The Last Jedi General Discussion

special_cases wrote:@ZioRen

I don't remember hearing anything about this in the book?

Apparently many fans think that the moment in 3rd vision - when Ben "knows what Luke is seeing" and both Luke and Ben know what will come - confirms that Kylo was already on the dark side and Luke just caught him before Ben betrayed him.

I think many people will never believe that Luke is somehow responsible for Kylo's turn.

The movie seems to spell out to me that Luke saw a vision of Ben's future, the tragic irony of it being that it's the future LUKE'S actions would cause to occur.

Yeah, for me too! This is typical self-fulfilling stuff for SW. The same happened to Anakin.

But I don't understand Fry's answer. Did he confirmed that Ben already turned? This is so strange.

@special_cases

I don't think so. Fry is answering the question by speaking about Luke. And he doesn't answer the exact question at all.

I think (at least it was my reading of it) that Ben was definitely influenced by Snoke but didn't turn yet. Luke's words in third version of the scene - which I think is the most accurate one - that he only saw the eyes of a frightened boy - somehow confirm that Ben didn't turn yet.

@Darth_Awakened

I think (at least it was my reading of it) that Ben was definitely influenced by Snoke but didn't turn yet. Luke's words in third version of the scene - which I think is the most accurate one - that he only saw the eyes of a frightened boy - somehow confirm that Ben didn't turn yet.

My reading is similar but... Luke did said that "Snoke already turned his heart."

It's quite ambiguous. Not turned to the dark side, but turned.

special_cases wrote:@Darth_Awakened

I think (at least it was my reading of it) that Ben was definitely influenced by Snoke but didn't turn yet. Luke's words in third version of the scene - which I think is the most accurate one - that he only saw the eyes of a frightened boy - somehow confirm that Ben didn't turn yet.

My reading is similar but... Luke did said that "Snoke already turned his heart."

It's quite ambiguous. Not turned to the dark side, but turned.

@special_cases

Yeah, he did, but it was in the moment when Luke was terrified and was about to ignite the saber. I think the words he said later on about the frightened boy carries much more weight in all of it. That was the moment when Luke was faced with the mistake he had made. But it was too late - Ben already reacted.

special_cases wrote:@Darth_Awakened

I think (at least it was my reading of it) that Ben was definitely influenced by Snoke but didn't turn yet. Luke's words in third version of the scene - which I think is the most accurate one - that he only saw the eyes of a frightened boy - somehow confirm that Ben didn't turn yet.

My reading is similar but... Luke did said that "Snoke already turned his heart."

It's quite ambiguous. Not turned to the dark side, but turned.

@special_cases

Eh, honestly I still don't trust Luke's view of events. He doesn't know what really happened with his students either and doesn't he assume Ben must have thought he was dead from collapsing the hut which is why he survived? That doesn't ring true to me either. I think though he acknowledges his mistakes, he still doesn't fully get his nephew and never did. There's obviously more to be uncovered there.

ZioRen wrote:

special_cases wrote:@Darth_Awakened

I think (at least it was my reading of it) that Ben was definitely influenced by Snoke but didn't turn yet. Luke's words in third version of the scene - which I think is the most accurate one - that he only saw the eyes of a frightened boy - somehow confirm that Ben didn't turn yet.

My reading is similar but... Luke did said that "Snoke already turned his heart."

It's quite ambiguous. Not turned to the dark side, but turned.

@special_cases

Eh, honestly I still don't trust Luke's view of events. He doesn't know what really happened with his students either and doesn't he assume Ben must have thought he was dead from collapsing the hut which is why he survived? That doesn't ring true to me either. I still think though he acknowledges his mistakes, he still doesn't fully get his nephew and never did. There's obviously still more to be uncovered there.

@ZioRen

I really hope we will know more in IX and this time it will be clear explanation from Kylo or the Force!

The thing with students is indeed very strange.

I was just listening to Rian talk at SXSW and why he chose to write Luke's story arc the way he did, it was excellent. He also talked about his other movies and filmmaking. Very interesting. You can find it on YouTube.

