Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

by SoloSideCousin Sun 25 Feb 2018, 9:29 pm

Moonlight13 wrote:

@Moonlight13

Holy crap! He felt her actual pain and panic while Snoke was torturing her ... and he just kneeled there stoically and without movement. Holy crap is he a tough mother******!!!!

And oh yes, he can be cool when he needs to be. Damn!

by ZioRen Sun 25 Feb 2018, 9:33 pm

Novel doubles down on Leia giving up on Ben. Sheesh! I think the Reddit leaker also said that even at the start of the novel Leia was thinking of Kylo as a different person from her son.

The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations - Page 12 AHAZJIl

The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations - Page 12 AHAZJIl

by rey09 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:03 pm

MrsWindu wrote:Too much excitement today - can’t sleep darn it ! Why am I checking my phone ???

@MrsWindu

Ugh the one above- I felt what he was feeling during that battle- it really did sound like Luke chose Rey. This goes with my idea that Kylo and Rey have an interesting dynamic of a sibling-LIKE rivalry, like he should hate her, but he can't help but fall for her. That is INTENSE. Rey is the like the "good" child everyones dotes on and he's the black sheep they don't know what to do with, so he has every reason to just hate her, but he's in love with her lol. It's ironic, the reason why she's "the favorite" is the very reason why he is so drawn to her all the same...

by IoJovi Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:04 pm

ZioRen wrote:Novel doubles down on Leia giving up on Ben. Sheesh! I think the Reddit leaker also said that even at the start of the novel Leia was thinking of Kylo as a different person from her son.

@ZioRen m

At least he’s still in her thoughts even if she’s given up. It also shows that Rey truly is Ben’s only hope, and it’ll just be those two in the end.

by Dar-ren19 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:14 pm

@snufkin I took the proposal to mean that he was asking for a restart. Basically, burn it all down, let it all go... you and I can do a restart. Whether that's possible, or he's thought any of it through, I'm not sure. I was hoping to see some of his thoughts during that in the novel.

@SoloSideCousin - I was SO impressed by AD's acting in that scene. When she was being tortured, and he looks up at her, his eyes... my god, his eyes showed everything Kylo was feeling. I'm just so glad the novel confirms this.

And I'm so glad Jason Fry and Rian talked about this... I am floored at some of the stuff that they're showing us in the novel! Thank you Rian!

One question for some of you who've been through all this: aren't SW movie novelizations canon? I mean, in Trek, movie novelizations ARE canon. That's not the case in Star Wars? One of my friends is telling me that this novel isn't canon, per se, but I find that kind of preposterous. I can understand the other novels in the universe (EU) not necessarily BE canon, but a movie tie-in?

by rey09 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:18 pm

Dar-ren19 wrote:@snufkin I took the proposal to mean that he was asking for a restart. Basically, burn it all down, let it all go... you and I can do a restart. Whether that's possible, or he's thought any of it through, I'm not sure. I was hoping to see some of his thoughts during that in the novel.

@Dar-ren19

I liken it to those moments in romances where the couple is in an impossible situation and one person is like "screw it! let's run away! do our own thing!" and other is like but wait, we actually can't. One is pushed to the irrational out of desperation, the other is more practical and realizes it just can't be, at least now. Which makes it all the more heartbreaking

by californiagirl Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:21 pm

It would be weird if LF and Disney were to lead the entire SW fandom on like this just to pull the rug from under us. It would frankly come off as a little sadistic at this point. We haven't even gotten to tiny Ben in the Han novel.

by Dar-ren19 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:24 pm

rey09 wrote:
Dar-ren19 wrote:@snufkin I took the proposal to mean that he was asking for a restart. Basically, burn it all down, let it all go... you and I can do a restart. Whether that's possible, or he's thought any of it through, I'm not sure. I was hoping to see some of his thoughts during that in the novel.
@Dar-ren19

I liken it to those moments in romances where the couple is in an impossible situation and one person is like "screw it! let's run away! do our own thing!" and other is like but wait, we actually can't. One is pushed to the irrational out of desperation, the other is more practical and realizes it just can't be, at least now. Which makes it all the more heartbreaking

@rey09 Agreed completely. But I was responding to @snufkins theory/question about what is Kylo's idealogy, if any. I don't think he actually HAS one. What he has is a set of goals, part of which is to leave the ideological differences behind and establish a new world. And I think that's part and parcel of the whole balance thing. He knows that Rey is the ONLY one who can do this with him.

by SoloSideCousin Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:29 pm

Dar-ren19 wrote:@snufkin I took the proposal to mean that he was asking for a restart. Basically, burn it all down, let it all go... you and I can do a restart. Whether that's possible, or he's thought any of it through, I'm not sure. I was hoping to see some of his thoughts during that in the novel.

