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TLJ was trending this morning, again, because of course it was.

I might be wrong but I have a strong feeling Rian was actually told to not give TLJ a 'happy reylo' ending. At that time Colin Trevorrow was signed up for episode 9 and he wanted villain Kylo and Damerey. Hence Kylo's 'regression' and the flirting between Poe and Rey.

But look closely.....we get Ben, anger burned out, staring sadly up at Rey in his last scene in the film and Hux watching from the wings, a predator smelling blood. And we have that look of longing on Rey's face as she stares at Finn tending Rose....longing to have something like that in her life.

I can't stop the angry feelings I have whenever I hear them saying Rian wrote them into a corner. What he did was set out on a platter everything that could have created a truly memorable end to the saga - a film where war itself was the real enemy, that the Force needed to find a balance and that the days of 'ultimate dark' and 'ultimate light' had to end. He gave us the possibilities of a Resistance that weren't entirely good and a FO that weren't entirely bad. He laid the foundations of a film where everyone would have a role to play - Finn leading a stormtrooper rebellion, Poe as the new, more unforgiving leader of the Resistance, Hux ousting Kylo on discovering who had really killed Snoke, Rey and Kylo finally realising that the way forward was acceptance and understanding....like the line in the BatB song...'finding you can change, learning you were wrong'.

The more I see TLJ the more I feel almost like crying when I see what DLF threw away. They ended the most memorable space opera ever in the most depressing, disheartening way they could have and for what - satisfy fake wokes, Kylo haters and the fandomw menace? Or simply to give Terrio and Abrams what THEY, not the paying audience, wanted.
It breaks my heart.

Rey and Ben splitting up at the end of TLJ fit very neatly into a conventional romantic arc, where the guy and the girl have a fight about two thirds into the story so that they can re-unite later. At the time I thought it was a natural progression for their relationship.

The big problem with Reylo in TLJ is that while Rian might have viewed it as romantic, the movie itself played it too coy and ambiguous, especially where Rey’s feelings were concerned. I mean, the very fact that he needs to confirm that yes Reylo was romantic is a good indication that it wasn’t clear enough in the film.

Maybe....but I wonder if that was Rian or DLF? Fact is, Disney seem to see romance, especially the enemy to lovers trope, as poison these days.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Maybe....but I wonder if that was Rian or DLF? Fact is, Disney seem to see romance, especially the enemy to lovers trope, as poison these days.

Yeah, I’m trying to think of the last time Disney did a romance that was based around original characters and not animated or comic book characters. I’m pretty sure it was Dead Men Tell No Tales and we got a two for one deal because they gave closure to Elizabeth/Will and had a happy ending for Carina/Henry. It says something that I’ve never been disappointed by a Pirates of the Caribbean film. Well, except regarding Norrington’s fate, but you can’t get everything.

Yes, and Jack got the Pearl back!

Disney used to be so full of optimism......you could always rely on them to make you feel good.
But ...I think they genuinely think that they were right, that SW ended on a high note, and that somehow makes it worse.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Yes, and Jack got the Pearl back!

Disney used to be so full of optimism......you could always rely on them to make you feel good.
But ...I think they genuinely think that they were right, that SW ended on a high note, and that somehow makes it worse.

I think they’ve stopped seeing value in romance because they’re convinced it’s anti-feminist. And you know, I went through a stage of thinking my unrealistic expectations of love were due to Disney, but at least they made me happy seeIng others fall in love. My issues in the romance department are only to be blamed on myself.

I cna't help but think they have the wrong idea of what women want. Why does being in love make you weak?

motherofpearl1 wrote:I cna't help but think they have the wrong idea of what women want. Why does being in love make you weak?

Good actual question. I have no idea.

I was listening to a podcast not so long ago about the sequels and especially TROS. They said that one of the problems of these movies is that there is no love in them. They thought that Finn&Rose will end up together but TROS destroyed it. Then there is a Reylo kiss but the creators confirmed it was a "kiss of gratitude" and there is no romance. So there is no love in the sequels at the end.

And thus, they are rendered empty, shallow and unsatisfying. No heart, no love or affection.

'Kiss of gratitude'....or translated into English:
"Our way of denying reylo and creating a heroine who needs no one but her own magnificent ego."

I'm not sure it's entirely it's TLJ's fault for people not understanding Reylo is a thing when they made out in TROS and people still didn't get it. The kiss of gratitude didn't become a thing, at least from any official source, until months later.

It’s definitely not just the fault of TLJ. I thought that the problem with acknowledging Rey’s feelings would get fixed in the next film, but we know how that went.

I think that Rian would have handled Reylo in TLJ differently if it was just up to him. It’s not just the DLF attitude to Reylo, I think that the vagueness and ambiguity partly happened because they wanted to keep things as open-ended as possible for the next writer, in the absence of any real plan.

californiagirl wrote:

@californiagirl
I suspect Daisy’s brain was thinking: what’s world between worlds?!
She’s the last person I would ask about some theory that actually requires being across canon to get it lol.

californiagirl wrote:
...Reylo confirmed again.