Birdwoman wrote:I was just listening to Rian talk at SXSW and why he chose to write Luke's story arc the way he did, it was excellent. He also talked about his other movies and filmmaking. Very interesting. You can find it on YouTube.

@Birdwoman

Watched this yesterday. Very insightful.

Rey's face is incredible, she seems to be saying: oh my God he's right here in front of me...


at first glance it seems that Kylo and Rey are bending over for a kiss , comparing the two images I don't know why....

special_cases wrote:

@special_cases

something is missing...of better to say someone

Birdwoman wrote:I think Snoke was lying about him being the one who connected them. I do think he manipulated the bond. I do wonder if Snoke was aware how strong the connection became between the two?

@Birdwoman

Agreed to all.
The deleted scene with Luke saying to Rey: “You opened yourself to Dark Side for a pair of pretty eyes!” I think Snoke saw it that way too, that the connection was skin deep, physical attraction and not on a deeper level. Snoke could have watched the shirtless scene, and as the creepy old man he is, going teeheehee, she is liking what she sees.


Snoke and Luke have that in common, no first hand experience with romantic love.

I was rewatching TLJ today and noticed something I don't know if it's been said.

First there is the shirtless force bond scene. Then the scene ends. Rey is called to the dark side cave. She falls in, and at that moment, that force bond sound starts again. She then tells Ben literally everything in that scene, at first I thought she was narrating to the audience but then I realized she's narrating to him! I almost wonder if he is there, because you just hear her breathe and making the snapping sound. We always thought that the shadow walking up to the mirror is Ben, but I really think it is him... walking up to her during the force bond.

Also interesting this all happens back to back - she sees him shirtless and is still kind of mad at him, and then not too long after she is holding hands. Whatever she saw in her vision must have been so powerful because she then attacks Luke and is off to rescue her new BF! Alright, I apologize if I am my rambling.

Teo oswald wrote:Rey's face is incredible, she seems to be saying: oh my God he's right here in front of me...


at first glance it seems that Kylo and Rey are bending over for a kiss , comparing the two images I don't know why....

@Teo oswald

I can't with the chemistry of these two! Goosebumps all over. Why did Luke had to come in at this precise moment! Sigh..

All I am saying is that we better get a big ol kiss in episode IX. I am counting on you JJ.. Come on! It's now or never. Go big or go home!

Can anyone explain the thing about Kylo's face reputedly starting to disintegrate from the dark side at the end of TLJ? Amd that's why he'll need the mask? I don't think his scar looked any worse than it did before. It's just kind of deluded sounding fanboy hopes.

californiagirl wrote:Can anyone explain the thing about Kylo's face reputedly starting to disintegrate from the dark side at the end of TLJ? Amd that's why he'll need the mask? I don't think his scar looked any worse than it did before. It's just kind of deluded sounding fanboy hopes.

@californiagirl

I didn't notice it, he just looks worse in the end, well, because he is in misery. Also there is different light in three last scenes. Adam has unusual face which can very different from various angles and in different light. When he lose weight, he looks different, and in Luke\Kylo scene he actually looks thinner.

I only noticed strange marks on his neck.

Is Harloff the first who said that, IIRC?

californiagirl wrote:Can anyone explain the thing about Kylo's face reputedly starting to disintegrate from the dark side at the end of TLJ? Amd that's why he'll need the mask? I don't think his scar looked any worse than it did before. It's just kind of deluded sounding fanboy hopes.

@californiagirl

I know, I also don’t think his face “disintegrated” from the dark side like some people like to say.

I think the idea comes from the scene on Crait where Kylo is facing Luke and he’s enraged and screaming. In that scene, it does look like the scar and his face have some dark lines/veins extending out. I thought it was similar to how angry people sometimes get bulging veins in their foreheads/necks.  

People who want Kylo to be fully evil in IX cling to his appearance in that one scene as proof he’s being physically corrupted by the dark side, but they completely ignore the following scene where he’s kneeling on the ground looking up at Rey and his face looks more normal without the veins/lines on his scar from the Crait scene.