@SoloSideCousin - I was SO impressed by AD's acting in that scene. When she was being tortured, and he looks up at her, his eyes... my god, his eyes showed everything Kylo was feeling. I'm just so glad the novel confirms this.

And I'm so glad Jason Fry and Rian talked about this... I am floored at some of the stuff that they're showing us in the novel! Thank you Rian!

One question for some of you who've been through all this: aren't SW movie novelizations canon? I mean, in Trek, movie novelizations ARE canon. That's not the case in Star Wars? One of my friends is telling me that this novel isn't canon, per se, but I find that kind of preposterous. I can understand the other novels in the universe (EU) not necessarily BE canon, but a movie tie-in?

@Dar-ren19

No, the novelization is canon. However, if there is a direct disagreement of some sort between the movies and the books, the movie always wins. The movie is top in the canon hierarchy.

The novelization for TFA wasn't as on point as this one seems to be. The TFA one was written from an earlier script and there seemed to be almost no LF oversight on it. Given the delay in publication, I think LF has gotten its act more together and probably did look at this one more closely.

by snufkin Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:31 pm

@Dar-ren19 @rey09 - I've compared it to the first season of Mad Men, when Don Draper (who's living under an assumed identity and persona b/c he's running away from his past/childhood traumas) tries to convince his lover to run away with him and she rightly rejects it. He wants to keep escaping from who he is and wants to woman to join him in this escape scenario to bolster it. She's not having it because it's built on a lie. Same with Rey, no matter how much she feels for Ben and gets flustered by his 8-pack, going along with it would compromise everything she believes in, hurt the other people she cares about, and basically put her in the position of continuing to perpetuate this whole persona he's built up.

I think we all guessed after reading Bloodline that there's be some kind of PoV like Casterfo's about how the New Republic failed versus the Empire in terms of providing stability to the galaxy and order to smaller/less powerful systems. But the space politics we had instead was from the Canto Bight subplot with Rose and DJ talking about the people who are making money off the war and subjugating people like Rose's planet/system. We have that and potentially the child kidnapping program which seperated Finn from his family (Rey's situation was just her parents were addicts & Plutt was an opportunist) in terms of any larger space politics. Hux is out and out a terrible person who's done things like blow up the Hosnian System and fire on unarmed escape pods. But we have no larger ideology coming from Ben, even as somebody privvy to the larger political and spiritual systems via his mother and uncle.

by ZioRen Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:36 pm

Dar-ren19 wrote:
rey09 wrote:
Dar-ren19 wrote:@snufkin I took the proposal to mean that he was asking for a restart. Basically, burn it all down, let it all go... you and I can do a restart. Whether that's possible, or he's thought any of it through, I'm not sure. I was hoping to see some of his thoughts during that in the novel.
@Dar-ren19

I liken it to those moments in romances where the couple is in an impossible situation and one person is like "screw it! let's run away! do our own thing!" and other is like but wait, we actually can't. One is pushed to the irrational out of desperation, the other is more practical and realizes it just can't be, at least now. Which makes it all the more heartbreaking

@rey09 Agreed completely. But I was responding to @snufkins theory/question about what is Kylo's idealogy, if any. I don't think he actually HAS one. What he has is a set of goals, part of which is to leave the ideological differences behind and establish a new world. And I think that's part and parcel of the whole balance thing. He knows that Rey is the ONLY one who can do this with him.

@Dar-ren19

Kylo's only real plan at the moment seems to be to salt the Earth of the old guard and then figure out how to build a new world from there. Because it's mostly about destroying what hurt him right now than a true focus on a new world order, it seems. I doubt we'll ever see what he would have done, though, because there's no way Kylo is ending this trilogy in any kind of political power. It's not something Rey seems to be interested in and isn't something Kylo should have at all after everything. I love the guy, but in no way should he be a political leader of anyone nor should they accept him as such. Laughing

by SoloSideCousin Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:38 pm

Dar-ren19 wrote:
rey09 wrote:
Dar-ren19 wrote:@snufkin I took the proposal to mean that he was asking for a restart. Basically, burn it all down, let it all go... you and I can do a restart. Whether that's possible, or he's thought any of it through, I'm not sure. I was hoping to see some of his thoughts during that in the novel.
@Dar-ren19

