The Last Jedi General Discussion

Didn't JJ say Star Wars is a fairytale with a prince and a princess? That's amazing, he'll probably continue that theme with a full blown happy ending!

Edit: We need to see Ben and Luke reconcile/apologize/hug, i think all the fans would actually love that. It's something Anakin and Obi Wan never did.

@Kylo Rey

That's true. Although, I think he could appear to both of them. Especially as we only saw two of Luke's three lessons to Rey. Maybe he has a third one to give her which relates to Kylo? Especially since we don't tragically have Leia anymore. Maybe some of her role will be split between both Rey and Luke but more Rey, obviously. I think it could be good for them to reconcile a bit. I just hope we'll see Anakin's Force Ghost appear to Kylo! I want to see that so so much.

I actually can see a scenario where Finn ends up defending Rey to Poe; discovering the Force bond will be a disagreeable shock but his loyalty to Rey is very strong. Regarding Luke's confrontation with Kylo - in Fry's novel it actually mentions Kylo is terrified of Luke - so when he goes to face him alone it proves that he has an amazing amount of courage, whatever his faults.

Riri wrote:Didn't JJ say Star Wars is a fairytale with a prince and a princess? That's amazing, he'll probably continue that theme with a full blown happy ending!

Edit: We need to see Ben and Luke reconcile/apologize/hug, i think all the fans would actually love that. It's something Anakin and Obi Wan never did.

@Riri

what I would like in the finale of this trilogy is the reconciliation of Ben with his family maybe we will not see the ghost of Han, but it would be great that the whole family skywalker appeared and watched over our young lovers
a similar ending to the return of the Jedi, maybe I said a bullshit but review all the characters ... it would be a great present for me

Forgive me because I'm on a reverse Anidala kick, but I listened to 3/4ths of the commentary last night and I seriously just had to laugh at certain junctures where Rian did everything to avoid talking about Anakin/Amidala parallels. I mean visually some of them are so obvious and yet it's also obvious that he was not supposed to talk about it (or at least, as little as possible). The one that made me laugh was Rey being in the space coffin, where he says that the image came to him because one of his favourite stories as a kid was about a character who travelled through space in a coffin... which very, very well may be true, but there was just this thing in his voice when he was talking where it was almost like he was trying to deflect from the other obvious visual parallel (Padme's coffin) that was shot with such precision there's no way it was an accident.

He obviously was able to talk about it a bit more at that recent interview (can't remember which) where he actually talks about referencing the prequels, but even then he had to cut the conversation off at some point and not answer the questions.

I wasn't sure where to put this but it's so cute! Lego Reylo!!

@BB-Rey


"The moody bad guy"
"The very special girl"
"Secret mind phone calls"

I love Lego Star Wars!

So, after viewing TLJ again on my kindle and finished reading the book over the weekend. I take it that Kylo is taking on the role of being Rey's teacher to some degree....
Did anyone else read that the same way?

Birdwoman wrote:So, after viewing TLJ again on my kindle and finished reading the book over the weekend. I take it that Kylo is taking on the role of being Rey's teacher to some degree....
Did anyone else read that the same way?

@Birdwoman

There was tons of foreshadowing for it in the book...from Rey's thoughts about "downloading" various Force skills from Kylo (something confirmed long ago by Pablo) to the line about how the ancient library called to Rey, but that she couldn't actually read the books...to the new Forces of Destiny short where Rey apparently has a line about how "she didn't even know that she knew how to do that" when she Force-freezes a Porg...

Kylo helps teach Rey Force stuff, Rey helps teach Kylo how to not be a jerk and let the past go instead of insisting it die.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:So, after viewing TLJ again on my kindle and finished reading the book over the weekend. I take it that Kylo is taking on the role of being Rey's teacher to some degree....
Did anyone else read that the same way?

@Birdwoman

There was tons of foreshadowing for it in the book...from Rey's thoughts about "downloading" various Force skills from Kylo (something confirmed long ago by Pablo) to the line about how the ancient library called to Rey, but that she couldn't actually read the books...to the new Forces of Destiny short where Rey apparently has a line about how "she didn't even know that she knew how to do that" when she Force-freezes a Porg...

@ISeeAnIsland

I like that he's teaching her in an indirect way. He's all about taking down the master/apprentice system so it makes sense. He and Rey both dump their masters in TLJ. Also, Rey and Kylo having a literal teacher/student relationship would make a romance between them even creepier to those who are already against it. (says the lady married to her former teacher... )

@ISeeAnIsland - speaking of which, my memory got jogged about this old question. He still doesn't have the map! But it does mean that the two of them were definitely feeling the Force together as a metaphor for something else.