Is there such a thing as "getting deformed from the Dark Side"?   Because I've only seen people getting deformed due to physical causes, like Force lightning (Palpatine) and fire (Anakin).

Nothing is disintegrating, that's pure delusion from desperate fanboys who somehow still haven't gotten the picture even when Kylo's final scene is him on his knees flashing puppy eyes at Rey. This is just seeing Kylo in full natural light for the first time in the movie so the flaws in his skin are illuminated more.

Why haven't people learned from the fact that they made his scar teeny tiny, missed all of his facial features so as not to distort them, and even moved the scar so it didn't look "goofy"? Kylo is not meant to look like he's turning evil.

californiagirl wrote:Can anyone explain the thing about Kylo's face reputedly starting to disintegrate from the dark side at the end of TLJ? Amd that's why he'll need the mask? I don't think his scar looked any worse than it did before. It's just kind of deluded sounding fanboy hopes.

@californiagirl
Sure, I can explain it.

It's complete and utter nonsense.

(If they wanted to demonstrate that the dark side was turning him physically ugly, they would have been way more obvious about it; it would be more than "oh no, he looks slightly winded and I can see a vein in his forehead that wasn't there before!")

ZioRen wrote:Nothing is disintegrating, that's pure delusion from desperate fanboys who somehow still haven't gotten the picture even when Kylo's final scene is him on his knees flashing puppy eyes at Rey. This is just seeing Kylo in full natural light for the first time in the movie so the flaws in his skin are illuminated more.

Why haven't people learned from the fact that they made his scar teeny tiny, missed all of his facial features so as not to distort them, and even moved the scar so it didn't look "goofy"? Kylo is not meant to look like he's turning evil.

@ZioRen
I agree.

his face “disintegrated” ??? What??? I never saw that and I payed close attention to his face...

He just looks so strange during the fight with Luke because he is enraged.

The last shot of his face... he looks sad and broken but no way is he disfigured by the dark side or something  

I really don't see any vein on his face. I feel like I'm blind

special_cases wrote:I really don't see any vein on his face. I feel like I'm blind

@special_cases

It emerges when he's screaming at Luke. You know, as veins tend to do when one is screaming.

ZioRen wrote:Nothing is disintegrating, that's pure delusion from desperate fanboys who somehow still haven't gotten the picture even when Kylo's final scene is him on his knees flashing puppy eyes at Rey. This is just seeing Kylo in full natural light for the first time in the movie so the flaws in his skin are illuminated more.

Why haven't people learned from the fact that they made his scar teeny tiny, missed all of his facial features so as not to distort them, and even moved the scar so it didn't look "goofy"? Kylo is not meant to look like he's turning evil.

@ZioRen

This. ^^ They couldn't have yellow Sith eyes, so they thought if they squinted, they'd see the Dark Side distorting Kylo's face.

ZioRen wrote:Nothing is disintegrating, that's pure delusion from desperate fanboys who somehow still haven't gotten the picture even when Kylo's final scene is him on his knees flashing puppy eyes at Rey. This is just seeing Kylo in full natural light for the first time in the movie so the flaws in his skin are illuminated more.

Why haven't people learned from the fact that they made his scar teeny tiny, missed all of his facial features so as not to distort them, and even moved the scar so it didn't look "goofy"? Kylo is not meant to look like he's turning evil.

@ZioRen

I'm glad that JJ subverted the "villain has to be ugly" cliche with Kylo tbh. A stroke of genius IMO. Clearly some SW fans can't cope, given the franchises history of mechanical/more machine than man villains and the DS deforming the physical features. Fanboys have been clinging on to the notion of Kylo becoming deformed/uglier ever since Rey scarred him in the snow fight. Then the meltdown came when the trailer revealed his teeny scar and RJ had to explain himself. One of the biggest indicators that he is supposed to be a love interest. If they really wanted to, they could have messed his face up pretty bad, but they didn't.