to me because it's just so... WTF. But ultimately I've just have to accept that they aren't writing this the way I would prefer, which would have involved a single director and writing team for all three films.

I'm not sure I'm in denial so much as wanting to hear a little more about what the day to day looked like while working on this. An interesting detail that Rian mentioned was emailing LF constantly. In that vein, I'd be especially curious to know how much one writer spoke to another writer, and if Rian was planning on talking to Colin Trevorrow (or did talk to him) about parts in his film and what he seeded, where he envisioned certain things going, etc. etc. I'm more curious if the writers themselves worked as a team behind the scenes, just from a purely creative standpoint, than I am if they all sat in a boardroom and mapped it all out with LF at the beginning.

But I suspect this is all old conversation, so I'll leave it at that.

I just finished the Slashfilm podcast. I find it interesting that the dudebros who talk about this movie barely mention Kylo or Kylo/Rey scenes AT ALL. And also that in regards to the “SHOCKING” decision to make Rey a nobody, Rian doesn’t mention, “Well, she and Kylo seemed to be headed toward a dynamic that was not familial, and if I’d made her a Skywalker, I couldn’t explore that possibility.” Like he gives the same vague answers over and over. “I wanted to challenge her. I thought it made her cooler. I wanted to break away from the Force legacy type of thing.” Yeah, and you wanted Kylo and Rey to have the HOTS for each other while they figure out this spiritual connection they have. LOL

@nickandnora
Good news is a lot of this has been well documented. I think @MyOnlyHope can help you with links, podcasts and interviews.

There was a great deal of collaboration between JJ and Rian, at the very least. Rian has been transparent from day 1 about how he got the job and his experience writing and working for LucasFilm. He's talked about reading TFA's script, having conversations with JJ and watching dailies from the filming. He was able to observe TFA's construction from the ground up while writing TLJ. Furthermore in a recent special on the Star Wars Show LF storygroup member Raybe Roberts revealed that Lawrence Kasdan (co-scriptwriter for TFA) was describing the "energy" between Rey and Kylo as something very unique and powerful (something that made her blush and that she didn't want to describe too in-depth) back during TFA's writing.

As for IX I suspect there has been less collaboration simply because of the director change and Carrie Fisher's death. Things are just messier and work is behind, but JJ made TFA and worked with Rian on VIII so the relationship is already there. 

The most important thing for me is that these writers aren't in this to do a bad job. JJ co-produced VIII and loved Rian's script and finished product. He said that Rian's vision was very much in line with what he and Kasdan were thinking. 

I'm sorry if it came across as though I was implying you were in denial... that's definitely not what I intended. There are many different perspectives on PlotGate's validity on this forum, all of which are currently viable. Like, tons of people here consider the whole thing to be complete BS. At the end of the day... who knows?

snufkin wrote:

Armadeus wrote:@Kylo Rey

Just wanna say that Under the Skin is a terrific film. One of Johansson's best performances. Cannot recommend it enough.

@Armadeus

DUDE, reading that hit me over the head. Because the sequence it references is already iconic and already turned up in Stranger Things.

@Kylo Rey THANK YOU so much for the recap (I only listen to podcasts at the gym & I'm in a lazy rut at the moment). He does sound incredibly lovely, intelligent, and talented. Also yes @nickandnora, very diplomatic and a good employee who knows how to say the right things. Poor Trevorrow never stood a chance in comparison with this as an opening act. Random thoughts:

+ He plays the banjo?! Anybody else I'd side eye for being affected (looking at you Wes Anderson), but coming from him I buy it. Still don't think that merits somebody getting a banjo playing Porg tattoed on their a**.
+ Yeah the Under the Skin, Wizard of Oz,  and Minghella's production of Madame Butterfly references? He's a nerd the way a lot of us here are nerds, curious/into a variety of different things. Which is why the hardcore, obsessive and nerdy 100% about Star Wars fans didn't figure things out. Because they're only immersed in one specific fictional universe and work.

@snufkin

I'm embarrassed to say that I don't think I've even heard of Under the Skin before today? (Granted, it looks like that came out when my daughter was a baby/toddler, and I wasn't following film as closely as I usually do.) Can you give a quick recap of the sequence that they're referencing?

Well, I choose not to believe in PlotGate for a very simple reason: it makes details meaningless. You can't have artistic cohesion in your symbolism, foreshadowing, clues or red herrings, etc. if you have no flippin' idea (or just a very vaguest idea, i.e. "these characters end up together romantically somehow") where the story is actually headed. And if you plant a ton of various things from which the next director can pick a couple and discard the rest - well, to me that's somehow even worse, making the story a chaotic jumble of noise where only a few things actually matter.

Perhaps PlotGate is real, but in that case I'd rather not know it and continue to believe that things in a story actually mean something and are there for a reason.

It was the same when John Williams said he didn't know anything about anything. It immediately made the soundtrack to TFA sound like largely meaningless, pretty music to me, and before that I'd been struck not only by its beauty but by its details and layers.

A lot of writers don't plan beforehand when they start writing, but the difference is that everything comes out of one mind so there are plenty of unconscious and conscious connections going on in the process; and the "unplanned" version of a story generally isn't the one that gets published. The book itself would have been extensively rewritten and edited from its "unplanned" stage, and I can't think of any publisher that would commit to a self-contained series without knowing where the story is going and whether the writer actually has a plan. Publishers KNOW that too many stories just fall apart or fizzle out because it isn't easy to write a satisfying, organic whole, and often stories fall apart even within the space of only one book or film. I'm surprised if the folks at Lucasfilm choose to disregard this.