What is interesting post "he's nurturing her when Luke should be" is that the Force stuff is there but it's a pretext for the real dynamic between them, grappling with their childhood trauma. Only problem for Kylo is that while he helps her articulate what happened with her parents and she starts to move past it, he doubles down on what he feels is 'owed' to him b/c of what he went through. The thing Luke talks about with hubris and ego about the family bloodline/legacy. Also he's way more "too much of his father in him" (not the smirk and sass, but picking up something going on with her and being empathetic, which is what Han did) when he interacts with Rey versus trying to force himself into a role he's clearly miserable in.

snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland - speaking of which, my memory got jogged about this old question. He still doesn't have the map! But it does mean that the two of them were definitely feeling the Force together as a metaphor for something else.

What is interesting post "he's nurturing her when Luke should be" is that the Force stuff is there but it's a pretext for the real dynamic between them, grappling with their childhood trauma. Only problem for Kylo is that while he helps her articulate what happened with her parents and she starts to move past it, he doubles down on what he feels is 'owed' to him b/c of what he went through. The thing Luke talks about with hubris and ego about the family bloodline/legacy. Also he's way more "too much of his father in him" (not the smirk and sass, but picking up something going on with her and being empathetic, which is what Han did) when he interacts with Rey versus trying to force himself into a role he's clearly miserable in.

@snufkin

Come to think of it, her pulling stuff out of Kylo's head should be proof that their minds were "bridged" back on Starkiller... as opposed to Snoke connecting them only after he became aware of Rey's existence.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland - speaking of which, my memory got jogged about this old question. He still doesn't have the map! But it does mean that the two of them were definitely feeling the Force together as a metaphor for something else.

What is interesting post "he's nurturing her when Luke should be" is that the Force stuff is there but it's a pretext for the real dynamic between them, grappling with their childhood trauma. Only problem for Kylo is that while he helps her articulate what happened with her parents and she starts to move past it, he doubles down on what he feels is 'owed' to him b/c of what he went through. The thing Luke talks about with hubris and ego about the family bloodline/legacy. Also he's way more "too much of his father in him" (not the smirk and sass, but picking up something going on with her and being empathetic, which is what Han did) when he interacts with Rey versus trying to force himself into a role he's clearly miserable in.

@snufkin

Come to think of it, her pulling stuff out of Kylo's head should be proof that their minds were "bridged" back on Starkiller... as opposed to Snoke connecting them only after he became aware of Rey's existence.

@ISeeAnIsland

Speaking of that, I just read a theory somewhere that said that, because the timing of Leia going into a coma and waking up coincides exactly with Ben and Rey connecting via the Force (I think), she was the one who was unconsciously responsible for it (not sure how the heck this would work... is she able to do things while asleep that she can't do while awake... not sure). Regardless, I thought to myself: "Now THAT is an interesting twist." And an even more interesting twist on this: because Ben and Rey's LAST forcebond session happens almost immediately after Luke's death (and right after he's contemplating that binary sunset, symbolismmmmmmm) , HE'S the one responsible for it continuing, and possibly becoming stronger in IX to "make up" for trying to tear them apart in TLJ. I LOVED that. I would love for this theory to be true.

(Note: I do think that the "bond" itself started in VII, and it's the cause of them being able to download information and skills from each other, but I have no problem believing that the ability to see and interact with each other at pivotal moments is the work of something else entirely.)

I think Snoke was lying about him being the one who connected them. I do think he manipulated the bond. I do wonder if Snoke was aware how strong the connection became between the two?

I want to know what Snoke meant by stoking Kylo’s conflicted soul. By connecting he and Rey?

He stoked Kylo's need for the light by facilitating his bond with Rey. At least, that's what HE thought, IMO...

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:So, after viewing TLJ again on my kindle and finished reading the book over the weekend. I take it that Kylo is taking on the role of being Rey's teacher to some degree....
Did anyone else read that the same way?

@Birdwoman

There was tons of foreshadowing for it in the book...from Rey's thoughts about "downloading" various Force skills from Kylo (something confirmed long ago by Pablo) to the line about how the ancient library called to Rey, but that she couldn't actually read the books...to the new Forces of Destiny short where Rey apparently has a line about how "she didn't even know that she knew how to do that" when she Force-freezes a Porg...