@californiagirl
I think you nailed it with the ‘again’!

Just my 2 cents worth here- my reaction to this? Old news!
The movie itself portrayed them as romantic, Rian’s publicity tour comment about how the hand scene is as close to a sex scene as Star Wars gets...said it all! ( oh hang on... was that Mark H who said that? Whatever..)  anyone still asking if Reylo was romantic at this point doesn’t want to see it. Or has pigeonholed romance as being one dimensional.
A relationship can be multidimensional - and include romance.

I think RJ did just fine with portraying their relationship, for the 2nd act of a 3 act story it was set up to be resolved and interesting in the 3rd act just fine. What screwed it up was what came next!!

One of the most disappointing aspects of how the saga ended was the unsatisfying portrayal of romance. I figured Reylo would be a resolution to the place for romantic love in the saga... which is needed to create new life, and for balance in the force... but no. We got Anakin’s obsessive ‘love’ for Padme, Padme’s tragic love for Anakin leading to her death at his hands. The Han and Leila romance ended up leading to more tragedy. And death... romantic love didn’t redeem anyone, it was familial love that won the day, and thanks to the loss of Carrie it was mainly down to fatherly love that anyone was saved... cos Leila’s hand in Ben’s redemption is still as confusing as all get out to me!
The saga leaves romantic love as second rate compared to familial love... even when you are supposedly choosing your own family. That final scene being Luke & Leia cooing over Rey, rather than Ben says so.
And friendship is also more valuable too thanks to the friendship gang!

In the overall saga romantic love was a fatal flaw...devalued by the Jedi order too... rather than viewed as a valuable, precious gift in my book.

Romantic love needed to be redeemed, and through Reylo would have been ideal. Even the Finn and Rose romance set up by Rian got tossed out in favour of the friendship gang.... or, asexual Jedi or something. Because Rey didn’t need romance, that would be a weakness right?

I don’t think any of this was intentional, but LFL were thoughtless and careless in the way they treated romance.

Gosh I hope I’m making some sense, but this all just seems really off to me!

In a nutshell, I think that someone somewhere has got the wrong idea about 'strong women'.

Apparently Rey falling in love with the man who...sigh...'abducted and assaulted' (haters' words, not mine) her is 'demeaning'.
Rey needing a family and someone who really, truly understands her is 'demeaning'.
Rey saving a broken young man from his shattered life is 'demeaning' - 'it isn't her job to save him' - again, haters' words, not mine.

In short, Rey showing compassion and understanding , feeling and humanity.....is demeaning.

So what we get is 'Saint Rey the Judgemental' and ultimately exactly the kind of sanctimonious self righteous prig so many people think is a shining example of 'strong womanhood' - yuk.

I don't know if anyone here has seen Christopher Nolan's Batman films but the character of Rachel Dawes was hated by viewers, both male and female, for being exactly this type of woman. And Disney or LF, or whatever, have turned their formerly interesting, sympathetic and identifiable leading lady into ...this.

They allowed Terrio to put his little fanfiction on film, Abrams to indulge Daisy and John because they wanted to work together at a massive cost to the storytelling, and finally indulged people like the poisonous Kylo haters on 'the forum I cannot mention' by insisting that there was no affection for Kylo from Rey - which only made her seem like a hateful person who took everything that was Ben Solo's and didn't even mourn him. They also disrespected Leia by showing her as a terrible mother who chose to train the woman who in all likelihood would end up killing her son when his fall could very easily have been prevented if she'd trained him herself.

The more I think of it, the more I see TROS as not just a poor, self indulgent piece of film making - but actually monstrous. It's very messages - a family rejecting their abused child to adopt someone else's, heroes erased and replaced by the villain's bloodline, thus achieving his eternal goal, people can only be 'good' if they remain 'virgo intactica', being a victim still means you must die to redeem yourself.....are pure poison.

What kind of example is this film to young children?

This is somewhat off topic, but is Disney really attempting to rehabilitate a puppy killer with the Cruella movie? I understood Maleficent, but I don’t understand why Disney is continuing this pattern of female villains being allowed to be three-dimensional while male ones aren’t.

Now this is interesting. would they do this if Cruella was a man?
If the genders were reversed...would people say Rey assaulted Ben? Or...Ben's role wasn't to save Rey?

It shows up the hypocracy of the whole thing doesn't it?

Honestly, I stopped to waste my thoughts, where everyone involved and responsible for this pile of sh*t obviously never wasted a sane thought for.

I´ve read about this yesterday. Another Disney movie I´m not interested in. Can´t they find someting new? And a Cruella prequel? Seriously?

It's hard to believe this is the Disney that gave us Beauty and the Beast, Pirates of the Caribbean and the Lion King. Even Simba and Nala had a romance.