I liken it to those moments in romances where the couple is in an impossible situation and one person is like "screw it! let's run away! do our own thing!" and other is like but wait, we actually can't. One is pushed to the irrational out of desperation, the other is more practical and realizes it just can't be, at least now. Which makes it all the more heartbreaking

@rey09 Agreed completely. But I was responding to @snufkins theory/question about what is Kylo's idealogy, if any. I don't think he actually HAS one. What he has is a set of goals, part of which is to leave the ideological differences behind and establish a new world. And I think that's part and parcel of the whole balance thing. He knows that Rey is the ONLY one who can do this with him.

@Dar-ren19

I think that I agree with this. He definitely doesn't seem to be any "true believer" in anything that has come before, hence the "let it die."

At the same time, I don't think he's an anarchist either.

I think that he has some kind of internal code that is probably very much connected with loyalty due to the betrayals and abandonment he has experienced, and further, I agree with you that he has a set of goals in mind, but that he will only be governed by whatever is in his moral code and maybe just pragmatism ,(and of course, what Rey would have thought if she had come onboard), to achieve them.

We need more information than we have to prove-prove this of course. But that is my gut feeling at the moment.

by Dar-ren19 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:39 pm

@SoloSideCousin thanks for the clarification Smile

(then it's pretty much the same as Trek)

@snufkin - gotcha. yes, put it like that, you're right. I'm wondering if he has had any political education at all. His life with Snoke seemed to be one long, nightmarish journey through hell. Perhaps now that he's his own man, so to speak, we might see this happen.

by rey09 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:41 pm

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Dar-ren19 wrote:
rey09 wrote:
Dar-ren19 wrote:@snufkin I took the proposal to mean that he was asking for a restart. Basically, burn it all down, let it all go... you and I can do a restart. Whether that's possible, or he's thought any of it through, I'm not sure. I was hoping to see some of his thoughts during that in the novel.
@Dar-ren19

I liken it to those moments in romances where the couple is in an impossible situation and one person is like "screw it! let's run away! do our own thing!" and other is like but wait, we actually can't. One is pushed to the irrational out of desperation, the other is more practical and realizes it just can't be, at least now. Which makes it all the more heartbreaking

@rey09 Agreed completely. But I was responding to @snufkins theory/question about what is Kylo's idealogy, if any. I don't think he actually HAS one. What he has is a set of goals, part of which is to leave the ideological differences behind and establish a new world. And I think that's part and parcel of the whole balance thing. He knows that Rey is the ONLY one who can do this with him.
@Dar-ren19

I think that I agree with this. He definitely doesn't seem to be any "true believer" in anything that has come before, hence the "let it die."

At the same time, I don't think he's an anarchist either.

I think that he has some kind of internal code that is probably very much connected with loyalty due to the betrayals and abandonment he has experienced, and further, I agree with you that he has a set of goals in mind, but that he will only be governed by whatever is in his moral code and maybe just pragmatism ,(and of course, what Rey would have thought if she had come onboard), to achieve them.

We need more information than we have to prove-prove this of course. But that is my gut feeling at the moment.

@SoloSideCousin

@snufkin Ah I remember that scene! Actually very similar to throne room scene, minus Don Draper just being the worst
And yes I agree with all of you- he doesn't have any doctrine he adhere to, which pisses me off when ppl label him as a "space nazi" because he's not part of the FO like Hux is. Everything for him is just personal- he wants to get back at authority figures in general. And I think he's also just succumbed to his fate as a monster, like this is the only route he can possibly have.

by ZioRen Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:45 pm

by Dar-ren19 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:45 pm

rey09 wrote:
@snufkin Ah I remember that scene! Actually very similar to throne room scene, minus Don Draper just being the worst
And yes I agree with all of you- he doesn't have any doctrine he adhere to, which pisses me off when ppl label him as a "space nazi" because he's not part of the FO like Hux is. Everything for him is just personal- he wants to get back at authority figures in general. And I think he's also just succumbed to his fate as a monster, like this is the only route he can possibly have.

@rey09 THIS. Especially the bolded. I completely agree with this.

by thescavenger Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:46 pm

@ZioRen

Why do I always miss these huge events! I've never been this excited to catch up on 10 pages of a thread.