PalmettoBlue wrote:Uhhh...so, I have a podcast. And I thought I'd mention it. Since I'm a Reylo...it's Reylo friendly. If y'all like to give us a listen, we're on SoundCloud and I-tunes.
Our most recent episode is: Balancing on the Blade of a Lightsaber (The concept of balance in Star Wars.) Naturally, I can't be trusted not to make pro-Reylo comments periodically. Fair warning: Southern accents abound - some might even call it country. In at least one part, I swear the ladies from s*** Southern Women Say would approve.

Here's the Soundcloud link:Soundcloud
I-tunes:I-tunes

I hope those links work (in case anyone is interested....)

@PalmettoBlue

I love Southern accent

@FrolickingFizzgig and @MyOnlyHope are completely on the money on this one actually. As much as Rian likes to emphasise a blank slate and having complete creative freedom, he's definitely exaggerating. For example, earlier on in the same podcast he explained some of his reasoning behind the Luke force projection scene. He wanted Luke "to hand Kylo his lunch" but at the same time he didn't want to kill Kylo, essentially code for "I can't kill him off" (I don't think RJ would have done that anyway tbf.) So yeah, certain things he absolutely cannot do, which tells you a lot as LF were fine with killing off Luke. I think there's an element of him being diplomatic and a good employee (something Trevorrow seemed to struggle with maybe? along with his other failings) and LF's vision lining up with his, but also, he genuinely really seemed to enjoy working on this film. Once he got past the nerves, he said that he had the most fun he's had in his entire career writing the script and making the film. He actually specifically pointed out the same thing @MyOnlyHope did, about Disney not being some evil, corporate overlords stifling creativity. Along with that, he also pointed out that he's still learning, coming to terms with everything, that it's his first rodeo - unlike JJ, he only had a few indies and a mid-budget film under his belt. He went from making $500,000 films to a $200m blockbuster part of the biggest franchise of all time.

@nickandnora @Snufkin He does sound lovely, funny and intelligent. Which makes it sad that the backlash affected him, even if only temporarily. He had a "dark night of the soul" when he was killing time at a shopping mall after visiting screenings the day TLJ was released. He started to get hate tweets and people saying they hope he dies (it's just a movie, WTF is wrong with you) and had a "What if I've ruined Star Wars" moment. But eventually it passed and he reiterated that 95% of the tweets he gets are positive and loves the amount of discussions the movie has resulted in.

@ISeeAnIsland I haven't watched it either but have been meaning to for a long time now. RJ called it a sci-fi masterpiece and a must watch. From the little I've seen, it looks very trippy and weird. Mica Levi's soundtrack for it is flat out weird and amazing from the snippets I've heard on YouTube (the music she composed for Jackie was glorious).

There's no way that LF would have let an individual director decide whether there's 1 or 2 or more Skywalkers left in the trilogy. The decision that Kylo was the last one was made by TPTB. Rey was unrelated so it didn't matter whether her parents were garbage pickers, kings or descendants from Obi Wan or Palpatine. The main thing was that Rey and Kylo were never meant to be related cause romance, last Skywalker.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Well, I choose not to believe in PlotGate for a very simple reason: it makes details meaningless. You can't have artistic cohesion in your symbolism, foreshadowing, clues or red herrings, etc. if you have no flippin' idea (or just a very vaguest idea, i.e. "these characters end up together romantically somehow") where the story is actually headed. And if you plant a ton of various things from which the next director can pick a couple and discard the rest - well, to me that's somehow even worse, making the story a chaotic jumble of noise where only a few things actually matter.

Perhaps PlotGate is real, but in that case I'd rather not know it and continue to believe that things in a story actually mean something and are there for a reason.

It was the same when John Williams said he didn't know anything about anything. It immediately made the soundtrack to TFA sound like largely meaningless, pretty music to me, and before that I'd been struck not only by its beauty but by its details and layers.

A lot of writers don't plan beforehand when they start writing, but the difference is that everything comes out of one mind so there are plenty of unconscious and conscious connections going on in the process; and the "unplanned" version of a story generally isn't the one that gets published. The book itself would have been extensively rewritten and edited from its "unplanned" stage, and I can't think of any publisher that would commit to a self-contained series without knowing where the story is going and whether the writer actually has a plan. Publishers KNOW that too many stories just fall apart or fizzle out because it isn't easy to write a satisfying, organic whole, and often stories fall apart even within the space of only one book or film. I'm surprised if the folks at Lucasfilm choose to disregard this.

@Darth Dingbat

I had wondered for a long time why they would be so adamant in perpetuating the myth of plotgate, and I think what it comes down to is the doubling down on the magic of Disney.  Funny enough I had come to this conclusion when I went to a panel on the new Galaxy's Edge at the Disney parks at DragonCon last year.  The park is an immersive experience, and when you stay at the hotel, you are supposed to feel as if you are in a galaxy far, far away. You are given a Star Wars name, and the staff will address you as such.  You are given a costume for when you are in the park.  The lines for the rides are not visible from the outside, and to boot, you even have to search for the rides as they are hidden.

I think the same Disney mindset comes with PlotGate.  They want you to believe these stories write themselves.  They don't obviously, but that's what's behind this whole debacle - execentuating the magic.

There is so much out there that contradicts it, including JJ's latest found quote from 2015 there's no way I am willing to believe it at all.

@vaderito Exactly!