This is soulless.

unicorn wrote:Honestly, I stopped to waste my thoughts, where everyone involved and responsible for this pile of sh*t obviously never wasted a sane thought for.

I´ve read about this yesterday. Another Disney movie I´m not interested in. Can´t they find someting new? And a Cruella prequel? Seriously?

I’m interested, but only if it’s more like a PG/PG-13 version of Joker and not Maleficent. I love Maleficent and it’s sequel, but I don’t want it hinted that a puppy killer is somehow sympathetic.

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's hard to believe this is the Disney that gave us Beauty and the Beast, Pirates of the Caribbean and the Lion King. Even Simba and Nala had a romance.

This is soulless.

Well, they would rather be politically correct than tell a good story.

karamelreylo wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's hard to believe this is the Disney that gave us Beauty and the Beast, Pirates of the Caribbean and the Lion King. Even Simba and Nala had a romance.

This is soulless.

Well, they would rather be politically correct than tell a good story.

@karamelreylo

And there's the rub.

There is such a big difference between equality and political correctness. I don't know where they have gotten this idea that women are superior to men, deserve more sympthy and more rights, but this isn't what women fought for back in the day, it's misogyny.

Saracene wrote:Rey and Ben splitting up at the end of TLJ fit very neatly into a conventional romantic arc, where the guy and the girl have a fight about two thirds into the story so that they can re-unite later. At the time I thought it was a natural progression for their relationship.

The big problem with Reylo in TLJ is that while Rian might have viewed it as romantic, the movie itself played it too coy and ambiguous, especially where Rey’s feelings were concerned. I mean, the very fact that he needs to confirm that yes Reylo was romantic is a good indication that it wasn’t clear enough in the film.

@Saracene

I think Rian hedged his bet.

I think TLJ...in fact the entire ST....suffered from studio interference.
Jason Frye said that he was 'told' to make Rey's feelings for Ben ambiguous at the end of the novel. Rian had to put the annoying flirty scene between Rey and Poe at the end of the film because Trevorrow wanted DameRey in episode IX. Yet Terrio was allowed free reign with his Twins fanfic in TROS, probably because it was the last film so anything goes. Same with Abrams, who was unfettered by Kasdan's superior writing.

We of course don't know this for sure, but Abrams might have also indulged Daisy and John, who wanted to work together, as we know he allowed Poe to live as Oscar asked him to. Hence the Trio. And I suspect the silly TLJ retcon was down to studio reaction to the haters. I do know Patti Jenkins walked off the set of The Dark World because of studio interference, although this could have been Marvel's fault rather than Disney's. Whatever, someone somewhere scuppered the possibility of a Kylo/Rey romance. Either the 'woke' brigade, Abrams and/or Terrio, or Disney/LF execs, what could have been SW's greatest romance and a story of the power of love was thrown away.

Sadly they also lost the opportunity to end the Skywalker saga with a fresh new direction for SW - the Jedi and the Sith, both extremes of the Force, coming together as a 'grey' order and finally bringing about the true balance between light and dark as represented by Rey and Kylo. Thus finally an end to the eternal conflict. But they didn't. Rey is not 'the balance', she's a tired old fashioned White Jedi and one day a Dark sider will 'rise to meet her'. Thus the eternal conflict goes on and on.
I'm done with them, I'm sorry to say. I have zero interest in the adventures of Finn, Poe and Rey; TROS made me realise that as by the end of the film I was sick of the sight of them, unlike ROTJ, where I happily would have liked to see more of the original trio. I'm just sorry I feel madly in love with the Ben/Kylo character. The only good thing I take personally from the ST is that it introduced me to the terrific Adam Driver, whose future work I await with interest.
SW for me is over, I leave future projects to those on the forum I can't mention, who are very excited at the prospect of more Trio. And of course Finn fans, who according to Ian McDiarmid are in for a treat with new material coming out soon. For me the Skywalkers/Solos WERE SW. My love for the franchise has died with them, but it will survive and probably flourish without me.

@motherofpearl1

That's pretty much how I feel as well.  I have very little interest in Star Wars anymore.  It is truly incredible how they absolutely ruined not just the Sequel Trilogy, but the entire saga as a whole with TROS.  Especially after having gotten off to such a strong start.  It really boggles my mind.  I would love to know what actually happened, but we'll probably never know the whole story, or if we do, it will probably be many years down the road.

And I have no interest in the Faux Trio, either.  The way they shoved them together, which to me was obviously done to try to appease the "real fans" and recapture the magic of Han, Luke, and Leia, was just so forced and artificial.  It was so obvious what they were trying to do and it just didn't work.  The only way I might have any interest in their future adventures is if they brought Ben back to join them.

TROS was just such an awful movie.

BTW, where did you hear that Ian McDiarmid said that Finn fans are in for a treat?  Was this a recent interview?  I don't remember hearing about it.  But then I'm kind of out of the loop when it comes to a lot of Star Wars stuff these days.