@ISeeAnIsland

I like that he's teaching her in an indirect way. He's all about taking down the master/apprentice system so it makes sense. He and Rey both dump their masters in TLJ. Also, Rey and Kylo having a literal teacher/student relationship would make a romance between them even creepier to those who are already against it. (says the lady married to her former teacher... )

@Cowgirlsamurai

One moment I like in Jason Fry's prose has Rey thinking of Ben treating her like a fellow student:

He peered at her, curious now.

“Can you see my surroundings?” He sounded like a student contemplating an interesting problem—and expecting her to work as his partner to solve it. That infuriated her.

--Fry, Jason. The Last Jedi: Expanded Edition (Star Wars) (p. 118). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

I felt that sense of two young people discovering things together - sex, knowledge. Though I do think Ben *believes* he has something to teach her: he thinks he's supposed to help her remember what jerks her parents are and embrace anger and the desire to "kill the past" with him.

The thing is, that is the best truth he has right now, and he wants to share it out of a genuine concern for her well-being. But his head is really messed up, so his best truth is actually a really messed up, unhealthy coping strategy, so Rey cannot accept being his "student" for this particular lesson. It would destroy her. She has to find her own way; as Rian mentioned, her whole story is about realizing she has to make and find her own way, without someone to tell her what to do or who to be.

I don't leave comments on videos, but I completely just left a six paragraph comment on a video from one of my favorite YT channels because I was so frustrated. They are a popular film and media-related channel, and I like them much more than Collider, which I find hard to watch.

However, sometimes the on-air personalities are given a notes about a topic they are not familiar with. Today it was about the TLJ novelization and the "changes" it made. Except it didn't change anything. These are all very smart, usually thoughtful people, but they are all under the impression Rian didn't like JJ's way of approaching SW, basically said "screw you", and did whatever he wanted, undoing what was set up in TFA. JJ is going to come back and probably do the opposite, Rey will probably be a chosen one and/or her parents aren't nobody. At least one believes Kylo is full evil now. They thought the novel was trying to retcon or cover up plotholes or otherwise respond to the TLJ reaction. It was written before TLJ came out! Rian and the Story Group helped!

I was surprised to see that some of my favorite internet people, outside of all you here, were so convinced of these things. These are NOT fanboys. Two of the four are female, actually. They are usually better than all this, but many of them actively try to avoid SW news and trailers, which doesn't help matters. None of them hated TLJ, some of them even loved it. I've been worried that IX might come as more of a shock to many than we would like to think. It isn't just antis and fanboys and ignorant GA. Is nowhere but the Reylo fandom safe?

@californiagirl

Sometimes I like to think that "shock" might actually be a great thing for portions of the general audience. I mean yes, there's merit in understanding where the story is going, especially for those (like me, like a lot of us here) that love literary analysis. But perhaps, for a lot of the main audience, the films ARE actively trying to surprise while at the same time making you think in retrospect, "Oh wow, I should have seen that" or "Oh wow, I was totally shocked by that and LOVED it."

So it's quite possible it's all part of the plan. Case and point: myself, I wasn't actively thinking about Reylo after TFA, it was just more of a during the film instinctive niggle that was like, "hmmm... interesting chemistry." And then during TLJ I was like, "ok, this is amazing" and even at the end my first reaction was probably, "omg, where is this going with Kylo now?!" It's only because I saw it a second time in quick succession (because I took my mother the day after I saw it) that my literary mind kicked in and I "got it." But the film almost certainly wants you to think one thing even though it set up a series of very different things if that makes sense.

If they're doing a Pride and Prejudice type of story with Kylo, they're doing it with Rey but also with the audience as well, which means that Act III is where she/we understand the depth to which we didn't understand him (even though Rey understands him more than anyone at this point). It's just part of the fun of it, to think you're right about something until you're expertly proven wrong (PS. the way Rian and people like Jason Fry have basically outright stated that they can't talk about Kylo's mindset at the end of TLJ speaks volumes to the fact that this is what they're doing with him next film). Like a detective story when you think you know the culprit. I mean yes, some are still going to be in a bad kind of shock at the end of the next film. But I have confidence that J.J. will make it so that they *shouldn't* feel like that, lol.

The whole J.J. and Rian stuff though, that's a whole other annoying matter. It's one thing to talk about the story in isolation. It's another to project feelings that don't exist onto the writers and directors.

New interview from Fry and there is something that I can't understand

One of the most shocking moments in the adaptation is the revelation that Ben Solo knew what Luke saw in his mind the night Kylo Ren was born, implying that he had already turned to the dark side. Was this something that came from your discussions with Johnson?