But on the other hand, why has this go under-discussed. I just shed real tears for this gem:

The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations - Page 12 W7Ummn9

The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations - Page 12 W7Ummn9

by Dar-ren19 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:50 pm

Yeah, I wonder if they put this in because of Adam's gorgeous mane Very Happy

by ZioRen Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:53 pm

Dar-ren19 wrote:Yeah, I wonder if they put this in because of Adam's gorgeous mane

@Dar-ren19

They for sure did. Adam/Kylo's amazing L'Oreal hair has been a running joke since TFA. Now we have Kylo's huge, glistening pecs to join it. Speaking of which, even our Reylo friend didn't say how Kylo's shirtless scene was described. I wonder if it was just "he had no shirt on, she averted her eyes so she could focus".

Also, on Reylo Twitter leaker's new tweets: Kylo being regretful at the end is her interpretation of how he looked in TLJ. No sentence in the book supports that he's feeling regret in that moment.

by Dar-ren19 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:18 pm

@ZioRen yeah, did you see that tweet where Rey's having a hard time focusing on Kylo's eyes? Laughing

by rey09 Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:32 pm

I think what's more interesting than him not seeing compassion in her is that he was even *searching* for it at all, like maybe he was hoping for some mercy from her.

by snufkin Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:44 pm

@rey09 - I would die if they had shown a Pete Campbell, "NOT GREAT, BOB!" moment for Hux after either the loss of SKB or the Battle of Crait.

Dar-ren19 wrote:
rey09 wrote:
@snufkin Ah I remember that scene! Actually very similar to throne room scene, minus Don Draper just being the worst
And yes I agree with all of you- he doesn't have any doctrine he adhere to, which pisses me off when ppl label him as a "space nazi" because he's not part of the FO like Hux is. Everything for him is just personal- he wants to get back at authority figures in general. And I think he's also just succumbed to his fate as a monster, like this is the only route he can possibly have.

@rey09 THIS. Especially the bolded. I completely agree with this.

@Dar-ren19

They've teased at a more coherently thought out version of space politics in Bloodline and R1 versus George Lucas' version - which is why I always crack that Padme is about as compelling as the kids I was in student government with.But onscreen it's been MIA other than the Canto Bight subplot. We'll see if JJ picks up that thread or the one about the program which kidnapped Finn as a child soldier. But it doesn't feel like an actual compelling ideology that's driving Kylo. He's just trying to burn down everything he feels robbed him of having his childhood/family and start over where he has Rey and is in controls the system. And she's not going to enable that for various reasons, which is the breakdown and why he ends up thinking that he's on his own. Talking to Vader's mask isn't going to be the same as hand-holding and late night secret chats. He's more like Pasha/Strelnikov in Dr. Zhivago's being described as "Happy men don't volunteer for war."

by special_cases Mon 26 Feb 2018, 12:30 am

We have another Reylo who already has a book.

“..and found Kylo Ren there - right next to where she sat on the stone bench. As if she could actually reach out and touch his hand, his face, his hair.

At the sight of him she’d felt relief surge through her.”

This person didn't post pic of book, so it's not 100 % verified. But his\her tumblr is very active.

http://fairislecats.tumblr.com/post/171298718200/tlj-novel

Also: that leaker from Reddit pretty much anti, so no surprises.

by Night Huntress Mon 26 Feb 2018, 12:48 am

Wow, what a great morning reading all this... Claps

I'm not really surprised but it feels good having all of our thoughts on the movie confirmed.

by DeeBee Mon 26 Feb 2018, 1:03 am

I'll spoiler for brevity sake..

Riri quote:

@Riri

Riri thanks so much for sharing this!
I just wanted to say "Bonus caretakers segment. Autumn changes to winter and the caretakers reminisce about earlier outsiders, kind and mad ones and long times without visits. Rey will be recalled as Luke's destructive and rude niece. The caretakers store Luke's weapon and star compass."
-This has me super super super excited!!! cheers

That the compass rates a specific mention is maybe significant for IX.. and what of 'Luke's weapon' ? is that the green lightsaber?! And.. what of his Red Kyber crystal trophy we saw in his hut? I'd think the caretakers would have put a kyber crystal away for safe keeping also.
I think in IX, someone at some point must stop at Ach-to - I'm thinking that Han's gold dice is still there also.. so another reason to go back.. [and 'scavenge!']
As a left over from all our TLJ wishes.. I'm guessing many of us would love to see Rey and Kylo/Ben on Ach-to together at some point!

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