To clarify, Luke sees that the night of their confrontation in the temple, not the night of Ben’s birth. It’s what causes him to ignite his saber, even if it’s only in a moment of terrible fear that he immediately regrets. There is a moment in the novelization where Leia recalls feeling darkness in Ben before his birth, only to have Luke assure her we all have light and darkness within us. It’s a cool detail I can’t claim credit for — Chuck Wendig introduced it in his Aftermath trilogy.

Rian and I did brainstorm a bit about how to translate the three Rashomon-style flashbacks with Luke and Kylo to the page. That was a challenge in other scenes too: At several critical moments, the film uses the visual language of film for storytelling in ways I had to re-create from a different starting point. The biggest challenge was Rey’s voice-over after the mirror cave. In the movie, we know she’s telling someone what happened, and the shock is that it’s Kylo and not Luke. I spent a few days pacing around muttering to myself while I tried to figure out a way to replicate that surprise on the page. I think what I came up with works, but it’s for readers to decide.

I didn't know that people think that the fact Ben saw Luke's mind that night confirms that Kylo already turned. Did he? I read it as Ben just saw what Luke is seeing about his future. If Ben already turned, what's the point and why Kylo is angry with Luke then - if he was just planning to kill other students and Luke "caught" him?

I don't think Fry understood the question. But he did clarify that Luke saw just what happened next - Kylo is killing half students and half is leaving with him.

special_cases wrote:New interview from Fry and there is something that I can't understand

One of the most shocking moments in the adaptation is the revelation that Ben Solo knew what Luke saw in his mind the night Kylo Ren was born, implying that he had already turned to the dark side. Was this something that came from your discussions with Johnson?

To clarify, Luke sees that the night of their confrontation in the temple, not the night of Ben’s birth. It’s what causes him to ignite his saber, even if it’s only in a moment of terrible fear that he immediately regrets. There is a moment in the novelization where Leia recalls feeling darkness in Ben before his birth, only to have Luke assure her we all have light and darkness within us. It’s a cool detail I can’t claim credit for — Chuck Wendig introduced it in his Aftermath trilogy.

Rian and I did brainstorm a bit about how to translate the three Rashomon-style flashbacks with Luke and Kylo to the page. That was a challenge in other scenes too: At several critical moments, the film uses the visual language of film for storytelling in ways I had to re-create from a different starting point. The biggest challenge was Rey’s voice-over after the mirror cave. In the movie, we know she’s telling someone what happened, and the shock is that it’s Kylo and not Luke. I spent a few days pacing around muttering to myself while I tried to figure out a way to replicate that surprise on the page. I think what I came up with works, but it’s for readers to decide.

I didn't know that people think that the fact Ben saw Luke's mind that night confirms that Kylo already turned. Did he? I read it as Ben just saw what Luke is seeing about his future. If Ben already turned, what's the point and why Kylo is angry with Luke then - if he was just planning to kill other students and Luke "caught" him?

I don't think Fry understood the question. But he did clarify that Luke saw just what happened next - Kylo is killing half students and half is leaving with him.

@special_cases

Yeah this confused me too. I don't remember hearing anything about this in the book? I also don't see the point in Ben already planning to kill students and it doesn't fit the movie and Rey's accusation of "you made his choice for him". The movie seems to spell out to me that Luke saw a vision of Ben's future, the tragic irony of it being that it's the future LUKE'S actions would cause to occur.

@ZioRen

I don't remember hearing anything about this in the book?

Apparently many fans think that the moment in 3rd vision - when Ben "knows what Luke is seeing" and both Luke and Ben know what will come - confirms that Kylo was already on the dark side and Luke just caught him before Ben betrayed him.

I think many people will never believe that Luke is somehow responsible for Kylo's turn.

The movie seems to spell out to me that Luke saw a vision of Ben's future, the tragic irony of it being that it's the future LUKE'S actions would cause to occur.

Yeah, for me too! This is typical self-fulfilling stuff for SW. The same happened to Anakin.

But I don't understand Fry's answer. Did he confirmed that Ben already turned? This is so strange.

If I go by the film and then the book, my understanding is that Luke saw the future where Ben had turned. He comments that when he read his mind that he saw that Ben had almost turned. But because of Luke's actions, it pushed him over the edge.

Some of the fans have had a very hard time with Luke possibly having something to do with Ben turning into Kylo. I personally loved Luke's story arc in TLJ. The marketing of Luke made sense to me after watching the movie 4 times. haha! I am slow!!